[House Hearing, 111 Congress] [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office] BANK OF AMERICA AND MERRILL LYNCH: HOW DID A PRIVATE DEAL TURN INTO A FEDERAL BAILOUT? PART V ======================================================================= JOINT HEARING before the COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM and the SUBCOMMITTEE ON DOMESTIC POLICY of the COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ONE HUNDRED ELEVENTH CONGRESS FIRST SESSION __________ DECEMBER 11, 2009 __________ Serial No. 111-102 __________ Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.gpoaccess.gov/congress/ index.html http://www.house.gov/reform ---------- U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 63-135 PDF WASHINGTON : 2011 For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: toll free (866) 512-1800; DC area (202) 512-1800 Fax: (202) 512-2104 Mail: Stop IDCC, Washington, DC 20402-0001 COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM EDOLPHUS TOWNS, New York, Chairman PAUL E. KANJORSKI, Pennsylvania DARRELL E. ISSA, California CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York DAN BURTON, Indiana ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland JOHN L. MICA, Florida DENNIS J. KUCINICH, Ohio MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana JOHN F. TIERNEY, Massachusetts JOHN J. DUNCAN, Jr., Tennessee WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri MICHAEL R. TURNER, Ohio DIANE E. WATSON, California LYNN A. WESTMORELAND, Georgia STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts PATRICK T. McHENRY, North Carolina JIM COOPER, Tennessee BRIAN P. BILBRAY, California GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia JIM JORDAN, Ohio MIKE QUIGLEY, Illinois JEFF FLAKE, Arizona MARCY KAPTUR, Ohio JEFF FORTENBERRY, Nebraska ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of JASON CHAFFETZ, Utah Columbia AARON SCHOCK, Illinois PATRICK J. KENNEDY, Rhode Island BLAINE LUETKEMEYER, Missouri DANNY K. DAVIS, Illinois ANH ``JOSEPH'' CAO, Louisiana CHRIS VAN HOLLEN, Maryland HENRY CUELLAR, Texas PAUL W. HODES, New Hampshire CHRISTOPHER S. MURPHY, Connecticut PETER WELCH, Vermont BILL FOSTER, Illinois JACKIE SPEIER, California STEVE DRIEHAUS, Ohio JUDY CHU, California Ron Stroman, Staff Director Michael McCarthy, Deputy Staff Director Carla Hultberg, Chief Clerk Larry Brady, Minority Staff Director Subcommittee on Domestic Policy DENNIS J. KUCINICH, Ohio, Chairman ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland JIM JORDAN, Ohio JOHN F. TIERNEY, Massachusetts MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana DIANE E. WATSON, California DAN BURTON, Indiana JIM COOPER, Tennessee MICHAEL R. TURNER, Ohio PATRICK J. KENNEDY, Rhode Island JEFF FORTENBERRY, Nebraska PETER WELCH, Vermont AARON SCHOCK, Illinois BILL FOSTER, Illinois MARCY KAPTUR, Ohio Jaron R. Bourke, Staff Director C O N T E N T S ---------- Page Hearing held on December 11, 2009................................ 1 Statement of: Bair, Sheila C., chairman, Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation................................................ 39 Khuzami, Robert, Director, Division of Enforcement, U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission......................... 60 Letters, statements, etc., submitted for the record by: Bair, Sheila C., chairman, Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, prepared statement of......................... 41 Connolly, Hon. Gerald E., a Representative in Congress from the State of Virginia, prepared statement of............... 100 Issa, Hon. Darrell E., a Representative in Congress from the State of California, information concerning daily pacing... 69 Khuzami, Robert, Director, Division of Enforcement, U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, prepared statement of.. 63 Kucinich, Hon. Dennis J., a Representative in Congress from the State of Ohio, prepared statement of................... 35 Towns, Hon. Edolphus, a Representative in Congress from the State of New York: Letter dated December 10, 2009........................... 84 Prepared statement of.................................... 3 BANK OF AMERICA AND MERRILL LYNCH: HOW DID A PRIVATE DEAL TURN INTO A FEDERAL BAILOUT? PART V ---------- FRIDAY, DECEMBER 11, 2009 House of Representatives, Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, joint with the Subcommittee on Domestic Policy, Washington, DC. The committee and subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10 a.m., in room 2154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Edolphus Towns (chairman of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform) presiding. Present: Representatives Towns, Cummings, Kucinich, Tierney, Clay, Watson, Connolly, Quigley, Cuellar, Speier, Issa, Duncan, Bilbray, Jordan, Flake, Luetkemeyer, and Cao. Staff present: John Arlington, chief counsel-- investigations; Jean Gosa, clerk; Adam Hodge, deputy press secretary; Carla Hultberg, chief clerk; Marc Johnson and Ophelia Rivas, assistant clerks; Mike McCarthy, deputy staff director; Jenny Rosenberg, director of communications; Joanne Royce, senior investigative counsel; Leneal Scott, IT specialist; Christopher Staszak, senior investigative counsel; Ron Stroman, staff director; Gerri Willis, special assistant; Alex Wolf, professional staff member; Jaron Bourke, staff director, Subcommittee on Domestic Policy; Lawrence Brady, minority staff director; John Cuaderes, minority deputy staff director; Rob Borden, minority general counsel; Jennifer Safavian, minority chief counsel for oversight and investigations; Frederick Hill, minority director of communications; Adam Fromm, minority chief clerk and Member liaison; Kurt Bardella, minority press secretary; Seamus Kraft, minority deputy press secretary; Christopher Hixon, minority senior counsel; Hudson Hollister, minority counsel; and Brien Beattie and Mark Marin, minority professional staff member. Chairman Towns. The committee and subcommittee will come to order. Good morning and thank you for being here. The committee's investigation into Bank of America's acquisition of Merrill Lynch has resulted in an unprecedented look behind the scenes of one of the biggest bailouts in American history. Did the Federal Government force Bank of America to go through with the merger? Every Bank of America senior executive involved has told the committee that the government did not force them to go through with it. In fact, they told us they decided to go through with the deal because they thought it was in the best interests of Bank of America and its shareholders. Ken Lewis also testified that no one in the Government did anything improper during this transaction. If there are still people who want to say the Government forced Bank of America to go through with the deal, they are turning a blind eye to the facts we now have before us. Over the course of this 8-month investigation, the committee has held five hearings, received extensive testimony from top executives at Bank of America and senior Government officials, conducted numerous interviews, issued two unprecedented subpoenas to the Federal Reserve for internal records, and reviewed nearly half a million documents. Most importantly, public scrutiny and oversight by this committee has produced tangible results. Two days ago, Bank of America paid back its entire $45 billion Federal loan plus interest. In addition, under pressure from the committee, Bank of America agreed in September to pay $425 million to the Treasury Department in compensation for toxic asset insurance the bank received but never paid for. In sum, our bipartisan investigation has resulted in the American taxpayers receiving approximately $47\1/2\ billion. Even in today's world, that is real money. Every member of this committee should be proud of our efforts, and I take the time to salute you for your involvement and your hard work that has been great to get to this point. While we have thoroughly examined all these issues involved in this case, I agreed to grant the ranking member's request for one more hearing to tie up some loose ends that he is concerned about. This will close the committee's full, fair, and successful investigation of the Bank of America-Merrill Lynch merger. On that note, I thank you; and I yield to the ranking member of the committee, the gentleman from California, Congressman Darrell Issa. [The prepared statement of Hon. Edolphus Towns attached:] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Mr. Issa. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for holding this hearing. I have already told the chairwoman that, quite frankly, I do believe she is the bookend of this investigation. She is the bookend because Tim Geithner has never appeared before us. She is the bookend because, in fact, there never really was much there. Bank of America is a regulated bank. Moneys were made available on an extraordinary basis and have now been paid back. Today, in the short time that we will take of the chairwoman, we in the minority will ask, where do we go from here? The security of our banks, FDIC-insured banks, the future of banks conveniently becoming banks in times of trouble and perhaps not being banks in other times, these are important questions that this committee should ask not because we are the Financial Services Committee but because we are the watchdog of the American dollar and the American process and the laws that are passed that the executive branch and its affiliates must adhere to. Mr. Chairman, I am deeply concerned that in your opening statement you, quite understandably, said that the American people were paid back $45 billion with interest, over $47 billion. I must caution you, the American people didn't get a penny back. That money has not come back to the American people. In fact, it has simply been put back into the slush fund that was created under a Republican President with Tim Geithner and Hank Paulson's assistance; and today, in fact, not a penny has been paid back to the American people. That money is being recycled into do-good causes or whatever the President and this administration would like to do. Mr. Chairman, I look forward to us getting the American people's money back as it was promised. We were told that, in fact, we would be paid back all of our money, and probably with interest. Mr. Chairman, unless that money comes back immediately, when you look at Chrysler, General Motors, and, of course, $31-plus billion to AIG that Tim Geithner himself has now said we will not get back, it is clear that even if all the other moneys given to various organizations through a process of buying mostly preferred debt, if in fact all of that is paid back with interest, the offset of the money that we now know we are going to lose would barely make us whole without considering interest as anything other than principal payback. So Mr. Chairman, this is the bookend. We have only a few questions for our esteemed witness, and we appreciate your bringing her here today. But this is not the end of protecting the American people's money, not the end of this committee's jurisdiction of ensuring that the intent of law becomes the fact in law. With that, I thank the chairman and yield back. Chairman Towns. I thank the gentleman for his statement. And maybe what we can do with some of this $47\1/2\ billion is use it to create jobs and job opportunities. So maybe that is a good way to use it. Mr. Issa. Mr. Chairman, I would certainly appreciate a bill authorizing that and appropriating that through the Congress. And I look forward to working with you on such a piece of legislation, which is our constitutional responsibility. Chairman Towns. Thank you very much. I appreciate the gentleman's offer and look forward to working with you. Mr. Connolly. Mr. Chairman? Would the ranking member yield? Chairman Towns. Actually---- Mr. Issa. The Chair certainly could. Mr. Connolly. Would the chairman allow me to just respond to something the ranking member said? Chairman Towns. Very quickly. Mr. Connolly. Very quickly. I just want the ranking member to know there are Members on this side of the aisle who share his view about the need to address the deficit and that the first obligation of the repayment of TARP money or the use of unused TARP money ought to be that. Mr. Issa. Thank you. Chairman Towns. Thank you very much. As this hearing is being conducted by the Domestic Policy Subcommittee, of course, and they have done a superb job in working with us on this issue, I now would like to yield 5 minutes to the gentleman from Cleveland, OH, Mr. Kucinich, the Chair of that subcommittee. Mr. Kucinich. