[House Hearing, 111 Congress]
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OVERSIGHT OF CEMETERIES AND OTHER FUNERAL SERVICES: WHO'S IN CHARGE?
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON COMMERCE, TRADE,
AND CONSUMER PROTECTION
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND COMMERCE
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED ELEVENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
JULY 27, 2009
__________
Serial No. 111-59
Printed for the use of the Committee on Energy and Commerce
energycommerce.house.gov
?
COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND COMMERCE
HENRY A. WAXMAN, California, Chairman
JOHN D. DINGELL, Michigan JOE BARTON, Texas
Chairman Emeritus Ranking Member
EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts RALPH M. HALL, Texas
RICK BOUCHER, Virginia FRED UPTON, Michigan
FRANK PALLONE, Jr., New Jersey CLIFF STEARNS, Florida
BART GORDON, Tennessee NATHAN DEAL, Georgia
BOBBY L. RUSH, Illinois ED WHITFIELD, Kentucky
ANNA G. ESHOO, California JOHN SHIMKUS, Illinois
BART STUPAK, Michigan JOHN B. SHADEGG, Arizona
ELIOT L. ENGEL, New York ROY BLUNT, Missouri
GENE GREEN, Texas STEVE BUYER, Indiana
DIANA DeGETTE, Colorado GEORGE RADANOVICH, California
Vice Chairman JOSEPH R. PITTS, Pennsylvania
LOIS CAPPS, California MARY BONO MACK, California
MICHAEL F. DOYLE, Pennsylvania GREG WALDEN, Oregon
JANE HARMAN, California LEE TERRY, Nebraska
TOM ALLEN, Maine MIKE ROGERS, Michigan
JANICE D. SCHAKOWSKY, Illinois SUE WILKINS MYRICK, North Carolina
CHARLES A. GONZALEZ, Texas JOHN SULLIVAN, Oklahoma
JAY INSLEE, Washington TIM MURPHY, Pennsylvania
TAMMY BALDWIN, Wisconsin MICHAEL C. BURGESS, Texas
MIKE ROSS, Arkansas MARSHA BLACKBURN, Tennessee
ANTHONY D. WEINER, New York PHIL GINGREY, Georgia
JIM MATHESON, Utah STEVE SCALISE, Louisiana
G.K. BUTTERFIELD, North Carolina
CHARLIE MELANCON, Louisiana
JOHN BARROW, Georgia
BARON P. HILL, Indiana
DORIS O. MATSUI, California
DONNA CHRISTENSEN, Virgin Islands
KATHY CASTOR, Florida
JOHN P. SARBANES, Maryland
CHRISTOPHER S. MURPHY, Connecticut
ZACHARY T. SPACE, Ohio
JERRY McNERNEY, California
BETTY SUTTON, Ohio
BRUCE BRALEY, Iowa
PETER WELCH, Vermont
(ii)
Subcommittee on Commerce, Trade, and Consumer Protection
BOBBY L. RUSH, Illinois
Chairman
JAN SCHAKOWSKY, Illinois CLIFF STEARNS, Florida
Vice Chair Ranking Member
JOHN SARBANES, Maryland RALPH M. HALL, Texas
BETTY SUTTON, Ohio DENNIS HASTERT, Illinois
FRANK PALLONE, New Jersey ED WHITFIELD, Kentucky
BART GORDON, Tennessee CHARLES W. ``CHIP'' PICKERING,
BART STUPAK, Michigan Mississippi
GENE GREEN, Texas GEORGE RADANOVICH, California
CHARLES A. GONZALEZ, Texas JOSEPH R. PITTS, Pennsylvania
ANTHONY D. WEINER, New York MARY BONO MACK, California
JIM MATHESON, Utah LEE TERRY, Nebraska
G.K. BUTTERFIELD, North Carolina MIKE ROGERS, Michigan
JOHN BARROW, Georgia SUE WILKINS MYRICK, North Carolina
DORIS O. MATSUI, California MICHAEL C. BURGESS, Texas
KATHY CASTOR, Florida
ZACHARY T. SPACE, Ohio
BRUCE BRALEY, Iowa
DIANA DeGETTE, Colorado
JOHN D. DINGELL, Michigan (ex
officio)
C O N T E N T S
----------
Page
Hon. Bobby L. Rush, a Representative in Congress from the State
of Illinois, opening statement................................. 1
Hon. Janice D. Schakowsky, a Representative in Congress from the
State of Illinois, opening statement........................... 4
Hon. Jesse Jackson, Jr., a Representative in Congress from the
State of Illinois, opening statement........................... 5
Hon. G.K. Butterfield, a Representative in Congress from the
State of North Carolina, opening statement..................... 6
Hon. Steve Cohen, a Representative in Congress from the State of
Tennessee, opening statement................................... 7
Witnesses
Don E. Grayson, Sr., great-grandson of Dinah Washington, family
member of individuals buried at Burr Oak Cemetery.............. 9
Prepared statement........................................... 11
Dwight Robinson, family member of individuals buried at Burr Oak
Cemetery....................................................... 13
Prepared statement........................................... 15
Roxie Williams, family member of individuals buried at Burr Oak
Cemetery....................................................... 16
Prepared statement........................................... 18
Jesse L. Jackson, Sr., Founder and President, Rainbowpush
Coalition, Inc................................................. 22
Prepared statement........................................... 24
Charles Harwood, Deputy Director, Bureau of Consumer Protection,
Federal Trade Commission....................................... 34
Prepared statement........................................... 36
Daniel W. Hynes, Illinois State Comptroller, Office of the
Comptroller.................................................... 44
Prepared statement........................................... 47
Joshua Slocum, Executive Director, Funeral Consumer Alliance..... 50
Prepared statement........................................... 53
Harvey Lapin, General Counsel, Illinois Cemetery and Funeral Home
Association.................................................... 63
Prepared statement........................................... 65
Spencer Leak, Jr., Leak and Sons Funeral Home.................... 81
Prepared statement........................................... 82
Submitted Material
Statement of International Cemetery, Cremation and Funeral
Association.................................................... 93
Statement of National Funeral Directors Association.............. 113
Statement of Thomas J. Dart, Cook County Sheriff................. 115
OVERSIGHT OF CEMETERIES AND OTHER FUNERAL SERVICES: WHO'S IN CHARGE?
----------
MONDAY, JULY 27, 2009
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee on Commerce, Trade,
and Consumer Protection,
Committee on Energy and Commerce,
Washington, DC.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 9:45 a.m., at
the Everett M. Dirksen U.S. Courthouse, Room 2525, 219 South
Dearborn Street, Chicago, Illinois, Hon. Bobby L. Rush
[chairman of the subcommittee] Presiding.
Present: Representatives Rush, Schakowsky, and Butterfield.
Also Present: Representatives Davis, Cohen, Jackson of
Illinois.
Staff Present: Michelle Ash, Chief Counsel, Subcommittee;
Anna Laitin, Professional Staff Member; Timothy Robinson,
Counsel; Will Cusey, Special Assistant.
Representative Rush's Office: Barbara Holt, District
Director; Younus Suleman, Deputy Director; Thyatiria Towns,
District Programs Coordinator; Kathryn English, Office
Coordinator; Lalique Bearden, Receptionist and Systems
Specialist; Zephranie Buetow, Intern; and Stephanie Gadlin,
Press Secretary.
Representative Schakowsky's Office: Ann Limjoco, Suburban
Director.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. BOBBY L. RUSH, A REPRESENTATIVE IN
CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF ILLINOIS
Mr. Rush. Good morning. Can you hear me? Is the mics on?
The mics are on?
First of all, I'd like to welcome each and every one of you
who are present to this Subcommittee hearing entitled,
``Oversight of Cemeteries and Other Funeral Services: Who's in
Charge?''
Before we begin, I want to thank the chief judge of the
U.S. District Court of the Northern District of Illinois, Judge
James F. Holderman, for his hospitality in allowing us, the
members of Congress, to use this hearing room, this courtroom
for this particular hearing. And I'd also like to thank the
distinguished gentleman from Israel, Judge Irana (phonetic),
for being here with us today to observe this hearing, and his
comment to me was that, in Israel, in his country, a hearing
would not take place in a facility such as this, in that the
distinguishing characteristics of the legislature and the
judicial body never allows this type of interaction. And, so,
he's amazed, and we certainly are grateful for him for taking
the time out to observe this particular hearing.
I'd like to welcome all of you to this Subcommittee Field
Hearing on Commerce, Trade, and Consumer Protection. I invited
a number of Congressional members, because I strongly suspect
that what happened at the Burr Oak Cemetery in Alsip, Illinois
is not an aberration. And, with that in mind, I'll yield myself
five minutes for opening comments.
If the horrible crimes that were committed at Burr Oak can
happen in our district and our city and our state, and even in
our nation, they can happen almost anywhere in our beloved
country. At a time like this, we especially need to hear from
the citizens we represent, and they need to hear from us, and
that's why I thought it would be best that we would bring your
federal government from Washington, D.C. home to Chicago, to
directly hear from the citizens in this community whose lives
have been shaken and altered by their horrifying revelations
concerning Burr Oak Cemetery.
I generally hope that the extraordinary and extremely
disturbing and distressful revelation at Burr Oak can bring
better attention to the problems in cemeteries all across this
nation. The stories of mass upheavals of sacred grave plots and
the desecration of remains at Burr Oak, Menorah Park, in Palm
Beach, Florida, and at Tri-State Crematory in northern Georgia
are just a few, and they should not vanish into thin air after
dominating the news for a few days.
Cemeteries and crematories should not be allowed to
continue to abuse grieved customers through fraudulent, shoddy,
and sloppy business practices. I've heard from hundreds of
constituents, including Ms. Debra Charles. Her father was
former heavyweight world boxing champion, Ezzard Charles, was
buried at Burr Oak, along with her mother. Ms. Charles said
that the hearing about Burr Oak--but, after hearing about Burr
Oak, it re-opened old wounds of pain and loss, and that she
felt she actually reburied her parents all over again. Another
of my constituents, Mr. Tony Burless, a professional
genealogist whose two great aunts were buried at Burr Oak,
points out that Burr Oak was probably the first African
American-owned cemetery in the Chicago area. According to Mr.
Burless, in February of 1927, an armed posse of 75 whites
interrupted a burial at Burr Oaks, arguing that African
Americans could not be buried on the premises. Ultimately, the
burial was permitted to proceed under the protection of police
guards. This historic landmark, the remains of those buried
there, and their living loved ones deserves much better care
than they are now receiving.
When cemetery operators fail to keep accurate records of
where the deceased have been laid to rest, families and loved
ones are prevented from connecting to their past. It hurts
families and shatters communities. When cemetery operators
weave in and out of trust agreements to escape accountability
and regulatory requirements, the quality of the service and
upkeep of cemetery facilities is prone to decline to
unacceptable levels. The moral fiber that shape our civilized
society is forever torn asunder. The simple fact is that many
consumers are unfamiliar with the sales practices of cemetery
owners and operators because they provide once-in-a-lifetime
goods and services. Lacking experience with funeral and burial
sectors, these consumers cannot reasonably be expected to
respectfully negotiate prices, charges, and contractual terms
applied to burial goods and to contracts and leases for land on
graveyard property.
I want to say to our witnesses, please listen closely to my
following request. As eyewitnesses on the first panel tell us
about their experiences with Burr Oak, as we talk about ways to
better protect consumers of burial products and services, I
would like for each one of you on the second panel to think and
briefly answer the following question, when we open the floor
to questions from members: Currently, there are no federal
minimum standards for the operation of cemeteries. Do there
need to be? If your answer is yes, then what are the best ways
for us to work together to make this happen?
With that said, I would ask for the Subcommittees'
unanimous consent that Representative Danny Davis, who I
understand is on his way, Representative Daniel Lipinski, who
also is on his way, Representative Jesse L. Jackson, Jr. of the
2nd Congressional District, and Congressman Steve Cohen of
Tennessee's--what district?
Mr. Cohen. Ninth.
Mr. Rush [continuing]. Ninth Congressional District be
allowed to make opening statements and participate in witness
questioning during this hearing. And I would also like to note
the presence of my good friend, Representative Jan Schakowsky,
from the 9th District of Illinois, who serves as the Vice Chair
of this Subcommittee, who is with us today. And I'm also
grateful to the Honorable G.K. Butterfield, the representative
from the 1st District of the great state of North Carolina, who
is traveling here to spend time with us in our wonderful city.
In addition, I would like to request a unanimous consent to
any of the statements that are being submitted by families,
loved ones, and friends of those buried at Burr Oak Cemetery in
the record of today. This record shall remain open for 30
calendar days from today for the submission of said statements.
Ms. Schakowsky. No objection.
Mr. Rush. Without objection, we have unanimous consent
request and their entirety are approved. Before I ask Vice
Chairman, the Honorable Jan Schakowsky, to present her hearing
statement, permit me to say that I'm elated to see so many
local, state, and elected officials who also came out to be
with us this morning, and I want to thank you for coming. I
look forward to hearing the testimony from all the stated
witnesses who are here today. Time does not permit all who
would like to testify to do so. Again, all witness statements
should be submitted within the next 30 days.
In closing, my heart and prayers, as well as my condolences
and prayers from my own family, go out to those whose families
have been directly affected by the horrible actions performed
at Burr Oak. May God bless you and keep you through these
painful and challenging times.
I would like, now, to recognize the gentlelady from
Chicago, the Vice Chairman of this Subcommittee, our own
representative, Jan Schakowsky, for five minutes, for the
purposes of opening statements.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JANICE D. SCHAKOWSKY, A
REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF ILLINOIS
Ms. Schakowsky. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman, and thank
you for conducting this hearing. This is clearly a situation
that cries out for a remedy. Think of the crying, the tears
over the deathbeds that were shed at Burr Oak Cemetery as loved
ones were put to rest, and then imagine the tears that were
shed in finding out about the atrocities that occurred there
for the loved ones who were thought to be in their final
resting place.
