[Joint House and Senate Hearing, 111 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
111th Congress Printed for the use of the
2d Session Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe
_________________________________________________________________________
MORNING DISCUSSION: ROUNDTABLE ON MINORITIES IN FRANCE
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
SEPTEMBER 15, 2010
Briefing of the
Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe
_________________________________________________________________________
Washington: 2014
Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe
234 Ford House Office Building
Washington, DC 20515
202-225-1901
[email protected]
http://www.csce.gov
Legislative Branch Commissioners
HOUSE SENATE
ALCEE L. HASTINGS, Florida, BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland,
Co-Chairman Chairman
EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts CHRISTOPHER J. DODD, Connecticut
LOUISE McINTOSH SLAUGHTER, SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island
New York TOM UDALL, New Mexico
MIKE McINTYRE, North Carolina JEANNE SHAHEEN, New Hampshire
G.K. BUTTERFIELD, North Carolina SAM BROWNBACK, Kansas
CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey SAXBY CHAMBLISS, Georgia
ROBERT B. ADERHOLT, Alabama RICHARD BURR, North Carolina
JOSEPH R. PITTS, Pennsylvania ROBERT F. WICKER, Mississippi
DARRELL E. ISSA, California
Executive Branch Commissioners
MICHAEL H. POSNER, DEPARTMENT OF STATE
ALEXANDER VERSHBOW, DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE
MICHAEL C. CAMUN~ EZ, DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE
ABOUT THE ORGANIZATION FOR SECURITY AND COOPERATION IN EUROPE
The Helsinki process, formally titled the Conference on Security
and Cooperation in Europe, traces its origin to the signing of the
Helsinki Final Act in Finland on August 1, 1975, by the leaders of 33
European countries, the United States and Canada. As of January 1,
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and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE). The membership of the OSCE has
expanded to 56 participating States, reflecting the breakup of the
Soviet Union, Czechoslovakia, and Yugoslavia.
The OSCE Secretariat is in Vienna, Austria, where weekly meetings
of the participating States' permanent representatives are held. In
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locations. Periodic consultations are held among Senior Officials,
Ministers and Heads of State or Government.
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fields of military security, economic and environmental cooperation,
and human rights and humanitarian concerns, the Organization is
primarily focused on initiatives designed to prevent, manage and
resolve conflict within and among the participating States. The
Organization deploys numerous missions and field activities located in
Southeastern and Eastern Europe, the Caucasus, and Central Asia. The
website of the OSCE is: .
ABOUT THE COMMISSION ON SECURITY AND COOPERATION IN EUROPE
The Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe, also known as
the Helsinki Commission, is a U.S. Government agency created in 1976 to
monitor and encourage compliance by the participating States with their
OSCE commitments, with a particular emphasis on human rights.
The Commission consists of nine members from the United States
Senate, nine members from the House of Representatives, and one member
each from the Departments of State, Defense and Commerce. The positions
of Chair and Co-Chair rotate between the Senate and House every two
years, when a new Congress convenes. A professional staff assists the
Commissioners in their work.
In fulfilling its mandate, the Commission gathers and disseminates
relevant information to the U.S. Congress and the public by convening
hearings, issuing reports that reflect the views of Members of the
Commission and/or its staff, and providing details about the activities
of the Helsinki process and developments in OSCE participating States.
The Commission also contributes to the formulation and execution of
U.S. policy regarding the OSCE, including through Member and staff
participation on U.S. Delegations to OSCE meetings. Members of the
Commission have regular contact with parliamentarians, government
officials, representatives of non-governmental organizations, and
private individuals from participating States. The website of the
Commission is: .
MORNING DISCUSSION: ROUNDTABLE ON MINORITIES IN FRANCE
September 15, 2010
PARTICIPANTS
Page
Dr. Mischa Thompson, Policy Advisor, Commission on Security and
Cooperation in Europe.................................................1
Rene Lake, Ltl Strategies, U.S........................................2
Alain Dolium, 2010 Regional Candidate, the Democratic Movement,
France................................................................3
Rokhaya Diallo, President, Les Indivisibles, France...................3
Khalid Hamdani, Director, Institute for Ethics and Diversity,
France................................................................5
Jackie Celestin-Andre, Director, Corporate Diversity, L'Oreal
France................................................................6
His Excellency Pierre Vimont, Ambassador of France to the United
States...............................................................18
MEMBER
Hon. Diane E. Watson, a Representative in Congress from the State
of California........................................................10
MORNING DISCUSSION: ROUNDTABLE ON MINORITIES IN FRANCE
----------
SEPTEMBER 15, 2010
Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe
Washington, DC
The briefing was held at 11 a.m. in the South Congressional Room of
the Capitol Visitors Center, Washington, DC, Dr. Mischa Thompson,
Policy Advisor, Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe,
moderating.
Panelists present: Dr. Mischa Thompson, Policy Advisor, Commission
on Security and Cooperation in Europe; Rene Lake, Ltl Strategies, U.S.;
Alain Dolium, 2010 Regional Candidate, the Democratic Movement, France;
Rokhaya Diallo, President, Les Indivisibles, France; Khalid Hamdani,
Director, Institute for Ethics and Diversity, France; Jackie Celestin-
Andre, Director, Corporate Diversity, L'Oreal France; and His
Excellency Pierre Vimont, Ambassador of France to the United States.
Member present: Hon. Diane E. Watson, a Representative in Congress
from the State of California.
Dr. Thompson. Hello. I'm Dr. Mischa Thompson with the U.S. Helsinki
Commission and I'd just like to relay my apologies from Congressman
Hastings, the Co-Chairman of the Commission. Unfortunately, he's ill
today and he will not be able to join us. I'm going to read his
prepared remarks and then we're going to go ahead and begin the
roundtable discussion.
One of the first things is just for the mic, you need to push the
button and the light will come on. The red light will come on. In terms
of the interpretation, on channel 2 there is English and on channel 3
there is French.
And these, again, are the remarks from Co-Chairman Hastings:
``Good morning. Welcome to this Commission discussion on minorities
in France. I understand that a number of you have flown a long way to
be with us--to be here with us today. And I'm pleased that you are
here, especially the members of the European Diversity Caucus. I would
also like to thank Ambassador Vimont for joining us here today as well
from the French Embassy.
And as many of you may know, the Commission has long followed the
situation of minorities in the 56 North American and European countries
that make up the region of the Organization for Security and
Cooperation in Europe, or, the OSCE.
Increasingly, concerns around immigration, terrorism and national
identity have elevated racial and ethnic minorities to the center of
national debates in many OSCE countries. Recent events such as the
opposition of the Ground Zero mosque, threats to burn the Quran and
immigration laws adopted in Arizona and elsewhere are examples of how
these issues have been pushed to the forefront in this very country.
Conversely, Roma expulsion, banning face veils and promises to
deport 30,000 illegal immigrants in addition to other proposed changes
to immigration laws are taking place in France.
While I perceive such events in both situations as wrongheaded
political maneuvers, in particular in the case of the discriminatory
policy of targeting Roma for expulsions, I would argue that there is a
danger to politicians, the media and the public at large if we focus
only on these issues.
Minority communities are part of the larger fabric of society and
we are all put at risk when those who seek to divide for political and
other gain are allowed to define conversations regarding our
communities.
Both of our countries are host to vibrant racially, ethnically and
religiously diverse minority communities that have made great
contributions to our societies. Despite discrimination and continuing
inequities, we have seen members of these communities rise to
leadership roles in our societies. I am pleased that we have so many
prominent guests here today who have done so in France.
As we discuss the situation of minorities in France today, we
should remember to broaden our focus beyond recent negative
developments to include some of the positives and how best to learn
from both situations.
I am curious to hear how the French public has responded to the
Roma policies but also what the status of President Sarkozy's plan for
the suburbs is, following my visit to such a community in 2009, in
terms of combating extremism or banning face veils or focusing on
increased education and employment opportunities for Muslim and other
minority youth, the solution.
Last, is there really a global ``Obama effect'' that has brought
more minorities into politics in France and elsewhere in the world?
I hope that today's discussion will touch on some of these points
and I look forward to the answers. I will now turn things over to Mr.
Rene Lake, who will be moderating today's session. Mr. Lake?
Mr. Lake. Thank you very much, Mischa. I want to remind everybody
that the English channel is channel 2 and the French channel is channel
3.
So we're going to start immediately the discussion. I think it's
going to be a very lively and a very interesting one, considering the
actual situation in Europe as some of you may now. In fact, yesterday,
the European Union has decided to engage into a legal action against
the French Government on the issue of the Roma expulsion. So the
Ambassador of France will be talking to us in about an hour. So he will
be here on 12:10, so we will have a 20-minute conversation with him. I
think it's going to be really interesting. And so we have basically an
hour to engage in a conversation here among the panelists.
So I will suggest that Alain Dolium, who is a leader of the
Francois Bayrou party's MoDem to maybe start the discussion and tell us
what the situation of minorities in France--especially in the public
sector, as Alain was himself a candidate for the Presidency of Ile-de-
France recently, and it will be interesting to have his perspective.
Alain, please.
Mr. Dolium. Thank you, thank you for the introduction. I'm going to
speak in French to be precise and to keep the timing.
[Note.--The following remarks are delivered via translator.]
Mr. Dolium. (Audio interference)--not to place these people into
situations where they would only base it on their social ethnic origin
or create the cliche that will improve their profile. The young people
from the minorities are competent on issues much more than diversity or
the neighborhoods. They're also capable talking about economic issues,
budgetary issues, public health or environment. To be Black does not
necessarily mean that you are a good minister for the sports.
Finally, to give a new impetus, democracy must favor the emergence
of a local democracy, the only one which is capable of involving a
greater number of citizens, regardless of their ethnic or racial group.
And the third key problem to which French society is confronted, in
my view, is the definition and the implementation of a harmonious
pension policy which is solidarity amongst the generations. This
pension policy will only succeed if it is accompanied by a political
economy policy that can create jobs.
