[House Hearing, 111 Congress] [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office] SEXUAL ASSAULT IN THE MILITARY PART IV: ARE WE MAKING PROGRESS? ======================================================================= HEARING before the SUBCOMMITTEE ON NATIONAL SECURITY AND FOREIGN AFFAIRS of the COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ONE HUNDRED ELEVENTH CONGRESS SECOND SESSION __________ FEBRUARY 24, 2010 __________ Serial No. 111-73 __________ Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.gpoaccess.gov/congress/ index.html http://www.house.gov/reform U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 58-134 PDF WASHINGTON : 2010 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: toll free (866) 512-1800; DC area (202) 512-1800 Fax: (202) 512-2104 Mail: Stop IDCC, Washington, DC 20402-0001 COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM EDOLPHUS TOWNS, New York, Chairman PAUL E. KANJORSKI, Pennsylvania DARRELL E. ISSA, California CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York DAN BURTON, Indiana ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland JOHN L. MICA, Florida DENNIS J. KUCINICH, Ohio MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana JOHN F. TIERNEY, Massachusetts JOHN J. DUNCAN, Jr., Tennessee WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri MICHAEL R. TURNER, Ohio DIANE E. WATSON, California LYNN A. WESTMORELAND, Georgia STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts PATRICK T. McHENRY, North Carolina JIM COOPER, Tennessee BRIAN P. BILBRAY, California GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia JIM JORDAN, Ohio MIKE QUIGLEY, Illinois JEFF FLAKE, Arizona MARCY KAPTUR, Ohio JEFF FORTENBERRY, Nebraska ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of JASON CHAFFETZ, Utah Columbia AARON SCHOCK, Illinois PATRICK J. KENNEDY, Rhode Island BLAINE LEUTKEMEYER, Missouri DANNY K. DAVIS, Illinois ANH ``JOSPEH'' CAO, Louisiana CHRIS VAN HOLLEN, Maryland HENRY CUELLAR, Texas PAUL W. HODES, New Hampshire CHRISTOPHER S. MURPHY, Connecticut PETER WELCH, Vermont BILL FOSTER, Illinois JACKIE SPEIER, California STEVE DRIEHAUS, Ohio JUDY CHU, California Ron Stroman, Staff Director Michael McCarthy, Deputy Staff Director Carla Hultberg, Chief Clerk Larry Brady, Minority Staff Director Subcommittee on National Security and Foreign Affairs JOHN F. TIERNEY, Massachusetts, Chairman CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York JEFF FLAKE, Arizona PATRICK J. KENNEDY, Rhode Island DAN BURTON, Indiana CHRIS VAN HOLLEN, Maryland JOHN L. MICA, Florida PAUL W. HODES, New Hampshire JOHN J. DUNCAN, Jr., Tennessee CHRISTOPHER S. MURPHY, Connecticut MICHAEL R. TURNER, Ohio PETER WELCH, Vermont LYNN A. WESTMORELAND, Georgia BILL FOSTER, Illinois PATRICK T. McHENRY, North Carolina STEVE DRIEHAUS, Ohio JIM JORDAN, Ohio STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts JEFF FORTENBERRY, Nebraska HENRY CUELLAR, Texas BLAINE LUETKEMEYER, Missouri MIKE QUIGLEY, Illinois Andrew Wright, Staff Director C O N T E N T S ---------- Page Hearing held on February 24, 2010................................ 1 Statement of: Farrell, Brenda S., Director, Defense Capacilibites and Management, Government Accountability Office, accompanied by Randolph Hite, Director, Information Technology and Architecture Systems, Government Accountability Office; Louis Iasiello, Co-Chairman, Defense Task Force on Sexual Assault in the Military Servcies, accompanyied by Brigadier General Sharon K.G. Dunbar, USAF, member, Defense Task Force on Sexual Assault in the Military Services; Kaye Whitley, Director, Sexual Assault Prevention and Response Office, Office of the Secretary of Defense; and Gail McGinn, Deputy Under Secretary--Plans, Department of Defense.................................................... 5 Farrell, Brenda S........................................ 5 Iasiello, Louis, and Sharon K.G. Dunbar.................. 20 McGinn, Gail............................................. 41 Whitley, Kaye............................................ 31 Wilberding, Merle F., attorney, Coolidge Wall................ 79 Letters, statements, etc., submitted for the record by: Farrell, Brenda S., Director, Defense Capacilibites and Management, Government Accountability Office, prepared statement of............................................... 8 Iasiello, Louis, Co-Chairman, Defense Task Force on Sexual Assault in the Military Servcies, and Brigadier General Sharon K.G. Dunbar, USAF, member, Defense Task Force on Sexual Assault in the Military Services, prepared statement of......................................................... 23 McGinn, Gail, Deputy Under Secretary--Plans, Department of Defense, prepared statement of............................. 43 Turner, Hon. Michael R., a Representative in Congress from the State of Ohio: Op-ed piece dated August 4, 2008......................... 