I heard from constituents, as well, particularly the Herd
family, Beatrice Herd and her mother, Rose Herd. They contacted
our office to inform us that they had multiple family members
who were buried there, and that they were trying to find where
the bodies were located. They went to the cemetery when the
news unfolded and found that the graves of a son, a daughter,
and mother were covered by a dumpster. They hadn't been able to
find out any information on the location of the children or the
mother's body, and our constituents told us that they have
children and sisters and brothers and aunts and uncles who are
all buried there.
Several years ago, Mrs. Herd went to Burr Oak's to order a
headstone for her son and daughter and mother, and, while at
the cemetery, a worker looked at the map and said, quote,
Someone is buried on top of the others in that grave, unquote.
And that day, Mrs. Herd went to see the manager, who said it
wasn't true; that the bodies were in separate graves. And to
make matters worse, after the headstones were ordered, they
were placed in a location that was not where the bodies were
originally buried; they were placed on a road in the cemetery.
When Mrs. Herd inquired with the manager, the manager said,
``Oh, you're mistaken. The bodies were buried by the road.''
Mrs. Herd states that she knows where her children were buried,
and that they were moved. She said, ``I would never have buried
my children where cars could roll over their grave.''
I think the reason that the story has resonated with so
many people is that there isn't a family who hasn't experienced
a situation in a cemetery, at a funeral, visiting a grave. Is
there anything that more deeply impacts families than this kind
of situation, and can picture themselves at the burial site,
remembering and putting flowers and tending a grave? And, as
the Chairman has said, this is not a situation that's unique.
The Committee has been provided with examples of other places
around the country where similar atrocities have occurred, so
it's not just a local or a state problem; it is a national
issue.
And, once again, Mr. Chairman, I thank you for bringing
this to everyone's attention so that we can, together, seek the
appropriate remedy in the law.
I yield back.
Mr. Rush. The Chairman thanks the gentlelady.
The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from the 7th
Congressional--2nd Congressional District, the Honorable Jesse
Jackson, Jr., for five minutes, for the purposes of statements.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JESSE JACKSON, JR., A REPRESENTATIVE
IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF ILLINOIS
Mr. Jackson of Illinois. Mr. Chairman, I'd like to keep my
remarks unusually brief, but let me first begin by thanking you
and the Vice Chairman of the Subcommittee, Jan Schakowsky, for
holding this hearing.
Like you, we've heard from hundreds of our constituents who
have raised concerns about the quality of care at Burr Oak in
light of the recent revelations. The horror is unspeakable,
it's unexplainable, and the events that occurred at Burr Oak
Cemetery clearly have crossed the line of criminal behavior.
Mr. Chairman, burial rituals are sacred in every major, and
even minor, religion. The First Amendment guarantees freedom of
religion. That freedom and fundamental right, through courts
like this one, have been extended to include the womb. And from
the unspeakable and unexplainable things that have occurred at
Burr Oak Cemetery, the Committee should consider whether it
should be extended to the tomb. A couple of ideas come to mind:
An inventory of existing plots at cemeteries all across this
country should be taken. And then, once those available plots
are sold, cemeteries should be open for visitation and for
maintenance only, and that does include the adequate
maintenance or monitoring of trust funds, to ensure that
cemeteries in perpetuity can have the quality of--and dignity
associated with those who buy their final resting place.
And, lastly, Mr. Chairman, I would argue that I hope that
this Committee would consider, at the appropriate time, the
idea that families who purchase plots should be deeded the land
to the burial plot. That is, families who have plans that
include monthly payments and insurance are entitled to a deed
for the land that they have purchased for the purposes of their
loved ones, recorded appropriately at the local level or
whatever appropriate level, to ensure that their plots remain
their land.
And, so, Mr. Chairman, these are some of the ideas that we
have heard from some of our constituents. I thank the Chairman
for his time, and I want to offer, in a very special way, to
not only my constituents but to all who find loved ones buried
at Burr Oak, that this unspeakable tragedy, in part because of
the lack of government oversight, has forced your families to
look once again at very painful moments in your family's
history. The time that it takes to overcome having lost a loved
one and to bury a loved one takes time, and for this
unfortunate event to occur forces us back into the pain body,
into a memory that we had thought we had long since overcome.
No words can truly express how members of this panel feel for
your families at this hour. My sincerest prayers and hopes are
that this will never happen to your family or any other family
again.
I thank you, Chair.
Mr. Rush. Chair thanks the gentleman.
The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from North Carolina,
Mr. G.K. Butterfield, for five minutes, for the purposes of
opening statements.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. G.K. BUTTERFIELD, A REPRESENTATIVE IN
CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA
Mr. Butterfield. Thank you, Chairman Rush and Vice Chair
Schakowsky, for inviting us to your hometown of Chicago,
Illinois. It's great to be here.
Also want to thank the many witnesses who are waiting in
line to testify before us today. Thank you very much for
coming, and thank you for your testimony.
Mr. Chairman, as I've told you privately, I've wanted to
come to Chicago this weekend to meet these families and hear
these witnesses, but, also, wanted to have an opportunity to
have dinner with my daughter last night, who lives here in
Chicago. She moved to Chicago on the day that the First Family
was leaving Chicago, on January 5th of this year. So it's good
to be here in Chicago for----
Mr. Rush. Is she registered to vote yet?
Mr. Butterfield [continuing]. An invi--pardon?
Mr. Rush. Did she register to vote yet? That's all right,
I----
Mr. Butterfield. I think she might be in Danny Davis's
district, Mr. Chairman. But thank you for this gracious,
gracious invitation.
Mr. Chairman, after learning of the horrific acts that have
taken place at Burr Oak Cemetery, I find this hearing to be one
of the most important hearings that this Subcommittee has
conducted in this session of Congress. As you know, Mr.
Chairman, in my life before Congress, I was both a trial judge
and a practicing attorney. As an attorney, I've represented
several funeral homes and one cemetery. As a superior court
judge of my state, I presided over many cases involving the
occasional misconduct of the funeral industry. And, so, I have
somewhat of a working knowledge of this subject matter.
The Federal Trade Commission--and we have a representative
here today from the FTC--has limited jurisdiction over funeral
homes and the funeral industry. The Funeral Rule, which was
created by the FTC, mandates that funeral homes must provide
price lists, disclose state requirements regarding embalming,
and provide information relating to the purchase of pre-need
funeral services. The funeral homes that I have had the
pleasure of working with take the federal rules seriously and
run their businesses in a respectable and honorable manner. It
is unfortunate that the Federal Rule does not--the Funeral
Rule, excuse me, does not apply to cemeteries, and it does not
apply to crematories and third-party sellers of funeral goods.
In fact, the FTC has no jurisdiction over these industries, and
that has been to the detriment of consumers across the country.
The illegal exhumation of men and women, of fathers and
mothers is perhaps the most egregious act someone can commit,
and this happened potentially hundreds of times by five
employees of Burr Oak Cemetery, located just outside of the
city. The sadness and the anger and heartbreak felt by the
families who have loved ones buried at this cemetery must be
almost too much to bear. Even those lucky enough to be
unaffected by these pitiful grave robbers are forever scarred,
always thinking that it could have been--just as easily been
their family member.
In less than a decade ago, we were all horrified to learn
that the Tri-State Crematory in the State of Georgia had been
piling bodies like trash all over the facility, and sending
cement to grieving families. That is awful. I pray that these
are isolated incidents, and that these activities are not being
repeated at any number of unregulated cemeteries and
crematories across the country.
Mr. Chairman, I believe a federal minimum standard by which
all cemeteries, crematories, and, to a lesser extent, third-
party sellers of funeral goods is not only a good idea, but it
is necessary. It is important that we give the FTC the tools it
needs to expand the Funeral Rule so that loved ones who have
passed away can be afforded the respect and care they deserve.
I am informed that 25 percent of the funeral contracts that are
issued, that are written in this country, arise from pre-need
arrangements entered into between consumers and funeral homes.
Consumers pay a large sum of money to have the satisfaction of
having a pre-paid funeral contract. I am told that states vary
in their treatment of these funds. Also, states vary on whether
the payments are refundable to the consumer. We need a uniform
regulation on this subject, as well.
Mr. Chairman, thank you, and I thank the panelists for
being here today. I know how painful it may be and must be for
you, but, hopefully, this process can help you feel better,
and, hopefully, we can prevent this type of activity from
happening again.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
Mr. Rush. The Chair thanks the gentleman.
The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from the 9th
District of Memphis, Tennessee, Mr. Steve Cohen, for five
minutes, for the purposes of opening statement.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. STEVE COHEN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN
CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF TENNESSEE
Mr. Cohen. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I appreciate,
certainly, being here with the members of the Committee in this
great City of Chicago. The City of Memphis is intimately
related to Chicago through the Yellow or Central Railroad and
Chicago's Southern Airlines, and, in my personal situation,
even more so.
My mother was--lived in Chicago, went to Bowen High School,
met my father when he was a resident of Michael Reese Hospital,
and this was the first major city I ever visited. When I was
seven years old, we came in on the train. We took a cab out at
Chicago Art Institute, where I saw those iconic lions where my
mother had gone to school. And, on the way there, we saw--I saw
a sign on the store, and it said ``Memphis Pork,'' and I felt
at home, and I still feel at home in Chicago.
My grandparents immigrated to this country from Lithuania.
And, this past year, I had the opportunity to visit Lithuania.
One of the issues there is that there was a large area that was
a Jewish cemetery for centuries that has been covered by a
building built by the communist regime in Lithuania. It's a
major issue that those graves have been disturbed and that the
communists built a structure over them. No knowledge of what
happened to those graves.
When I was there, I thought, ``Is it possible that some of
my great-, great-, great-grandparents could have been there?''
And it bothered me. My mother's mother was somebody who we
really didn't know. My mother was orphaned when she was in
Chicago at age six. She never saw her mother again. I
researched through the Internet and found out that she had
passed in Miami in about 1976, and that she was buried in a
pauper's grave in Miami. I know not where it is because there
was no marker, but it would bother me to know, even though I
never knew my grandmother, that her grave would be disturbed,
and, even though it was a pauper's grave in Miami, that there--
and there's no marker, that something could happen to that
spot.
The desecration of bodies in our past is important and
shouldn't be allowed to occur, so it's important that Chairman
Rush has this Committee meeting, and what happened at Burr Oak
could happen anywhere. I have a constituent, Ms. Rochelle
Payne, who has ten relatives at Burr Oak. She is disturbed and
was interviewed on the local television about this issue.
The situation in Georgia is right outside the lines of the
State of Tennessee, where I was a state senator, and that was a
terrible injustice and crime that occurred there. At first
blush, you'd think the cemetery industry should be regulated by
state laws. And, at one time, cemeteries were local, and,
still, there are lots of churches that bury on their
properties, and it's a local situation. But, as we become more
and more of a national country, and people have moved and
commerce has changed, cemetery ownership is so often involved
with somebody outside the state, and a for-profit industry. The
cemeteries are bought and sold, and, because of the changes in
the way that our society operates in commerce, it's important
that we have regulation over the cemetery industry and not let
somebody from out-of-state, or even in-state, have control over
the remains of our loved ones and possibly disinter them or
desecrate those graves. So it's an important national issue. I
appreciate Chairman Rush calling it.
I want the people of Chicago to know that people all over
the country felt this was an injustice, and that remedy should
be had, and that what happened here in Chicago has happened in
other places, where we've had disturbances at cemeteries and
the lack of maintenance at cemeteries, often African American
in my city, and this needs to stop. So I thank the Chairman for
the opportunity.
I yield back the remainder of my time.
Mr. Rush. And the Chair thanks the gentleman.
Now, the Chair would like to invite the members of the
first panel of witnesses to the witness table: Pastor Don
Grayson, Mr. Dwight Robinson, Ms. Roxie Williams, and the
Honorable Reverend Jesse Louis Jackson.
It is the practice, the common practice of this
Subcommittee that we swear in the witnesses, and I would ask
the witnesses to please stand and raise your right hand. Will
you please stand and raise your right hand.
[Witnesses sworn.]
Mr. Rush. Please let the record reflect that all the
witnesses have answered in the affirmative.
We will begin with five minutes of opening statement, and
I'm gonna ask the families if you will go first, and then
Reverend Jackson will complete this panel's testimony.
Mr. Grayson--Dr.--or, Pastor Grayson is the great-grandson
of Dinah Washington, and he has other family members who are
buried at the Burr Oak Cemetery.
So, Pastor Grayson, we thank you for coming, and we welcome
you, and we recognize you now for five minutes of opening
statement.
STATEMENT OF PASTOR DON E. GRAYSON, SR., GREAT-GRANDSON OF
DINAH WASHINGTON, FAMILY MEMBER OF INDIVIDUALS BURIED AT BURR
OAK CEMETERY
Pastor Grayson. Thank you, sir.
To the Chairman and the distinguished Subcommittee panel, I
am honored to be before you today, and thank you for your
invitation. Although it is under the grim and tragic
circumstances of the events surrounding the historical Burr Oak
Cemetery, I am glad to be here.
My name is Revered Don E. Grayson. I am the pastor of
Greater Faith Tabernacle Church in Chicago, Illinois. I'm here
today for three reasons: One, as a pastor, I've looked in the
faces of those who have buried their loved ones, whether it was
from a sudden death or a long, debilitating illness, and walked
away from the graveside knowing that their loved--their family
members are resting in peace now, only to discover that now
there is a possibility that the resting place that many
families struggled to pay for has been disturbed and allegedly
resold for personal gain. I've counseled those who were
emotionally distraught for the second time, because, to them,
it is like reliving the loss all over again.