We must favor the creation of small businesses by creating a
special French-style small-business act. We have a need for
entrepreneurial capitalism. We need to have entrepreneurs who come out
of these minority ethnic groups. They have to have access to funding
for their startup projects in the developmental phase and this is much
more complicated for them than for other entrepreneurs. These
entrepreneurs can find investors here in the United States and they
understand more than anyone else the value of a project before
considering the pedigree of an entrepreneur.
Finally, creating a freely French-style small-business act will
allow these companies to have--to public contract because often times,
these companies are poorly located and these small businesses, whose
manager often times has a foreign-sound name.
These three problems to which the French country is confronted have
much of the solutions among most of the work force of the country.
Without any more discrimination, multiculturalism is an underexploited
asset. And this profile--these people represent as much as the other
French, the future of our country.
Our country is, by essence, indivisible, whereas we are divided by
a destructive class whose only ambition is oftentimes to be able to
keep power and to do it with an unshared manner. Thank you very much.
[Applause.]
Mr. Lake. Thank you very much, Alain Dolium. Now, we're going to
ask Rokhaya Diallo, who is the head of an organization who uses humor
to deconstruct ethno-racial prejudice to tell us about her perspective
on the debate on the situation of minorities, the situation of the
issues of diversity in France.
Rokhaya?
Mr. Diallo. Good morning, everyone. Thank you. I will try to make
my presentation in English. Please excuse me for my English--
[laughter]--in advance.
So I am the President of a French organization called Les
Indivisibles, whose aim is to deconstruct ethno-racial prejudices
through the use of humor and irony. Our organization seeks to address,
in particular, those prejudices and stereotypes that devalue French
identity for certain citizens for reason of their phenotype, their
name, their origin, either real or imagined religious affiliation. The
name of the association refers to the first article of the French
Constitution, according to which the French Republic is
``indivisible.''
In the context of the European Union, the creation of Les
Indivisibles was inspired by a German organization--sorry--[laughter].
So the creation of the organization was inspired by a German
organization called Der Braune Mob, which means The Brown Mobilization,
whose objective was to make obvious the fact that one could be at the
same time Black and German.
So is it in France. So we aspire to deconstruct the automatic
association that systematically links phenotypes to nationality and
therefore presupposes that a non-White person cannot be a real French
one.
We have drafted a charter that has been made available for you
outside--and also on our Web site--whose first articles declare that
being French is not a question of appearance; that being French is not
something that one can see. And therefore, is not, for example,
indicated by skin color or phenotype.
Today, in 2010, France seems to conceive of itself as a country
whose inhabitants have White skins and are of Judeo-Christian
background. White French are commonly referred as ``French stock,''
suggesting the idea of a purity of French national origin. Those who do
not correspond to this racialized archetype are considered as
foreigners or ``paper French,'' which constitutes a major difference
from the United States, where skin color does not lead to an automatic
supposition of foreign otherness.
So the work of Les Indivisibles goes well beyond a regular media
watch. Last year, for example, for the first time, we organized the Y'a
Bon Awards, a humoristic parody of the Academy Awards, that, with a
banana skin on the guise of a trophy, honored those public
personalities such as politicians, journalists and artists who authored
the most racist remarks. [Laughter.]
So the name of the ceremony was inspired by the advertisement for a
popular breakfast drink called Banania. The ads are notoriously racist
and well-known in France and stick with the racialism--racialized,
sorry, symbolism from the colonial age.
The phrase ``y'a bon'' is a pejorative attempt to reflect the Black
dialect of colonial subjects, embodied by the famous Tirailleurs
Senegalais, who still graces the product's cover who could not manage
to say ``c'est bon,'' like we say in good French. [Laughter.] I'm sure
it will be of no surprise for you that no one of the winners came to
get his trophy--their trophy. [Laughter.]
The goal of Les Indivisibles is to fight against the trivialization
of prejudice that are largely propagated and maintained by the media
and public figures whose power inflect harm and disseminate disaccord
toward French people. This power is great, given the considerable
public exposure.
We aspire to confront the media and public figures with their
responsibility associated with such power. So we point out the main
sentences pronounced especially by our actual government by its
specific politics against Roma people and people from Muslim
background. So thank you for listening to me. [Applause.]
Mr. Lake. Thank you, Rokhaya. Y'a bon de--(in French)--[laughter.]
So now I'm going to give the floor to Khalid Hamdani who is going to
maybe take a couple of seconds to tell us about his own background and
the type of work he does in France and maybe have a few remarks on the
debate.
Mr. Hamdani. Thank you. First of all, let me thank you, all of you,
for your kind invitation. And I'm going to speak maybe in between my
friends Rokhaya and Alain. I start in English and I switch to French
very quickly, I think. [Laughter.] And I apologize, of course, for my
very low command of English.
The problematic of the status of minorities and in society, and I
had a little experience of this situation by my grand academic
background and my job in my institute, and also I had 7 years political
experience. But the status of minorities I think in the long term of
history is linked to nations and civilizations and their own
experience.
But what we are talking about today, what we are interested by or
involved in, is a dilemma, in fact. It's a dilemma of democratic
nations and societies. The dilemma is this fragile equilibrium between
liberty and equality. And how a democratic country can or could or
should organize a fair and equitable equality, of course, for all the
citizens?
Tocqueville, I think, spoke about that a long time ago--but in the
formal and in the former democracy, the legal system is democratic, of
course, but in fact, on the ground, it was and it's still--in France,
of course, it's still, and in Europe in general, a system of
domination: the domination of women, the domination of ethnic
minorities. Well, all these groups are dominated.
And today, in the democratic societies of Canada, France or Germany
or Great Britain, the question is how to be equal effectively without
this existence of a kind of symbolic social hierarchy. The symbolic
social hierarchy, I think, and I--(in French)--is the real problem in
my opinion, I mean, the most difficult problem to solve because in the
face of this challenge, European or American responses are definitely
different according to their social frameworks of their societies--the
frameworks of their society.
In France, the concept--and Rokhaya said that--of minorities or
communities do not exist in the domestic political thought, in the
legal system. This is a myth. Oh, yes, it's a beautiful myth but it's a
myth, indeed, even if it's a French Republican myth, but it's a myth!
The reality is so different. The reality that every French can see
in the street is that the minority exists significantly and the
minority and the communities are there but we deny their existence.
They exist without existing in the symbolic social hierarchies, they
don't exist in the domestic political thought and in the legal system.
So subsequently, there is no public policy for minorities. And so the
question of minorities is reduced to a social-welfare issue. It's not a
political issue.
So far, it's not a political issue. The minorities could not have
the power--political power--voice, and could not share it. There is a
huge discrepancy between what is safe and what is expected, and this
discrepancy is the most important problem. And I'm afraid I'm obliged
in the few seconds I have to switch now in French. This discrepancy is
so awful that it obliges me to switch. [Laughter.]
[Note.--The following remarks are delivered via translator.]
Mr. Hamdani. The mode of access to the political class and the mode
of reproduction excludes minority by their own design. The social,
economic and cultural obstacles from a statistical pinpoint that
encounters every person to reach the political level, and there are
more symbolic obstacles. These are psychological obstacles and others.
There's a real problem.
People who come from ethnic or racial minorities are more and more
people who come from poor backgrounds. And they are perceived as being
not members of the social corpus and also of the national fabric. And
what the French political leaders urge to the minorities that we
represent, and Alain knows it very well--you come from a more modest
background, Madame--they say, you must erase or even deny all of your
differences between you are in the Republican universality.
But every time you try to run for office or each time you're
endorsed for office, they are told, yes, but your differences will
cause us to lose these elections. So we have consistently this
contradicting urging which means that the three challenges that Alain
mentioned, to which I subscribe, we'd have to have a complete overhaul
of the educational system. We have to do that in order to inoculate
these differences from the very beginning for the long term. The media
system has to be completely overhauled to create an imagination of
diversity and not just ad hoc, on-the-ground actions.
And we must target to build a French-style patriotism. Of course,
it has to be very beautiful and very aesthetic, of course. A French-
style patriotism in which you have local rooting because we have to
acknowledge all of our regions: burgundy--(in French)--or cinnamon.
We have to enshrine all of these regions, truly rooted in the local
level; accept our history--the good, the bad and the ugly. We must be
open toward Europe, which is our border that has to be constructed, and
we have to be open to the rest of the world for political, moral and
environmental issues. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Mr. Lake. Thank you very much, Khalid Hamdani, for this
intervention and especially your question on institutional challenges
we have in France. I'm sure that a lot of people would like to maybe
ask you a question or comment on some of your statement.
So now I'm going to give the floor to Jackie Celestin-Andre who is
going to give us, I guess, a private-sector perspective on the issue.
Ms. Celestin-Andre. Yeah. Good morning. My name is Jackie Celestin-
Andre I'm Diversity Director for the L'Oreal Group. I will speak to you
entirely in English because I'm an American living in France.
[Laughter.] So I won't switch on you. I may though. Not knowing it,
though.
So thank you, again, for this opportunity for us to talk about
L'Oreal Diversity's policy as it relates to creating an inclusive
environment for all diversities in France. So I'm here, as Rene
mentioned, to give a private-sector example of how we are managing
diversities and all the issues we have in France.
So first, to start, L'Oreal as a company has built its identity
around strong values. Among them, diversity is a strategic asset for
the group in terms of creativity, innovation and performance. As we are
a cosmetics company, the No. 1--I'm not bragging--company in the beauty
industry in the world, we understand that beauty and diversity go hand
in hand.
Through various engagements, such as the group's code of business
ethics, signing the global compact in 2003, L'Oreal has formalized its
commitment in favor of nondiscrimination. In 2004, L'Oreal was one of
the first companies in France to sign the diversity charter in France.
For L'Oreal, signing the diversity charter was important and coherent
with the group's values. It was another impetus for us to continue to
challenge ourselves to be an active participant in creating a climate
of inclusion and equal opportunities in three areas: within the work
force in the company, within the workplace in the company and outside,
and especially in the marketplace in France.
So after signing the charter--we just didn't want to sign another
charter just to sign a charter--a string of events took place, starting
with at corporate headquarters in France, of which setting up a
diversity team with dedicated members with resources, and developing a
policy that covers six diversity areas--and I would show this to you
but I have no screen.