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Issa, members of the committee. On December 5, 2008, the shareholders of Bank of America voted to approve a merger with Merrill Lynch. Only 12 days later, Ken Lewis, CEO of Bank of America, made a call to then- Secretary of Treasury Hank Paulson, initiating a process that led to a $20 billion bailout of the merger and a promise of government insurance for losses of up to $118 billion. The chronology of events strained belief. Was it true that the financial situation at Merrill Lynch shifted so dramatically in that short amount of time, as Ken Lewis said? Or did top management know, or should they have known, about the deteriorating situation at Merrill Lynch much earlier? Did they fail to make necessary disclosures to the shareholders? Bank of America would be in legal jeopardy if it failed to disclose to shareholders information about large accelerating losses at Merrill Lynch known or knowable before the shareholder vote. The Domestic Policy Subcommittee investigation has found evidence of possible security law violations at Bank of America. Bank of America unreasonably and negligently relied on internal fourth quarter 2008 forecasts created by Merrill Lynch that omitted any forecast of how the CDOs, CDS, and other toxic assets would perform during the quarter. The former Merrill CFO admitted that this forecast was not, in fact, a valid forecast. Bank of America knew at the time that the forecast was of questionable validity. However, Bank of America did not do any actual financial analysis to make up for the Merrill omissions. Instead, Bank of America merely pulled a number out of thin air, which was recorded on a forecast as the gut feeling of Neil Cotty, Bank of America's chief accounting officer. Bank of America simply created an assumption that Merrill Lynch's illiquid assets would almost break even for November, thereby spreading October's bad results over 2 months. The attorneys at Bank of America and at Wachtell, Lipton recklessly did not question this financial information. They advised Bank of America not to make further disclosures to its shareholders based on the deficient forecast and the gut feeling. Within only weeks, however, reality crowded out wishful thinking. Merrill Lynch's exotic investments continued to lose large amounts of money, causing Merrill to lose over $21 billion in just the fourth quarter. Bank of America went running to the U.S. Government for rescue. When I asked Ken Lewis about this at our first hearing, he told us that he relied on advice of counsel. Protecting shareholders is often, in the final instance, the responsibility of corporate general counsels and their outside counsel. The subcommittee's investigative findings demand the question, where were the lawyers? Where were the lawyers? The glaring omissions and inaccurate financial data in the critical November 12th forecasts were so obvious that they should have alerted the attorneys to the necessity of reasonable investigation before making a key decision on Bank of America's legal duties to disclose. The apparent fact that they did not mount such an investigation makes the decision not to disclose Merrill's losses to shareholders an egregious violation of securities laws. The stage for these possible violations was set by former SEC Chairman Christopher Cox. At exactly the time that CDOs, CDSs, and other exotic instruments proliferated in financial markets, Chairman Cox discouraged formal investigations of, and large corporate penalties against, securities fraudsters. Bank of America's conduct was the corporate reaction to years of weakening enforcement at the SEC under Chairman Cox. Chairman Schapiro has made efforts to turn enforcement policy around. While I applaud the SEC for enforcing the law, in the case of the nondisclosure of the Merrill bonuses, Bank of America's failure to disclose accelerating losses at Merrill Lynch before the shareholder vote is more significant. Indeed, those undisclosed losses dwarf the amount of undisclosed bonuses. The reliance on counsel defense asserted by Ken Lewis raises the broader question will the Securities and Exchange Commission allow corporate management to rely on the advice of counsel defense and then allow the counsel to avoid liability for their advice? The investing public and now this Congressman wants to know, where is the SEC? As of yet, we don't know. Thank you. [The prepared statement of Hon. Dennis J. Kucinich follows:] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Chairman Towns. Thank the gentleman for his statement. I now yield 5 minutes to the ranking member of the Domestic Policy Subcommittee, Mr. Jordan, from the State of Ohio. Mr. Jordan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I want to thank you for holding today's hearing. I look forward to exploring the role of the SEC and FDIC in the merger between Bank of America and Merrill Lynch. This committee's investigation has revealed important evidence of the abuse of power by the Federal Government in response to the financial crisis. As I have said before, Mr. Chairman, while the actions of the government officials took place in a time of significant economic challenges and uncertainty, there must be limits to government action even in a time of crisis, and those limits must be respected. We must also keep in mind that the actions of government officials in this merger occurred after many of the Nation's banks were forced to accept taxpayer money through the TARP program. We know that in October 2008--this is from testimony Ken Lewis gave us at the very first hearing we had on this issue. We know at that October 2008, meeting, Mr. Paulson, Mr. Bernanke, Mr. Geithner, and Ms. Bair brought the CEOs of the largest private banks in America to the Treasury Department, demanded that they accept the partial nationalization of their banks in exchange for an amount of money of the government's choosing. I look forward to learning more about Mrs. Bair's role in that meeting and this entire affair. This investigation has continued to reveal the unintended consequences and negative implications of the government's unprecedented intervention in the private sector. I hope the Congress will apply these lessons as we continue to debate the appropriate regulatory framework for our financial system as we move forward. And with that, Mr. Chairman, I thank you and yield back. Chairman Towns. Thank you very much. We now move to our witness. We have with us today the Chair of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation. Madam Chair, it is the longstanding tradition that we swear all of our witnesses in. If you would stand and raise your right hand. [Witness sworn.] Chairman Towns. Let the record reflect that the witness answered in the affirmative. You may begin with your testimony. STATEMENT OF SHEILA C. BAIR, CHAIRMAN, FEDERAL DEPOSIT INSURANCE CORPORATION Ms. Bair. Thank you, Chairman Towns, Chairman Kucinich, Ranking Members Issa and Jordan, and members of the committee. As requested by the committee, my testimony today will focus on the FDIC's role and the decision---- Chairman Towns. Madam Chair, you want to pull that mic down just a little bit there? Ms. Bair. Sure. As requested by the committee---- Chairman Towns. And closer, too, I think. Ms. Bair. As requested by the committee, my testimony today will focus on the FDIC's role and the decision to provide assistance to Bank of America. Let me note at the outset that Bank of America is an open institution, and the FDIC is very sensitive about any discussion of the condition of open and operating insured depository institutions. In mid-September 2008, in the wake of Lehman's failure, BofA announced that it would acquire Merrill Lynch. BofA's acquisition of Merrill Lynch was approved by the Federal Reserve on November 26, 2008, and was to be finalized in early 2009. However, on or very shortly before December 21, 2008, the FDIC was told by the Federal Reserve and Treasury that BofA had expressed reservations about completing the acquisition of Merrill Lynch. Over the course of time, it was clear that officials from the Federal Reserve and Treasury believed that systemic risk would exist absent an agreement by the government to provide assistance to BofA. On January 14, 2009, the FDIC received from the Federal Reserve a draft terms sheet describing an assistance package, the principal elements of which were capital infusion in a transaction where the FDIC, Treasury, and Federal Reserve would share in a guarantee against certain losses, otherwise known as a, ``ring fence,'' transaction. The FDIC continued to analyze where and how much the exposures were and how that specifically impacted the FDIC. The FDIC's board ultimately was persuaded that BofA's condition presented a systemic risk and that the ring fence transaction would mitigate that risk and the risks to the deposit insurance fund in a cost-effective manner. The transaction also limited the FDIC's risk to a small portion of the covered exposures, recognizing the fact that most of the exposures resided within the investment bank and not the insured depository institution. On January 16, 2009, the planned Treasury capital infusion and the Treasury-Fed-FDIC ring fence transaction were announced. In early May 2009, BofA asked that the ring fence transaction not be completed. Moving forward, we have worked continuously with Congress, the Treasury, and the financial regulators toward creating a more resilient, transparent, and better-regulated financial system, one that combines stronger and more effective regulation with market discipline. One of the lessons we have learned over the past few years is that regulation alone is not enough. We need to establish an effective and credible resolution mechanism to ensure that market players will actively monitor and keep a firm handle on risk taking. We commend you and your colleagues on the progress you have made in moving toward providing the regulators with the tools to effectively deal with any future crisis. Thank you, and I will be pleased to take any of your questions. [The prepared statement of Ms. Bair follows:] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Chairman Towns. Thank you very much for your statement. Let me just state to the Members we are going to be really tight on the 5 minutes today. Because 5 minutes really means 5 minutes, which means 5 minutes to ask the questions and for the person to answer the questions. Because I promised the chairperson that I would have her out by no later than 11:15, 11:20. So we want to respect that and try to move forward. Let me just sort of ask one quick question. Are there steps you think the Congress can take to avoid future bailouts of the banking industry? Ms. Bair. Yes. I think we have put a very high priority on a robust resolution mechanism. We have that for insured depository institutions. And when smaller institutions start to fail, they are put into a very severe resolution mechanism that requires shareholders and unsecured creditors to take a loss, generally a complete loss. For nonbank entities or activities outside of banks, this resolution authority does not apply and, we think, something very similar to the FDIC process, which is shareholders and creditors take losses, not the government, is very important. And we think that the House bill that is being on the floor now moves very well in that direction, and we think they should be very clear and that the resolution authority should specifically ban assistance to individual institutions going forward. And I believe that is also in the House bill. Chairman Towns. Thank you very much. I now yield to the gentleman from California, ranking member, Congressman Issa. Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Mr. Issa. Actually, Mr. Flake wanted to be recognized first. Chairman Towns. The gentleman from Arizona. He yields to the gentleman from Arizona. Congressman Flake. Mr. Flake. I yield to the gentleman from California. Mr. Issa. The gentleman is yielding me his time in order to be expeditious. Madam Chair, I want to be brief, also; and I have just a series of short questions. First of all, from the standpoint of the FDIC looking back now, wasn't--forgetting about whether the merger was a good merger, the MAC, all the other things that this committee has worked on, wasn't the underpinning of the additional money, preferred stock as a form of loan, wasn't that in fact the most appropriate thing for the FDIC to approve of so that the capital worth of Bank of America would be undeniable? Ms. Bair. Well, I think it is always hard in hindsight to answer questions like that. Mr. Issa. Actually, I normally find it easier in hindsight. Ms. Bair. It may be easier in hindsight. I guess it is easier to reevaluate decisions that were made. I think the distinction needs to be made between the insured depository institution that had a strong capital position with other activities that were going on in the bank holding company. And so I think if you are looking just to the insured depository institution where we had the exposure, there is a question about whether additional capital was needed. I do think---- Mr. Issa. I am not saying whether it was needed. It is clear that--in hindsight, it is clear they didn't need it, because they paid it back to you essentially without it being from actual new money in any large amount. They passed the stress test. And they passed the stress test and said they could pay it back. So I know that part of hindsight is clear. Ms. Bair. Right, right. Mr. Issa. But the real benefit of the $45 billion of loan, and I repeat it was not--it is not--you know, we didn't bail them out. We didn't give them anything. We bought stock. We bought the worth of the company, and we got interest guarantee and the ability to get our money out ahead of everyone else. Preferred stock is not all bad. But the effectiveness of it was to, if you will, overcapitalize the company in hindsight. But wasn't that essentially a good thing in that, if there was no other benefit to TARP, the confidence of knowing that these companies, particular banks, were extremely well capitalized, not as to the stockholders but as to the depositors, wasn't that effectively the good thing that came out of this arrangement? Ms. Bair. Well, I think, yes, the capital investment certainly created a fortress balance sheet. I think that was the original intention of all these capital investments under TARP. Again, we were not--the only role that we had was on the ring fence, not on the TARP investment. That was a Treasury program and Treasury decision. But yes, certainly---- Mr. Issa. But you were the beneficiary of it in a sense. Ms. Bair [continuing]. Is absolutely going to have a stabilizing impact, yes. Mr. Issa. The next question is a harder one. Ms. Bair. Uh-huh. Mr. Issa. Many nonbanks decided to become banks conveniently in this crisis. Ms. Bair. Right, right. Mr. Issa. Many entities in fact fled to the FDIC. And the FDIC finds itself with its funds, funds which are designed to ensure that we never have to actually put in taxpayer dollars, those funds are stressed right now. Going forward, do you believe that in fact in the future people should be able to run to the FDIC, run to being a bank when it suits them, even if they hadn't been when it didn't suit them? Ms. Bair. No, I don't think they should be able to do that. Mr. Issa. Is that a reform that you presently see on the horizon that would give you that ability next time to say you better be there early or not come at all? Ms. Bair. Well, I think--two things. I think we need a robust resolution mechanism so when entities get themselves in trouble they don't get government assistance. They get put into receivership. And I think entities asking for assistance maybe won't ask for assistance so much if they know that is the repercussion. In terms of entities becoming bank holding companies and having insured depository institutions not just for deposit insurance but for the Fed lending facilities, we have suggested that there needs to be a systemic risk council that would decide and have the power to say to an entity that became a bank holding company but perhaps later doesn't want all the regulation that entails that they still need to subject themselves and be