I've prayed and asked God for the words, but what do you
say to a mother who has lost her only son and has finally come
to have peace with his death, that someone now has re-opened
his grave and has taken his remains and just tossed them just
like trash? Or a wife who buried her husband and two children
in the same year, and is finally beginning to move forward? I
tell them what the word of God says: That you don't fear one
that can destroy the body, but fear one that can destroy the
soul. But there are those who won't hear that, who don't have a
pastor to counsel them. They're upset and they're angry because
this should not have happened. But I, like many other pastors,
have the awesome and difficult task of trying to heal those who
have lost faith, and ask the question that so many have asked:
Is nothing sacred, and why? And is anyone going to do anything
about it?
The second reason is as a professional. As a former law
enforcement officer, I realize that the world we live in is
filled with those who will take full advantage of the weak, as
well as the unprotected, when there is no law in place to
protect them, and when those that have rule are not governed
and held in accountability for that which has been placed in
their hands. We have laws, regulations, and annual, updated
reports on everything from animals and the forest to the
environment and toxic waste, but they're--but not our dearly
departed and their final resting places.
I realize the magnitude of the investigation that Cook
County Sheriff Tom Dart and the law, other law enforcement
agencies involved have, and he has handled it with
professionalism, care, and concern. I know that this type of
investigation must be handled with time and precision, and that
the public must be patient so that all of the facts will be in,
and that those responsible are brought to justice, and the
victims, living and deceased, can have peace and healing.
And, thirdly, my own personal experience; my own family who
has patronized the Burr Oak Cemetery for over 60 years. My
great-grandmother, Dinah Washington; my great-grandfather,
Reverend Dr. S.A. Grayson; my great-grandmother on my mother's
side, Ms. Idella Liddell; and great-grandparents, Dan and Ida
Sutton; and countless of others of my family, more than I could
even name, who have made their final, physical resting place at
the Burr Oak Cemetery. I must be honest in telling you that I
am emotionally affected, and, to some of the members of my
family, this has been devastating and overwhelming, because
there are family members who have headstones and can't possibly
be located, but there are others with no headstone and, now,
almost impossible to locate.
I implore you as a governing body, as the ones who have
been made stewards over this great country, that you would look
into this matter as if your own family members were involved,
as if your parents and ancestry had been disturbed. Put
yourself in the place of these families who now have to relive
the burden, the pain, the sadness, and the grief of death. I
ask that you would regulate laws to govern the cemeteries, and
then hold them accountable. I ask that you have annual
inspections of all cemeteries and their records, and that you
would force them to update their records and modernize them
from the first person laid to rest to the last, and that the--
even the private facilities have the similar, if not the same,
standards.
Mr. Chairman and panel, I thank you for this time.
[The statement of Pastor Don E. Grayson, Sr. follows:]
T4092A.001
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Mr. Rush. Thank you very much, Pastor Grayson.
Our next witness is Mr. Dwight Robinson, who has family
members buried at Burr Oak.
Mr. Robinson, we welcome you to this Subcommittee, and
you're recognized now for five minutes, for opening statements.
STATEMENT OF DWIGHT ROBINSON, FAMILY MEMBER OF INDIVIDUALS
BURIED AT BURR OAK CEMETERY
Mr. Robinson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Congressman Rush and other distinguished members of the
Committee, thank you for this opportunity to speak to you today
regarding the ongoing crisis at Burr Oak Cemetery.
My name is Dwight Robinson. I, like thousands of others who
have loved ones buried at Burr Oak, were in shock to hear that
hundreds and possibly thousands of graves had been desecrated.
Both my parents are buried at Burr Oak. My father, Leonard
Robinson, in 1983, and my mother, Vivian Robinson, in 1989. At
the time of their burials, it was my belief, and that of my
sister, that my parents would rest in peace. Unfortunately,
this tragedy has caused both of us to have to relive the death
experience all over again. This incident has resurrected what
should have been comforting memories; have now turned into
disbelief, confusion, uncertainty, and unnecessary anxiety.
Although I was able to go to Burr Oak prior to the Cook County
Sheriff and the FBI temporarily closing it, and although things
appear fine on the surface, there is still that element of
doubt as to whether what looks fine on the outside is still OK
on the inside of my parents' grave. We may never know if the
grave sites were actually disturbed. Even if we knew for
certainty that my parents' graves were never touched and remain
intact, there is still one unsettling emotion; that there are
other families that are also re-grieving the past; that there
are persons that have shown a callous disregard for the
sanctity of the sacred ground where many are laid to rest.
There are so many questions that remain unanswered, not
withstanding why anyone would do something like this to the
families and loved ones of others. If nothing else, one would
believe that something inside of these four individuals would
have been triggered. I have to believe that each of them at
least has one family member buried somewhere, and that they
would never have wanted something like this to happen to their
loved ones. One question that remains with me is, what will
happen to my parents' remains, as well as those of others,
should Burr Oak be permanently closed? Will we have to transfer
our parents to another cemetery? If so, how will this be
handled? Who would be responsible for payment? Until these and
other questions are answered, none of us who remain will have
full peace.
We all know that there needs to be better regulation of
cemeteries. In fact, most of us have known this for years.
However, those that we have put in place to provide such
regulations are too entrenched in allowing lobbyists to dictate
policies for the public. This should be a painful lesson to
everyone to acknowledge; that the acts of violence and
indifference to the deceased at Burr Oak were also an act of
violence and indifference to those families that are still
alive.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for your time, and the members of
this Committee, for your time and efforts towards this ongoing
crisis.
[The statement of Mr. Dwight Robinson follows:]
T4092A.003
Mr. Rush. The Chair thanks the gentleman, Mr. Robinson.
And, now, the Chair recognizes Ms. Roxie Williams, who has
family members that are also buried at the Burr Oak Cemetery.
And, Ms. Williams, we want to welcome you to the
Subcommittee, and you're recognized now for five minutes, for
opening statements.
STATEMENT OF ROXIE WILLIAMS, FAMILY MEMBER OF INDIVIDUALS
BURIED AT BURR OAK CEMETERY
Ms. Williams. I want to thank you, Honorable Congressman
Rush, and to the Subcommittee that has taken the time out to
hear from the families.
My name's Roxie Williams. And there may be some families
here that are not close to the young people in their family.
The generations don't know the contributions that the older
people in their family have made. That would not be my family.
Maybe there are some men who did not look after the development
and the education of their children, did not contribute to
their communities. That, too, would not be my father. Matthew
Williams served this country. Matthew Williams was a king in
his community. Matthew Williams served his family. On October
22nd, 1978, Matthew Williams was laid to rest at Burr Oaks. At
11 years old, 11 days after my birthday, I had to deal with the
tragedy and hold up a family; a little lion cub trying to roar
for a mother who had suffered a mental breakdown after losing
the support of her husband; trying to tell children what to do
next without having that father there to support the family.
We went through some traumatic times burying my father. As
you know, in our communities, even middle class, it came as a
financial burden to my mother. My mother worked ER at Cook
County, and worked a second job to make sure that things were
taken care of. My family rallied around my mother to bring her
safely back to a mental state. My grandmother and I picked
clothes, selected caskets. We paid a mint to bury my father as
the king that he was.
We have a thing that our family does; we don't forget our
loved ones. Every year, I would go, on his birthday, and put
flowers at the grave site. We had a big to-do when my father
died, because he had three different places we could have
buried him; one, because he was a veteran; two, because he's
the only child to his mother, and they wanted to be buried
together; and, three, because the family had prepaid for plots.
We decided to bury him with his mother, and she had decided
Burr Oaks would be that cemetery that they would lay together
at rest in peace. My mother selflessly laid my father next to
his mother. She had not passed at the time. She was the only
grandmother that pulled me through. For two years, I didn't
speak because it was such a traumatic thing for me.
My mother offered to buy a custom-made headstone for my
grandmother and my father so that I would have the memories.
And my last words spoken to him were the last words put on that
headstone. In 1993, after finishing high school and college, I
was pregnant and engaged, and I wanted to show my fiance who my
dad was. It's very hard coming up and you don't have a man to
present a new man in your life to. We went to the grave site
only to find that my father's headstone was not there. My
grandmother, who had passed two years after him, her headstone
was there. When I went to the office, they told me perhaps I
had the wrong information.
My mother struggled to put a customized headstone for me
and my brother and my kids' kids to know where our families
lay. We paid through our nose. My mother sacrificed food. She
sacrificed. The community came together to make sure a man who
had served that community was buried with dignity. And when I
got there, all he could tell me is that, ``No.'' I had to go
home to my mother's home, dig through death certificates, find
a little blue card to tell them where my father was buried. And
when I came back, the man who told me he was not there was on
vacation. The woman in the office had a--someone take me out to
that particular site. All that was there was grass and my
grandmother's headstone next to it. I knew then something was
wrong.
Being--having a baby, not having the finances to fight a
cemetery, to say that I know darn well where we laid my father,
and to have to come as an adult and fight with them about a
situation, that I came year after year--there is no way I would
forget the ground that my father lay on. Then to have them say,
``Perhaps we have lost the records.'' How do you find justice
for me, when you've lost the records of my only father? If I
had not been birthed and he had not signed that birth
certificate, and I needed DNA to prove who I was today, I would
be in trouble. How do I tell my son, who is now 16, about a
grandfather, and I cannot even take him to his last resting
place and know for sure that's where he was?
Can something hurt 31 years later? Absolutely. Can you take
this thing lightly? Absolutely not. Because the pain and the
wounds are still re-opened. Maybe my father has never meant a
thing to any of you. Maybe my grandmother being buried at Burr
Oaks may not be significant to anyone in this room, but they
meant the world. They were the cornerstones of us being able to
come through and be productive and positive human beings in
this society right now. We owe them that tribute. And, today, I
champion my family again on a tragedy of the same death that we
had 31 years ago.
Will I let it rest? No, because you have not let my father
rest. You have not let my grandmother rest. And as long as my
ancestors don't rest, this girl is not going to rest, until
there's something done about the criminal act. You have raped
us. You have robbed us. And you have nothing to say, but,
``Sorry we lost your loved ones' remains?'' It is not
appropriate. It is not something that I can take lying down,
and, as long as there's breath in me, I will support whatever
you all decide to do so that no other family, no other
grandchild, no other great-grandchild has to deal with what I'm
dealing with today.
And I hope, in my whole heart, if I do nothing else great
in my life, I hope that I make a difference for Matthew
Williams and Pearl Billips, who made a difference for me. And I
thank you today for allowing me that.
Mr. Rush. The Chair certainly thanks Ms. Williams.
[The statement of Ms. Roxie Williams follows:]
T4092A.004
T4092A.005
T4092A.006
T4092A.007
Mr. Rush. And, now, it is my privilege and my honor to
recognize one who needs no introduction, in that he is very
familiar in all the wards for justice across this nation and
across this world. He is someone who I have an endearing
relationship with, a loving relationship. For most of my life,
he's been a filler in my own life, and he's been a helpful
friend in my times of need. So it is my distinct honor to
recognize, for five minutes, for the purposes of opening
statement, the honorable, the reverend, the leader, Reverend
Jesse Louis Jackson, of the Operation PUSH.
STATEMENT OF REVEREND JESSE L. JACKSON, SR., FOUNDER AND
PRESIDENT, RAINBOWPUSH COALITION, INC.
Reverend Jackson. Thank you, Chairman Rush, Committee
members----
Mr. Rush. Will you turn your mic on.
Reverend Jackson. Thank you, Chairman Rush----
Mr. Rush. Thanks.
Reverend Jackson [continuing]. And to Committee Members
Jackson and Butterfield, Schakowsky, and Cohen.
Let me make one alteration here. Mr. Cohen said this was
the first major city he visited. It is the only one he visited;
this is Chicago.
This testimony is presented to this Congressional hearing
panel in response to the cemetery crisis at Burr Oak Cemetery
in Chicago, in Alsip, Illinois, which we believe may be
symptomatic of a national problem arising from the inadequate
regulation of cemeteries, casket companies, and grave diggers.
The Burr Oak crisis arose as a result of the State of
Illinois' failure to regulate the cemeteries and crematories
within its geographic boundaries. In my investigation, I have
discovered only one cemetery in the State of Illinois that
acknowledged that it has sold all of its available burial
space, and, therefore, cannot and will not take any additional
bodies. This is in contrast to Burr Oak Cemetery, which, with
the acquisition of additional land, the owners and operators
have continued to accept burial fees and purchases of pre-need
plots for the past several years. The Burr Oak paid-for plot
scandal investigation uncovered, so far, more than 300 bodies
or remains had been moved. Caskets and vaults have been dug up
and arbitrarily discarded to facilitate the resale of graves.
Burr Oak is owned by a holding company known as Perpetua,
which also owns and operates two other cemeteries; Cedar Park
in Chicago and another cemetery in St. Louis, Missouri. We're
not certain that the practices at Burr Oak and Cedar Park are
identical, but we do know that both cemeteries are under common
management. The owners are responsible, and the workers jailed
now could be the fall guys. We need to know.
We realize that the Burr Oak scandal is symptomatic of a
national problem that may arise if we continue through the
practice of not regulating cemeteries. We made the following
observations as a result of our research arising out of the
Burr Oak investigation:
The desecration of the moderate remains of Emmett Till's
casket further the pain and the humiliation, and the likes of
our dear sister, Dinah Washington, and Ezzard Charles and so
many more, one that's been a pattern of desecration of African
American cemeteries and burial grounds as evidenced by the
African burial ground located on Wall Street in New York City.
Two, there has been a major impact on cemetery expansion in
urban areas as a result of the use of eminent domain laws to
acquire cemetery property for use in expanding highways.
Three, the failure of state legislatures to appropriate
funds to ensure proper and adequate burials of indigent
citizens. There's an attempt on this session of budget long--to
no longer pay for the burial and funerals of public aid
recipients. We have a struggle with that even as we talk today.
Cemetery records are often poorly maintained and managed.