So the areas include nationality, ethnic and cultural backgrounds;
social background; gender; disability; and age. So with those seven
criteria, of which ethnic and social diversity is one of our core areas
that we're working on. It's important to note also that our North
American division of L'Oreal in New York started earlier than we did in
managing diversity with an office in New York, headed by the Vice
President in charge of diversity.
So coming back to L'Oreal France, and the focus of this roundtable
is minorities in France, I'll top-line just a few initiatives that
L'Oreal has implemented in France. And it's important for us also, in
my discussion to note when I say--when we talk about ``visible
minorities'' in France, include, for example, populations from sub-
Sahara and North Africans, Indians, Chinese and, increasingly, other
European, Eastern European countries, who are suffering vastly from
discrimination.
So as we all know, in the United States and other parts of the
world, discrimination is perceived to be the single most important
integration barrier to the work force. And in France, to counter this,
L'Oreal has developed or participated in a number of internal-external
initiatives with public and private stakeholders to promote equal
opportunities in the workplace, work force and in the marketplace.
Unfortunately, I don't have enough time to go through all our
initiatives, so I'll share a few of them. So in the work force at
L'Oreal team diversity, a mixture of origins and backgrounds and
talents are the keys to our company's success. Of course, we are a
company, so we're looking for performance above all.
Diversity at all levels in the organization promote a higher level
of creativity and a deeper understanding of our consumers. So when it
comes, for example, to recruitment, L'Oreal has identified major
avenues for identifying talent. Diversification of the group's
recruitment challenges by setting up partnerships with associations
targeted to different minority groups. Creating or participating in the
recruitment fairs also dedicated to minority candidates who experience
difficulties in a job market. And also, by--and it's really key--also
by working and raising awareness of our partner schools so that they,
themselves, develop a social and cultural mix amongst their students,
providing the workplace with talents from different communities.
For example, L'Oreal joining the government plans called the Plan
for Banlieus--a committed group to facilitating access to employment
from candidates coming from underprivileged neighborhoods. And most of
them are what we call visible minorities.
And so today, the group has approximately 9 percent of the new
hires of young people under 26 coming from these areas. So we are
increasingly including with the work force in France more and more
ethnic communities.
Another example is working to promote equal opportunity in
education. Education is a key to success in any society and it helps to
overcome barriers that minorities face. Therefore, the group invests in
education at different levels--high-school level, college, the post-
grad levels--with very basic projects like scholarships and mentorship
programs, creating a bridge between the private and the educational
system, which is very, very new for France, unlike in the United
States, where we have that type of involvement for a long time.
We've also made our application process much more objective,
recognizing that, as a group, we had our own house cleaning to do to
make sure that we are not inadvertently discriminating in our
application process. And we are currently testing anonymous resumes,
which remove all identity from--to identify the candidate's origins.
We're testing that to see if that's another type of action that we can
use to prevent discrimination during the work force.
In regards to the workplace, for companies like L'Oreal,
discriminatory attitudes, behaviors, the lack of awareness and of
diversity issues are some of the biggest challenges for us to succeed.
We have to make sure that our employees understand what diversity is
and we need to be able to change attitudes and behaviors. To help us
with this, since 2006, we've developed a specific diversity-training
program aimed at about 8,000 managers in Europe, in 32 countries.
By the end of 2009, over 6,000 managers have done this training in
Europe, of which 3,500 managers have done the training in France at all
levels of management from the CEO down to product managers, for example
in marketing. The next phase involves training the balance of employees
in France that totals about 14,000 people. It's no small feat, but we
believe it's necessary because changing behaviors of our employees is
going to be a key factor of success to making diversity work for
L'Oreal as a company.
My time is up, OK--[laughter]--one last thing. We are fostering--
[laughter]--one last thing, though, we are fostering a climate of
social inclusion of minorities in France through imagery. It was
mentioned earlier that advertising is key, the media is key. So we are
making a point of using models in our advertising that reflect the
diversity of beauty.
L'Oreal, with brands like L'Oreal Paris and Maybelline, and
Garnier, Lancome, Softsheen-Carson, to name a few, help us to project
imagery of minorities in France--we've fed the social diversity in
France. We are not just using White models, but also Black, North
African, Indian and Asian models in France.
So in conclusion--[laughter]--there is a lot we need to do to
change, to learn in regards of managing diversities. We are continually
challenging ourselves, checking our progress. We've developed the first
diversity progress report. I will be able to list some examples for you
that show where we--what we've done and where we are. And we have a lot
more work to do. But we believe we are heading in the right direction.
And for that, I thank you for your attention. [Applause.]
Mr. Lake. Thank you very much, Jackie. Now, to close this first
round of intervention from our panelists, I'm going to give the floor
to Kag Sanoussi. And I think it's good that you are finishing this
panel because you are going to be the common point between the public
sector, the activities of community, government, people in the private
sector as he is responsible of the charte de la diversite, which was
just referred to as by Jackie a few minutes ago. So it will be
interesting to tell us a little about this public-private partnership.
You guys upgraded to the charte de la diversite--and maybe make a few
remarks.
[Note.--The following remarks are delivered via translator.]
Mr. Sanoussi. Thank you for giving me the floor and thank you so
much for this invitation. I am going to be speaking French today.
Indeed, the charter for diversity in France is the first charter within
Europe which constitutes a commitment for companies. And through this,
companies commit themselves to no longer discriminating.
There is an awareness of discrimination and thus this commitment
aims to set in place various policies. The charter for diversity is
implemented by the companies as well as by the public policies. This is
something that is managed with the various public and private
structures. And our aim is simple, and this is what I'm going to talk
about.
Indeed, in France, there are two perspectives: Either the glass is
half empty or it's half full. And a great author once said that we tend
to make our difficulties greater than they are and our liberties
smaller than they are. So many things are not going well, but we do
have 3,000 companies that are committed to doing something. Indeed, the
fight against discrimination and promoting diversity is something that
is part of management. We can't just say it's going to happen.
Indeed, there are stereotypes that block things. There are certain
representations that go all the way back to slavery. And they are often
linked to very trivial events. You know, for example, you might not
like a given person. And then you will just build your representation
on that person and you will apply it to all other people. Thus, the
3,000 companies in France that are committed to this charter, including
L'Oreal, have started training their employees.
Indeed, to fight against discrimination and in order to promote
diversity, you need to know what you're talking about. A surgeon is not
a moderator and a dancer is not a mountain climber. You need to know--
you need to call a spade a spade and know what you're talking about.
And so here in France among our signing companies--well, we have
about 70 companies that are commended. And they have already started
working on their management process. How do we recruit employees? How
can we ensure that when I'm recruiting somebody I'm simply focusing on
their values and not on other factors?
And so in France, this momentum has started. And we want to ensure
that people like Alain, Rokhaya or Khalid will be in the field. And we
need to support them via the companies, whether these companies are
private or public. And they need to incorporate the notion that
including diversity is not something you're doing just because it's
nice. You know, we need to really understand what's happening.
And we need to--we must not reject others. And by not rejecting
others, that means that we accept ourselves. And in order to do this,
we need to ensure that we are walking together hand in hand in order to
create a unified momentum and show the way to others. And that's what's
very important.
I'd like to conclude by calling upon you to exercise caution,
whether it's in France or in the United States. We need to have these
points of caution. And by that, I mean our own individual
responsibility.
We often tend to say, oh yeah, this needs to be done; that needs to
be done. And so you may say, oh, the state needs to do this; the NGOs
need to do this. Or the NGOs say, hey, the company needs to do that.
The minorities say, oh, the Whites have to change. The Asians are going
to say, no, the Blacks need to change. The Arabs are going to say, no,
somebody else needs to do it.
Let's face up to it. We all have our own responsible--individual
responsibilities. Individualism is important. You know, what are we
going to do here? We have been talking about diversity. What are we
going to do afterwards?
We say it's bad to discriminate against others. But then we're
amongst ourselves, you know, guys for example talk about--have very
macho statements about women. Or sometimes we say bad things about
homosexuals. And we really need to look at ourselves. We need to really
focus on our own commitment within the societal issue.
Another point of caution: We need to say things correctly. In
France we tend to perhaps disguise people. Rather than saying a Black
person, we say a colored person. Perhaps in the United States, you
don't say colored. In France, saying a colored person has zero meaning.
You know, a Black man is a Black man and that should not be an insult.
And a homosexual is a homosexual. That is not an insult. And we need to
really incorporate these notions when we are talking about diversity.
Last point of caution, in my opinion, is the issue of selective
forgetfulness. Of course, you know, we try to recruit people who look
like us. You know, you come from a certain university and so you tend
to focus on people who come from that same university. And so if I see
French people, for example, sometimes I'm going to head toward them.
And so selective forgetfulness is something we need to be aware of.
We need to remember this notion of representation. You know, we may be
drawn to somebody, but that's not because--that's not a reason to
recruit that person. You need to recruit people based on their skills.
You need to open up doors.
So those are just a few words to talk about the charter for
diversity in France. Our aim is so that together--and ``together'' is
the key word--we need to ensure that our society can be something that
we are proud to leave to our children. [Applause.]
Mr. Lake. Thank you very much, Kag Sanoussi, for the intervention.
So as I had mentioned at the beginning of this discussion, the
Ambassador of France is here. He did join us when we started this
conversation, Ambassador Pierre Vimont. He will be speaking in about 20
or 25 minutes. But of course, if you want, he is welcome to also answer
some of the questions and interact with some of the people in the--(in
French)--if some people have some specific question to him.
[Off-side conversation.]
Mr. Lake. OK. So we have a surprise guest. [Laughter.] So I'm going
to turn the mic to Mischa and she's going to tell us what the--who is
the surprise guest and what is going to happen now.
Ms. Watson. Good morning.
[Chorus of, ``Good morning.'']
Ms. Watson. I could not help but to step inside the room. I am
Congresswoman Diane Watson, a former teacher way back in my other life,
and I taught school in France. [Applause.] So as I was coming--I think
many of you know that this is the week that the Congressional Black
Caucus holds its forums and then on Saturday night we have a major
dinner.