subject to prudential supervision, that they can't arbitrage just becoming a bank holding company when it suits them and then not and escaping the regulation when that suits them. Mr. Issa. Thank you. I yield back to the gentleman from Arizona, and he yields back. Mr. Flake. I yield back. Chairman Towns. Thank you very much. I now recognize the ranking member--I am sorry--the chairman of the Domestic Policy Subcommittee, yes, Mr. Kucinich from Ohio. Mr. Kucinich. Chairman Bair, do you have any concerns that America may face yet another bank collapse? Ms. Bair. No, I don't, but I think there is a lot of work that needs to be done to continue the stabilization and the cleanup, and I think the regulatory reform efforts going on right now in Congress are absolutely crucial to that. Mr. Kucinich. Do you think banks that are too big to fail are too big to exist and ought to be broken up? Ms. Bair. Well, I think there needs--the problem with too big to fail is the same problem that you had with Fannie and Freddie. There is an implied government backstop, which feeds into risk taking. If shareholders and creditors think they have the upside and the government has the downside, that is going to encourage risk taking. We think that is a major factor that drove the crisis. And again, this is why--I hate to sound like a Johnny One Note, but we really need--Congress needs to establish a very robust, very severe resolution mechanism that tells shareholders and creditors they will take losses if these institutions go down. Right now, they are just happily, you know, feeding, extending credit, and making equity investments, and I fear that they are not really doing their own due diligence in terms of looking at what is going on in these very large institutions. Do they understand the risks? Do they understand--is the management on top of those risks? I don't think we have market discipline right now, and we need that. Mr. Kucinich. Do you have any concern that banks may still be overleveraging derivative markets? Ms. Bair. Absolutely. Yes. I would say financial institutions, not---- Mr. Kucinich. Pardon. Ms. Bair. I think banks as loosely used. I would say financial institutions, I absolutely have that concern, yes. Mr. Kucinich. And what can you tell the American people about the security of their bank deposits? Ms. Bair. Their bank deposits are very secure. That is one thing we have been very early on with a public information campaign. The resolutions have been smooth. Everyone's deposits have been completely protected, as they always have been. So there is no question that the FDIC has resources to deal with whatever may come. Mr. Kucinich. Would you tell us what those immediate resources are to assure security of deposits? Ms. Bair. Right. Well, we are full faith and credit, and we have a Treasury line and a congressional commitment to back insured deposits. And, again, that has been in effect for 75 years. Right now, we have required prepayment of assessments that is going to bring in another $45 billion at the end of the year, which will bring our cash position probably in the first quarter to around $60 billion, given what we already have and additional moneys that we are going to be bringing in. So I think it is a very strong cash position. We can borrow up to $500 billion from the Treasury Department if we would need to do that. I don't foresee any circumstance where that would become necessary. Mr. Kucinich. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yield back. Chairman Towns. Thank you very much. I now yield to the ranking member of the full committee, Congressman Issa. Mr. Issa. Thank you, and I will be equally brief this time. Madam Chair, you on January 9th determined it was clear ``It was clear that officials from the Federal Reserve and Treasury believed the systemic risk would exist absent an agreement by the government to provide assistance to BofA.'' That is really the point at which you came in. But isn't it true that the deal was already done prior to that time to give them the money? Isn't that what we have essentially discovered? Ms. Bair. Right. Well, I will tell you I know conversations already occurred between the Treasury and the Fed and Mr. Lewis prior to the time we were contacted. I wasn't privy to those conversations, so I don't know. Mr. Issa. Sure. I realize we have been very unfair to you in that you came in on the tail end of everything. Ms. Bair. Yes, I did. Mr. Issa. And only if something was a bank or about to become a bank holding company. Ms. Bair. Right. Mr. Issa. Let me followup with this question. Specifically in your role as FDIC Chair, if you had a choice and you were told, what would you like to do when BofA said we are going to invoke the MAC or give us more money? It doesn't matter who said it, but that occurred. Wouldn't the FDIC's position in the future be go to Congress or go to the TARP and bail out Merrill Lynch directly? If they don't want it and there is money needed, and obviously there wasn't new management or consolidation in the merger at all, wasn't it really go bail out Merrill Lynch, do whatever you are going to do with Merrill Lynch, they are not a bank, and why should it be clouded with me? Isn't that essentially the--you and future Chairs' position that you would prefer? Ms. Bair. Well, we think it is important to act as one government, yes. But my first job and foremost job is to protect insured depositors. And I can't, with at that time about a $50 billion deposit insurance fund, bail out the entire economy and everybody else with the resources that we have. And I have to make sure that we have credibility to protect insured depositors, first and foremost. So, yes, investment banks are not insured depository institutions, and it would have been nice to have other mechanisms available. Absolutely. Mr. Issa. So as we are Monday morning quarterbacking up here, if there is anything--and since we have determined that Chrysler and General Motors qualified for TARP money, if there was any mistake made, it was this very lucrative merger that BofA is now happy about and touting, to be honest, when faced with the dilemma, it was a Merrill Lynch decision. Treasury, Paulson, Geithner, they should have made a Merrill Lynch decision relative to. Instead, what they do is they pushed it onto a bank holding company, and a bank holding company then had a systemic risk problem which fell to your doorstep, and $45 billion of taxpayer money, albeit paid back, in fact was put in play. Ms. Bair. Well, yes, BofA was already a bank holding company, obviously. This is a situation where Merrill Lynch was not. So through the acquisition it got folded into the bank holding company structure. And, yes, there were significant benefits that accrued because of that, yes. Mr. Issa. Now on a lighter note---- Ms. Bair. OK. Mr. Issa [continuing]. Yesterday this committee on a bipartisanship basis moved for a common searchable platform, although not XBRL, which of course you use. We mandated a common uniform platform with rigorous structures so that there could be transparency either to those cleared or, in the case of assets, information available normally to the public, directly to the public. What is your experience and what would you guide us with, in your case, XBRL and that kind of capability that it gives you to look down and, if possible, even allow others to look down? Ms. Bair. Right. Well, IT is not my forte. We have been leaders in this area. I think we have had a very good experience, and I would certainly offer our IT people to give you a more detailed briefing on that, if you would like. Mr. Issa. Let me--last followup question, and I will yield back. Do you believe that this committee is on the right track when we insist that data bases be common, robust, searchable, and interactive so that in fact, when appropriate, the American people can have transparency? Ms. Bair. Right. You may get me in trouble with other agencies, but if I could just follow that, we have had a very positive experience, and I would encourage others and this committee to facilitate broader use. Mr. Issa. Thank you, Madam Chair. I yield back. Chairman Towns. Thank the gentleman from California. I now yield to the gentleman from Maryland, Congressman Cummings. Mr. Cummings. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman; and, Ms. Bair, welcome, and thank you doing such a superb job. I recognize that the FDIC's job in the Bank of America bailout was different from that of your fellow regulators at Treasury and the Federal Reserve. But, nonetheless, we have a responsibility to explore all aspects of this tainted transaction. In your written testimony, you note that the FDIC was notified of potential government assistance in the Bank of America-Merrill Lynch merger around December 21, 2008. You go on to say that over the next 3 weeks the discussion continued about Bank of America's financial condition and the nature of the assistance to be provided. You discussed the case with Secretary Paulson, Chairman Bernanke, and others on January 9, 2009, and were provided a draft terms sheet on January 14th. This is all correct, I hope, and I am working from your own written testimony. Is that right? Ms. Bair. That is right. Mr. Cummings. My concern is the fact that in past hearings in this committee we have heard about how Ken Lewis briefed his board of directors on December 22, 2008, and again on December 29, 2008, indicating that at least $12 billion in fourth quarter Merrill Lynch losses would be covered by the Federal Government. I am not asking you what happened at those meetings. I know you weren't there. But what I would like to address is this. Do you have any reason to believe that Ken Lewis had sufficient basis on the structure of any potential deal to brief his board with such certainty? Ms. Bair. No. Again, we weren't privy to any of those discussions, and certainly the FDIC had made no decision at that time about whether we would participate and to what extent we would and how that would take place or whether it was necessary. Mr. Cummings. Based on your testimony, the government regulators were still reviewing the Bank of America positions and working on whether a deal would occur well into the new year. It certainly doesn't sound like it was a done deal, does it? Ms. Bair. No. And, again, I can't--we were only one small piece of this. But certainly from the FDIC's perspective we had committed to continue talking with the Fed and Treasury and examine the facts and analyze to what extent assistance would be appropriate. We had not made any decisions during that time period, no. Mr. Cummings. This is not you saying this. This is me saying this. One could certainly read this as Mr. Lewis pulling a fast one on his board to get them to approve the deal. Unless you want to comment. Ms. Bair. I think I will stay away from that. Mr. Cummings. I am sorry? Ms. Bair. I think I will stay away from that. Thank you. Mr. Cummings. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. Chairman Towns. Thank you very much. I thank the gentleman from Maryland for his questions. Now yield to the ranking member of the committee, Mr. Jordan of Ohio. Mr. Jordan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairwoman Bair, let me--I have looked at your record, and you were a professor of regulatory policy, and--very impressive--and I am just curious, on a broad context are you, like I am, a bit troubled--frankly, for me, it is more than a bit--troubled by this what I have called unprecedented involvement by the government in the private sector? Whether we are talking President of the United States deciding who gets to be CEO of General Motors, whether we are talking about the fact that we now have in the United States of America something I thought I would never see but a Federal Government pay czar telling private American citizens how much money they can make, and bailouts, and TARP, and second stimulus coming in, on and on it goes. So just as an accomplished professional individual, are you nervous about this general direction and, again, this unprecedented involvement of the government in the private marketplace? Ms. Bair. Absolutely. And we think better tools are needed for the government to deal with this in different ways going forward. We are very much opposed to--and I believe the House bill does this, prohibits capital investments in banks and financial institutions going forward. I think government ownership of financial institutions has created not only a lot of public outcry and cynicism but also very difficult issues about what should be private entities and private sector decisions, based, obviously, on some prudential regulatory standards. But government ownership has created a whole list of problems, and we would like to end that going forward. Mr. Jordan. OK. With that being said, let me take you back--and this, again, as I pointed out in my opening statement, was brought out when we first had Ken Lewis in front of this committee several months ago. The meeting that took place here in D.C. with the nine largest banks 10 days after the TARP legislation was passed--and, again, the TARP legislation was passed designed to go in and get these troubled assets off the books, free up credit, straighten up these balance sheets, et cetera. Ten days later, the nine biggest banks were brought to the Nation's Capital. According to Mr. Lewis' testimony, Mr. Paulson and Mr. Bernanke and you were in that meeting; and Mr. Lewis indicated he had no idea what the meeting was about. That the meeting went with a piece of paper slid across the table to the banks telling them how much money they were now going to take from the TARP program, whether they asked for it or not, and that they had to sign a statement saying they were in agreement to that. Is his recollection of that meeting accurate? Is that in fact what took place? Again, not 10 days after we were told--the Congress of the United States was told that the TARP program, the money that was made available be used for something entirely different. Ms. Bair. Right. I was invited to attend that meeting. I was not involved in decisions about who should come to that meeting and who was going to get what. My role was confined to explaining the temporary liquidity guarantee program, the debt guarantee program. The only remarks I made were to explain that program, and I did not opine or comment at all on the capital investments piece. We were not involved in decisionmaking, and we