Presently, all states, including Illinois, regulate funeral
directors and funeral home owners and embalmers, but do not
regulate cemeteries or its owners.
There's no common repository for death and burial records
that would permit online searches. To this date, there are 6600
cemeteries in the state, with 900 on regulation. Others have
private or religious domain.
Members and directors of RainbowPUSH are therefore calling
on this panel to:
One, conduct a review of all state laws and regulate
cemeteries to determine similarities and differences in
regulatory status.
Two, promulgate national cemetery regulation that results
in a national funeral database that includes data on the
funeral, the cemetery arrangements by owners, date, and name of
the deceased.
Three, initiate uniform cemetery regulation that designates
one agency with responsibility for licensing, regulating, and
maintaining cemeteries.
Four, enact federal legislation that creates a national
uniform death registry that includes the information regarding
the funeral and burial services and burial site of the deceased
on the death certificate that is readable and accessible
online.
Five, enact federal legislation that requires every state
to consolidate regulatory oversight in one state agency.
And, six, enact federal legislation that appropriates
sufficient funds for the funeral service and burials of
indigent persons.
The only modest consolation for all of this painful crisis
is that Burr Oak is the resting place, now disturbed bones, of
the deceased. The Lord alone has the souls in a vault that
cannot be disturbed by thieves. We constantly seek to offer
consolation to the bereaved families. Thank you.
[The statement of Reverend Jesse L. Jackson follows:]
T4092A.008
T4092A.009
Mr. Rush. The Chair thanks Reverend Jackson.
And the Chair now recognizes himself for five minutes--or,
for two minutes, for questioning, as we have an amount of
time--a limited amount of time. And the Chair wants to ask each
and every one of the witnesses. I can't forget the words of
your--Pastor Grayson, your grandmother. Is that your
grandmother or your great----
Pastor Grayson. Yes.
Mr. Rush [continuing]. Grandmother? Grandmother. The Psalm
that she said, ``What a difference a day makes.''
Pastor Grayson. Yes, she did.
Mr. Rush. And I just want to assure you and all the
panelists and all of the witnesses and all the victims today
that this day will make a difference. We're not here just for
the press. We're not here just for some type of show. We're
here to do the people's work, and this Committee will do the
people's work. Out of this hearing and additional hearings, we
will bring forth legislation, federal legislation, to set
minimum standards for the operation of cemeteries all across
this nation. What happened at Burr Oak, as you had said,
indicated, is just not symptomatic of just one place. It's
not--this is something that is occurring across this nation,
maybe not to the extent of Burr Oak, but it's certainly
happening all across this nation.
Pastor Grayson. That's right.
Mr. Rush. And we intend to look--get to the bottom of it
and provide for relief to the families.
Let me just ask you--and I'll ask all the witnesses to
chime in on this--do you see a federal role? And do you support
a federal role in providing for minimum standards for the
operation of cemeteries across this nation? And I'll say
crematories across the nation.
Pastor Grayson. Mr. Chairman, yes, I do. I do see a
significant federal role regulating cemeteries and crematories.
I think it would be advantageous on the part--for the
community. Situations such as what Ms. Williams has dealt with,
situations as to what some of the members of the congregation
and some similar others and other pastors have to deal with in
reference to trying to relocate, I think it would be a great
idea to do that. And I would support it.
Mr. Rush. Mr. Robinson.
Mr. Robinson. Thank you, Chairman Rush. I don't think
there's anyone that would not support federal legislation
across this country to regulate cemeteries and crematories. I
don't see, personally, and being a resident of the City of
Chicago and the State of Illinois, I don't see the ability of
the State of Illinois to be able to regulate these entities. It
is my personal belief that the best that the State of Illinois
can do is to license these entities. So, without the ability--
in my own personal belief, once again--of the State of Illinois
being able to regulate these entities, I think the only way
we're going to get across-the-board, sweeping regulations would
be through this Committee and through the federal government.
Thank you.
Mr. Rush. Thank you.
Ms. Williams.
Ms. Williams. It's my opinion that we should regulate the
cemeteries and crematories, because they have shown us that
they are not able to handle the enormity of their services
without some support, and I think it would be helpful to any
individual that would have to interface with this particular
industry; that they would have some assurances and ensurances
that things would be handled properly. And they would have
something tangible at the end of the business transaction that
they could also prove, you know, that there was a business
interaction with the cemeteries.
So I think that regulation, at this point, is warranted.
Mr. Rush. Reverend Jackson.
Reverend Jackson. Mr. Chairman, emotionally, when a loved
one dies, people often call their pastor and funeral director.
They're connected emotionally to their church, so often, and
the funeral director, and they are very publicly accountable.
Many of us distinguish between the funeral home and the
cemetery, and there is an absolute distinction between the very
regulated funeral home--the embalmers are licensed and trained,
and the health department and other agencies are involved--and
the cemetery. When that gate closes, there's just left family
and funeral home. It's that gap that leaves them to their own
devices that we saw in this situation.
Also, people often are forced to pay the cemetery to be
allowed to be buried, but are not forced the same way to have
to pay their funeral home. They may have to rape and scrape
money to pay the cemetery for burial right now, and get a late
payment, say, from Medicaid or some other agency, on their
loved one to run the funeral home and small business into a
great deficit. There's one funeral home that's owed a million
dollars in late payments, but has to handle and bury the poor.
The other part, of course, is that, without some standard
of human dignity regulation, the--within 48 hours, the doctor
must sign the death certificate. In 72 hours, the funeral home
must sign it. But, then, the cemetery only--it doesn't. It
drops. One should be able to go online and see ``X'' person
died on ``X'' day, death certificate signed by the doctor,
signed by the funeral director, cemetery they're buried at, at
such-and-such a place. That should be one line, but, right now,
that line does not exist.
Mr. Rush. OK. The Chair now recognizes the Vice Chairman of
the Subcommittee, Ms. Schakowsky, for two minutes for
statement--for questioning.
Ms. Schakowsky. I just want to, really, to express my
gratitude to this panel. I think everyone presented a very
important and helpful perspective, and I wanted to particularly
single out Ms. Williams for talking about, in the most eloquent
way I can imagine, the anguish of families, and how generations
can be affected by this, and I appreciate that.
I wanted to just comment on something that Reverend Jackson
said. There are lots of communities that are affected. We were
given examples of families with relatives at a Jewish cemetery
in Palm Beach, and another Florida cemetery. They were linked
by having--by being part of a national chain of cemeteries--of
for-profit cemeteries, which I think really does underscore,
too, the need for a national resolution, as well as--certainly,
would not preclude state and local regulation, as well.
But, again, I am greatly appreciative, and I think the
decision to have families first was an important one, Mr.
Chairman. Thank you.
Reverend Jackson. Mr. Chairman, one thing I forgot was,
often these huge, conglomerate cemetery homes are now buying up
large spots of land, and have the funeral services on the
property, and use it to undermine funeral home relationship.
So, the bigger they get, the more they push the family away. So
we have these services on this unregulated, for-profit
territory, which makes it even more difficult to manage.
Mr. Rush. Thank you.
The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from North Carolina,
Mr. Butterfield, for two minutes, for the purposes of asking
questions.
Mr. Butterfield. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I, too, would like to thank the four of you for your
testimony, and I agree with Ms. Schakowsky that, Ms. Williams,
your testimony was very helpful. I've sat in courtrooms and
Congressional rooms all of my adult life, and I've never heard
testimony more powerful or relevant. I understood every word
that you said. Thank you very much for your testimony.
Mr. Robinson, let me direct my questioning to you, if I
can, sir. Apparently, you have multiple family members who are
interred at this particular cemetery; is that right?
Mr. Robinson. Just my mother and my father.
Mr. Butterfield. OK. Does the family own an assortment or
an array of grave spaces, or do you have other grave spaces at
your disposal at this moment.
Mr. Robinson. No, sir. The plots were purchased at the time
of my parents' death. There are no other lots that were
purchased at Burr Oak. I don't have a lot out there, and
neither does my sister, at this time.
Mr. Butterfield. Do you recall how you purchased those lots
when--at need? What, was it through the funeral home, or did
you have to go directly to the cemetery.
Mr. Robinson. They were purchased through the funeral home
with my parents--the funeral home that we chose, my mother--my
father preceded my mother in death, and my mother chose the
funeral home where she wanted my father to be buried. And then,
once my mother passed six years later, we--my sister and I
decided to use the same funeral home for my mother, and to bury
my mother alongside of my father.
Mr. Butterfield. What is the practice now, if you know, in
the Chicago area, regarding cemetery sales, plot sales? Are
they advertised in the media, or is it generally done
exclusively through the funeral home.
Mr. Robinson. I really don't know the answer to that.
Mr. Butterfield. OK. Reverend Grayson, do you have any
information on that? Yes.
Pastor Grayson. What is the----
Mr. Butterfield. What is the practice in the Chicago area?
Pastor Grayson. Well, thank you, sir.
From my understanding, as a pastor, whenever someone dies,
they generally contact the funeral home or a pastor. The
pastor, in turn, would suggest a funeral home in which they
might be affiliated with or have association with, and they
would send them, actually, to that funeral home.
As Pastor--as Reverend Jackson has said, pastors and
funeral homes sometimes work cohesively together.
Mr. Butterfield. That's pretty clear. That's the same thing
in my hometown, but I'm trying to get from the funeral home to
the cemetery. Can you illuminate on that for me?
Pastor Grayson. Well, from what I understand, as dealing
with it, the cemetery would--or, rather, the funeral home would
ask the family what cemetery would they like to be buried in?
Would they likely have a family crypt or something like that.
In that turn, they--the funeral home--I've dealt with Leak and
Sons. They would take us out to the cemetery and have the
family to deal with the cemetery one on one. The funeral home,
to my knowledge, has no dealings with the cemetery as far as
pricing or that type of thing.
Mr. Butterfield. And, so, the funeral director would
facilitate the arrangement between the cemetery and the family.
Pastor Grayson. They would basically just ask----
Mr. Butterfield. They basically stay out of the
transaction.
Pastor Grayson. That's correct.
Mr. Butterfield. OK. That's generally the practice of
Chicago; is that right?
Pastor Grayson. Yes.
Mr. Butterfield. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you for
your time. I'm gonna yield back.
Mr. Rush. The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from the
2nd District of Illinois, Mr. Jackson, Jr., for two minutes,
for the purposes of questions.
Mr. Jackson of Illinois. Mr. Chairman, I don't plan to use
up all my time, but I certainly want to begin by thanking Ms.
Williams for the very emotional testimony, and for the way in
which it was perceived by this Committee.
I'd like to direct my questions, in furtherance of Mr.
Butterfield, to Mr. Robinson and Mr. Grayson. Are you aware of
whether or not, when you purchased the plots at the cemetery,
whether or not that land was deeded to your family,
specifically, as the final resting place of your loved one?
Mr. Robinson. Congressman Jackson, in my case, no, it was
not. All we received from the cemetery were the location cards
as to where my parents were buried. Fortunately, my sister and
I maintained all of our records of our parents, and I--when I
went to visit Burr Oak and visit my family's grave, we had the
burial cards and the locations. And even though there was some
damage around the location, it did not appear, to me, visually,
that there had been any serious disturbance of my parents'
graves.
But we were not given any deeds or anything; only the lot--
the cards. As Ms. Williams said, she was given a pink card, and
I can only assume that men who are buried are given blue cards,
and women who are buried are given pink cards. And, so, my
father has a blue card, and my mother has a pink card, and
that's what we used for a location.
Mr. Jackson of Illinois. Mr. Grayson.
Pastor Grayson. Thank you, Congressman. As far as I can
understand,--I don't really know too much of that, as far as a
deed is concerned. I know, in some members of my family, they
had pre-arrangements as to their purchasing the plots prior to
their death, and I think they received some type of paperwork
in reference to that. And whenever someone dies, we take that
particular paperwork to the cemetery, and they retrieve that
particular plot.
Mr. Jackson of Illinois. I guess what I'm getting at,
Reverend Grayson, is that, a bereaving family, when they
purchase a cemetery plot, operates under the assumption that
this is the final resting place----
Pastor Grayson. That's correct.
Mr. Jackson of Illinois [continuing]. Of their loved one,
and that the purchase of that plot is, essentially, the final
resting place of that loved one.
Pastor Grayson. That's correct.
Mr. Jackson of Illinois. That's their land, essentially,
for the purposes of that plot in the context of the memorial
garden. Is that your understanding?
Pastor Grayson. To my understanding, when you purchase that
plot, it's your plot. When you purchase that particular--I have
family members who have made pre-arrangements and have
purchased several plots. The whole Grayson family, next to my
grandmother, Dinah Washington, all of them are right in
together, along with several other relatives. Those plots were
purchased, so that land, assuming they cannot be touched, is
not supposed to be touched.
Mr. Jackson of Illinois. There's no expectation that
someone who's buried in a crypt, that somehow, once that crypt
space is purchased, buried above the ground, that somehow,
underneath that space, you might find additional graves to be
sold. You have----
Pastor Grayson. I haven't----
Mr. Jackson of Illinois. You own that land that you bury
your loved ones on.
Pastor Grayson. That is the assumption; yes.
Mr. Jackson of Illinois. That's the assumption. And there
are documents within the memorial garden, we are arguing,
should be maintained to show that that is essentially your
family's----
Pastor Grayson. Memorial Gardens, or Burr Oak.
Mr. Jackson of Illinois. A memorial garden.
Pastor Grayson. OK.
Mr. Jackson of Illinois. I'm using the term ``memorial
garden,'' not specifically, but Burr Oak, specifically, but the
idea of a memorial park.
Pastor Grayson. Absolutely. Yes.
Mr. Jackson of Illinois. I think my final question, Mr.