91 Prepared statement of.................................... 64 Whitley, Kaye, Director, Sexual Assault Prevention and Response Office, Office of the Secretary of Defense, prepared statement of...................................... 33 Wilberding, Merle F., attorney, Coolidge Wall, prepared statement of............................................... 82 SEXUAL ASSAULT IN THE MILITARY PART IV: ARE WE MAKING PROGRESS? ---------- WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 24, 2010 House of Representatives, Subcommittee on National Security and Foreign Affairs, Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, Washington, DC. The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 3 p.m., in room 2247, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. John F. Tierney (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding. Present: Representatives Tierney, Flake, Turner, and Luetkemeyer. Also present: Representatives Harman and Speier. Staff present: Andy Wright, staff director; Elliot Gillerman, clerk; Talia Dubovi, counsel; Steven Gale, fellow; Aaron Blacksberg and Bronwen De Sena, interns; Tom Alexander, minority senior counsel; Christopher Bright, minority professional staff member. Mr. Tierney. Good afternoon, everybody. I want to thank you all for being here. A quorum is present, so the Subcommittee on National Security and Foreign Affairs' hearing entitled, ``Sexual Assault in the Military Part IV: Are We Making Progress,'' will come to order. I ask unanimous consent that only the chairman, the ranking member and Mr. Turner of the subcommittee be allowed to make opening statements. Without objection, that is so ordered. Also, I ask unanimous consent that various Members, Representatives Harmon, Slaughter, Davis, Chu and Speier, should they be able on their schedules to come and participate, they be allowed to participate, but in accordance with committee rules, they will only be allowed to question the witnesses after all official members of the subcommittee have had their turn. Without objection, so ordered. I ask unanimous consent that the hearing record be kept open for 5 business days, so that all members of the subcommittee and invited participants be allowed to submit a written statement for the record. Without objection, so ordered. And I also ask unanimous consent that Ms. Slaughter be allowed to submit for the record that statement now, where we have it on record. Without objection, so ordered. So with that business out of the way, again, I welcome everybody to the subcommittee. As you know, it provides continued oversight of the Department of Defense's response to sexual assault in the military. I think it is an important topic and I regret if I sound like I am rushing through this, it is only because I understand we are going to have votes in a few minutes, a 15-minute vote and two 5-minute votes, which may take about a half hour out of us. So we will get as far along as we can, then we will break for a half hour, with our apologies. We will come back as soon as we can and then proceed. The reason we have everybody on one panel is that we tried to keep it at two panels, not three to get done this afternoon, because the main committee went over with Mr. Toyoda and company. So we will try to be considerate of the fact that you all have schedules that are busy as well. We want to take advantage of your time here. It is clear that in any context, sexual assault destroys lives. But sexual assault in the military has additional facets that make it particularly of concern to this subcommittee. First, it is the unquestioned duty of this body and the U.S. Government as a whole to protect our military service members. And as I have said many times, the last thing that our men and women in uniform should fear when they put their lives on the line to defend the country is being attacked by one of their own. Second, sexual assaults in the military threaten military readiness in an acute way. When bonds of trust are broken, when unit cohesion is threatened, when our soldiers are forced to cope with the heavy emotional and psychological burden of a sexual attack, our armed forces are weakened. It is not only individual service members who are hurt by these crimes, but our military as a whole. This is our fourth hearing on this subject over the last 2 years. We don't really want to make this a career, but we do think it is an important area and that there is work to be done, and that there was some lag between statutory work that was done in the completion of setting up some of the entities that were going to do oversight. The focus on oversight has been on the Department of Defense's Sexual Assault Response Prevention Office [SAPRO]. It was created to be the single point of accountability and oversight for sexual assault policy within the Department. So we have been carefully monitoring its progress, or in the beginning, the lack thereof. But I am happy to say that it is moving now. In our first hearing in July 2008, we heard from two victims of sexual assault. Ms. Ingrid Torres, a manager for the American Red Cross who was raped while working in Kunsan Air Base in South Korea told us that the process of investigating and prosecuting the crime was just as traumatizing as the crime itself. Ms. Mary Lauterbach, whose daughter, Lance Corporal Maria Lauterbach, was murdered at Camp Lejeune after reporting a rape, testified about the warning signs indicating Maria needed protection after reporting the crime that had been missed by the Marines, and how her daughter regretted reporting the rape. I note that today we will be hearing testimony from Ms. Lauterbach's attorney, who is going to provide us