remained silent during that discussion. But, yes, these banks were strongly encouraged to take this money. Mr. Jordan. Going back to your answer to my first question, though, were you troubled that day about what you saw taking place in that meeting in light of the fact you just said--you made two statements already today. You said you were troubled by this unprecedented involvement of the government in the private sector; and you also said, in an answer to Mr. Issa's question earlier, that the government should act as one. So were you sitting in that meeting troubled by what you saw taking place in that meeting, again 10 days after the legislation had been passed for an entirely different purpose? Ms. Bair. Yes. I think--two things. I think these decisions were made in the fog of war. These decisions had to be made very quickly, and the situation was becoming more and more destabilizing. And, also, there had been an international agreement to use a combination of liquidity guarantees. We were involved in liquidity guarantees and capital investments to stabilize the system. Frankly, the idea of it took my breath away, and it was quite unprecedented in terms of the private sector system that we have. And so I was concerned, and I have---- Mr. Jordan. Was that the first time--did you know what was going to take place in that meeting, or did you come into that meeting much like Ken Lewis and the rest of the other---- Ms. Bair. We were told in advance who was going to come and that they were going to be asked to take--or encouraged to take capital investments. We were absolutely told that in advance. I did not weigh in one way or the other. I confined my role to explaining the debt guarantee program. I have said in retrospect I wish we had weighed in, because I think, again, government ownership in banks has created a whole host of problems. And, by the way, on troubled asset relief, I think we still need a program, and we would like to see maybe perhaps Congress authorize that going forward. That still needs to be done and has to be done. Mr. Jordan. Mr. Chairman, real quick--I appreciate what you said, Ms. Chairwoman. I think this has been very helpful. If I could just ask one other question, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Towns. Go ahead. Mr. Jordan. The talk this week is about using TARP dollars for stimulus, for something outside of the scope. Ms. Bair. Right. Mr. Jordan. Again, I think it was done already. But I totally disagree with this. Your thoughts, if you would, on the idea of using TARP money for a second stimulus. Ms. Bair. Well, I think you are asking me something beyond my pay grade, because I like to confine my public comments to areas where I think appropriately fall within my sphere as chairman of the FDIC. I do think that there needs to be more focus in terms of troubled asset relief. We still have toxic assets on the books of banks. Particularly the smaller banks really did not benefit from the capital investments. The smaller banks are a large share of small business lending, but their need to continue to work out and reserve against these legacy loans that they have is inhibiting their ability to engage in new lending. So we do think it would be appropriate and consistent with the Troubled Asset Relief Program to try to deal with that problem. But, beyond that, I would not want to opine about other uses that others might want to make of the TARP money. Chairman Towns. The gentleman's time has expired. Mr. Jordan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Towns. I now yield to the gentleman from Virginia, Congressman Connolly. Mr. Connolly. I thank the chairman. Welcome, Chairwoman Bair. And I am going to ask you to move your mic closer. I cannot hear you sitting here because of the acoustics in this room. I am listening to my friend from Ohio, and he loves to use the phrase ``this unprecedented Federal intervention in the financial sector'', as if we didn't have the worst meltdown in 70 years a year ago September. Let me ask you, wearing your FDIC hat, as somebody who has an interest in insuring deposits in depository institutions regulated by the Federal Government, so what if we hadn't had that unprecedented Federal intervention by a Republican administration, by the way? What would have happened to the banking sector in America, wearing your FDIC hat. Ms. Bair. I think it wasn't pretty. It wasn't perfect. I think retrospect and hindsight always has additional wisdom. Mr. Connolly. So should we not have done anything? Ms. Bair. No, we had to do something, and it did stabilize the system. I absolutely agree with that. Something needed to be done, and that was the decision that was made, and it did stabilize the system. Mr. Connolly. So intervention was necessary, in your view? Ms. Bair. Intervention was absolutely necessary. Mr. Connolly. Now, the intervention that was designed, this came from some pointy-headed liberal academic from some Ivy League College, right? It didn't come from a Republican Secretary of State and a Republican administration, did it? Ms. Bair. I am sorry, what are you referring to? Mr. Connolly. Who proposed the idea of the TARP? Ms. Bair. Oh, the TARP. The TARP was proposed by, yes, the Treasury and the Fed. Mr. Connolly. Oh. Not a pointy-headed liberal academic from an Ivy League college? By a Republican businessman who was the Republican-appointed Secretary of the Treasury in a Republican administration. Is that correct? Ms. Bair. Yes, that is my recollection of how---- Mr. Issa. If the gentleman would yield? Mr. Connolly. No, I am not going to yield. Let me ask you a question. In your testimony you say that you have, wearing your FDIC hat, a direct interest in both Bank of America and Merrill Lynch because they are depository institutions. Is that correct? Ms. Bair. That is right. Well, Merrill Lynch is not. Mr. Connolly. I am sorry? Ms. Bair. Bank of America, the bank is an insured depository institution. Merrill Lynch was an investment bank. Mr. Connolly. I know, but I am reading from your testimony. Ms. Bair. Right. Mr. Connolly. OK. And you assert that FDIC has a continuing stake in the financial well-being of those insured depository institutions. Ms. Bair. Right. Mr. Connolly. OK. So what was the view of the FDIC at the time the Bank of America proposed to acquire Merrill Lynch? Was that a good business decision? Was that a risky business decision? Were you aware of the fact that they had unprecedented losses, by the way, without unprecedented Federal regulatory intervention? Ms. Bair. Well, a couple of things. We are not the holding company regulator. The Fed is. And we do not approve mergers and acquisitions. The Fed does. We are also not the primary regulator for Bank of America. Mr. Connolly. I understand. Ms. Bair. We insure them. We have backup supervisory authority. So I think in terms of the more intimate knowledge of that situation would come from the Fed and the OCC. As backup supervisor, frankly, we must rely on the primary regulator. If there starts to be troubles, then we move in. But without red flags, no. With those caveats, I was not aware until we got these phone calls and started looking into it that Merrill Lynch had such significant losses in the fourth quarter. They were quite profound. Mr. Connolly. Let me ask you, we have a bill that is pending before the floor of the House of Representatives today that would constitute a major overhaul of regulation and for the first time finally allow some oversight of the risky derivatives market, for example, and would, in effect, extend some Federal oversight and regulation of investment banking by any other name, not many are left, none of which existed previously. In retrospect, just given your financial expertise, do you think we made a mistake to explicitly exempt derivatives, a multi-trillion dollar market, from any Federal regulation? Ms. Bair. Oh, absolutely. That was a mistake. Absolutely. Mr. Connolly. So, again, this unprecedented Federal intervention in the financial markets, in the case of derivatives, since there is no such unprecedented Federal intervention at the moment, maybe in retrospect we should have had some? Ms. Bair. I think we absolutely should have had more regulation in a lot of areas and particularly in OTC derivatives. There is no question in my mind about that. Mr. Connolly. Thank you. And my final question, does the FDIC have a point of view with respect to the extension of FDIC that is contained in the bill that is pending before the House today? Is that a good idea to extend the FDIC and finance that extension by having the big banks have an extra fee rather than taxpayers do it? Ms. Bair. Right. Yes, we do support. We have said that for banks and bank holding companies that have insured depository institutions we would like to be the resolution authority. For nonbanks, we will let Congress decide that. And I think they have decided they would like one entity doing it all. And, yes, we think that this should be a very robust resolution mechanism that provides no open bank assistance, no conservatorship, everyone goes into receivership, their shareholders and creditors take losses. That is the process that we use for banks, and that is the process that works. And so, yes, and we think the working capital needs for this fund should be provided through a risk-based assessment on the larger financial entities. And, again, this could be another lever, another tool to discourage excessive risk taking. So we do support that part of it. Mr. Connolly. Thank you. My time is up. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Towns. The gentleman's time has expired. I now yield to the gentleman from Missouri, Mr. Luetkemeyer. Mr. Luetkemeyer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Madam Chairwoman, thank you for being here this morning. I am just kind of curious, now that we have some nonbanks that are banks and Lehman Brothers has been absorbed by BofA, have you been in to examine that portion of BofA? Have you been in to examine the bank itself? Have you been in to examine like Goldman Sachs and those folks at all since this all took place? Ms. Bair. I cannot comment on specific institutions. Let me tell you generally what we are doing, which is, right now, we have backup authority only for insured depository institutions. So activities outside of insured depository institutions like investment banking, even though they might be part of a broader holding company structure, we have no authority there. That is the exclusive domain of the---- Mr. Luetkemeyer. Goldman Sachs is now a bank, is it not? Ms. Bair. No, because the insured depository institution is only a subsidiary of a larger bank holding company structure. This has been a problem for us. And another positive thing that we think the House bill does is give us backup authority over everything in the holding company. Right now, it is only over the piece that has the deposit insurance, which is not the whole thing. Mr. Luetkemeyer. Do you think that there needs to be some ability to regulate and have some oversight over some of these off balance sheet liabilities that a lot of these folks are involved with? Ms. Bair. Absolutely. Yes. Mr. Luetkemeyer. What are your plans do that? Ms. Bair. Well, fortunately, the accountants have done a lot of it already. We are implementing FAS 166 and 167, which basically requires that these off balance sheet exposures now be counted on balance sheet. So you have to hold capital and reserves against them. So we will be finalizing rules next week to make clear that you need to hold capital and reserves from the regulatory capital, that we will treat those as on balance sheet assets. On the derivatives area, the OTC derivatives area, I think Congress needs to act on that. Because of the Commodity Futures Modernization Act, there is very little authority to provide product regulation or market regulation; and we have been working with the SEC and the CFTC to strengthen that. And we are generally supportive of that. Mr. Luetkemeyer. OK. You mentioned a while ago that all our banks are in great shape, yet this last year or two we have had almost a record number of bank failures within a short period of time. Ms. Bair. I don't know that I said---- Mr. Luetkemeyer. How many more failures do you anticipate over the next year or 2 years? Ms. Bair. I would not say--I think most banks continue to be profitable and--but there are clearly some under distress. And we do not publicly release our failed bank projections, but it will continue to go up. We think it will peak next year. Mr. Luetkemeyer. I understand. OK. But your comment earlier was also with regards to a lot of small banks are having to absorb some of these--they are part of the ripple effect of some of the big guys here and are certainly under stress at this point. Do you have any plans for some forbearance for those folks to allow them to be able to withstand this and to outlive some of these problems so that they are not going to be closed as a result of some of the actions of some of the big guys? And while we had forbearance with the big folks and helped them get over this, we don't have TARP funds available for the small guys. And if we don't have forbearance for those folks, they are the ones who are going to suffer disproportionately compared to what the other folks have. And while it may not be a big deal to the folks who are concerned with BofA, it certainly is going to impact a lot of community banks in my district and a lot of small districts around this country. Ms. Bair. Well, Congressman, by statute, if a bank becomes insolvent or can no longer meet its liquidity demands, it needs to be closed. There is a very well-defined, prompt corrective action procedure in the statute. We cannot provide open bank assistance unless there is a systemic risk and then only if the Fed and the Treasury and the President agrees. By statute, we cannot provide---- Mr. Luetkemeyer. With all due respect, Madam Chair, my question, though, is are you going to have some forbearance on those folks because of the unusual circumstances that they find themselves in through no fault of their own, only being a participant in investing in some things that wound up getting them into trouble? And they don't have the opportunity, like you just said, for some of the TARP funds and things like this. Is there willingness on your part to look at these situations on a case-by-case basis and say, hey, the rest of the bank has been profitable; it has been under good management; just this one area is a problem; and, therefore, we are going to deal with this and work with them on this and not close them down as a result of that? Is there a willingness to look at that situation? Ms. Bair. We have done that already, I think. We released and were able to get interagency agreement on some guidelines recently that explicitly allow banks to do loan restructurings with the commercial real estate loans. It needs to be disclosed and well documented and only if you have a creditworthy borrower that continues to make repayments on a restructured loan. We tried do that already. I guess my only point is, though, Congressman, once the institution no longer becomes viable under the statutory criteria, there is no flexibility to provide forbearance. And I think these rules were put in place after the S&L crisis, where there is forbearance and there is forbearance. And sometimes if forbearance just denies the problem that exists and delays the closing, it will end up costing the government more money, which is what happened during the S&L days. So we do need to be careful. But, absolutely, for the healthier institutions that can make it, we are trying to give them flexibility to work these loans out. Mr. Luetkemeyer. OK. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you. Chairman Towns. The gentleman's time has expired. I now yield 5 minutes to the gentleman from Louisiana, Mr. Cao. Mr. Cao. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman; and I would like to continue questioning concerning community banks similar to Mr. Luetkemeyer. Because, in Louisiana, many of the banking systems are community based banks, and they are impacted tremendously by the financial overhaul that we are looking at in the Congress. Madam Chair, can you provide me with the number of banks that have failed in Louisiana? Ms. Bair. I do not know that off the top of my head, but I will certainly get it to you this afternoon when I get back to my office. Mr. Cao. OK. But probably it is either none or extremely few. Ms. Bair. I would really need to check. I am sorry, Congressman, but we have had about--I think we will have about 140 failures, and it is very difficult to know State by State. I will get that information back to you very quickly. Mr. Cao. That is fine. The community banks in Louisiana, they did not involve themselves in the subprime mortgage mess; and, as such, many of them were profitable in the past years, while some of the big banks have failed. My question to you here is, why are we making these small community banks, who were successful, who operated within the boundaries of the traditional loaning criteria, they followed the rules, why are we making them pay for the faults of the big banks through this tremendous overhaul process? Ms. Bair. Well, I think--two things. I think you are right. Community banks generally did not make subprime, they didn't make these high risk mortgages, they did engage in commercial real estate lending. Some of that was not prudent. A lot of it was. They were good loans when they were made, but because of the economy they are going bad now. And as the economic problems continue, more and more of the failures are driven by that. But, again, banks must hold certain levels of capital and loan loss reserves against their loans. And if their loans are going to have losses that exceed their capital capabilities, they become insolvent. Or if they can't meet their liquidity demands, if depositors want to withdraw money and they can't have enough cash to do that, then they need to be resolved. And that is--again, there is a fairly well-defined procedure in our statutes to do that. I think this Congress, you know, again back to the conversation about the appropriate use of TARP going forward and troubled asset relief, I think this is a ripe area, especially for smaller banks, to provide some assistance, continued need for troubled asset relief for the smaller institutions. And we would be very strongly supportive. But our statute does not allow us to provide open bank assistance to large or small institutions, again, unless it is under this very narrow systemic risk exception. Mr. Cao. It seems to me that the small banks are being penalized for the actions of bigger banks. Ms. Bair. I am greatly troubled, and I have spoken out about this for a long time, of the different treatment between large and small. And the very large get the TARP money and get the support and the small ones get closed. I don't like that. Going forward, I would like to close the big ones, too. I mean, I think that is really--if we are going to have a free market system, not a free-for-all system but a free market system, I think going forward the resolution regime needs to be able to work for small and large institutions, and right now it can only work for the smaller ones. But the immediate problem, you are right. It is not fair, and we have said that TARP needs--we need to figure out a way to make TARP work better for the smaller institutions. And, again, with troubled asset relief, not so much capital investments, I think that is a problem. But troubled asset relief, providing support there to help them get rid of these bad loans so they can make new loans, we are very supportive of that and work with Treasury, work with Congress on trying to make those programs more effective. Mr. Cao. Can you explain to me--I agree with you that the big bank institutions that were involved in these subprime mortgage loans, we need to have a better mechanism of overseeing their operations. But can you explain to me how regulating these smaller community banks that are already regulated by State law, how would that improve our country's financial health when they have been profitable, when they have been following the traditional methods of loaning? They were not involved or did not contribute to this financial mess? How would regulating them improve our financial health? Ms. Bair. First of all, no Louisiana failures. My staff just handed me a note. So no failures in your State. I think we provide supervision, obviously, of small and large banks because they have deposit insurance. There is a government exposure there. If they get in trouble, we always protect the insured depositors. So with that comes prudential supervision, and that has been the cover for over 75 years. I think, moving forward, my concern from a supervisory perspective with the smaller banks is helping them diversify their balance sheet. Because of unlevel playing fields between large and small institutions, as well as between insured depositor institutions and the shadow sector, the nonbank sector, community banks have been relegated primarily to commercial real estate lending and small business lending; and they provide good support for their communities in those two areas, but they don't have much diversification. They got the mortgages taken away from them, a lot of the consumer credit taken away from them, and I think a lot of that has been driven through an unlevel regulatory requirement. So, going forward, I would change that to help them further diversify their balance sheet and get back to where we used to be with community banking, where they were in a position to offer a more full range of services to their communities. Chairman Towns. The gentleman's time has expired. Let me announce that we have 3 minutes left on the vote, and of course we will return 10 minutes after the last vote. I understand there are three votes. Madam Chair, let me thank you very much for coming this morning. We will now recess until 10 minutes after the last vote. The committee is in recess. [Recess.] Chairman Towns. The committee will reconvene. Our second witness today is Mr. Robert Khuzami, Director of the Division of Enforcement at the Securities and Exchange Commission. It is committee policy that all witnesses are sworn in. So if you would stand and raise your right hand. [Witness sworn.] Chairman Towns. You may be seated. Let the record reflect that the witness answered in the affirmative. Mr. Khuzami, you may begin. STATEMENT OF ROBERT KHUZAMI, DIRECTOR, DIVISION OF ENFORCEMENT, U.S. SECURITIES AND EXCHANGE COMMISSION Mr. Khuzami. Thank you, Chairman Towns, Ranking Member Issa, Congressman Kucinich. My name is Robert Khuzami, and I am the Director of Division of Enforcement at the Securities and Exchange Commission. I became director on March 29th of this year. Thank you for the opportunity to testify on behalf of the SEC regarding Bank of America's acquisition of Merrill Lynch. The committee's invitation asks about the SEC's litigation against Bank of America. Because the enforcement action is ongoing, discussion of certain aspects of this litigation pose a risk of negatively affecting our case. I am happy, however, to discuss elements of our publicly filed court papers. The complaint in our case concerns a November 2008, joint proxy statement that Bank of America and Merrill sent to their shareholders soliciting shareholder approval for Bank of America's acquisition of Merrill. The complaint alleges that the proxy statement violated proxy solicitation provisions because it contained material faults and misleading statements. Specifically, we allege that Bank of America represented in the proxy statement that Merrill had agreed not to pay year-end performance bonuses to its executives prior to the closing of the merger without Bank of America's consent. Bank of America, however, failed to disclose that it already had consented to Merrill's payment of up to $5.8 billion in discretionary year- end and other bonuses to Merrill executives. That complaint alleges Bank of America's omission of the information rendering the proxy statement misleading and false. At the time we filed our complaint, the Commission submitted a consent judgment for the court's consideration under which Bank of America agreed to settle on terms that included payment of $33 million and the entry of an injunction prohibiting it from further proxy solicitation violations. As you know, the judge declined to approve the settlement, and the litigation is thus ongoing. The judge's decision has not affected our underlying case, which is set for trial in March of next year. We stand by our charges, and have used the additional discovery available in the litigation to further pursue the facts and to determine whether or not additional claims are appropriate. In determining how to proceed, we will, as always, be guided by what the facts warrant and the law provides. With regard to the proposed settlement, we believe it was reasonable, appropriate, and in the public interest, and also properly balanced to relevant factors that must be considered when assessing any settlement. Where a corporate issuer fails to meet its statutory obligations, the need for deterrence is paramount. The proposed penalty, which would have been the second largest ever imposed in a proxy statement case, would have sent a clear message that proxy solicitations must include the substance of separate nonpublic documents when the failure to do so results in material misrepresentations or omissions. It also clearly communicated to shareholders and the public that management had failed to keep the company in compliance with securities laws and undercut the position now asserted by Bank of America that there was no legal requirement to disclose such information. Importantly, these objectives would have been achieved in a way that did not place an undue burden on shareholders. Although a $33 million penalty is a significant amount, it is not likely to have had a material adverse financial impact on individual innocent shareholders, given the billions of shares of Bank of America stock then outstanding. You have also asked why our complaint did not charge individuals. The SEC pursued the charges we believe were appropriate based on the investigative record and applicable law. The securities provisions that govern proxy statements are directed to those who solicit proxies or in whose name proxies are solicited. Here, the corporations solicited the proxies. As such, the Bank of America had a legal obligation that we alleged it failed to meet. To establish that individuals aided and abetted a proxy solicitation violation or committed frauds under the security laws, it is necessary to prove scienter, or knowing or reckless misconduct. Based on the record that existed at that time, we did not believe that we could fairly and properly assert scienter-based charges against individuals under the applicable legal standards. We have followed and will continue to follow any additional evidence developed wherever it leads. I want to be clear that the proposed settlement in no way reflects a change in the Commission's approach to pursuing charges against individuals who violate the Federal securities laws. The Commission has been and will continue to be aggressive in bringing actions against individuals who violate the securities laws and also will continue to vigorously pursue penalties from culpable individuals, including corporate executives. In fact, as outlined in my written testimony, the Commission recently has filed a number of enforcement actions against corporate executives charging violations of the Federal securities laws and seeking extensive remedies. Thank you for the opportunity to address these important issues, and I look forward to answering your questions. [The prepared statement of Mr. Khuzami follows:] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Chairman Towns. Thank you very much. Again, we apologize for the break, but we have to vote around here. Mr. Khuzami, I know you are currently preparing the case against Bank of America. I don't want to do anything or say anything that is going to jeopardize your case, but in general what is the SEC--what do they believe Bank of America did wrong? What do you think happened here that was wrong? Mr. Khuzami. Mr. Chairman, in our complaint we allege that the proxy materials that were sent to shareholders, which was the basis upon which they would decide as to whether or not to vote to approve the merger, stated that Merrill Lynch could not pay discretionary bonuses without the consent of Bank of America. In fact, what the proxy solicitation did not disclose, that there already had been an agreement that Bank of America would allow Merrill to pay up to $5.8 billion in exactly those kinds of bonuses. So the proxy was misleading because it suggested that no consent