Chairman, to pick up on something that--Representative
Butterfield raised the question. The idea of maintaining these
plots, is that something that the families maintain, or is the
expectation, when you purchased the plot, that, in perpetuity--
forever--the grass will be cut, the headstones will be
maintained, that there will be a certain amount of dignity
associated with the expectation of an undisturbed tomb.
Pastor Grayson. Well, to my knowledge, Mr. Congressman,
when you purchase that plot or that section where your final
resting place is for your family members, it is the assumption,
again, of the family that the cemetery is to maintain the
actual grave of land--property, because that's basically what
they're getting paid for out of the money that they've received
from these cemetery plots. I'm--I don't think I have any
assumption or that I'm really thinking that you're supposed to
come out there and cut the grass.
Mr. Jackson of Illinois. Yes. Let me make one final
comment, Mr. Chairman. I know my time has expired, but it's
something else that Representative Butterfield said; that when
these payment plans are made, are they made to the funeral
homes, or are the payment plans made to the cemeteries
themselves? Or does the payment plan include the burial plot as
well as the funeral arrangements themselves.
Pastor Grayson. I have no knowledge of that, sir.
Mr. Jackson of Illinois. Thank you.
Mr. Rush. All right. The Chair now recognizes Mr. Cohen for
two minutes.
Mr. Cohen. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I just join Ms. Schakowsky and others who mentioned Ms.
Williams' testimony. She brought it to a personal level, and,
in my opening statement, I talked about some theoretical
things, about relatives I didn't know, and that disturbed me.
It bothered me, but, in the personal level, it's much more
germane. And the fact is, 200 years ago, when we had our
Constitution and we had a Fifth Amendment, and we talked about
states having prerogatives over certain issues, cemeteries
weren't owned by companies outside of state border; they were
generally churches or synagogues or other groups that had the
cemeteries and kept them at home, and they were subject to the
goodwill of their neighbors. That no longer exists. So this is
a time when we need to have federal legislation on cemeteries.
The name of this cemetery company, Perpetua, is so ironic,
because there was nothing perpetual in what they did; it was
fraudulent, it was a breach of trust, and there should be
penalties and some type of appropriate remedy for the
relatives.
I yield back the remainder of my time.
Mr. Rush. Thank you.
Reverend Jackson. Mr. Congressman.
Mr. Rush. Reverend.
Reverend Jackson. Another piece that we--as we began to dig
the stuff up, was the--there's a perpetual fund. The cemetery
has that fund; use it like a pension fund. And about 12 years
or so ago at Burr Oak, they had to change companies because of
the violations of the perpetual fund.
Also, distinction between stacking bodies is somehow being
permitted, even at, say, Lincoln, down in Springfield; a
husband and wife may--they should be buried, too, in that way.
The distinction between stacking and desecration, which is not
permitted, and we're also finding small print, something like
20-year leases as opposed to deeds, and that's where we wonder
the idea of what's the run-out times opposed to the eternity?
What's the run-out time before cemeteries can do to bodies;
that there is some fine print stuff that we never quite deal
with in the grieving state, but it's way beyond--I want to
make, again, distinction between funeral home stops at the
gate, and the cemeteries have their own rules. They're licensed
to the extent that you can--you have a right to bury in that
place, and you can't bury some other place.
Mr. Jackson of Illinois. Reverend Jackson, let me just say
that I--having buried our own loved ones, I don't think any
funeral--any plot that we've ever purchased as a family, that
there's ever been an expectation that, after 20 years, somehow,
it runs out; that this is a leasing arrangement. This is sacred
space. Of course, you know that. Your mother and father are in
a sacred space. But there was no expectation that, in 20 years,
we need to go as a family and research, as Ms. Williams
indicated, whether or not the families are there. And, so, I
think, Mr. Chair----
Reverend Jackson. You pick up these cemetery contracts,
you're gonna find some stuff that's beyond ordinary
imagination/expectation.
Mr. Rush. Right. The Chair would like to inform all who are
concerned that the second panel will delve more extensively
into this particular area of the different types of contractual
arrangements. There are leasing arrangements that exist that
the consumer might not be aware of, the terms of the contracts
that the consumer might not be aware of, but they sign them
anyway because of the environment in which they negotiate. So,
these are the kind of contracts, and this kind of behavior the
second panel will undertake and try to inform the Subcommittee
of.
The Chair wants to thank the witnesses again for your
testimony, but before--wait. I just--please forgive me. The
Chair now--before we dismiss these witnesses, the Chair would
like to recognize the gentleman from the 7th Congressional
District, a man who has shown leadership throughout the years
on this and other matters that faces the American people,
Congressman Danny K. Davis, of the 7th Congressional District.
Congressman Davis, we'll recognize you for two minutes, for
the purposes of questioning the witnesses. And, if you have an
opening statement, we will include your opening statement in
the record by unanimous consent.
Mr. Davis. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. And let me,
first of all, commend you for calling this hearing, and also
commend you for the tremendous leadership that you have
provided on a number of issues, especially those related to
Consumer Protection.
I also want to thank our colleagues for coming from out of
town, Representatives Butterfield and Cohen, to be with us this
morning.
The one question that I think I will ask, and it's
difficult to find ways to provide additional oversight and ways
to look for what could have happened that would have prevented
this tragedy from occurring.
Reverend Jackson, I'd like to ask you a question. I know
that you have been accused of having the ability to look
through muddy water and sometimes see dry land. The question
that I wanted to ask you is, can you think of any additional
levels of oversight, at either the local or state levels, that
might have been able to prevent this tragedy from occurring and
would not have necessarily cost the taxpayers a large sum of
money?
Reverend Jackson. Well, they have to keep books consistent
with death certificate and funeral home, and that would be--
anything could happen, because, maybe that way, family members
and funeral directors can serve as, kind of, a check and
balance.
Maybe, if it were a federal crime to desecrate bodies in
this way, or manipulate remains, that would raise the--you
become a terrorist with this kind of behavior. I would think
that after you have heard both of these sets of witnesses today
and see that Burr Oak just opens up a national wound--we've
seen this desecration with the crematory in northwestern
Georgia that was mentioned today, the Jewish cemetery in
Florida, and I would like to think you would take--that you
would run out to the best of your elected officials to try to
figure out some remedy. But we do know that the embalmers are
licensed, have to go through real training. The funeral
directors have to go through hell and all kinds of training,
but the cemeteries are largely just land purchasers who let
burials take place on their land.
Of course, in this case, you mentioned, Mr. Cohen, there's
absentee landlords. They have not surfaced yet. They served a
subpoena to all the funeral directors, ``Give us all your
records. We'll go through them.'' An order that went back five
years. So, the funeral directors have had to take the burden of
hiring extra people, digging up records. I mean, the burden
shifted back to the funeral directors, but the owners of the
cemeteries, so far, have not yet surfaced.
Mr. Davis. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. And I thank
the Reverend Jackson for his answer.
Mr. Rush. Again--thank you, Congressman Davis.
Again, the Chair thanks the witnesses, and I want to
reiterate that the record is open for 30 days. If you have
additional commentary that you might want to submit, you have
30 days in order to get that into the record.
Thank you so very much, and God-speed to each and every one
of you.
The Chair now calls the second panel to the witness table.
The Chair would now like to introduce the second panel.
Beginning on my left, Mr. Chuck Harwood is the Deputy Director
of the Bureau of Consumer Protection for the Federal Trade
Commission. Seated next to Mr. Harwood is the Honorable Daniel
W. Hynes, who is the Illinois State Comptroller and a leader on
this particular issue. Next to Mr. Hynes is Mr. Joshua Slocum,
who's an Executive Director of the Funeral Consumers Alliance.
Seated next to Mr. Slocum is Mr. Harvey Lapin, who's the
General Counsel of Illinois Cemetery and Funeral Home
Association.
And seated next to Mr. Lapin is the honorable Spencer Leak,
Jr., who's the--of the Leak and Sons Funeral Home. He's one of
the sons of the Leak and Sons Funeral Home.
I certainly want to welcome each and every one of you here
to witness before this Subcommittee, and we will begin with you
providing five minutes, for opening statements. You're
recognized now for five minutes, beginning with Mr. Harwood.
STATEMENT OF CHARLES HARWOOD, DEPUTY DIRECTOR, BUREAU OF
CONSUMER PROTECTION, FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION
Mr. Harwood. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My name is Charles
Harwood, or Chuck Harwood. I'm, again, the Director in the
Federal Trade Commission Bureau of Consumer Protection. I
submitted a written statement to represent the views of the
Commission. I bring my whole testimony today, and answer any
questions. The views I will express will be my own.
The Federal Trade Commission, first of all, expresses its
deep condolences to the families affected by the heartbreaking
events of the historic Burr Oak Cemetery. As Ms. Williams has
made so very clear, the families and friends of those buried at
Burr Oak pain that has dulled has been resharpened, depressed
sorrows been reignited. The FTC understands that, and does,
indeed, express serious and deepest condolences for the pain of
these people.
On behalf of the FTC, I want to thank Mr. Chairman for
convening this hearing and inviting the FTC to testify. We want
to work with the Subcommittee in looking for ways in which we
can use our law enforcement authority, rulemaking authority,
and experience and expertise to respond to this tragedy.
Also, on behalf of the FTC, Mr. Chairman, I want to commend
the thorough and rapid response of the law enforcement
authorities to the disinterment and desecration at Burr Oak
Cemetery. There's ongoing criminal investigation at the
Illinois Attorney General's Office and the Illinois
Comptroller's Office to file a lawsuit to enforce Illinois
consumer protection law. The FTC is prepared to cooperate and
assist with these agencies.
Also, Mr. Chairman, to the extent additional relief is
called for in connection with these law enforcement actions,
the FTC is prepared to investigate and, if appropriate, bring
additional actions.
As the Subcommittee well knows, Congress has charged the
FTC with protecting the American consumers from fraud, deceit,
and other injurious practices. Since the 1980s, the FTC's
Funeral Rule has been the center of our consumer protection law
enforcement efforts in the so-called death care industry. The
Funeral Rule is a cost disclosure rule. For example, when a
consumer visits a funeral home, the Rule requires that the
funeral director provide the consumer with a general price
list, which shows the price of each funeral good and service
offered.
Funerals are among the most expensive purchases many
consumers make. The Funeral Rule enables consumers to take time
in extraordinary stress to make informed purchasing decisions,
but the Funeral Rule probably does not, as it's currently
written, apply to the awful events at Burr Oak Cemetery.
However, I'm here to offer some other options, as we look
forward to working with the Subcommittee on how these options
can be utilized in the future.
First, as I've already stated, the FTC is ready to
investigate the activities at Burr Oak as possible unfair,
accepted acts or practices under the FTC Act should that prove
warranted in light of the Illinois criminal and civil
enforcement actions.
Second, the FTC could address such activities as we've
heard about Burr Oak through our Rule. However, because the
FTC's rulemaking procedures are cumbersome as they're currently
written, despite the time-consuming effort, and, to be honest,
there are also other problems with using that approach.
Third, the FTC's often used workshops, hearings, and
studies to promote better protection for consumers. The FTC may
be able to use these same tools to explore problems and
solutions to the terrible tragedy we heard about today,
including learning more about what state and local authorities
are doing with regard to problems such as this, and discussing
whether there might be a role for federal government, a role
for models, or other kinds of solutions.
Finally, the important part of the FTC's consumer
protection program is the education of consumers and
businesses. With respect to the Funeral Rule, the FTC has
published materials in English and Spanish to help consumers
understand their rights and help businesses understand their
legal obligations. Better education of consumers about
cemeteries and burial options, and address questions such as
those that we heard Reverend Jackson raise about looking at
contracts and what they mean, there may well be a role here for
additional consumer education, and the FTC's prepared to
undertake a new consumer education initiative if that appears
to be helpful.
Mr. Chairman, the FTC welcomes the opportunity to work with
the Subcommittee and its staff on these options. We want to do
what we can to ensure others do not experience the profound
grief the families with loved ones buried at Burr Oak Cemetery
have been forced to endure. Thank you, sir.
[The statement of Mr. Charles Harwood follows:]
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Mr. Rush. Thank you.
The Chair now recognizes the Comptroller of the State of
Illinois, the Honorable Daniel W. Hynes, for five minutes.
Welcome and--Comptroller Hynes, you have--you're recognized
for five minutes.
STATEMENT OF HONORABLE DANIEL W. HYNES, ILLINOIS STATE
COMPTROLLER, OFFICE OF THE COMPTROLLER
Mr. Hynes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, members of the
Subcommittee. I appreciate the invitation here today, and am
very glad that the federal government and this Subcommittee, in
particular, is taking a look at this issue, because we
certainly have great concern about the lack of oversight and
regulation of the cemetery industry. And I also want to express
my deepest sympathy for the families and friends who have gone
through this tragedy, who had to suffer the loss of a loved one
for a second time.
As I went to the cemetery and visited with family members,
their grief was overwhelming. Their frustration, their anger,
their disappointed--their confusion was absolutely clear, and
they're looking for answers, and I think that they're going to
be comforted by the fact that this Subcommittee is taking a
look at this issue.
The tragic events at Burr Oak Cemetery serve as a
touchstone and a focal point for those of us in public office.
It provides a perspective and an orientation that has truly
reshaped the debate, at every level of government, on the
regulation of the death care industry. Thanks to recent media
reports, the public and policymakers are now acutely aware of
the gaps in the current regulatory system.
Let me begin, first, by describing that system and also
some things you may already know. Currently, the federal
government exercises very little regulatory authority and
oversight of the death care industry. The FTC provides some
consumer protections when dealing with funeral homes and door-
to-door sales, but, generally, regulation is left to the
states.
As members of the Committee explore this issue, you will
quickly find that state regulations vary widely from state to
state. Consumer disclosures, entrustment requirements,
licensing, inspections, recordkeeping requirements, the nature
of the real property interests involved, maintenance standards,
public health standards, permits, exemptions for certain types
of cemeteries are all varying widely state to state and they're
handled different ways; sometimes through a statute, sometimes
through common law, sometimes through local ordinance. This is
a fractured and sometimes even contradictory system of rules.