And so right now, we are in the Congressional Auditorium talking
about our mission and how we can move from poverty into prosperity. And
so it's very interesting--listen, I was trying to pick up a few words
here and there. It was way back in the year 19--[laughter]--that I was
there in France as an elementary-school teacher and I wanted to see how
much of the French I could still remember. I got every 10th word.
[Laughter.]
But I want to say to you, I think it's really essential that we
discuss this whole issue of race. And I found full acceptance when I
was in France as long as I did not criticize what was French.
[Laughter.] I found France to be the most nationalistic nation I had
been in. So my friends, who were not minorities; they were the majority
party. They would come in and look around and might say something that
wasn't quite complimentary. And I would have to say, if you want to be
put out of this place, change your conversation.
But we see France as a very strong ally, accepting of people from
all over the world. But in this country, we need to have that
discussion. And so to have the Commission raise the issue of France and
race and those that go there and live there, I think, is essential. We
should model ourselves off of the Helsinki Commission and have a
discussion in America about race. It is that time.
And I want to say we just had a speaker and it was the Secretary of
Agriculture. And you remember the Shirley Sherrod incident. Well,
that's going to turn out to be a benefit because many of the poor
farmers in the southern part of our country never got their 40 acres
and a mule. And as we do the appropriations out to various departments,
we have failed to compensate those that use slave labor to produce the
products and the produce that America most desperately needs.
So thank you, Helsinki Commission; thank you, those who are
witnesses. I want to say to the Ambassador from France, thank you for
being here and acting as a model for us here in America because we are
still a young nation and we have not perfected democracy as yet. We are
working on it. And we are so pleased that America elected someone who
is African-American. So this is a very timely discussion you're having,
and really teach us how to perfect our democracy. Thank you for coming
here. [Applause.]
Mr. Lake. Thank you very much, Congresswoman Diane Watson. They
were suggesting earlier, so we are going to open the floor to all the
participants. And whoever wants to make a comment or maybe ask a
question to a specific panelist or even, maybe, to the Ambassador of
France, please do so.
There is a handheld mic somewhere around here. If you are sitting
in a place where you don't have access to a mic, just raise your hand
and we can give you a mic. So we are going to start--you want to--
please, I suggest that you tell us your name and introduce yourself
very quickly before asking your questions or making your comments.
Ms. Givens. Yes, I'm Terri Givens. I'm a Professor at the
University of Texas at Austin and I have been studying these issues in
France for many years. Most recently, I have been in France studying
the issue of discrimination and I'm wondering, what is the current
perception of anti-discrimination policy?
I know that HALDE seemed to be having some successes, the equality
body in France, but was going to be pressured to become part of the
Defender of Rights by the--I know it was passed in the assembly and
it's being considered in the Senate. So I was wondering what the--
first, the perceptions and then what the situation is with the equality
body.
Mr. Lake. Anybody want to take on that question? Khalid?
Mr. Hamdani. OK.
Mr. Lake. OK, please go ahead.
[Note.--The following remarks are delivered via translator.]
Mr. Hamdani. Well, there are several distinctions to make. So the
preamble to the French Constitution is extremely clear concerning the
notion--the principle of nondiscrimination and the positive treatment.
And that is clear and there is absolutely no ambiguity in terms of
France's position.
We also have the law of 1992 from Plevin--a resistant--regarding
penalties when somebody commits discrimination. And this is a penal
fault. So we need to distinguish the evolution from the European
framework at the 1997--and the Amsterdam treaty. And there is also all
the other modifications that have occurred thanks to the directives,
and so the legal framework, the regulatory framework, and of course,
French public law is very important.
So the French legal framework, in fact, perhaps, overprotects real
or supposed victims. That being said, we have this extraordinary
framework which looks at civil and penal and public rights. But after
that, we have reality in terms of the effective application of these
laws and of the effective sanctions. And here, we have a huge gap, a
huge discrepancy, and a lack of repression against discrimination in
France.
And of course, there has been the creation of a higher authority
against discrimination. And this is something that was implemented via
European directives. And so the most symbolic is, of course, the
British one. However, what you need to keep in mind is that the French
framework exists in theory; however, it is impeded by mentalities. And
so there is a huge gap between the law and the application of the law.
And in fact, unfortunately, there are no radars that can really catch
people who are committing discrimination fraud. [Applause.]
[Note.--The following remarks are delivered via translator.]
Ms. Diallo. I would like to add something to that. And in fact, we
have discrimination against certain people. But we talk about the way
people talk, and in terms of that, regulations in France are not very
effective. In fact, our minister of the interior was penalized by a
judge for uttering discriminatory remarks. Yet he has maintained his
post, and yet, he was determined by the courts to have uttered
discriminatory words. And so I think in France we really need to
address this issue and this discrepancy in terms of the treatment.
Mr. Lake. Comments on this--on the answer you got? Or any other
questions? I see some hands there. I don't know if you could have a
mic.
[Note.--The following remarks are delivered via translator.]
Questioner. Hello, I have a question for Jackie Celestin-Andre.
Earlier, you mentioned that L'Oreal was testing out an anonymous resume
process. And I'd like to know whether you think this procedure is
effective. In fact, as all the speakers said, it's a very deep-seated
problem related to economic and political conservatism.
And so I'd like to know whether this anonymous resume is an
effective procedure because all you're--what you're really doing is
just delaying the moment when the job applicant will have an interview,
a face-to-face interview. And so if those discriminations still exist
then the answer will--it will continue.
Mr. Lake. The same victim may want to take it. [Laughter.]
Ms. Celestin-Andre. [Laughter.] OK.
Questioner. Yeah, just a two-finger on this. I was curious--I mean,
thank you for providing the business perspective here because of course
we talk a lot about education, but if people are educated and there
isn't a business community that is receptive to qualified minorities
then, obviously, we have a problem.
And so I was wondering what kind of legal constraints there are in
France to having an explicitly, positive discriminatory policy within a
company? So if there are issues--seeing as how France has this policy
of race-blindness, whether a company like L'Oreal can be very explicit
in its recruitment of minorities, or whether it might run into legal
problems with lawsuits, et cetera? Thanks.
Ms. Celestin-Andre. To answer the first question on the--if
anonymous CVs are efficient or not: We don't know. That's why we are
testing it. We are testing all--we are open to testing all types of
methods to help us overcome barriers to perceived--barriers to getting
into an interview process. We know that in France, last names, origins
of last names are very discriminatory in France.
We know that where a candidate lives, if they live in a good
neighborhood, they won't have a problem getting an interview. But if
they live in a bad neighborhood, they will have a problem getting an
interview. In France, in resumes--photos are used on resumes in France.
And we know that if you look at a photo of someone, you can clearly see
where that person is coming from.
And so these are things that are process-driven. And we are looking
at all kinds of ways to help overcome that. We don't know if it's
efficient or not. The anonymous resumes were tested in different
countries already. We tested it in Italy and the results are not
conclusive. So we know that doesn't work in Italy, so we have to find
other ways.
For us in the company in France, what we've done already in terms
of objectively cleaning up our application process is that candidates
can send their resumes through our Web site. And as when they do that,
of course, all factors are there: name, address, et cetera. So what we
decided to do was before the resume filters down to the operational
H.R. managers, we remove automatically the address of the person; when
we can, we remove the photo. So we're already filtering the resumes to,
again, provide a--to remove what we know to be barriers to getting into
an interview process.
And in regards to--I guess the question--the second question is
more, is L'Oreal setting quotas in terms of hiring? If I can restate
your statement--your question is that, do we set quotas for hiring
different types of communities? And no, we don't do that. It's pretty
much illegal in France. So again, it's illegal. But we have to make
sure that we are getting the right talent.
And that's why when we talk--when I talk about diversifying where
we go to meet candidates, that's a key factor--a key action we're doing
to make sure we are going to different schools, schools in different
neighborhoods; we are not just going to the big campuses--(in French)--
or Sciences Po, which historically L'Oreal has been going to, and we
realized that we're getting the same profile of students. And so we're
now going into universities--universities in France, they don't have
the same image as they do in the United States. So we are going to
universities. We are going to different types of campuses to try to
meet the talent that we know is there. And we need to be able to reach
out to them.
Mr. Lake. Thank you very much, Jackie. Myself, I lived in France
for a long time, several years. And I was there when the old debate
started on the quota for a woman in the political list. So at the same
time there is no quota policy in France, there was--France may have
been one of the first countries in the world to bring a quota policy
for a woman. And I think a lot of people thought that it was very
progressive.
So it is interesting to know where we are now. That was like 15, 20
years ago. I mean, the Ambassador will certainly remind us. But I think
that a lot of democrats around the world were very happy about that.
But it is interesting to see that it is not really translating in the
minority world. But I think that Alain Dolium would like to say a few
words. Alain, please.
Mr. Dolium. I would like to talk about society. We talked about
quotas. Quotas are, indeed, one of the central issues that are being
dealt with in the French Republic. And when I talk about the Republican
space, what I mean by that is that by this expression, you have part of
the answer when you talk about the problem of quotas in France because
in fact, according to Republican values and according to our Republican
constitution, we are told that quotas would indeed be outside of the
law and that quotas would not be suitable in a Republican situation.
But we have a basic problem. Just imagine we are not talking about
the diversity. We are all talking about the need to acknowledge a
multicultural society in order to move toward a post-racial society
that will allow us to live better all together.
But how do we do this? If you do not know at the startup phase, if
you cannot identify the range of the problem, identify the people who
are subject to this discrimination, identify the value of these
policies, the effectiveness with which will, indeed, allow you to
improve the situation, I don't know if you can call these quotas if--I
don't know if you can call these measures, decisions.
At any rate, there is a quantitative element which is lacking in
our system as it stands. So as it's considered upfront in France. And
then I would like to talk about quotas once again because today, I had
a career in a big corporation, that I won't mention--mentioned CBS and
DHL are two large America corporations--because very quickly, they
recognized two things. They said if they wanted me to become a senior
manager, to become one of the CEOs, leaders of the strategy of the
group, they said that it would be better if I went into North American
companies.
Nonetheless, when I worked in these North American companies with
their representatives in France I had--once a month, I was on a quota
basis and revolving basis in the management board. And our role was
mostly to be working with White men, 55 years old, who came up out of
the great schools and of the great social establishment institution.