with further insight into the experience he has had with working with the military in the aftermath of the Lance Corporal's death. The traumatic experiences of victims and their first-hand experiences with the military's sexual assault response programs provide invaluable insight and oversight into the challenges facing SAPRO, and they highlight the areas that the office needs to better address. During our earlier hearings, we also heard from the Government Accountability Office on its findings and recommendations for SAPRO to improve the training, response, accountability and oversight of the programs. GAO reported that despite some DOD progress on sexual assault response, significant problems remain that could discourage or prevent some service members from using the program when needed. Today we welcome GAO back to give us the details of their newest report that is being released today. It follows up on the original recommendations. Today we will also hear from a distinguished panel of other experts who will answer the fundamental question of this hearing: are we making the progress necessary to effectively address the problem of sexual assault in the military? Along with the GAO, we welcome representatives of the Defense Task Force on Sexual Assault in the Military Services. This congressionally mandated Task Force just completed a 16- month review of all matters related to sexual assault in the military. The Task Force report contains extensive recommendations for the Secretary of Defense, the Service Secretaries, SAPRO, Congress and others. Representatives of the Department of Defense will be on hand to report on related efforts over the last several years, as well as plans for continued efforts to eliminate sexual assaults from our military. Our society must assure that we do a better job of preventing these terrible crimes, providing care for victims and assuring that perpetrators are brought to justice. The military context, where we consciously create a separate society designed to ensure our national defense only magnifies our obligation to prevent sexual assault. We hope to hear today that the Department of Defense has made significant progress in correcting the problems that we have heard about the last 2 years. It should be crystal clear to the Department by now that Congress is conducting oversight and watching this. We are going to continue to monitor the progress that is being made, although I hope, as I said, not to make this a career. We are hoping at that point we will be able to turn this over with the guidance of all the entities that are set up for this, be able to continue on, have the proper oversight, and maybe just by reports back in we may obviate the need for any more hearings on this. We all share responsibility to our men and women in uniform to do everything that is necessary to protect them from these crimes. So we continue that work today, we will continue it as necessary for the future. Again, I want to thank all of you for being here to offer us assistance on that. At this point in time, I would defer to Mr. Flake for his opening comments. Mr. Flake. I thank the chairman. Because of votes, I won't take long. I will submit this statement for the record, but just welcome you all here. I joined the subcommittee after the first series of hearings were held, so this is my first exposure to it. I look forward to learning from all of you on both panels. I thank the chairman. Mr. Tierney. I don't see Mr. Turner here just yet, so we will wait for his statement when he arrives. This is a longstanding practice of this committee, to swear in witnesses, so I ask that all of the people who will be testifying to stand please and raise your hands. [Witnesses sworn.] Mr. Tierney. Thank you very much. Let the record please reflect that all of the witnesses answered in the affirmative. I will just identify the members of the panel before we get started, so we will get that done, at least, before the interruption here. Ms. Brenda Farrell is the Director of Defense Capabilities and Management in the Government Accountability Office. In that capacity, she is responsible for military and civilian personnel issues, including related medical readiness issues. She previously served as an Acting Director for the GAO's Strategic Issues team and holds a B.A. from the University of Louisville and an M.S. from the Industrial College of the Armed Forces. Mr. Randolph Hite is the Director of Information Technology Architecture and Systems Issues in the Government Accountability Office. In that capacity, he is responsible for auditing GAO's IT work at the Departments of Defense, State, Homeland Security and Justice. Mr. Hite has also examined the work that the Department of Defense has done on the congressionally mandated Defense Sexual Assault database. He holds a B.B.A. from James Madison University. My understanding is that Ms. Farrell will do the testimony for both, but both are available for questioning on that. Dr. Louis Iasiello currently serves as co-chairman of the Defense Task Force on Sexual Assault in the Military Services. He is a retired Rear Admiral in the U.S. Navy, having served for 25 years in a number of distinguished positions. From 2003 until his retirement in 2006, Dr. Iasiello served as the Chief of Naval