I do not hold myself out as an expert in comparative
cemetery law; however, I can speak to my experience in Illinois
in trying to address the very real concerns of consumers
dealing with the death care industry.
As Comptroller, my office has limited legal authority over
cemeteries, specifically focusing on consumer funds accepted by
the cemetery that are held in trust, with trust earnings to be
used for the care of the cemetery. The office also licenses
funeral homes and cemeteries that sell pre-need arrangements in
advance of death. Under those licenses, the pre-need funds are
held in trust until needed, to cover the funeral and cemetery
costs at the time of death. The office requires annual
financial reporting and conducts audits to ensure financial
compliance. Local government, religious, and fraternal
organization cemeteries register with the office, but are not
licensed or audited by the office because state law
specifically exempts them.
Thus, in Illinois, the Office of the Comptroller has a
limited role in overseeing entrustment at a limited number of
cemeteries and funeral homes.
The state Department of Financial and Professional
Regulation issues licenses for funeral directors and embalmers.
The state's Department of Health has certain regulations
pursuant to the state Vital Records Act concerning permits,
death certificates, and the like; however, there is no
regulation of most at-need sales, there is no real regulation
of cemetery maintenance, and there is, at best, minimal
oversight of non-trust fund recordkeeping. In short, there is a
regulatory vacuum in Illinois and, I suspect, many other
states.
A decade ago, when I was first elected Comptroller, I held
hearings around the state about cemetery and funeral home
issues. The most common complaint was inadequate and poor
maintenance of cemeteries. Thus, when we proposed legislation
reforms to address these concerns, we included a minimum
maintenance standard upon cemeteries. Unfortunately, that
provision did not make it through the legislative process,
largely, I believe, because of the influence of special
interests in the state Capitol. However, we were able to
successfully expand some consumer protections within the
limited areas of pre-need sales and care-funded entrustments.
Earlier this month, spurred by the impetus of the tragedy
at Burr Oak Cemetery, a broad group of people came together to
propose comprehensive legislation to address the regulatory
issues involved. Led by our office, we worked with RainbowPUSH,
the Cook County State's Attorney, Sheriff, and Recorder of
Deeds, individual legislators, staff, and others.
Unfortunately, our legislation stalled in the Committee.
Let me share the highlights of this legislation that we
proposed:
Number one, we would require all cemeteries and their staff
who sell cemetery plots to be licensed. Small cemeteries with
fewer than 25 annual burials would be exempted. The Illinois
Department of Financial and Professional Regulation, which
already licenses a wide range of professions, would issue
licenses and rules. Licensees would be required to adhere to a
code of conduct and undergo continuing education.
Second, cemeteries would be required to provide reasonable
maintenance based on enforceable standards detailed in both
statute and agency rules.
Next, cemeteries would be required to keep detailed records
and maps, file a copy of those records with the county recorder
of deeds, and provide the information to consumers.
Funeral directors would need to provide specific
information about burial locations and information that would
be available on the death certificate on file at the county
clerk's office.
Our legislation would create a consumer bill of rights,
including requiring cemeteries to provide consumers with a
booklet detailing their rights under law.
Also, our legislation would extend crime victims assistance
eligibility to family members of those who are victims of the
crimes charged at Burr Oak Cemetery pursuant to the Crime
Victims Compensation Act.
And, finally, the minimum threshold for the state's
allowance for indigent burials would be increased and provide
for a cost-of-living increase every fiscal year.
The text of our legislation is contained in Senate
Amendment 1 to Senate Bill 662, and is available on the
Illinois General Assembly's Web site.
I realize that criminals are oftentimes not deterred by the
laws we pass, but I believe that adequate regulations and
consumer protections can reduce the chances that we will ever
have to deal with another tragedy on the scale of Burr Oak
Cemetery.
Thank you very much.
[The statement of Honorable Daniel W. Hynes follows:]
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Mr. Rush. Chair thanks to the gentleman.
The Chair now recognizes Mr. Slocum for five minutes, for
an opening statement.
Mr. Slocum. Good morning.
Mr. Rush. Morning.
Mr. Slocum. Is this on?
Ms. Schakowsky. Yes.
STATEMENT OF JOSHUA SLOCUM, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, FUNERAL
CONSUMER ALLIANCE
Mr. Slocum. Thank you very much. I very much appreciate the
opportunity to speak to this panel today.
Funeral Consumers Alliance, for those of you who don't
know, is a national, non-profit federation of largely
volunteer-run educational societies that show people how to
shop around for funeral and cemetery purchases, tell them what
their legal rights are, show them wise planning that fits their
budget, and we act as a repository of consumer complaints and
industry practices around the country.
We receive probably 10,000 calls and e-mails a year, just
in the small national headquarters office that I work in, from
consumers all over the country, and I wish I could say that
this was a surprise to me, what happened at Burr Oak, but it is
not. And I hope that this will be one of the last times that I
am ever invited on behalf of FCA to speak on these issues.
We were involved in the 1970s and '80s in pushing for the
original adoption of the Funeral Rule, which is a landmark
consumer bill of rights the Federal Trade Commission's Mr.
Harwood mentioned. For more than 15 years, we have been asking,
both through the media, through our publications, through
Congressional testimony, and testimony before the Federal Trade
Commission, for the Rule to be expanded to cover cemeteries so
that at least consumers had the minimum legal disclosures, the
minimum right to printed prices and rules and regulations, and
this has fallen on deaf ears, despite the Menorah Gardens
scandal, the Jewish cemeteries in Florida, despite the Tri-
State Crematory disaster, which sparked Senator Dodd to propose
a bill in 2002 and 2004, which we assisted in researching,
which went to an unmarked grave, and this bill would have
finally codified the Funeral Rule. No, I recognize disclosure
rules by themselves are not going to prevent these tragedies,
but there needs to be a culture of accountability in cemeteries
that is woefully lacking.
Funeral homes have to meet minimums, as many of the other
witnesses have said. Cemeteries can get away with these sorts
of things with impunity. And I want to give you some examples
from other families around the country who don't get a chance
to be heard by Congressional Committees or by anyone, really,
because, as I was researching the cemetery regulatory agencies
around the country, very quickly, for this hearing, I found an
absolute hodgepodge. It's ridiculous. In some places, we have
the insurance commissioner regulates cemeteries. In other
places, the Vital Statistics Department ostensibly regulates
cemeteries. In other places, there's a dedicated cemetery
board. Some of them audit on site, most of them don't. Some of
them audit the burial records against the sales, some of them
don't. Some of them look to see whether the prepaid perpetual
care funds are there, some of them don't.
One thing is clear--I'm an expert in researching cemetery
and funeral law--your average grieving family has no chance at
all, in any state, of figuring out whether there's even an
agency to file a complaint with. This is well, well past time
for federal regulation. I have heard for many years, ``State's
rights. This is a state's rights issue.'' This cannot be a
state's rights issue anymore, particularly with so many
cemeteries owned by multinational or national chains.
So, let me tell you about a few things, please, that
consumers have told us. Problems are far deeper--it's terrible
to think of your loved ones being dug up. Nothing could be more
shocking. But there are simmering scandals that go on that have
to do with taking financial abuse of grieving people,
particularly the elderly, the mismanagement and stealing of
more than a billion dollars in consumers' prepaid funeral and
burial money just in the past three years.
So, the FTC Funeral Rule tells funeral homes they have to
give consumers price lists, they have to give them truthful
information, and they have to allow them to pick and choose
goods and services on their own. Cemeteries don't have to do
this, except in a minority of states. So we get situations like
Mrs. B, a widow from Virginia, who called about four years ago
and said she was shopping ahead of time for a cemetery plot in
the metro DC area, and the Jewish form of burial in a plain,
pine box without an outer concrete vault appealed to her. And,
so, she went to a cemetery and said, ``I didn't want a lot of
folderol, so I asked the cemetery if I could be buried in the
plain, pine box that they used next-door at King David Memorial
Gardens, instead of the polypropylene or the concrete grave
liners.'' And the saleswoman at this national chain-owned
cemetery, which also owns funeral homes, told her, ``The
federal government won't let you be buried in a pine box.
That's only for the Jews.''
Not only is that a deliberate lie--the government does not
tell you you can't be buried that way--but had that cemetery
been covered under the Funeral Rule, this would have been a
violation of the Funeral Rule the FTC could have at least
noted.
And just as important--if I can just finish up, please.
Thank you.
Mr. Rush. Sure.
Mr. Slocum. There is a national financial scandal going on
with prepaid funeral and burial money which must be addressed.
We have all had our eyes on Wall Street, and so many regulators
are now saying, ``We've got to take care of people on Main
Street because of the financial shenanigans going on at Wall
Street,'' and it's causing us to rethink the laissez faire
attitude that we've taken for so long.
What's going on in the--with prepaid funeral money--it's
all over my desk. I have a stack this high of news stories from
the past two years, and nobody, nationally, seems to be
connecting the dots. We have a company called National
Prearranged Services that sold burial and funeral services to
consumers in at least 19 states, 200,000 families. They are now
in receivership in the State of Texas basically for running a
Ponzi scheme, and the Special Receiver found that they have
almost a billion dollars in negative equity. That means a
billion dollars that they need to pay out for these eventual
funerals and burials, but they're not going to. Seventy million
dollars in Michigan, $21 million in Mr. Cohen's State of
Tennessee with Forest Hill Cemeteries, and on and on.
Again, a couple of the other witnesses--and they're right--
have said that there is no law that can be written that is
going to prevent criminal behavior in every instance, but we
can start deterring it and we can start curtailing it. But,
respectfully, I must disagree with Mr. Harwood and say a
consumer education campaign from the FTC is laudable, but it is
nowhere near enough. We have provided the Federal Trade
Commission, both in hearings in 1999 and in personal
communications, box after box after box of documented cemetery
abuses and funeral abuses for more than ten years, and to have
the FTC close the Funeral Rule review without extending it to
cemeteries in 2008 was shocking to us.
So, what we are asking, please, on behalf of every funeral
consumer, every grieving family in America, please bring all
death-related businesses under the Funeral Rule and codify the
Rule to give it a Congressional mandate; two, create national
minimum standards for recordkeeping and state regulation and
inspection of cemeteries, to give the states at least a
template to begin from; and, number three, please require
responsible, complete deposit of all consumers' prepaid funeral
and burial money uniformly across the board, and give consumers
the right to the transfer of that money or the refund if life
circumstances change.
Thank you very much.
[The statement of Mr. Joshua Slocum follows:]
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Mr. Rush. Thank you.
Mr. Lapin, you're recognized for five minutes.
STATEMENT OF HARVEY LAPIN, GENERAL COUNSEL, ILLINOIS CEMETERY
AND FUNERAL HOME ASSOCIATION
Mr. Lapin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for inviting
me.
I'm Harvey Lapin. I'm the General Counsel of the Illinois
Cemetery and Funeral Home Association, and I'm testifying here
on their behalf. As the Association, we strongly condemn the
crimes that have allegedly been committed at Burr Oak Cemetery.
What the involved employees apparently did violates everything
our industry stands for. Their actions were not only horrible
and appalling, they were criminal. ICFHA was established in
1928, and we have over 300 members covering the whole spectrum
in the different types of cemeteries in this country. We have
religious cemetery members, municipal members, fraternal
members, and small, family-owned cemeteries, small funeral
homes, combination funeral homes, all the way across the board,
and that is one of the problems that we have with regulating
the industry. There is a broad spectrum of different types of
cemeteries, and we can't paint them with the same brush. So
that's one of the areas of concern.
As far as Illinois is concerned, I was--we were shocked
when it was indicated that there were no laws in Illinois that
dealt with this problem, because that is absolutely not true.
The Illinois Cemetery Protection Act clearly applies to this
situation. And I must say, this is a criminal investigation,
and we must be very careful not to do anything to cause a
problem with that criminal investigation. However, the Cemetery
Protection Act clearly provides any person that willfully
destroys or damages the remains of a deceased human being or
desecrates human remains will be guilty of a Class 3 felony.
Two, any person that willfully removes any portion of the
remains of a deceased human being from a cemetery is guilty of
a Class 4 felony.
Three, any person who defaces or vandalizes, injures, or
removes a grave marker or memorial is guilty of a Class 4 up to
Class 2 felony, depending on the number removed.
This is the current law in Illinois, and I don't think
there's any question as to its application. We increased the
penalties in that law several years ago, and I think our
legislature now wants to increase them again. We have
absolutely no opposition to doing so. Each violation would be a
separate violation under that law, so you can take the
penalties, and they will be great against these people if they
are convicted. In addition to that, there are other laws in
Illinois that apply.
The Comptroller's here today, and the Comptroller's Office
has jurisdiction over cemetery laws and trust laws and other
laws that apply to the cemeteries in the state that are
covered, and directly told you that there are entities that are
exempt from that law. But, basically, the private-operated
cemeteries, including Burr Oak, are covered by that law. And
those laws can take felony-count penalties for certain acts,
which, after the dust has settled in this situation, it is
probable that Burr Oak will be subject to some of these
penalties.
We have provided you with a resource memo that has a lot of
information about the Illinois laws and also the position of
the Association on these issues. In addition, to the specific
cemetery laws that were violated, there are other laws of
Illinois that apply. We have criminal laws here. These people
allegedly engaged in theft of property, and they took the
property of other people and used it for some other purpose.
They engaged in theft by deception, all under the State's
Attorney and Attorney General's Office, and they are
investigating on that basis.
In addition to that, they violated, in our opinion, the
Unfair Deceptive Practice Law, which ties into the Federal
Trade Commission Unfair and Deceptive Practices. There is a
national standard, and each state has laws that interrelate
with that national standard. The Attorney General's Office of
the State of Illinois also administers that law, and if there's
a specific violation, the Cemetery Care Act and Cemetery's Pre-
Need Sales Act, the Attorney General's Office can incorporate
those specific violations under their law.