And these people are no longer esteemed because it now--we believe that
it's the fully normal and logical representation of the French elite.
The third point is the nature, per se, of this quota, which is a
basic problem, which consists in saying, yes, OK, diversity, how can we
introduce it? How can we measure it? How can we improve all of these
things?
But I believe that there is something that we do not talk enough
about. Namely, the positive contribution of diversity because today, we
have to admit, in a company such as L'Oreal, which has market segments
which are present all over the world, market segments which are
targeted according to consumers, male and female who belong to
different ethnic and racial groups, it would seem that it would be
suitable and effective for the company and many other corporations,
given the globalization of the economy to have profiles which represent
all of the markets that the company is involved with. So I tend to
believe that in order to improve the issue of diversity, you have to
look at the economic benefits thereof.
Ms. Celestin-Andre. If you'd allow me to--just to add--just to
comment on quotas. Just to note that in France, it is acceptable to
have quotas on the hiring of people with disabilities. So in France, it
is a legal requirement--I forget the size of the company that it has to
be. Six percent of the workforce has to be people with disabilities.
There's a new quota that just came out. I think we mentioned it in
terms of the Board of Directors where they are trying to get women,
more women representation at a very high level, so it's now, I think,
40 percent of the board has to be women. So that's another quota.
And there's recently a new quota that's passed on terms of age
because in France, there's a huge problem with age discrimination. If
you're over 50 years old, employment--retention in employment, as well
as evolution becomes a problem. And so with the weight of the social-
security problem in France, they need to get--need to maintain all the
workers in the work force, so now there is a quota that's put out.
So progressively, we're seeing where the government is
institutionalizing laws to address issues. And so maybe 1 day--who
knows--maybe there will be a quota in regards to ethnic representation.
Mr. Lake. OK, Khalid, now, or--(in French).
[Note.--The following remarks are delivered via translator.]
Mr. Hamdani. Yes, we have to reform the constitution in order to
establish quotas. Indeed, in terms of gender parity, that was done in
the constitution. That was done. But all you need to do that is to
reform the constitution.
Mr. Lake. OK, thank you very much, Khalid. I know that there is a
lot of people are--I think the debate is heating up here. So Reda Didi,
maybe you want to introduce yourself very quickly?
[Note.--The following remarks are delivered via translator.]
Mr. Didi. Yes. Good morning. I'm Reda Didi. I am the Chairman of
the section which works on working-class neighborhoods on these issues
of discrimination. So the issue of companies has several points. In
terms of elections and companies--recruiting: You have to know that we
are in an area--we have legislation and labor laws in France which
protect very much the employees. Therefore, hiring is much more
complicated, and firing a person is also much more complicated in
France.
So during the hiring process, you have to talk about this in a very
vulgar manner. A hiring process is a challenge. It's complicated. So
recruiters do not want to get it wrong about this person that they will
hire because to fire that person will be very expensive.
So you also have to think of a second thing is that in France,
according to recent studies which have been demonstrated, the mixing of
persons and the mixing of marriages and people who blend together is
the strongest in the world--mixed marriages. So people like each other.
People do live together. People frequent each other. People get married
and they have children. And in France, ultimately, we have a problem
with a very small part of the elite--which is the case in all countries
of the world--and they close the doors to power and they let nobody in.
And given that we are the visible markers of this diversity,
finally, because this is basically due to a social difference, as my
colleague said it very correctly--notably, Hamdani and Rokhaya Diallo--
we are visible and we can see that we're not there. We're not in the
Board of Directors, we're not represented in Parliament and we can see
that we're not present in all spheres of power.
So what are the solutions? So the issues of quotas is interesting
to me but it has to be limited to finding the good diagnostic of the
situation. Within companies, you cannot give a position of manager and
save it for this number of Blacks, Asians and North Africans because I
wonder who's at the door and who's allowing people to enter. It's just
like a nightclub who lets you inside a nightclub. You let the person in
and you have to allow people in who are compatible with your policy, so
you have to be cautious there.
But this is a real issue, a real question that we have to ask
ourselves about ethnic groups and have to come up with a great
diagnosis because oftentimes, we attend conferences and we don't have
the same diagnostic, but we have to come up with right solutions. For
example, the HALDE, the committee to fight discrimination.
I find that a shame for issues of world competitivity we have
multiple competencies. I think our country can go much further if we
indeed show our skills and we have to find, in the neighborhoods, these
people who are very competent, who are very skilled and find them where
we are.
But in this issue of competivity, this committee to fight
discrimination--for example, let's take a country that is similar to
ours--Great Britain: the same population, the same ethnic diversity.
Their budget is different. They have to understand that. For example,
I'm not saying that we have to work on affirmative action. We must
first of all, work against all issue discrimination and sanction very
strongly people who do not respect the law because many companies in my
country play the game and they are advancing their logic, but there are
other companies that don't allow us to reach the higher levels of
management because at our level, we do mostly get by.
Mr. Lake. I have you in the list: Aurelie Ganga. And please
introduce yourself, and in a minute or two.
[Note.--The following remarks are delivered via translator.]
Ms. Ganga. My name is Aurelie Ganga. I have just concluded a
masters in management at Sciences Po and I've just created a company in
Europe and this is the Caucus of European Diversity. Why did we create
this group because we wanted to go to the world's greatest democracies
and to transpose all of the tools that have been used to ensure
integration of minorities in each country?
And the first debate that we're starting here is the one that we're
having today in the United States. And we're very happy that our
Ambassador honored us by his presence. And we're very happy that these
companies are supporting us such as L'Oreal, la Charte de diversite les
ecoles, and other groups.
But I'd like to say that this is not a problem that is specific to
France. And I believe we will all win together. Discriminations are not
exclusive to one color of skin or exclusive to homosexuals or to
handicapped people. And for example, in my university, Paris-Dauphine,
we talked about the issue of handicaps because people who have
handicaps have many problems in France joining companies. So what we
want to do is observe, come up with tools that can be applicable, given
our history.
France is a beautiful country. We love our country and we are
happy, also, to be able to have these exchanges with you. But we want
to let you understand that we have a lot to contribute too. Perhaps
this might be the opportunity for another fact-finding visit where
Americans can come visit our country, find out what we do in terms of
health, education and on the treatment of young people. Thank you very
much. [Applause.]
Mr. Lake. Thank you. Thank you very much. I know there are a lot of
people who would like to speak. I see some of those hands. But I just
would like to remind you, we have just 20 minutes left and the
Ambassador of France is supposed to do some closing remarks. In
general, after the closing remarks is the end of everything.
But I understand from the protocol of the French Embassy that the
Ambassador is interested in taking some questions after his remarks. So
I guess we want to keep maybe, like, 15 minutes--so we have another 5
minutes, so I suggest that we make quick comments or quick questions
and we go around and finish those with the panelists and give the
chance for the Ambassador to speak. Please, sir.
Question. Thank you very much. I will speak French.
[Note.--The following remarks are delivered via translator.]
Mr. Ramanaior. Yes, my name is Philip Ramanaior. I am here thanks
to the invitation of Dr. Sephocle--Marilyn--to take part at this annual
convention of the Black Caucus. Now, with respect to discrimination or
affirmative action, this is a proposed solution, but I would like to
talk about the work that various groups are doing in Guadeloupe because
I live in Guadeloupe, which is part of France and Europe as well, but
I'd like to talk about the work that is being done.
And here, what's at stake is working on the root causes, be they at
the so-called Whites, and the problems that we have within our
community. It is indeed true that our community does not really
integrate itself because we have had a break of affiliation toward our
history. And it's because--this is a treatment that exists. We must
really understand why this break has occurred and why we have to work
on ourselves. I'm not talking about French people, White people. We
have a work to do on our own selves to figure out, why do we not
project ourselves; we just live day by day; why we do not look to the
future; why do we talk about diversity?
And many people know exactly what they're doing--everybody knows
well what you're doing, but there are very few people from the West
Indies who mobilize themselves because we have identity problems. We
don't know exactly where we come from. And I think in the United
States, African-Americans in the United States do not have this problem
of break of their origins. American Blacks know exactly where they come
from. But we, when we were freed from slavery, we were told we were
just French and your ancestors were the Gauls. So we have an identity
problem.
We went to Guadeloupe, but we have this major problem and we're
trying to solve this. And this will go along with these problems of
discrimination which are being dealt with here.
Mr. Lake. Even in America, sometimes, the time can be extensible.
So I just learned that we have 15 more minutes and so we can go until
12:45. So here's what I'll suggest: The Ambassador has to leave at
12:30, so if it's OK with all of you here, we're going to stop the
exchange--the Q&A for a moment; give a chance to the Ambassador to make
his remarks--I will not call them closing remarks anymore--and give you
also a chance, maybe, to ask him three or four questions before he
leaves. I think it is going to be very interesting.
So by the way, I'm very surprised that nobody really has raised in
a very specific way the issue of the Roma riots or situation in Europe.
And I'm sure that the Ambassador will take a minute or two to talk
about it in his remarks. [Laughter.] So maybe a last comment and we'll
give a chance to the Ambassador to speak. Please, go ahead.
Dr. Sephocle. I'm Marilyn Sephocle. I'm a professor at Howard
University. And I am a French and American citizen, so I've had the
opportunity to observe both societies with regards to the issue of
race.
And one thing that I just want to point out in the French context
is that there is--people are afraid of two things especially in the
elite in France. They are afraid of a quote of statistics because the
statistics refers to history, to a painful history of gathering
statistics about the Jewish people, for example, for very nefarious
aims.
And another word that people are very afraid of is
``communautarisme.'' It's a very bad word in French.
So I don't know whether the discourse has to change. But in order
to diagnose a problem, you need to have statistics. For example, we all
know that when it comes to wars, minorities in France are
disproportionately represented among the casualties, whether it's World
War I, World War II or even now, the war in Afghanistan. So statistics,
in a way, are important.
And there is a need, also, to change the discourse with regards to
the word communautarisme. Communautarisme is a bad word in France, but
there should be a way to approach it so that people feel comfortable
talking about communautarisme.