Chaplains. He holds a Ph.D. from Salve Regina University. Brigadier General Sharon Dunbar serves in the U.S. Air Force and also is a member of the Defense Task Force on Sexual Assault in the Military Services. She currently serves as the Director of Force Management Policy, and is the Deputy Chief of Staff of Manpower, Personnel and Services at the U.S. Air Force headquarters. General Dunbar previously served as a member of the Defense Task Force on Sexual Harassment and Violence at the Military Service Academies. She holds a B.S. from the U.S. Air Force Academy. My understanding is that you will be splitting your testimony half and half, is that correct? Admiral Iasiello. Right. Mr. Tierney. Dr. Kaye Whitley currently serves as the Director of Sexual Assault Prevention and Response Office [SAPRO]. In that capacity, she develops policy and programs to improve sexual assault prevention efforts, enhance victim support and increase offender accountability. Dr. Whitley previously served as the Senior Director of Communication in DOD's Defense Prisoner of War and Missing Personnel Office. She holds a Ph.D. from the George Washington University and, Doctor, this is a return visit for you. Thank you for joining us. Ms. Gail McGinn is the Deputy Under Secretary of Defense for Plans, a position that she has held since 2002. In that capacity, she is responsible for developing integrated evaluation processes to measure the success of personnel programs. Ms. McGinn previously served as the Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Force Management Policy and as the Principal Director for Personnel Support, Families and Education. Ms. McGinn holds a B.A. from William Smith College, and a Master's in Education from Boston University. We again thank all of you for joining us here this morning. Having sworn in everybody, we will start our testimony and go as far as we can. Usually, when the sounds goes off, as most of you know, we still have about 15 minutes before we have to vote. So we will let it go a little bit over on that and then break. Ms. Farrell, if you would be kind enough? STATEMENTS OF BRENDA S. FARRELL, DIRECTOR, DEFENSE CAPACILIBITES AND MANAGEMENT, GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE, ACCOMPANIED BY RANDOLPH HITE, DIRECTOR, INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY AND ARCHITECTURE SYSTEMS, GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE; LOUIS IASIELLO, CO-CHAIRMAN, DEFENSE TASK FORCE ON SEXUAL ASSAULT IN THE MILITARY SERVCIES, ACCOMPANIED BY BRIGADIER GENERAL SHARON K.G. DUNBAR, USAF, MEMBER, DEFENSE TASK FORCE ON SEXUAL ASSAULT IN THE MILITARY SERVICES; KAYE WHITLEY, DIRECTOR, SEXUAL ASSAULT PREVENTION AND RESPONSE OFFICE, OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE; AND GAIL MCGINN, DEPUTY UNDER SECRETARY--PLANS, DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE STATEMENT OF BRENDA S. FARRELL Ms. Farrell. Mr. Chairman, members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity for Mr. Hite and me to be here today to discuss our work to evaluate DOD and the Coast Guard's oversight and implementation of their respective sexual assault prevention and response programs. Our written statement summarizes the findings of a report that we are issuing concurrently with today's hearing. It builds upon our previous work related to sexual assault in the military services. This is the third time you have asked GAO to testify on this important subject. And your ongoing attention to this subject has significantly contributed to the broader congressional efforts to raise the awareness of and accountability for sexual assault in the military services. Our main message today is that DOD and the Coast guard have taken a number of positive steps to increase program awareness and to improve their prevention and response to occurrences of sexual assault. But additional actions are needed to strengthen the programs. Sexual assault is a crime with far-reaching negative impacts on the military services, in that it undermines core values, degrades mission readiness and esprit de corps, subverts strategic goodwill and raises financial costs. Since we reported on the implications in 2008, DOD reported nearly 3,000 alleged sexual assault cases. It remains impossible to accurately analyze trends or draw conclusions from this data, because DOD and the Coast Guard have not yet standardized their reporting requirements. Our written statement is divided into three parts. The first addresses the steps that DOD has taken to implement our August 2008 recommendations regarding the oversight and implementation of its programs. To its credit, DOD has implemented four of the nine recommendations in that report. For example, DOD evaluated Department program guidance for joint and deployed environments. And it evaluated factors that may hinder access to health care following a sexual assault incident. But DOD's actions to address the other five recommendations reflect less progress. For example, a key recommendation was that DOD develop an oversight framework, which they have. However, we found that the draft framework lacks key elements needed for effective strategic planning and successful implementation, such as criteria for measuring progress to facilitate program evaluation and identify