had been given and no such bonuses would be paid without such consent when in fact the consent had already been given. Chairman Towns. I know you are a very serious prosecutor, and that is what we need in this day and age. What can we expect from the SEC going forward in terms of aggressive enforcement against corporate wrongdoers? What can we expect from this point on? We are talking about a lot of money here. Mr. Khuzami. I understand. Look, first, I would point to the recent cases that we have brought against corporate executives. In the mortgage fraud area alone we have charged the CEOs, the CFOs, or other senior executives in New Century, Countrywide, American Home Mortgage, Brookstreet Securities. We charged Hank Greenberg and another official at AIG. Just in the recent past we have gone vigorously after those individuals who we believe were heading companies that engaged in one form or another of fraud or wrongdoing, particularly with respect to mortgage and mortgage- related products. So I think past is prologue, and you will continue to see that kind of approach. Under Chairman Mary Shapiro, we are embarking on a number of internal efforts to streamline our processes and make ourselves more responsive, but we are reinvigorated and rededicated to that effort. Chairman Towns. But you do feel that you have the tools to be able to do the job that needs to be done, that no legislation or anything is required in order to be able to move forward with this aggressive approach? The word around here now is robust approach. Mr. Khuzami. Robust, yes. Yes. We have a number of legislative proposals that we have presented, particularly involving hedge fund registration; the creation of a central clearing party for derivative transactions; more and better information on exactly the kind of trading and activity that goes on in some of these over-the-counter and opaque markets. In addition, we have sought legislation regarding nationwide service of process and some other things to help make our job easier. And last, of course, funding is a significant issue. We have--I think the last statistics I saw--over 35,000 regulated entities that the SEC is responsible for between issuers, broker-dealers, investment advisors, transfer agents, credit rating agencies; and that is before we get to hedge fund registration. Despite those numbers, the enforcement staff is 1,100, total. I think that additional funding would also go a long way toward helping us complete our mission. Chairman Towns. Thank you very much. Thank you for your testimony. I now yield to the gentleman from California, the ranking member, Mr. Issa. Mr. Issa. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Khuzami, I know you were not on board on December 18th of last year, but are you familiar with the document dated December 10th, which was delivered to the Fed on that date, which is called the ``fourth quarter 2008 walk-down,'' the so- called ``walk-down document?'' Mr. Khuzami. I do not believe that I have seen that, Congressman. Mr. Issa. Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent this be placed in the record at this time. Chairman Towns. Without objection. Mr. Issa. It is already in our information, but I want to make sure it is in the record at this point. Chairman Towns. Without objection, so ordered. [The information referred to follows:] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Mr. Issa. I apologize; December 17th I believe it was delivered. It probably would not surprise you to know that it actually--on page 6 it lays out those bonuses. Mr. Bernanke, Mr. Paulson had that on those days in December. Had you been in the room when this was delivered--in other words you, the SEC--would you have then been aware of the failure of the proxy in time to at least begin action at that point in December? Mr. Khuzami. Well, I guess you would have to know exactly what was said in the proxy and compare that to the information that was then available. Mr. Issa. But you knew that. You have compliance people. You were hand-in-hand, and you get paid to make sure that the public is protected throughout the process of a merger. So let me ask you the real question. We are the Government Oversight Committee, and it is a double entendre because we oversee the government. We are also the government entity that oversees a number of things that are outside the government; but in this case, the Federal Reserve, the Treasury, and the SEC--as I understand it through testimony again and again, the SEC was locked out of this process during that time and did not get into the process until January. Isn't that correct? Your agency was not informed of what the Fed was doing or the Treasury was doing, and you were not at these meetings? You were conspicuous in your absence, right? Mr. Khuzami. I understand that is correct, yes. Mr. Issa. So from a standpoint of the Securities and Exchange Commission, the respect the Treasury and the Fed should show in the future, shouldn't you be at the table if tens of billions of dollars of taxpayers' money are being thrown in to complete a merger; and at the moment that an executive, a party says, I'm looking at the MAC clause, I'm looking at breaking up this because things have changed, or things were not disclosed, or we have learned something, wouldn't that, in your opinion, be an absolute mandate for the Securities and Exchange Commission to be in the room from that time forward? Mr. Khuzami. Congressman, I think if it was a matter that impacted on the SEC's jurisdiction or responsibilities with respect to shareholder disclosure, regulation of the securities markets, the answer would be ``yes.'' Mr. Issa. Now I'm going to ask you a hypothetical, but it is not much of a hypothetical. If you'd been in the room on September 17th, 18th, 19th, if you'd been in the room when they said, this is not going to go forward because there have been material adverse effects, and on top of that, you were aware of misstatements in the proxy, would you have interjected at least your oversight, your opinion, and your demand that compliance to law be adhered to, which it wasn't? Mr. Khuzami. Well, I'm not sure that I would have commented on whether or not a MAC clause was properly invoked or not. Mr. Issa. But we have already had testimony that if they invoked the MAC, they have to go back to the stockholders. Mr. Khuzami. Correct. Mr. Issa. The Federal Government came in with $20 billion-- and there's some debate about whether it was forced on B of A or B of A demanded it. Regardless of which one that is, at that point when there's new money, a MAC clause, or money in lieu of you, and on top of that, material misinformation in the proxy, shouldn't you be in the room; and more importantly, if you are in the room, wouldn't you have acted to at least advise--and let's assume you're willing to take on the Fed chairman and the Secretary of the Treasury--that, in fact, they're crossing lines at that point that should not be crossed, they are failing to disclose to the very stockholders, the public that you protect? Mr. Khuzami. If those events triggered disclosure obligations, we would certainly communicate that. Mr. Issa. For Christ's sake, we have had five, six hearings. Mr. Kucinich has dedicated probably a whole wall of his library to this very question. And you're saying ``if.'' Let's go back again. They failed to disclose these bonuses. The Fed and the Treasury became aware of that. They also became aware that these losses were mounting, and through a negotiation behind closed doors in which you were locked out, they negotiated additional money, now repaid, but additional money to make BofA go through with this deal or to encourage or, in fact on their demand, to have them go through. So all of that occurred with your agency locked out of the room. Are you going to tell me today--if there was something to be reported, are you going to say, like Sheila Bair that was here earlier, Yes, I would like to have been in the room, and if I had been in the room, or when I was in the room, I wish I had said or done more. Which is it? Are you going to say the SEC should darn well be in the room and be protecting stockholders, or are you going to say ``if,'' ``if,'' ``if'' today? Which one is it? Mr. Khuzami. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. Mr. Issa. I think I did. Mr. Khuzami. Yes, you did. Very clear. My only point was that we would certainly like to be in the room any time there are discussions that go on that affect shareholders and the entities and individuals that we regulate and protect. My only point was a more modest one--whether or not discussions about invoking a MAC clause necessarily triggered disclosure obligations under the Federal securities laws. Mr. Issa. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for your indulgence. I think we made the point that Mr. Kucinich and I have both been wanting to make, and I look forward to continuing to followup on it. I yield back. Chairman Towns. Right. At this time I would yield to the Chair of the Domestic Policy Subcommittee, the gentleman from Ohio, Mr. Kucinich. Mr. Kucinich. Mr. Chairman, I just want to say at the outset to my friend from California that there's a distinction between what you're discussing and what our subcommittee has been doing; and that is that you're talking about disclosure events that occurred after the shareholder vote. Our focus in this subcommittee has been about disclosure events before the shareholder vote. Now, Mr. Khuzami, my subcommittee investigation has found that Bank of America relied on the November 12th forecast for fourth quarter 2008, created by Merrill Lynch, that omitted any forecast of how collateralized debt obligations, subprime mortgage-backed securities, credit default swaps, would perform in the quarter. The former Merrill CFO admitted to staff that the November 12th forecast was not in fact a valid forecast. Bank of America knew at the time that the November 12th forecast was of questionable validity; it's in quotes. However, Bank of America did not do any actual financial analysis to make up for the Merrill omissions. Instead, Bank of America merely pulled out of thin air a number on November 13th, which was recorded on the forecast document as the ``gut'' feeling of Neil Cotty, Bank of America's chief accounting officer. The attorneys at Bank of America and at Wachtell Lipton did not question; in spite of the omission and the explicit reference to a ``gut'' feeling, they advised Bank of America not to make further disclosures to its shareholders in advance of the merger vote based on the information in the deficient forecast and a ``gut'' feeling. The November 12th forecast omission of any projection for losses and the CDOs and other liquid investments and the implication that Merrill Lynch would break even in those investments for the remainder of the quarter was material to the advice attorneys gave Bank of America. Now when I asked Ken Lewis about this at our first hearing, he told us he relied on advice of counsel. Protecting shareholders is often, in the final instance, the responsibility of corporate general counsels and/or outside counsel. This subcommittee's investigative findings demand the question: Where were the lawyers, the glaring omissions, inaccurate financial data, and the critical November 12th forecast so obvious that they should have alerted the attorneys to a necessity of a reasonable investigation before making a decision on Bank of America's legal duties to disclose. The apparent fact they did not mount such an investigation makes the decision not to disclose Merrill's loss to the shareholders an egregious violation of security laws. Mr. Khuzami, in March, GAO issued a scathing report on the effect of Christopher Cox's leadership of the SEC in reducing corporate penalties and formal investigations at exactly the time that the CDOs and CDSs were proliferating. To Chairman Shapiro's credit, she rescinded the Cox policy and appointed you to reinvigorate the Enforcement Division. Now I am concerned that one pernicious aspect of the Cox legacy may have survived: the unwillingness to pursue, as GAO wrote, ``more complicated cases, those with industrywide implications, in favor of those seen as more routine.'' Mr. Khuzami, this is the test case. This is the case with industrywide implications, where what is at issue is the performance of the attorneys in interpreting the Nation's security laws strictly or permissively. Here's the case where the SEC's Shapiro breaks with the SEC's Christopher Cox. Mr. Khuzami, is the SEC widening its investigation to include the issue of Bank of America's failure to disclose to its shareholders the mounting losses at Merrill Lynch, known or knowable by mid-November 2008, weeks before--weeks before the shareholder vote on the merger? Mr. Khuzami. Congressman, we have been and are looking at all aspects of the activity with respect to the proxy statements, including the fourth quarter losses at Merrill Lynch. Mr. Kucinich. Is that a ``yes'' or a ``no?'' Mr. Khuzami. That's a yes. Mr. Kucinich. If it's a ``yes,'' then the work of this committee has been worthwhile, because you now have a chance to do your job. Because we have done ours, and the information that we have uncovered should facilitate your investigation. I thank the gentleman. I thank the Chair. I yield back. Chairman Towns. Thank you very much. I now yield to the gentleman from Missouri, Mr. Luetkemeyer. Mr. Luetkemeyer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Khuzami, Messrs. Bernanke and Paulson were negotiating with Merrill Lynch and Bank of America and sort of came to an agreement, yet they didn't disclose this. They didn't want to put in writing the transaction that they were about to embark on here and about to approve and had been working with. My understanding is that once they did that, that would have been a disclosable event that the SEC would have been able to come into and be a part of and have some oversight over. What is your opinion of this transaction and how it all happened, and this unwillingness to put this in writing? Mr. Khuzami. Congressman, what the securities laws require is that if that understanding had solidified to a material contract, then it would have been required to have been disclosed under what is known as Form 8-K. So Bank of America would have had to make a disclosure if it rose to the level of an enforceable contract. Mr. Luetkemeyer. But isn't this skirting the law by them saying, We