So, it is our position that there is extensive law in
Illinois that was violated here. The Association stands as a
resource to this panel and to any other panel, and we are here
to assist, because of this terrible problem, in helping the
families. And I, too, am very sad when I listened to the
testimony from a family member who had this problem.
The Association, we have a consumer complaint vehicle, and
you can contact us. ICFHA.org has the form for downloading. We
handle many complaints on a yearly basis. The Comptroller's
Office has a 800 number for complaints. Many times, they refer
complaints over to the Association to handle, because we're
able to deal with it better than they can, and deal with the
peer pressure. We've been very successful. There also is a
national complaint procedure that was established many, many
years ago.
[The statement of Mr. Harvey Lapin follows:]
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Mr. Rush. Thank you, Mr. Lapin.
The Chair now recognizes Mr. Leak for five minutes, for an
opening statement.
STATEMENT OF SPENCER LEAK, JR., LEAK AND SONS FUNERAL HOME
Mr. Leak. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
First of all, my heart goes out to all of the families
affected by the Burr Oak situation. Again, to Congressman Rush,
to your distinguished panel, Mr. Cohen from Tennessee, I'm a
cousin to Harold Ford, Jr. I know you know his family very
well.
As an African American funeral director, I'm appalled at
the crimes that have taken place at the historical Burr Oak
Cemetery. In addition to the number of people that meant so
much to so many, such as Emmett Till, Dinah Washington, and
members of the Negro League Baseball Team, my grandparents and
great-grandparents are buried there, as well.
How this happened, we hope to find out soon, as the
investigation continues. Why this happened, we may never know.
But, more importantly, could this have been prevented? My
answer is yes.
As a licensed funeral director and embalmer, I have gone to
and graduated from Mortuary Science School, passed the national
board examination, participated in a summer's internship, as
well as a year of apprenticeship. I have now been practicing
for almost 20 years; however, those who work at cemeteries in
Illinois and maybe even across the country are required to have
no formal educational training in the funeral service field at
all.
When someone makes their transition, a licensed funeral
director has to remove them from their place of death. If my
firm does otherwise, I can be fined and disciplined. When one
sits down to make funeral arrangements, they must be licensed,
or I can be fined and disciplined. If I don't give the family
an itemized price list, as required by the FTC, I can be fined
and disciplined. When a deceased is to be embalmed, one must be
embalmed by a licensed embalmer, or my firm can be fined and
disciplined. Finally, when a loved one is driven to the
cemetery, the deceased must be taken by a licensed funeral
director. If this does not happen, the funeral home can be
fined and disciplined.
So, why does the cemetery, then, have no regulated
responsibility? Funeral homes across the country are highly
regulated. Cemeteries should be, as well. Had Burr Oak been
under some type of regulatory responsibility, then I feel this
tragedy would never have taken place.
Thank you.
[The statement of Mr. Spencer Leak, Jr. follows:]
T4092A.047
Mr. Rush. We thank all the witnesses for their opening
statement. The Chair recognizes himself for two minutes, for
the purposes of questioning the witnesses.
Mr. Slocum, your testimony provides a vivid description of
many abuses that have taken place at cemeteries across the
country, and you make it crystal clear that the incident at
Burr Oak, while particularly horrendous, may not be an isolated
event. And if we are to start reforming our laws to curb some
of the abuses and injuries we've witnessed at Burr Oak and
elsewhere, where do you think we should start?
And let me ask you if you would direct your remarks,
beginning with the issue that was raised by the previous panel,
in that there are different contractual arrangements for
different lengths of time. Most of the consumers think and
operate on the--either their illusion or this is the fact--
that, when they purchase a plot, then that plot is theirs for--
--
Mr. Slocum. Correct.
Mr. Rush [continuing]. For eternity. Can you address that
concern, with the different types of contracts that are now in
practice by cemetery associations?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir. Before I was informed by a reporter
that there were these term contracts, or it was--there were
alleged to be these term contracts, where the grave would be,
in a sense, rented for a period of time, I had not heard of
that in the United States. That practice is not uncommon in
many European countries--the Netherlands, Greece--but this is
known. It's part of the culture. People can decide whether or
not they wish to rent a grave for a certain amount of time or
have it in perpetuity. I had not heard that here, so that was a
surprise to me. I can tell you that I have never--and I've
spoken to thousands and thousands of consumer families--I have
never talked to one who would make anything other than the
assumption that that grave was a permanent resting place. No
one.
Mr. Chairman, you asked me where would I start in terms of
regulation. I think reasonable people can disagree about the
details, or hash them out, but I think some broad, general
guidelines that would be reasonable would be: Number one,
starting at the bottom and bringing cemeteries up to the same
minimal standards of disclosure and written disclosures to
consumers, written disclosures about prices, about their rights
to pick and choose goods and services, and what those mean,
like Mr. Leak said. He's absolutely right; funeral directors
have to abide by these things, and, yet, regulatorily, we look
at cemeteries as if they are something else entirely.
The consumer sees the death-care transaction as all of a
piece; the cemetery, the funeral home, the crematory, the
third-party casket seller.
Secondly, state regulation of funeral homes is better than
that of cemeteries, but it is not so great, either. One of the
major problems for regulation of death care is the absolute
dominance by industry insiders. States where there are funeral
or cemetery boards that adjudicate consumer complaints and seg
rules, they are stacked to the gills with industry. North
Carolina, for example, Mr. Butterfield, I believe that there
are eight or nine seats on the funeral board in North Carolina,
and, by statute, two of the largest funeral trade associations,
the lobbying groups, can appoint a total, I believe, of six of
those, and the governor has to choose from those appointees.
This sort of insider dealing is not serving families, and
that's not the only--I don't mean to single out North Carolina,
and, certainly, you, sir, are not personally responsible for
that.
Mr. Butterfield. I appreciate that.
Mr. Slocum. But we see this all over the place. In fact, in
Georgia, where the Tri-State Crematory disaster happened in
2002, Georgia's response to this--to a consumer advocate's
perspective was nonsensical. What they said was, ``OK. We'll
say that crematories now have to deal only with funeral homes,
and we will achieve oversight, because funeral directors
themselves are regulated.'' There's nothing to say that
crematories who serve the public or cemeteries that serve the
public can't do so and be licensed and regulated on their own
terms.
And, in fact, political dealing has stopped cemetery
regulation from really getting to the place where consumers can
use it. Much of the oversight of cemeteries in Georgia used to
happen in the Secretary of State's Office, but political
maneuvering put a bill through in 2006 which took a lot of that
away from the Secretary of State and gave the regulation of
these cemeteries to a newly created cemetery board dominated by
cemetery owners. And, in fact, some of the things that funeral
homes could be fined by the FTC for doing--bundling goods,
saying, ``I won't give you a funeral service unless you buy my
casket in-house--states like Georgia say it's absolutely fine
for cemeteries; they can charge consumers $125 penalty for
buying a less expensive monument to save money on a loved ones'
funeral from outside the cemetery.
So we need some national standards, we need at least
disclosures, and we need some guidelines for the states that
would give them minimums on what to look for in recordkeeping
and auditing, both financially and in terms of the location of
graves. And it would be awfully nice if the federal government
would address the problem of regulatory capture so that
consumers had someplace to go to complain that wasn't a panel
of business owners representing the industry they have a
complaint against.
Thank you.
Mr. Rush. The Chair now recognizes the gentle lady from
Illinois, Ms. Schakowsky, for two minutes of questioning.
Ms. Schakowsky. Mr. Lapin, is your association that you--is
the association you represent the same as the one referred to
in Mr. Slocum's testimony, the Illinois Funeral Directors
Association?
Mr. Lapin. No.
Ms. Schakowsky. No. That's a different----
Mr. Lapin. This is a separate association, and we represent
a different group of individuals, and we have nothing to do
with the IFDA problem.
Ms. Schakowsky. OK. And are you suggesting, though, that
there is no more need for regulation because the industry is
sufficiently regulated? The cemeteries are sufficiently
regulated?
Mr. Lapin. I am not suggesting that. I am indicating that
there is a problem of regulation. Our Association represents a
very broad spectrum. The Comptroller indicated that a proposed
law was introduced into the senate of Illinois, and it got held
up. It was not held up by our association; it was held up by a
very large religious cemetery in the City of Chicago, because
they had not had an opportunity to review it.
So, this is part of the problem that you're going to be
dealing with, is you have a lot of varied interest. And I was
at a hearing for the Federal Trade Commission where the Arch
Dioceses cemeteries came in and basically said, ``You have no
right to regulate us.'' And that was their position, and it is
basically a separation of church and state that they're taking
that position. So this is the problem.
We actually worked on the bill that the Comptroller's
Office put in.
Ms. Schakowsky. OK.
Mr. Lapin. We got it late one night, and we went over it,
we made some technical changes, and we were ready and willing
to support it the next day in the senate.
Ms. Schakowsky. Thank you.
Mr. Harwood, first of all, let me say that, you know, you
began by congratulating the prompt response, and I would say,
in this particular instance, I would agree with that. But what
we're hearing is that this has been a lingering problem, and
that it needs to be addressed.
You had mentioned, as one of the possible ways, rule-
making, but you stated that it is a very cumbersome process,
and we keep running into that; this Committee--this
Subcommittee does. And I wondered if you would comment on the
burdens of the Magnuson-Moss Rule, in terms of, I mean,
consumers might think, ``Well, why doesn't the FTC just deal
with it?'' Can you describe the difficulty?
Mr. Harwood. Thank you, Representative Schakowsky.
The rule-making process the FTC currently operates under
requires us to go through multiple steps before we can write a
new rule or amend a rule. Last time we amended the Funeral
Rule, for instance, it took us about four years to do it.
Presumably, we are talking about something along that line
again if we attempted to do it again. It's simply not what most
people think of as a quick process; it requires hearings,
testimony, input from people. It also requires us to conclude
that there is a widespread problem, and it's a prevalent
problem facing us.
Ms. Schakowsky. Thank you.
Mr. Leak, we had a conversation before the hearing, where
you were saying that, while you have no control, at all, over
any cemetery, that you are now being swamped by calls of
recordkeeping that's not within your hands. So, would you
recommend that--how--what is your answer to that problem that
you face?
Mr. Leak. Thank you. When Reverend Jackson was here
earlier, he mentioned about death certificates having the plot
numbers and grave numbers on them. That was my idea that I gave
to him and to the Board--to the panel that the Governor has set
up.
In Illinois, the death certificates have now gone
electronic. The doctor has to go online and take care of
certain items. We, as the funeral home, have to go online and
file the death certificate. If, maybe within two weeks or so
after the burial of a loved one, the cemetery would be required
by law to go online and amend that death certificate with the
plot number, with the grave number, with the section number on
the death certificate, then, had this been happening already,
this problem wouldn't have come around.
Ms. Schakowsky. What do you think, Mr. Slocum? Or, is there
another way to handle the issue of information and disclosure
of where the plot is.
Mr. Slocum. Well, I'd have to think about it. I know that,
in many states, the death certificates have required--there's
a--I don't know what--you know Illinois' better. It says
``Place of final disposition.''
Mr. Leak. Only the cemetery----
Mr. Slocum. It should--it says, ``Only cemetery.''
Mr. Leak. Right.
Mr. Slocum. I would wonder, technically, how feasible that
would be, because what I've seen is----
Ms. Schakowsky. Well, let me ask you this then: How would
one assure that people could find out that information?
Mr. Slocum. Well, I think the recordkeeping needs to start
with the cemetery, and it needs to go with the state, as well.
I think there need to be requirements that are verified by
random audits and inspections by the state that the property
has been surveyed, the grids are proper, the numbering system
is consistent, that the number that is--perhaps, a number could
be assigned to a death certificate, or it could be, in some
way, correlated so that when somebody has a bill of sale for a
grave that says, ``Grandma is in E-1234,'' that there is a
record back in the cemetery office, possibly, that is also kept
with the state regulatory office, where that can at least be
cross-checked.
Ms. Schakowsky. So, in any case, you feel that the state or
some regulatory agency should also have that number, so that
we're not just relying on the----
Mr. Slocum. Oh, absolutely.
Ms. Schakowsky [continuing]. Cemetery. OK.
Mr. Slocum. The recordkeeping in cemeteries, even those
with good intentions, is in absolute shambles. We're talking
about paper filing cards, you know, from years and years ago
that people may not even know exist in some cases.
Ms. Schakowsky. I read, in some of the materials provided,
that Burr Oak had nothing, at all--zero--for the year 2005, for
example.
Mr. Hynes, so what's the prognosis on legislation in
Illinois?
Mr. Hynes. Well, Representative, if I may just add to the
previous comments about recordkeeping, our legislation would
have many layers of disclosure required; the cemetery would be
required to keep accurate books and records of burial
locations. They would be required to give a copy of that to the
consumer. The funeral director would be required to put the
exact location of the burial plot on the death certificate. It
would be filed with the county clerk's office. And then,
ultimately, the burial plot would be also filed with the
recorder of deed's office.
So there would be, you know, multiple levels of public
recordkeeping, which I think is important.
Ms. Schakowsky. Are you finding the opposition that--of the
kind that Mr. Slocum described?
Mr. Hynes. Yes. I mean, throughout my ten years in office,
we have met with great resistance on many of our reform
proposals by the industry. And I also would probably add that
there--part of it is the fact there's just--you know, they're
strong institutions, very locally based, where every
legislative district has many cemeteries, many funeral homes,
and the owners of those are, you know, very well connected in a
lot of ways.
And then, there's also a significant representation in the
general assembly itself of people in the industry, and they're
very widely working behind the scenes in resisting our
legislation.
Ms. Schakowsky. Just to know, the media might be interested
in a picture of some of the files that were taken at Burr Oak,
which are all moldy--we can show them to you after--that are
all moldy and clearly unusable, really.