areas that may need improvement. The second part of our statement addresses the steps DOD has taken and still needs to take to establish a centralized sexual assault incident database. DOD did not meet the legislative requirement to establish the database by last month. It is unclear when the database will be established, because DOD does not yet have a reliable schedule to guide its efforts. Also, system acquisition best practices associated with successfully acquiring and deploying information technology systems, such as economically justifying the proposed system solution, and effectively developing and managing requirements, have largely not been performed. Third, the last part of our statement addresses the steps the Coast Guard has taken to implement our August 2008 recommendations for further developing its sexual assault prevention and response program. The Coast Guard has partially implemented one of two GAO recommendations. It has not implemented the other. The Coast Guard began assessing its program staff's workload in June 2009, which represents progress for staffing key installation level positions. But it has not addressed our recommendations to develop an oversight framework. In summary, Mr. Chairman, while the progress DOD and the Coast Guard have made is noteworthy, their efforts have not fully established sound management frameworks that include a long-term perspective and clear lines of accountability, all of which are needed to withstand the administrative, fiscal and political pressures that confront Federal programs on a daily basis. Further, successful program implementation will require personal involvement of top leadership in order to maintain the long-term focus on and accountability for program objectives. Without such support, DOD and the Coast Guard programs will not be able to maximize the benefit of their respective initiatives, and they may not be able to effect the change in military culture that is needed to help ensure that their programs are institutionalized. Mr. Chairman, that concludes our opening. Mr. Hite and I will be happy to take questions when you are read. [The prepared statement of Ms. Farrell follows:] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Mr. Tierney. Again, thank you very much. We couldn't have done the work that was done without GAO's good assistance and help on this, and we appreciate it. Doctor, we are calling you, I assume, because that trumps Admiral? Dr. Iasiello, please. STATEMENT OF LOUIS IASIELLO AND SHARON DUNBAR Admiral Iasiello. Chairman Tierney, Ranking Member Flake, distinguished members of the subcommittee, thank you for this opportunity to present the work of the Defense Task Force on Sexual Assault in Military Services. As co-chairs, we are honored to be here to discuss the recommendations and findings of the Task Force and the staff. Given the fact that our formal statements have been forwarded to you, we will keep these opening comments short and brief. As regards our authority, Congress directed the Task Force in its 2005 Defense Authorization Act, and it was established by the Secretary of Defense in August 2008. The Task Force employed an extensive methodology, employing both quantitative and qualitative measures. Over a period of 15 months, we visited 60 installations, CONUS, OCONUS and in the AOR, interviewing 3,500 individuals, 61 victims, senior military and civilian Department of Defense leadership, sexual assault response coordinators and their supervisors, victim advocates, first responders, medical personnel, legal personnel, pastoral care providers, the chaplains, military police, and the Department of Defense's criminal investigative services. We reviewed hundreds of their criminal investigative reports, as well as all prior reports on sexual assault leading up to our work. At the completion of our work, we submitted the report to the Secretary of Defense on the 1st of December 2009. The Task Force focused its work in three distinct yet interrelated areas, that of victim response, prevention and training, and accountability and strategic oversight. First off, the report recognizes the progress made by the Department of Defense in victim response, since it inaugurated its Sexual Assault Prevention and Response Program in 2005. We believe that the recommendations contained in the Task Force report will significantly improve programs in this critical area. Next in the area of strategic direction, the Task Force is recommending that the Deputy Secretary of Defense take responsibility for SAPRO for a period of at least 1 year, and until the Secretary of Defense apprises Congress that the SAPR office is meeting its established goals. We recommend that the SAPR program be given a more permanent complexion in the Department of Defense. The Department of Defense needs to communicate the message that the SAPR program is here to stay, and illustrate that resolve through designated funding for SAPR funding in its DOD budget process. The Task Force recommends that the organizational design, personnel and mission of the DOD SAPR office be revised to strategically lead the Department of Defense in this critical area. We recommend the establishment of a uniform SAPR terminology and core structure to be implemented across service lines. The Task Force