are going to have a little wink-and-nod agreement here and let's just have a gentleman's handshake on it? I mean, aren't they trying to subvert what really is a necessary part of a transaction, the disclosure to all parties involved? Mr. Khuzami. Congressman, it wouldn't be appropriate to comment on my views of that in light of the ongoing nature of the investigation, but certainly there can be circumstances where there's an enforceable contract, even though it's not formally written down, in which case it may trigger the disclosure obligations. Mr. Luetkemeyer. Following along that process, do you see something that's happened here that you think needs to be changed in existing law? Do we need to have something more clarified by the way we have these transactions take place, so that there's more disclosure? Mr. Khuzami. Congressman, we sort of constantly review our disclosure rules and regulations to determine whether or not more disclosure or different disclosure is appropriate. That process is ongoing now. The Sarbanes-Oxley Act required us to consider more real-time or robust disclosure, and that is a process that continues. We would certainly take the experience here and determine whether or not we should change our rules and regulations appropriately. Mr. Luetkemeyer. You still haven't said, yes, there are some things we need to do, and they are--can you fill in the blank? Mr. Khuzami. The question whether or not events such as these should require more affirmative disclosure obligation is something that we are considering. So, for example, contracts or discussions short of a formal, legally enforceable obligation, should that be disclosed even though all the terms are unfinalized or interim results that may not rise to the level of a material impairment of an asset, which is the current standard, whether or not that should be disclosed. Mr. Luetkemeyer. Are you currently looking at that with your rules and regulations, or do we need to have some congressional action? What do you think we need to do? Mr. Khuzami. Congressman, that is something that we look at on a regular basis and we are looking at now. Mr. Luetkemeyer. As someone who has gone through this and been in the middle of it--and we are in the process now congressionally to try and do something with this too-big-to- fail situation--what do you see that we are not doing with the legislation that's proposed that you think would be advantageous or a big aid to you, or would be something that we could do in the future to mitigate or minimize some of the things that have gone on? Mr. Khuzami. Congressman, from an enforcement perspective, which is my perspective, transparency and information are critical. We cannot determine if misconduct is going on in markets if we don't have complete and accurate and standardized information about what is going on. So, for example, registration of hedge funds, which would require better reporting and stronger client and inspection authority, would be highly beneficial. Mr. Luetkemeyer. Transparency and registration is in the bill right now. Does it go far enough? Does it go too far? What is your opinion? Mr. Khuzami. I'm not sure I understand the full and complete details of what is in the current version of the bill, so if I could have an opportunity to respond to you, I would appreciate that. But the same is true in the derivatives markets. We would like that kind of information. One case we brought, for example, recently, involved insider trader, which typically takes place in the equity world, in stocks, was actually going on in the credit default swap market. Yet we don't have nearly the same kind of information in that market as we do in the equities. Mr. Luetkemeyer. Interesting. Thank you, Mr. Khuzami. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Towns. The gentleman's time has expired. I now call on the gentleman from Baltimore, Mr. Cummings, who is a very active member of this committee. Mr. Cummings. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Khuzami, I've got to tell you, as I listened to my good friend and colleague, Congressman Kucinich, he said, ``Our work is done.'' And I don't think our work is done. Let me tell you why. As you know, the SEC, in the case of the SEC v. Bank of America, there was a settlement that was submitted to the Federal court in New York on August 3, 2009. The settlement agreement provided for the Bank of America to pay $33 million in fines for making false and misleading statements in proxy statements to shareholders. Bank of America, of course, told shareholders that no year-end bonuses would be paid to Merrill Lynch executives, when in fact it had been agreed that Bank of America would pay up to $5.8 billion in bonuses to Merrill executives. Putting aside the fact that $5.8 billion was to be paid to the executives of a company that was hemorrhaging money at the time, the decision to settle the matter for $33 million struck many of us as being a perverse outcome. Here was a company with $45 billion in government assistance, $20 billion of which was from this exact deal; and the Securities and Exchange Commission let them pay a fine. And this is the piece that got me: Pay a fine with our money, with taxpayers' dollars. Does this strike you as fair to the taxpayer shareholders? Does it fit your mission of protecting American investors? To me, it's like you fine somebody and then take somebody else's money to pay the fine. And I'm trying to figure out, where is the punishment in that, where is the enforcement in that? If I'm sitting back, I say, ``Oh, boy, a great day here; got the public's money to pay the fine. Everything is fine. I don't have to pay a dime.'' And then one of the things that I read about the settlement--once I read about it, I fired off a letter to your inspector general, David Coates, asking him to look into the settlement. I just read in Mr. Coates' recent semiannual report to Congress that he is in the midst of this investigation, and I look forward to his conclusions. One of the main reasons I requested the investigation was because I would not be the least bit surprised that in the aftermath of this crisis that further securities laws violations are uncovered and the violations may have occurred at a firm that has received government assistance. In that case, what is the calculus that is used to determine how to punish a company without penalizing the involuntary investors in the firm, the taxpayers? I want you to understand I'm concerned about, when we catch folks, what is the thinking that goes into the process of how to punish them? Because, to me, this was not punishment, and I'm glad the judge did reject it. I know you may not be able to talk about the case, but I assume you can talk about what goes into your thinking as the No. 1 guy who addresses these issues. And the only person that you answer to is Ms. Shapiro, Mary Shapiro; is that right? It's you and straight up to her; is that right? Mr. Khuzami. That's correct. Mr. Cummings. So help me with this. As a lawyer, when I read this, I got so upset because, I said, it makes absolutely no sense. And I know you've got a great answer for me, and I'm waiting to hear it. Mr. Khuzami. Congressman, let me take each of those. First, with respect to the amount of the fine. The penalties that we assess have to be proportionate to the actual wrongdoing that occurred. And here the wrongdoing was not the payment of the bonuses. That may be excessive and wrong as a policy matter, as a corporate governance matter, as a number of other matters; but from a pure enforcement point of view, the wrong was to fail to disclose to shareholders that they said that they would not pay bonuses without Bank of America's approval when they had already agreed to pay the money. And so the wrong was the depravation of information to the shareholders in deciding how to vote, not the fact that the amount of money that was paid was illegal or improper in and of itself. So we look at the wrongdoing. Mr. Cummings. They had a duty to disclose; is that right? Mr. Khuzami. Yes, they have a duty to make sure the statements in the proxy are not misleading. So the number of $5.8 billion, although it was $3.6 billion that was ultimately paid, is not, I don't think, the measure of the wrong. The wrong was that they did not tell shareholders who needed all the information they could to decide whether or not to vote. So that was the starting point. Then we look at the amount. We looked at our precedent. In the proxy violation area, the largest fine that we had imposed was $38 million, give or take or so, in a case involving, frankly, more egregious conduct than this because it involved manipulation of their stock and obstruction and other things, in addition to the proxy violation. Next, we try and balance the benefit of the penalty versus the burden on the shareholders. So we recognize the penalties that we assess may come out of the pockets of shareholders who may themselves have been wronged by the conduct. So we try and balance. But we have to still impose the penalties because it sends a strong deterrent message to other corporations and other issuers that this kind of conduct will not be tolerated. The deterrence message is critical. It tells others they shouldn't do it. It says that if you do it, you're going to pay a cost. It incentivizes them to fix their own problems before we come knocking. It allows us to leverage our limited resources so that companies voluntarily engage in corrective measures rather than us having to go to each one of them. The lawyers read these things, the corporate executives read these decisions; they implement changes. So there's many good reasons to have the penalty, but we don't want to burden the shareholders more than necessary. That's a balancing that we look at under our penalty guidelines, and we come to the best determination that we can. Mr. Cummings. I see my time is up. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Towns. The gentleman's time has expired. The gentlewoman from California, Ms. Speier. Ms. Speier. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Khuzami, I am deeply troubled by your description of what took place. You said that the bank misled the shareholders. The bank didn't mislead the shareholders. It lied to the shareholders. It was a bald-faced lie. Now, on a proxy statement, if you make a bald-faced lie, I think that you should have a penalty that is so strong that you won't ever do it again. Now the courts seem to believe that $33 million was insufficient. Who initiated the settlement? Mr. Khuzami. Congresswoman, this was a settlement that was---- Ms. Speier. Who initiated it? Did SEC go to the Bank of America and say, let's settle this; or did the Bank of America come to the SEC and say, let's settle this? Mr. Khuzami. I don't know the answer to that, Congresswoman. Typically, settlements result from both parties coming together and discussing the possibility of settlement. Ms. Speier. Someone initiates it. If you don't have the answer today, I'd appreciate it if you would make that available to the committee. Mr. Khuzami. Certainly. Ms. Speier. You based your decision on the fact that there was a precedent where $38 million was fined in another setting. Now, you know that the SEC, historically, when you were not a member of the staff, was reducing its enforcement actions dramatically. In fact, the recent GAO study indicated that the enforcement actions had been reduced by some 80 percent and the disgorgement actions I believe by some 60 percent. Presuming those figures are indeed accurate--I may be off a little bit-- you're basing a decision on whether or not to impose a fine on a very anemic SEC that was not doing a good job of enforcing the law. So I guess my real question to you is, if something is substantive, if something is significant, if it is a lie, shouldn't the penalty reflect that? I'm not accepting the fact that somehow, because there was another fine issued before, that somehow should be a measurement, when we know that the SEC wasn't doing its job. Finally, your argument that somehow you've got to balance what happens to the shareholders, if that's the deliberative process you're going to use, then the appropriate fine is never going to be imposed on companies that do, in fact, lie. Mr. Khuzami. As to your latter point, the harm to shareholders who may have been victimized by the wrongful conduct is only one factor amongst eight or nine that we take into account, one of which is the importance of the deterrence impact of the penalty. So I don't want to mislead you to suggest that we only look at whether or not there's harm to shareholders. We look at a variety of factors, including, most importantly, the deterrent effect of the fine. Ms. Speier. Let me ask you this. Based on what the judge has said in this case, if you were to start over again, what would be the fine that you believe would be appropriate for a proxy statement that had a bald-faced lie in it, that shareholders relied on--or prospective shareholders relied on in terms of purchasing the stock? Mr. Khuzami. Congressman, I think the judge's concern in his opinion had to do more with whether or not the fine was too high, because he felt that it was falling--the burden was falling on shareholders who had been victimized by the wrongful conduct, not that it was too low. But reasonable minds can have different opinions on that issue. My belief is the settlement that we struck was fair and appropriate. Ms. Speier. So in terms of further negotiations, will there be another settlement offered up to the judge, or will this go to trial? Mr. Khuzami. The matter is scheduled for trial in early March and the case is proceeding. Ms. Speier. So there will not be any further settlement on this case? Mr. Khuzami. I couldn't predict the future as to whether or not the case will settle or not. As of now, the case is proceeding in the discovery phase and it's scheduled for a March trial. Ms. Speier. I just want to understand. Could you then go back and negotiate a smaller--is what you're saying, that the judge wants a smaller fine imposed? I find that absolutely unbelievable. Mr. Khuzami. No. My only point was that, in the judge's opinion, he indicated that he was concerned about the penalty because he thought that it was being imposed on shareholders who were victimized by the wrongful conduct. Ms. Speier. His opinion was not based on the fact that the fine was too low? Mr. Khuzami. I don't remember whether