Thank you all. Mr. Lapin.
Mr. Lapin. I'd like to clarify the record here, because
you're showing a file of a cemetery that is not necessarily the
norm. Many of the private-operated cemeteries have computer
records, they have backups in another location of their
computer records, and they have all the information that can be
provided.
Where the problem, as I'm indicating, is there are
different types, and you have small, rural cemeteries that
really have volunteer people on their staff or don't even have
a staff, and if we propose a requirement on these small, rural
cemeteries, many of them will now go to the municipalities and
say, ``Here are the keys. We can't handle this anymore.'' So,
that is the problem. The modern, for-profit cemeteries are
maintaining these records.
I'd also like to say something; in Illinois, the burial
right is an easement. The Supreme Court of Illinois determined,
in 1919 that it is an easement in real estate; it is not a fee
title to the property. The reason it isn't is that the cemetery
has to come in and take care of the property per whatever
contract it enters into with the consumers for the care, and if
it was a fee simple, they'd have to enter into a separate
agreement with each consumer. They have the overall
responsibility for the--taking care of the cemetery to the
extent that they agree to do it.
Mr. Rush. The Chair thanks you.
Ms. Schakowsky. My time has expired.
Mr. Rush. Your time has expired.
The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from North Carolina,
Mr. Butterfield, for two minutes.
Mr. Butterfield. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Some of my friends who are funeral directors and morticians
are telling me that cemeteries are getting into the funeral
business; that, as a condition of the sale of a plot of land,
that they're requiring consumers to purchase their products,
meaning that they're required to purchase their headstones and
the markers directly from the cemetery. And even some are
requiring that the caskets be purchased from the cemetery. Tell
me about that, Mr. Leak, if you're aware of it.
Mr. Leak. Yes, that is happening here in Illinois and
across the country.
Mr. Butterfield. Tell me quickly. We only have a two-minute
lead, you know.
Mr. Leak. We----
Mr. Butterfield. Yes.
Mr. Leak. We find, every day, that, when a family comes to
us and we begin to hand them the price list for the caskets and
other items, that they tell us they've already purchased the
casket. It will be here on such-and-such a day. The headstone
is done. The gravist had already been paid for. The only thing
that they want from us is our professional service.
Mr. Butterfield. But are cemeteries selling these products.
Mr. Leak. Cemeteries, yes, are selling caskets here in
Illinois. I don't know about across the country, but----
Mr. Butterfield. Cemeteries that are not morticians, that
are not licensed as morticians.
Mr. Leak. That is correct, but I understand these
cemetery--the owners also own funeral homes, as well.
Mr. Butterfield. I see. Mr. Slocum, you want to illuminate
on that.
Mr. Slocum. Yes. I think the problem here is tying and
bundling. First of all, no one should be alarmed that somebody
other than a mortician is selling a casket. You don't need a
license to sell--basically, to sell a casket.
Mr. Butterfield. Should you have a license to sell a
casket?
Mr. Slocum. Pardon? A license? No, sir. I don't believe you
should have a license to sell a casket. I think, if you're
going to be a seller of funeral goods and services, that you
need to be subject to the same disclosure rules that the FTC
rule already has for morticians. But, no.
Mr. Butterfield. Let me get a rebuttal from Mr. Leak.
Mr. Leak. Well, I disagree. I'm thinking that especially
outside casket companies should--well, there should be a
licensed funeral director that works for the casket company for
this one reason--just an example--a family orders a casket from
a casket company before coming to us. The casket is sent to the
funeral home. The person will not fit inside of the casket. Had
there been a licensed funeral director at the outside casket
company, that licensed funeral director would have counseled
the family directly at letting them know or asking the
question, ``Do you''----
Mr. Butterfield. It seems----
Mr. Leak. ``Do you think''----
Mr. Butterfield. It seems----
Mr. Leak [continuing]. ``Your loved one will fit in this
casket?''
Mr. Butterfield [continuing]. When you purchase a casket,
that's a very sensitive and delicate time in the life of a
family, and you need a professional----
Mr. Leak. Yes.
Mr. Butterfield [continuing]. Someone who's taken an oath,
who understands what it's all about.
Let me turn your attention--and I only have one minute
left--to the terms of the contract, when a consumer purchases a
plot of land. Are there price disclosures? Does the cemetery
say, ``This is Section B, and the plots in this section are
$1200?'' Is there a price disclosure, Mr. Leak?
Mr. Leak. See, that's another problem here in Illinois. Had
families been required to actually go out to the cemetery, talk
to the cemetery personnel about what they're purchasing, Burr
Oak wouldn't have taken place, as well.
Families come to us and they expect us, the funeral home--
funeral director, to order the cas--or, I'm sorry, order the
grave over the phone. Now, had the family been required to go
out to the cemetery, show them the actual grave location that
they're going to purchase, had been given an itemized price
list of how much the opening and closing is, how much the
concrete liner is, if they were purchasing a so-called select
single, what that's all about--we, as funeral homes, are now
answering, as we are today, cemetery questions.
Mr. Butterfield. But you have to disclose your prices.
Mr. Leak. Yes, sir.
Mr. Butterfield. Cemeteries do not have to disclose their
prices.
Mr. Leak. No, sir.
Mr. Butterfield. All right. That's a problem. All right.
All right. Are your clients given deeds to the property
here in Chicago?
Mr. Leak. If they purchase a deeded grave at a certain
cemetery, they're given a deed.
Mr. Butterfield. And what is expressed in that deed, and
what is implied in that deed? Is it perpetual care.
Mr. Leak. Well, from what I understand, in some cemeteries,
you have sections that have perpetual care. In those same
cemeteries, you may have a section that doesn't have perpetual
care.
Mr. Butterfield. Is that included in the contract?
Mr. Leak. That, I don't know, because I don't see the
contracts.
Mr. Butterfield. All right, Mr. Lapin. You're responding.
Is that in the contract.
Mr. Lapin. Yes. It's required by the Cemetery Care Act
that, if you're providing care, you have to give the consumer a
certificate indicative of the care that you're providing on
that space. If you're not providing care, then there would be
no requirement. Most cemeteries would indicate that these
spaces are being sold without care; however, this would be a
section of the cemetery. You can't say one space and say,
``That one's got care. This one doesn't.''
Mr. Butterfield. Finally, Mr. Lapin, are any of the
cemeteries, that you're aware of, requiring the consumer to use
their products, especially headstones?
Mr. Lapin. That would be an illegal tie-in under the State
of Illinois Antitrust laws and the federal antitrust laws, and
the Funeral Rule prohibits tie-ins, also, so----
Mr. Butterfield. Without penalty to the consumer.
Mr. Lapin. No, you cannot tie in products and services, and
that is why we have some independent sellers. And I agree with
Mr. Slocum; you may not be aware, but Castro is a seller of
caskets----
Mr. Butterfield. Yes.
Mr. Lapin [continuing]. In the states that it legally can.
So, yes.
Mr. Butterfield. I think my time is in the red. Thank you.
I yield back.
Mr. Rush. The Chair thanks the gentleman.
The gentleman from the 7th Congressional District,
Congressman Davis, five minutes--two minutes, rather.
Mr. Davis. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Let me, first of all, commend you, Mr. Leak. I had the
occasion yesterday, as a matter of fact, to visit the 79th
Street and Congress Road Chapel of Leak and Sons, and I saw
this long line of records that were out in the open so that
individuals who wanted to try and see if they could find them,
could come in, have access to them without any fanfare or
difficulty, and I was very pleased to see that, and I commend
your family for doing that.
The one question that I have is to you, Comptroller Hynes,
since you deal with distributing money. I must confess that I
did some research relative to federal statutes, and it seems to
me that--and I also went to the Justice Department, as well as
the Congressional Research Service, and kind of looked into the
issue. And it seems like they both imply that it's pretty
difficult to get additional federal regulations. I mean, they
both sort of implied that.
They implied, also, that there are also some federal
activities that already exists if one carries it through to its
conclusion, you know, with the U.S. Attorney. And all of this
becomes kind of complex, in a sense. If we talk about
additional regulations, are we going to end up talking about
additional costs that the consumer ends up having to pay, or
does it become so cost effective in relationship to government?
In, you know, practically every state that I know, and every
county that I know, every local government that I know is
crying about its budget and whether or not it can pay for
anything beyond what it's currently paying for.
So, how would you see that as--you know, in terms of the
impact on the consumer?
Mr. Hynes. Well, I think that the proposals we put forward
at the state level could be implemented with minimal cost
additions, both in terms of, you know, costs incurred by state
regulatory authorities, as well as, I believe, cemeteries
themselves. So, for example, in terms of the burial record and
maintaining good public records, we spoke with the Recorder of
Deeds office, and they felt that it would be pretty simple to
expand their systems to incorporate the recording of cemetery
plots and individual burial plots, as well. There may be some
marginal costs in terms of implementing that, but they felt
pretty comfortably they could do it.
The Department of Professional Regulation would probably
see some costs in terms of having to take over or sort of
regulating the cemetery industry, but, you know, I'm confident
that they would be able to do that within their existing
budget.
The cemeteries themselves will always say that they're
going to be--this is going to drive up costs. When we proposed,
years ago, a maintenance standard for cemeteries, where, you
know, people could be--could expect the lawn be mowed and there
to be no flooding and the roads be paved, we were told by
cemeteries that this would just drive costs through the roof,
and I just don't think that makes any sense. I mean, I think
that there's just some expectation already on the consumer's
part that these things would be done.
And we also exempt--you know, Mr. Lapin mentioned about
these small, community, ma-and-pa cemeteries. We exempted our
legislation to any cemetery that has 25 or fewer burials per
year so that they wouldn't be overwhelmed with these types of
costs.
So, I think the cost would be very minimal.
Mr. Davis. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. This has been
very informative. I certainly, again, want to thank you for
holding this hearing.
Mr. Rush. OK. The Chair would like to inform the members
that we--and the witnesses, that we will have one additional
question per each member. So, any additional--we're approx---we
are gonna adjourn at 12:15, so we're ahead of schedule. So we
got one more additional question, and the Chair recognizes
himself for one more question.
In this area of separation within the cemetery industry
between for-profit cemeteries and not-for-profit cemeteries,
how significant is that problem, in terms of additional federal
regulation, and how would you suggest that we overcome that
particular problem?
Mr. Harwood. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Rush. Mr. Harwood.
Mr. Harwood [continuing]. With respect to the--yes. Thank
you.
Mr. Rush. Go ahead.
Mr. Harwood. The--under the FTC Act, there's a provision
that precludes us from regulating not-for-profit entities;
Section four of the FTC Act. We looked at this issue in
connection with expanding the Funeral Rule to cemeteries and
found that a substantial number of cemeteries are, in fact,
not-for-profit entities.
Thus, for us to extend the Funeral Rule, it would be
difficult to reach those under that--as, currently, no law for
them exists, it would be difficult to reach those.
As to how you get around that problem, you know, ideally,
the easiest answer I can see is simply to change the law, but
there may be other solutions.
Mr. Rush. OK. Comptroller Hynes, do you see that, and how
would you advise us to move beyond the separation between not-
for-profit and for-profit.
Mr. Hynes. Well, I think that, certainly, there are
historic obstacles or just presumptions that carve out
exemptions for religious and fraternal cemeteries. But I think
it's something that has to be contemplated going forward. You
know, we try to start with a broad reach and work from there in
the legislative process. You know, you will find, you know,
that there are concerns raised by religious entities, and then,
even in the case of small, family cemeteries I mentioned, we
had to carve out the exemption because there are some very
small cemeteries that just couldn't keep up with these types of
costs.
So I would say that, you know, it's just something that we
have to keep in mind, both at the state and federal level.
Mr. Rush. Do any other witnesses want to chime in on that.
OK. The Chair recognizes the gentle lady from Illinois for
one minute. One additional question, though.
Ms. Schakowsky. Yes. I just, actually, wanted to know, in
the audience, are there other family members who had people at
Burr Oak?
I just wondered. Looks like we have people here. Thank you.
I overused my time, I think, before, so I will yield back.
Thank you.
Mr. Rush. All right. Mr. Butterfield.
Mr. Butterfield. Are there any other funeral directors in
the audience.
All right. Thank you.
Mr. Leak, I'm intrigued with your suggestion that somehow
the grave location can very easily be placed on the death
certificate.
Mr. Leak. Yes.
Mr. Butterfield. Would that present any unusual problem or
challenge for funeral homes to include that data, if it's
provided on the form?
Mr. Leak. Not at all. With the new system, the way it is
now, the doctors have a password to go into the Internet and
file their information. We then have a password to go into the
Internet and file the death certificate. The cemeteries could
then have a password to go in and amend the final death
certificate that we have already----
Mr. Butterfield. I think it's a wonderful idea. I'm going
to encourage the legislature in my state to take up the idea.
In fact, I just sent an e-mail to my state legislator, who
happens to be my ex-wife, suggesting that she might want to
consider offering that as a bill in the North Carolina House.
Mr. Leak. You can make it the Spencer Leak, Jr. Funeral
Rule.
Mr. Butterfield. All right. Thanks to all of you.
Mr. Rush. Yes. The Chair thanks all the witnesses. You have
greatly made an enormous contribution to the members of this
Subcommittee. Again, I want to assure you that we will be
proceeding under the permits, and there will be a federal
standard, a federal legislature that will be introduced into
the Congress in the near future, and we expect to pass it into
law, we expect to see the President sign it. It will be
something like the Bereaved Consumer Bill of Rights for the
nation's bereaved citizens.
So, thank you so much, and we appreciate your testimony.
Again, I want to tell the Committee, those who come from near
and from afar, the Chair really appreciates your involvement,
your time, and thank you again, and safe travels back to our
nation's capital.
The Committee stands adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 12:05 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]
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