Mr. Lake. Thank you. I thought it was a specific question on the
Roma, but I understand where you're coming from in terms of
communautarisme, which is a key issue regarding the Roma people.
One of the typical pieces of information--I'm sure most of you have
it--is a couple days ago, the French Government had to change one of
its administrative--I don't know even the word in English;
``circulaire,'' we call it in French--affidavit, basically, giving some
instruction from the ministry of interior and take out the word of
``Roma,'' which was specifically mentioned in that document.
And as I mentioned earlier, also, the European Union has engaged in
a legal--in legal action against the French Government on this issue.
So I'm sure the Ambassador will talk about it when he makes his
remarks or will certainly take some more of your questions. So I'm
really pleased to have Ambassador Pierre Vimont take the floor now.
Ambassador. [Applause.]
Amb. Vimont. Thank you, Mr. Lake, and thank you for your very kind
engagement to speak about the Roma community. [Laughter.] I will, I
will. But before that, I would just like to say one or two words about
what I've heard up to now because I think it was--I'm telling it really
candidly and frankly and sincerely. I think it was a very interesting
debate.
Typically, the kind of debate that we have to have on such
difficult issues as the whole question of discrimination try to avoid
heated exchanges or controversy as we can see here and there. And in
other words, try to keep our nerves and try to understand, really, what
it's all about.
My second observation--and I would go totally in agreement with
what Marilyn Sephocle just said--this is also a question of culture,
very much so. I totally agree with you. There is something always a bit
surprising when you hear that, in France, if you would like to have
statistics, figures, legal figures about community, this is not
allowed; this is illegal. And we cannot go along that. But this goes
back to a long culture, precisely of what--as you said very rightly
sir--what is in our--in the meaning and in our--in the way we think
about our republic, what is at the heart of the French nation and what
France is all about.
We're moving along that way. What has been said about quotas slowly
creeping in here and there and in our legislation, mostly for disabled,
for women and some other people. This is slowly moving. Again, what has
been done, for instance, in the field of education with the institute
of political science, which is a little step, I think, in the right
direction.
The whole question, I think, is twofold--is, how far can we go and
move slowly French society and French mindsets into the right
direction? It takes time. It's a long-term process. And maybe we're
quite impatient, quite often in France, but I think this is really what
it's all about.
And the second point, I think, which relates to also another great
characteristic of our country and that's why I was very interested in
what was said to us about L'Oreal is that, usually, in France,
everybody hopes that the state will do everything, that the government
is going to do everything.
The government can do what was precisely said a few minutes ago:
can put the framework, the legislative framework. But then it is also a
question of the responsibility for each and every one of the French
citizens to make the whole thing move in the right direction. Once
again, it's a long process, but I hope and I'm quite definite--I'm
quite sure about it that we're heading in the right direction.
Just to give one example which always impresses me very much in
France. At one point, we had those difficult situations in the suburbs
and people had the impression that we were going to see more and more
difficulty and tension between what one could call the Muslim community
and the rest of the society.
And to the surprise, I think, of many people and many observers in
France, things have not gone in the bad--in the worst direction--for
many reasons. But one of them is that the marriage between the
different communities is growing. The number is growing, which I think
is a healthy sign of the French society.
I think another feature of the French is they always like to
criticize their own country. We're champions in that field. Let's look,
of course, at the glass as half empty, but let's look also, from time
to time, at when it is half filled.
Now, to the Roma community, if you allow me. [Laughter.] Here
again, let's try to avoid heated exchanges as we have seen maybe and
heard in recent days.
A few facts to try to help everybody to understand: First of all,
in legal term, there's nothing--there is nothing as such as Roma
community. There's nothing in legal terms as Roma citizen. Those people
are citizens, quite often, from European countries--Romania and
Bulgaria, for most of them--and they must be treated as such from a
legal point of view.
Second, there is nothing like any kind of collective action against
this so-called community. We're not targeting that so-called community
because we're not allowed, by law. Not only French law, but European
conventions. The Charter of Fundamental Human Rights that we have
signed and ratified; the Convention of the European Council; French
law, also, are forbidding any kind of collective expulsion. So it is
not this problem that we're facing.
What we're facing is the question of taking measures against
individual citizens from, as I was saying, mostly European countries
that are creating a problem related mostly to public order or to other
questions that have to do with sometimes with trafficking here and
there, robbery, et cetera and that we have to deal with that. And we
have to do it under our legislation and under the very strong
constraint of great--very strong legal oversight and judicial
oversight.
And I'm very, to some extent, not totally surprised, but very much
interested that, as we've seen a lot of reports on what has been going
on recently in my country, I haven't read anywhere that recently about
some of those individual measures that have been taken--administrative
courts in France have canceled.
It has been recently the case of two courts that have just canceled
measures that have been taken there because every one of those European
citizens have the right to go to the French courts and ask for the
cancellation of those measures. And this is watched very carefully by
our courts.
Last, another point, what we're doing, quite often, to help those
so-called Roma members of the--Roma community to return home, we allow
for--not insignificant allocations, financial allocations for them to
go back home and to even reinsert themselves in their society.
Something like $400 to go back home and sometimes more than $5,000,
even more, to start a business or to set up their home when they go
back there.
And what was very interesting recently when two members of the
French Government went to Romania and tried to see how we could try to
cope with the whole issue, our--their Romanian counterparts told them,
it's not surprising that so many of our citizens come to your country
because you're giving them great facilities in financial terms. So you
should maybe think a little more about what you're doing. So you see,
now, I think it is a little bit more complicated than what is usually
said, I think.
And I would like to stop there because I hope the discussion can go
on whether I am here or not, but I think what is really interesting is
that we're facing, in fact, a major problem. The so-called Roma
represent today 9 million citizens all around Europe with great
difficulty of integration in their own national societies, whether it
be Romania, Bulgaria or other country.
Every country to which they are going, circulating, around Europe
is facing exactly the same problem as France. Not only Europe, by the
way. Canada has recently decided to set up, again, the obligation of
visas for people coming from that community, which means that everybody
is facing that problem.
And the main problem I think we all have to face in a responsible
way is, how can we help that community through financial means, through
every kind of possible assistance? How do we help those people, at
last, to settle peacefully and with a real significant degree of
stability; to insert themselves and to integrate the society to which
they belong? And I think that's the most important. This is where we
have to keep on discussing with the European Commission and our
European partners.
Let's be honest. France set up a conference when she had--when
France had the Presidency of the European Union in 2008 about that
issue. Many of our partners didn't show great interest into it. Spain
did it again during the first half of this year--also set up a
conference to discuss more about the whole issue about the Roma
community. Nobody paid much attention to it. So I think we really have,
all together, to be much more aware of the kind of issue we're facing
there and to try to find a solution all together.
I'll stop here. I've been quite too long and I apologize. But Mr.
Lake, it's all back to you.
Mr. Lake. Thank you very much, Ambassador Vimont. I understand that
you are willing to take maybe a couple of questions. I know you have
about 5 more minutes. Is it OK? All right, OK. So I will suggest that
rather than making comments because we don't really have a lot of
time--the Ambassador has just 5 minutes, so we'll just take questions
and a few questions to the Ambassador before he leaves. Sir? Please
introduce yourself, please.
Dr. Blakely. I'm Allison Blakely. I'm a Professor of European
History at Boston University and I'm engaged in research on a history
of Blacks in European history, primarily.
Mr. Ambassador, I'd like to first thank you for participating in
this discussion. My question is very simple. I think you are correct in
assuming that many of us do see the policy that's being pursued
concerning the Roma as directed against a group and not individuals.
I'm just wondering, is it your impression that the majority of the
French public also sees this as directed against individuals and not
against the gypsies and the Roma?
Amb. Vimont. I would say it very much depends where you live.
[Laughter.] You know, for a lot of French citizens who live in small
towns and who have, in the suburbs of that town or that village,
representatives from the Roma community stationed there, usually in an
illegal position on grounds that can be either public or private, for
those people, it seems that something is wrong there and that we should
take the necessary measure against that group.
But for, I think, many other citizens who live far away from that
reality, I think they are more of the opinion that we're talking about
individuals. And I think that this is the whole problem that we're
facing with discrimination in general terms.
It depends very much on the kind of awareness that you have to that
issue: whether you see it in a rather abstract way and you're able to
look at the different concepts and to see how you can try to solve that
issue in a responsible way, and people who are living in a very much
more practical way with that kind of issue and facing it day to day.
Dr. Blakely. Thank you.
Mr. Lake. Yeah, one of the privileges of being moderator is you ask
people to only ask a question and you don't do that, which is what I'm
going to do just right now just to echo what the Ambassador said.
I was very surprised; I read this very good French newspaper,
Courrier International, and there is a poll in Italy where 80 percent
of the Italians asked for the expulsion of the Roma people. And 90
percent of them are Italian themselves. That just shows kind of the
complexity of that issue in Europe. I know that the gentleman next to
the professor would like to ask a question, too.
Mr. Khan. Thank you. My name is Suhail Khan and I'm a Senior Fellow
with the Institute for Global Engagement, a religious freedom think
tank. And so my question is regarding religious freedom in France and
the move to ban crosses, yarmulkes and headscarves for women.
I know that there are some who see that as something as a
liberation for some, but of course, as Americans, we see it as a
religious expression and freedom of expression. What is the status of
that issue right now in France? Is there any possibility for change or
reform?
Mr. Lake. Ambassador, just before you answer, maybe we can take
another question just because I'm looking at the time--I understand
you're very tight on time--and so that somebody else wanted to ask a
question somewhere here. No? OK. I'm sorry. So Ambassador, please.
Amb. Vimont. Your question is a very interesting question and so
I'm not saying that usually because I'm embarrassed by it but because I
think you are at the heart of, really, the difference of culture
between our two countries.
I think we both start from the same point, freedom of religion or
freedom of speech, even, to a large extent. And we go exactly to
contradictory conclusions. Just to give you one example before coming
back to your point about the freedom of speech, in France, there would
not have been any difficulties starting from the same principle of the
freedom of speech, to stop that strange preacher from Florida who
wanted to burn the Quran. We have everything in our French legislation
that allows the government to stop him before he goes ahead, if only
because his speech could create public disorder. And because of that,
you have the right in France under clear legal framework to do
something, which is totally different from yours.