or not he used exactly those terms, but his point was more that the fine was-- sorry to repeat myself--but the fine was falling on the shareholders victimized by the wrongful conduct. Ms. Speier. Or maybe his focus was that the fine should be imposed on the executives who misled the shareholders and maybe have it taken out of their salaries. Mr. Khuzami. He did question why no individuals were charged, you're absolutely right; but he didn't suggest that the fine should be paid out of the pockets of individuals or particular corporate executives. Chairman Towns. The gentlewoman's time has expired. I now yield 5 minutes to the gentleman from Ohio, the ranking member on the subcommittee. Mr. Jordan. Thank you. Mr. Khuzami, were you here for Ms. Bair's testimony and questioning earlier this morning? Mr. Khuzami. Yes, I was. Mr. Jordan. So you're aware of what she said in confirming what Mr. Lewis had told this committee about the meeting that took place in October, 10 days after TARP had passed, where the nine biggest financial institutions were brought to this town, including Bank of America, and told they were going to have their bank partially nationalized, they were going to have to accept TARP money, they had to sign a form. You heard all that testimony that she gave? Mr. Khuzami. Yes. Mr. Jordan. I guess my point is or my question is--well, let me go back to this. Her testimony to this committee a few hours ago was that action by the Fed, by Mr. Paulson--Treasury Secretary Paulson and Federal Reserve Chairman Bernanke took her breath away when she saw what took place at that meeting. So now, as we move forward, it seems to me that--I guess your testimony--and I apologize for not being here, I was at another commitment. You talked about shareholders being misled. But it seems to me that this unbelievable involvement by the government, the e-mail we have that's been part of the record in earlier hearings from Mr. Lacker, Federal Reserve Bank of Richmond, where he talked about the fact they didn't want a disclosable event so Mr. Paulson, Mr. Bernanke were not willing to put anything in writing about the willingness to help Bank of America with additional TARP dollars. I mean, it seems to me that someone looking at this can say, you know, Bank of America--what was the government's culpability here in running the show and pushing for this deal, particularly Mr. Paulson and Mr. Bernanke? I assume you at the SEC are looking at--I mean, that has to, in my mind, factor into this whole picture, this whole scenario that we have been looking at now for several months. Any response you would have to all that? Mr. Khuzami. Congressman, as we look at these events, we look at the roles of all the participants that are relevant and all of the facts. I guess that would be my response. Mr. Jordan. Yes or no, would potential arguments by Bank of America that the bank and its management were not necessarily completely liable because they were acting at the government's directions? Mr. Khuzami. Well, events that you're talking about I believe occurred after the proxy, and so after the merger had been approved. And so the question is whether or not--with respect to the TARP money, whether or not that understanding had become a material contract that had to be disclosed under the 8-K rules and regulations. So that is certainly an issue. Mr. Jordan. When did you guys first become aware of what was taking place or the mounting losses at Merrill Lynch? When did you first become aware of that? Mr. Khuzami. Unfortunately, I wasn't there until March, so I can't--I don't know the answer to that question. Mr. Jordan. Why do you think--when we have the e-mail saying we don't want disclosable, why do you think there was a reluctance by the Federal Reserve not to have information be made known to the SEC? Mr. Khuzami. It probably wouldn't be appropriate for me to speculate about that. Mr. Jordan. Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Chairman Towns. Thank you very much. I now yield to the gentlewoman from California, Congresswoman Watson. Ms. Watson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for this followup hearing. We have had several in the past, and after listening to the testimony from the Bank of America CEO Kenneth Lewis; the Federal Reserve chairman, Ben Bernanke; former Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson; and officials at the Bank of America, there's still strong questions. And I know the intent of this committee, through its Chair, is to get some of these questions answered so we will know really what took place. We want to hear from you the role of the government and what was played in the negotiations; the quality of the Bank of America's due diligence process; and the motivation behind BofA's attempt to claim a material adverse change [MAC], and the adequacy of their disclosure to shareholders. Can you package all that and clarify it for us? I think this is what, the third or the fourth hearing, Mr. Chairman? Chairman Towns. Fifth. Ms. Watson. Fifth. Let us hear how you would describe the roles that each one of these sectors played. Mr. Khuzami. Well, Congresswoman, involving some or all of the matters that are currently under investigation, I have to be careful about my comments. With respect to the proxy that was sent out in connection with the merger, as we have charged in our complaints, we believe that the disclosure was misleading because Bank of American did not disclose that they already had an agreement to pay bonuses, when they told shareholders that Merrill Lynch would not be paying such bonuses without their consent; but, in fact, consent had already been given. That is the case we charged and that is the case that is proceeding. Ms. Watson. Let me stop you and I want to query these bonuses. Ethically, I don't see how the bonuses could even be in contention when we are bailing out too-big-to-fail institutions with taxpayers' moneys to try to capitalize these big institutions so they can save people's homes, etc. Is a bonus appropriate under the crisis conditions that exist? I just want you to talk about bonuses, and then continue. Mr. Khuzami. Well, Congresswoman, again, from an enforcement perspective, my focus is on what the law requires and whether or not the law has been violated. Ms. Watson. Do bonuses fall under that provision in the law? Mr. Khuzami. Generally not, except in this situation, where they made a representation about what they were going to do about bonuses, and that representation, in our view, was false. Ms. Watson. But that was prior to the collapse, wasn't it? When people signed their contracts, as I understand, they had bonuses attached in there. But the whole condition has changed now, where they have to comply with the provisions that were in the original agreement. Mr. Khuzami. Well, that is correct. The bonuses that were paid in this case were paid, frankly, shortly after the merger was approved. That's correct. Ms. Watson. Would you continue on, please. Mr. Khuzami. There's probably not much more. I don't mean to disappoint you, but probably not much more I would say on that topic. Whether or not bonuses are appropriate and the appropriate level, and the balance between incentivizing talent and retaining talent versus what is an appropriate compensation is probably something that is above my pay grade. Ms. Watson. I've heard that said, to retain talent. That really goes beyond--I feel it's so absurd. I don't think at this point that you couldn't find 1,000--or you could find 1,000 people out there with tremendous talent. If that talent goes, there are people lined up. I mean, we are really being hit hard, and I'm talking about my district now, which is Los Angeles, Culver City, Hollywood. And people have lost their jobs in droves, lost their investments. Talent is available, believe me. And so it's a phony, phony excuse. But in putting this all together, I feel there were tremendous failures on all sides. Would you agree to that? Mr. Khuzami. I think there's a lot of blame to go around. Ms. Watson. Yes. My colleague, Ms. Speier, said it was just downright lies that were given and possibly it was done so that government could support BofA and give them more support in the merger. So I'm just really thoroughly, thoroughly disappointed that the people that were in place, particularly at the SEC, looked the other way. Thank you. I yield back. Chairman Towns. The gentlewoman's time has expired. I now yield 5 minutes to the gentleman from Missouri, Congressman Clay. Mr. Clay. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Khuzami, for being here. Just a couple of questions. At what point should action have been taken to curb some of the activities of the big banks' involvement in the security market? There had to be some indication to the SEC that some investment houses were stretched too thin without the proper reserves to cover their risk in this market. Did red flags or alarms ever go off? What did you know and when did you know it? Mr. Khuzami. Congressman, I didn't arrive at the SEC until March of this year, so I'm probably not the right person to ask that question of. Mr. Clay. How about the people that you work with now that have been there for years? Did red flags go off for them? Mr. Khuzami. Well, there were certainly systemic risks and a bubble that had occurred in the housing market and elsewhere that resulted in the collapse and the excessive leverage and risk-taking that we saw. What the Commission saw at various points along the way, it's difficult for me to answer that question. We didn't have regulatory authority over certain areas. It might be better if I have an opportunity to respond to you after today's hearing, so I can give you a more fulsome answer. Mr. Clay. I'd love to hear from your colleagues in writing just what alarms went off or whether the relationship was too cozy with the big banks, that they never wanted to cite them for risky practices. Let me ask you in particular, why did Bank of America get only a slap on the hand when it was cited in 2006 for improperly marketing auction rate securities? Why were they allowed to continue these practices of using false and misleading information in selling these instruments, in hindsight? Do you think the BofA was given too much leeway? Mr. Khuzami. Congressman, I would have to familiarize myself with that case. I'm aware generally of the auction rate securities matter, but as I sit here, not with the particulars of whatever action may have been brought in 2006. I'd be happy to respond. Mr. Clay. Would you respond to us and to the committee in writing on that issue also? Mr. Khuzami. Certainly. Mr. Clay. Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions. I yield back. Chairman Towns. Thank you very much. Before we close out, let me just say, Mr. Khuzami, I'm troubled by the question the gentleman from Maryland raised, Mr. Cummings. It seems to me that individual executives, the ones who sign off on the proxy filings, should be the ones that are responsible. So, therefore, why wouldn't they be the ones that you go after, you know, fine them from the personal standpoint? Like he said, taking our money and then paying the fine. I'm not sure we get to where we need to go with that. The other thing, the general feeling, in terms of the community at large, they feel that the reason the judge sent it back to you is that you were not aggressive enough, that you did not pursue it in the fashion that he felt it should have been. And, of course, that's the general feeling among people, as they say, ``in the street,'' as to what's going on. I don't know whether that's the case or not, but I do believe that you really need to look at that because when I listen to the fact that they are paying with our money, that doesn't encourage people to do what's right. Mr. Khuzami. A couple of responses: First, with respect to the payment of the fine, obviously, any entity that receives TARP funding or other money still has to pay that full amount back, with interest. So whether or not a fine was paid with government money, which can tend to be fungible in an institution, but ultimately they had pay back all the money they got from the government with interest. I would just make that point. Second of all, you're right, the judge expressed concern about not charging individuals. We have shown a very aggressive posture of charging individuals. If you look historically at our cases, the overwhelming number of cases result in charges against individuals and not corporations alone. I just mentioned some earlier today. But the particular issue in the proxy area is that the proxy laws impose the obligation on the entity whose proxy is being solicited or on whose behalf it's being solicited, and those are the corporations. To charge individuals, you need a higher level of proof. You need to show what is called scienter, or either knowledge or reckless conduct, meaning a significant and substantial deviation from normal standards of care. It is that difference in the legal standard that makes a difference in how we can proceed. There's a higher burden of proof with respect to the individuals; and our determination, based on the record we had, is that we did not have the basis to charge them as individuals. Now as we get into the discovery process, we may get additional information, and we will take that into account. But I don't want to leave the impression that we do not aggressively pursue individuals. We recognize the deterrent impacts of charging individuals as much as corporate penalties deter people. Nothing substitutes for charging individuals. And we do that across the board in many, many, many of our cases. Chairman Towns. Because the shareholders are really the ones who suffer in a case like this. Let me thank you very, very much for your testimony. Of course, we really appreciate the fact that you're here and that you shared with us. This is the end of many, many hearings that we have had on this. And of course we hope that we will now be able to move and to give the kind of confidence that people really need in order to turn the situation we now find ourselves in around. So I want to thank you again. This hearing is now adjourned. [The information referred to follows:] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] [Whereupon, at 12:37 p.m., the committee and subcommittee were adjourned.] [The prepared statement of Hon. Gerald E. Connolly follows:] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]