With regard to the freedom of religion, I don't think there is much
hope for the time being, at least, that we will change that legislation
on scarves because in fact, everybody thought that, that would create a
lot of tension and it will be very difficult to implement that
legislation.
And to be honest, this has not gone too badly so far in France.
Everybody has thought that. After all, it has been done in a very
practical way. In schools, some schools, where they had some
difficulty, they have tried to see how they could cope with it. But at
the end of it, looking after a few years of the implementation of that
legislation, people feel--and people who are in charge of managing our
school system who didn't know how to behave with regard to that issue
have found a clear path on which they can work. And I think this has
not been too bad so far.
But once again, I agree with you. Seen from an American point of
view, this looks like a kind of infringement of the freedom of
religion. We see it as the possibility for everybody to live together
in good coexistence, with the idea that the separation between church
and state is really implemented at what we consider as mostly, before
everything else, as secular society.
With regard to the burqa, I think--because I know that some of you
would like to ask a question, I think this is a different issue, if
only because from a religious point of view. And many of the Muslim
leaders we have been able to talk to about the burqa do not consider
the burqa as part of the precepts of their religion. It's something
else. It's a tradition that exists in some areas of the Muslim world,
but this is not a religious habit or even rule. And therefore, this is
something quite different.
And it will be very interesting to watch how reaction appears in
the Muslim countries now that that legislation has been adopted now by
our two houses.
And mind you, we still have to go through, now, the constitutional
court that will have to say also its opinion about this. But it'll be
very interesting to watch and observe the kind of reactions you will
get in Muslim countries. And we'll see.
Mr. Lake. Thank you very much, Ambassador. I promised your staff
that you will be leaving at 12:30. It's 2 minutes past 12:30--
[laughter]--so thank you very much for your time. [Laughter, applause.]
OK, so I know there were more questions and comments on the
discussion, including on the--some on the statement made by the
Ambassador. So the audience is welcome to intervene. I know Khalid, you
wanted to say something at one point; I know Alain; also, Rokhaya. But
if there is--in the public first, maybe a few question or comments.
Please, Professor.
Dr. Sephocle. With regards to the banning of religious symbols in
French culture, in French life, I would take you back probably to the
history of France. France has a long history of wars of religion, wars
where the basis was religion, whether we think of the 100 Years' War,
the 30 Years' War, the 7 Years' War. So these are--this is a long
process of wars that have been fought in France and where the basis in
part was religion; in part, or in whole, was religious.
So France has come to some sort of a modus vivendi where secularism
is what prevails. And it's very dear to France. And laicite is what
they have--what the French have come up with. So it's very dear to the
French, the separation of church and state.
Mr. Lake. Thank you. Any other comments or questions? Please.
[Note.--The following remarks are delivered via translator.]
Ms. Burna. Thank you. Three quick observations. Well, first of all,
I'm Maria Guiseppina Burna. I'm at the Paris-Dauphine University and I
work at another organization, a nonprofit organization that works on
diversity issues.
So first of all, we mentioned the impact of diversity on the
performance of companies. It seems to me that when you're in France and
when you're turning to companies, well, of course, the economic
dimension is very important in order to make anything you say credible.
You want to promote minority and diversity; that's important. But
you need to do more than that. Diversity needs to go beyond fighting
discrimination and needs to go to a much larger reflection regarding an
individual's social, moral performance as well as economic performance
of the companies. In fact, companies that do not discriminate and that
embrace difference are in fact more creative. They have far more
innovation.
So not discriminating goes well beyond being simply a legal
obligation. And we've talked about the strong legal framework in France
to fight discrimination, but diversity is also a very important
economic driver, provided this diversity is properly managed. So that's
my first comment related to the comments on discrimination in France.
So in France, as we've said, we have a lot of--a very strong legal
framework. But perhaps we are lacking this citizen-awareness and
awareness on the part of victims to point out that there has been
discrimination. And so people need to learn how to denounce
discrimination and to go to the proper authorities in order to do this.
Being discriminated against is a very strong violence that is committed
onto individuals.
And so when we talk about affirmative action in France, of course,
this goes counterparty to Republican values whereby all citizens are
equal. And in that manner, France and United States are countries that
were born out of revolutions, out of fights for emancipation, and thus,
the notions of freedom and equality are extremely important.
That being said, diversity measures should not be confused with
quotas. When you want to measure diversity, you're trying to measure
discrimination, in fact, and it means having a very objective
awareness. And here, there are various academic procedures that can be
used to highlight, to pinpoint this discrimination as well as
diversity, which is present, but which is often undervalued.
So three dimensions are very important and so I'd like to thank you
again for this very interesting, enriching debate and which shows that
there's certainly good ideas, both in America and France and I think
it's important that we share those great ideas.
Mr. Lake. Thank you very much. Monsieur?
[Note.--The following remarks are delivered via translator.]
Mr. Monsterleet. I'm a Journalist; Chief Editor of a newspaper from
Guadeloupe. I'd like to mention two points. We talked a lot about
politics. We talked a lot about entrepreneurial willingness, but we did
not talk about the power of the media. But the media, what are they?
They represent the voters.
Just a quick example, in my newspaper this morning, we received a
memo from a deputy political representative in Guadeloupe. And so
something happened 100 years ago, something that is well-known in
France. Nobody mentioned this event, though. And so Monsieur--
(inaudible)--is a famous--(inaudible). And when he died, that was
spoken a lot about. So it's not the same treatment for all topics.
And so I'm not trying to criticize L'Oreal because L'Oreal has
certainly made a lot of progress, but I did read an article recently,
and the article talked about that famous glass ceiling. Indeed,
L'Oreal's policy--external policy--is fairly realistic in terms of a
corporate policy. For example, in the United States, there are more
Black people, and L'Oreal is putting a lot of Black people in the
company because that's an economic advantage; whereas in France, that
is not the same situation. And so here, we have the blue, White and red
code--bleu, blanc, rouge--whereby people were recruited, basically, on
their physical appearance. And so now, that has been exposed. And so
I'm very pleased to hear that L'Oreal, now, has a much more adapted and
inclusive policy.
Finally, to conclude, I just wanted to say you have laws but not
all laws are applied. And there are a lot of populist strategies that
are used toward voters.
Mr. Lake. Thank you. I guess I'd allow Jackie to maybe react to
that if you want to. You don't have to. If not, we can move to another
question. Jackie?
Ms. Celestin-Andre. I'm not quite sure if I understood all your
comments regarding L'Oreal, but just to put the facts straight. Why
don't I say it in French?
[Note.--The following remarks are delivered via translator.]
Ms. Celestin-Andre. It's really important in terms of what you said
regarding discrimination. Well, we need to be very concise and precise
in terms of what has happened. In fact, L'Oreal was denounced but
that's because we're L'Oreal. But L'Oreal was not the culprit behind
that situation.
First of all, we were not talking about recruitment in terms of the
recruitment of managers. The situation occurred with a recruitment
agency for hostesses for an in-store event. Thus, L'Oreal had not
provided any recommendations whatsoever regarding the recruitment of a
very specific profile. That did not come from us. It came from the
recruitment agency. That being said, L'Oreal was criticized and blamed
for the situation simply because we are L'Oreal. But that was not the
actual situation. You need to get the facts straight.
But for example, in this particular situation, we were quite
surprised, but we remained firmly convinced that our history, our
background, is that we do not discriminate in terms of recruitment. Our
aim is to move things forward and to move forward in a very proactive
manner. And we wish to contribute to the progress of nondiscrimination
and thus, L'Oreal remains clearly devoted to this aim and to promote
the equal access for French citizens and citizens worldwide.
Mr. Lake. Thank you. I think we all heard your comments. We give a
chance to answer because her organization was directly question in your
comments. So I suggest that we move on. We have only 4 minutes. I know
a lot of the members of the panel want to speak, but I suggest we give
them the last couple minutes and maybe take a couple other questions.
Please.
[Note.--The following remarks are delivered via translator.]
Ms. Louisa. Hello. I'll be speaking in French and I apologize for
that. I'm Louisa--(inaudible). I identify myself as Franco-Algerian. I
live in France. I own a company and I'm also Chairman of an
organization that promotes diversity in the workplace. To go back to
the metaphor of the half-empty glass, I would like to provide the
following reminder.
It's good to delegate power, but you also need to take power, to
seize power. For example, we have migrant entrepreneurship--that's what
it's called in French. It's a real strength and there are many company
directors in France that come from all areas of diversity. For example,
15 percent of currently created companies are created from--via
minorities.
Therefore, in France, minorities have a real economic power.
However, we are not well organized as you are in caucuses. However, in
terms of statistics and in terms of numbers, it exists and the momentum
is increasing, and there is economic power that is held by the
minorities in France and I wanted to underscore that point.
Mr. Lake. Thank you, thank you very much.
Mr. Rheault. Thank you. My name is Magali Rheault. I'm with the
Gallup Center for Muslim Studies. This morning, we touched a lot on
basically the diversity from a racial and ethnic standpoint. The focus
of my research is more along the lines of religious diversity. This is,
of course, a very, very challenging topic to discuss in a French
context.
I am from France originally. I've lived in the United States for
many, many years, and I do travel to France to brief policymakers and
opinion leaders on this research. But I think it is a very, very
important dimension that needs to be included in the debate on
diversity in France and the challenges that many people--we can't even
really use the word community in the French context.
But basically, one of the key findings from our research is that
French Muslims feel French but the French don't embrace them as being
part of the fabric of France. And this is something that we have a ton
of research that I would be happy to be share with, you know, anybody
who is interested in because it is a very important dimension in the
diversity debate in France. Thank you.
Mr. Lake. Thank you very much for sharing that. And I'm sure at the
end of the conversation, a lot of people are going to come directly to
you. So now, if there is not maybe a very last question before the
panel can close? Please.
[Note.--The following remarks are delivered via translator.]
Mr. Coulant. Hello. I'm Jean-Paul Coulant. I am in charge of
academic relations in Washington. I'd like to emphasize two points.
There was a Pew Center survey that demonstrated that France is a
country in which minorities are best perceived by the local
populations. For example, of all the countries in Europe, France has
the best perception of Jewish people.
And I would like to go back to that notion of freedom of religion.
I come from a so-called invisible minority. I am White but I am also
Protestant. And in fact, in 1905, in France, we had the law on
secularism where you have a separation of church and state but the
church in question was the Catholic Church. And when this occurred, it
triggered a civil war. A lot of people--a lot of army officers
resigned. There was a lot of civil disobedience, there were a lot of
riots and that's because French Catholics could not bear the idea, the
thought, that the French state was no longer going to represent the
Catholic state.
There's an old slogan in France--Catholic and French. And so one of
the main blocks in today's society, today's French society--and this is
something that I really feel as a Frenchman--there's a fear that there
will be a new civil war centered around Islam. To simplify what I'm
saying: In fact, we already have a long history. We've already paid for
that history and we don't wish to start over again with that same
history.
And so secularism in France applies also to Catholics. And so for
example, a fervent Catholic who works in the French educational system
needs to really integrate himself or herself into his or her working
environment and needs to accept certain restrictions. So that's just my
personal opinion. It is not the Embassy's opinion, but it's an opinion
of a historian, which is what I am.
Mr. Lake. Yeah, so we literally have, what, minus 3 minutes, I
should say? [Laughter.] So we're going to take, really, 30 seconds for
each of the panelists who want to make a last comment. And I'm going to
turn over the mic to Mischa Thompson from the Helsinki Commission.
Rokhaya?
[Note.--The following remarks are delivered via translator.]
Ms. Diallo. I wanted to respond to this notion of the power of the
media. There's a real disconnect between the media and political
action. There's been a lot of talk about the problem about the Roma but
it was actually triggered by an event that happened in France. There
were some travelers who destroyed a police station in France. And so
the ministry of the interior reacted by lumping together all of the
Romas and demanding their expulsion. And so what happens systematically
is that politicians use events in order to react.
Another thing that happened, President Sarkozy is contemplating
taking French nationality from minorities. So for example--and this is
because a young North African man had pointed a weapon at a policeman.
And based on this event, the French President decided that there are
real Frenchmen that would be punished by existing sanctions whereas
there are other French people whose nationality could be removed, as if
this French nationality was conditional.
And I think it's very important to emphasize this: Politicians use
this hidden racism as a political weapon. You know, the Front national,
extreme right group, has also reached a second round of elections in
France. And this is an important fact that we need to keep in mind.
We've talked about the various veils. You know, 2004, no veils in
schools. And now, another law: You cannot wear full veil even in
streets in France. And this was something that was really--had a lot of
media coverage. And in fact, in 2004, there was only about 100 women
who wore veils in school, yet this was the front page on French
newspapers for months.
And yet again, there are certain events that are showcased in the
French media whereas most people in France are not confronted with
women wearing veils. And so we need to keep in mind the fact that
there's a perception that is really nurtured by politicians as well as
by the media.
And the reason that there's a lot of emphasis on the Roma
population is that because there's a politician in France who needs to
distract attention from certain topics. And media have a real
responsibility in terms of their representation of minorities. In fact,
minorities are overrepresented when they take part in negative news
events.
Mr. Lake. Thank you very much, Rokhaya. Alain?
[Note.--The following remarks are delivered via translator.]
Mr. Dolium. Yes, thank you. I'd like to go back to what was said.
And I agree with what--much of what Rokhaya has said. In fact, when I
was talking about the current situation in France and the three drivers
that we really need to use in order to move things forward and to
really have a true multicultural and postcolonial society, well, I
emphasized this idea that we need to have a new political class. But
I'd like to go even beyond that. We need to have a creative class.
We need to have people who can rethink French society in a real
breakthrough manner. And they need to be able to make these measures
tangible. Among other facts, if I limit myself to that creative class
and that political class, well, I believe that a political class in
France--to which I belong--needs to stop having an approach that
focuses on events, on news events. It's like a judge that enables
politicians to create cleavage.
But we don't need segmentation; we don't need cleavage. On the
contrary, we need national unity in order to build a society that is
more balanced, more just. Because in France, we certainly need to move
our debates and we need to stop focusing on media events, news items
and trivial events.
Mr. Lake. Thank you very much, Alain. Khalid?
[Note.--The following remarks are delivered via translator.]
Mr. Hamdani. I, of course, agree with much has been said by my
colleagues. And of course, with Islam, people need to stop believing
that Islam is a foreign body, a foreign culture in France.
Let us remember that the first two Crusades were not initiated by
the British. The French decided that they needed to build their idea by
recovering the St. Sepulchre. And so French culture is largely imbued
with Islamic culture. I'm not going to provide a complete reminder of
all those historical moments, but Islam and France have been--of
course, had difficult relations for a long time, but they are linked.
However, you know, in France--France is extremely Catholic and
something that's, particularly to with nonbelievers, you have atheist,
Republican French people are in fact profoundly Catholic. You know,
they confess continuously and they refuse to accept their acts, to take
responsibility for their acts.
And now, to go back to the law of 1905, well, it put end to a war
that had been started by republic that was called truant, but I don't
think we need to go back to historical events. Clearly, Islam is not a
threat to civil peace in France. On the contrary, Islam contributes to
pacifying relations, you know.
The mixed marriages have been emphasized. That's important. And
what is most difficult, to go back to the Roma situation, is the fact
that people are evicted and then they come back. And so this is a legal
detour that is quite difficult to understand. So legal experts
understand all these matters.
But to go back to the Roma, what is most unbearable for me, of
course, is significant funds are being given to Bulgaria and Romania,
but these funds are not used properly. What's most unbearable for me is
that during World War II--and this is not--I'm not trying to make a
funny comment here. During World War II, the Roma, the gypsies were
evicted. And so I find it unbearable and I really emphasize that term--
unbearable. It is quite ``unbearable'' for me to see how they are being
treated yet again. They were sent to extermination camps. And so based
on that historical fact, it is inadmissible for this matter to be taken
lightly.
Of course, I find it very annoying when they come and wash my car
against my consent, but that's not the important fact, you know? Our
everyday comfort--I apologize; I am being very passionate about this,
but I feel strongly about this. You know, Romas and gypsies have
already been exterminated and evicted by Nazi Germany and so we really
need to make sure that we do not go back to that horrible imagery for
those people. [Applause.]
Mr. Lake. Thank you. Jackie?
Ms. Celestin-Andre. So my closing remarks are simple. It's that as
a company, we will continue to work on making our L'Oreal in France
increasingly more diverse, with more diverse talent, people coming from
different backgrounds.
Because we know after having done a study on the link between
diversity and performance--we've done the first study in France, and
probably the first one in Europe, where we've been able to conclude on
not just social basis, but on an economic basis that for example, when
you have a team that's a better mix of men and women in a team versus a
team that's just men for example, the team that's mixed with women is
extremely more productive than just having just the male team.
We know that when we have people of disabilities working in a team,
it's extremely difficult for a colleague who has a headache to say, I'm
not coming in to the office today. That person will come in because
they see that the colleague who has a disability is coming in.
And so we have more and more facts and figures based on economics
because at the end of the day, for a company like L'Oreal and maybe
just for the society as a whole, sometimes--it sounds a bit cruel but
it comes down to dollars and cents. And so we will continue to enrich
ourselves with talent and promote that talent because it does bring
value to the company. And as a whole, it will bring value to the
society.
Personally, this is my personal point of view, I don't think--
personally think--we will be able to get rid of discrimination. It's
inherent for years--I mean, centuries. I think the goal is to make sure
that in the environment that we are in that we can keep our thoughts,
our behaviors that are discriminatory outside. And while we're working
and we're working together that we can go through a common goal--for
common goal, and that, basically, the focus is going forward and trying
to work collectively.
At the end, if it helps society, that's great. And I think that's
the bottom line. It would be great. But we need to move forward and
work collectively.
Mr. Lake. Wonderful. Thank you, Jackie; 45 seconds, Kag. You have
the floor. [Laughter.] Kag, please, go ahead.
[Note.--The following remarks are delivered via translator.]
Mr. Sanoussi. I'm going to be brief. First of all, in terms of
employment, it's a fundamental issue in terms of diversity. When you
have a job, you have personal stability, you can integrate; you can
insert yourself. And so being employed is extremely important. And
that's why it's so important in France. And so that's why we want
companies to further commit themselves to that issue.
Next, we have this notion of commitment. When one commits
themselves to signing the charter of diversity, we ask you whether or
not you've done something. And if you haven't done something, then
you're excluded. And nobody likes to be excluded.
For example, we did not find that the media were committed enough.
And they have--we have only 20 media organizations in France that have
signed the charter. That's very little.
And so I'd like to conclude by saying that the fight against
discrimination and the promotion of diversity means not only respecting
anti-discrimination laws, but it goes well beyond that.
I'm not going to--for example, it's not going into a--(inaudible)--
and you have people of all different races and origins, men and women.
But when you look at the organizational chart, what actually happens is
that you have men who are in management positions, women on the bottom.
And we need to change that.
I come from a region in France in which rugby is played a lot. And
so the haka is the opposite of yakka. And unfortunately, we are often
yakka. ``Yakka'' means somebody else should do it in French. So
somebody else should do it. And so I'd like us to do a haka dance
because when you're in the haka dance, you're part of the melee. You're
working with others and you're moving forth diversity. [Applause.]
Mr. Lake. Thank you, Kag. That was a great way to close this panel
discussion. I just want--I'm sure most of you guys have received this
note. There is going to be, basically, a prolongation of this
conversation at Howard University tomorrow, Thursday, at the same time
that we started today, at 11 a.m. at the Ralph Bunche Center and it's
going to be a conversation around Blacks in Europe and the political
process. So I am sure that you guys can continue the conversation
there.
I'm going to turn the mic to Mischa Thompson. But also, I would
like to thank, on your behalf, the Helsinki Commission for organizing
this very interesting and very lively debate and maybe ask you, maybe,
a quick applause for the Commission. [Applause.]
[Whereupon at 1 p.m., the briefing ended.]
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