recommends the professionalization of victim advocates to ensure for qualified personnel with national certification. And we recommend that sexual assault and response coordinators are Department of Defense civilians and/or uniform personnel in the Department of Defense. The Task Force recommends the development of program standards and subsequent metrics which will enable the Department of Defense to more accurately measure the heath of the SAPR programs. And finally, in this area of strategic direction, the Task Force is strongly recommending funding for SAPR research in collaboration with civilian experts throughout our great country, such as those found in the world of academia and our advocacy groups which work so hard in this area, and other Federal agencies. Now I would like to turn the mic over to General Dunbar. General Dunbar. Mr. Chairman and other distinguished members of the subcommittee, as we have submitted our statement for record, I will continue to provide brief remarks. Over the course of our 15 months, there were several trends that emerged. The first is that prevention of sexual assault needs to be the No. 1 priority. Second, response to victims has demonstrably improved, but more improvements need to be made in that area. There needs to be much greater consistency among the services, given deployed operations, joint basing and other joint operations, as well as greater consistency among the active component and the Reserve and Guard components. Given the nature of time that we had to conduct our review, we were not able to conduct extensive analysis of what is existing in the Guard and Reserve components at the unit level or the State level. So we recommend that the Secretary of Defense undertake additional review in that area. Then as the GAO had indicated, on the data aspect, we really do believe that there needs to be greater consistency, reliability of the data in order for us to be able to do trend analysis and be able to continue to improve the program. Finally, we believe that the SAPRO office, while it was initially established with response to victims in mind, needs to be extensively expanded in order to address more effectively prevention as well as the data accountability issues. On the prevention and training area, as I mentioned, we believe that prevention is the No. 1 priority, because that is absolutely key in order to be able to prevent sexual assault from occurring in the first place. We are advocating that there needs to be a much greater comprehensive strategy. I think the DOD has done a great job in terms of establishing bystander intervention training. But we would state that the training, and essentially the strategy, needs to be much more than bystander intervention, to include community awareness, to include the partnership, building partnership capacity with our communities, with academia and addressing the issue. In the training area, we are advocating much more than the rote training that takes place. We would propose that there needs to be training along a continuum that addresses not just the first responders, but those in leadership, from the commanders as well as the senior enlisted and our civilians, that training occur over the course of an individual's career. Also, the training needs to be geared toward just generating greater awareness and appreciation for the incidence level of sexual assault, debunking many of the myths that continue to prevail, not just within the military but within society as well, addressing risk factors, victim and perpetrator factors, as well as risk mitigation strategies. We would also advocate specialized and recurring training for those that are extensively involved in providing the response to our victims. And then in the victim response area, a couple of key areas that I would address would be that we need to try to provide greater care for the victims. Many of them, as you had indicated, Mr. Chairman, have expressed dismay over the treatment that they receive. I think that much can be done in terms of providing greater response to them, from professionalizing the victim advocates that we have to providing them with legal assistance up front, so they know they can have a conversation that will provide them with confidentiality, to also being able to confide in a peer or trusted agent as opposed to feeling that their third party then will end up being subpoenaed in order to testify against them. Then likewise, we would advocate that the individuals who, if they decide that they want to opt out of an investigation, that the victims be allowed to do so. And last, on the accountability, which GAO has addressed fairly substantially so I won't get into that, we do believe that there needs to be much greater accountability on the data and that we couldn't emphasize enough the importance of having the data system up and running. From the best practices, just to highlight what we believe is important, the common theme there is engaged leadership, increased awareness and the candid discussion that needs to take place at all levels within the DOD. Much of that is taking from with the senior leadership down to the unit level. But again, much more needs to be done. With that, sir, I conclude. Thank you. [The prepared statement of Admiral Iasiello and General Dunbar follows:] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Mr. Tierney. Thank you. I want to thank you both for your abbreviated testimony. Dr. Whitley. STATEMENT OF KAYE WHITLEY Dr. Whitley. Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Flake and members of the subcommittee, thank you so much for inviting me to discuss the progress that the Department of Defense has made in preventing and responding to sexual assault. Since we provided written testimony, I will keep my remarks brief. The reason for our commitment to this issue is clear. Sexual assault levies a tremendous human toll, disrupts lives and destroys the human spirit. While we talk about these Department-wide efforts, we should always keep in mind that behind each of these numbers, there is an individual whose life is changed forever. Our policies and programs continue to improve. I would like to recognize the collaborative efforts of my DOD colleagues. For example, the strategic plan and oversight framework was the product of hundreds of hours of collaboration. The activities identified in these documents will greatly expand my office's efforts, and to that end, we have already begun to restructure the SAPRO office, and we will grow from 7 to 21 employees. We have received more than 100 recommendations from the GAO, the DTFSAMS and our Inspector General. We were already working on many of these recommendations. However, others are new and they will strengthen and expand our program. We are working with nationally known experts in the civilian communities and premier civilian organizations and State coalitions to improve our prevention and response efforts. Further, we are members of an interagency group led by the White House Office on Women and Girls to explore ways that all Federal agencies can work together to prevent interpersonal violence in society, as well as in the military. I would like to thank my leadership, especially Ms. McGinn, and our staffs for their dedication. We also want to express our appreciation to all of the SAPR staffs around the world, not just in the Pentagon, who work every day on this program. It is because of their efforts that we have implemented many of the things in our new program. We believe that we have made great strides in training. We have to train more than 2 million service members, and then we have to train a huge cadre of professionals to respond to sexual assault, even sexual assault response coordinators, victim advocates, chaplains, commanders, trial counsel, investigators. So training all of those responders around the world is a big task. Your oversight is key to our progress, and also working with the GAO and the members and staff of the DTFSAMS has been a pleasure. Throughout this process, we have all worked very closely together, because we all want to make the military a better place for those who serve to keep us safe. Our task is daunting, and we recruit from a society where sexual assault is one of the most under-reported crimes. And we do understand that there is more to do, and we will welcome your continued attention and oversight. Thank you for your support. [The prepared statement of Dr. Whitley follows:] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Mr. Tierney. Thank you, Doctor. Ms. McGinn. STATEMENT OF GAIL MCGINN Ms. McGinn. Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Flake, other members of the subcommittee, I too thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today to discuss the Department's progress in addressing the crime of sexual assault. I also submitted a long testimony for the record, so this will be very brief. But the answer, I think, to the question posed by this hearing, are we making progress, is yes. We are making progress, but we are certainly not at the finish line. We won't be at the finish line until we have eliminated sexual assault in the armed forces. In 2008, we had over 2,900 reported assaults. And we know from survey results that this is only a portion of those that reportedly occurred. Only about 20 percent of service members who experience unwanted sexual contact report the matter to a military authority. So indeed, we need a strong prevention strategy, an effective training strategy and potent measures to ensure that we are heading in the right direction. I understand that some of this is uncharted territory. Thus, we want to work with the right experts and in concert with the military departments to advance our knowledge as we go forward. I was pleased to see that the Defense Task Force on Sexual Assault in the Military Services emphasized service culture. For indeed, we need a culture that extends the concept of watching out for your buddy in danger on the battlefield to watching out for your buddy in danger of sexual assault. This was the theme of our last prevention strategy, and one that we need to constantly emphasize. But we have made progress. In 2005, when we established the Sexual Assault Prevention and Response Office, we believed we needed a small policy office to formalize instructions we had issued, identify new policy concerns and address them, and evaluate implementation, kind of a standard policy model for us. Over the ensuing years, in conversations with the Congress, this subcommittee, the GAO and the Task Force, it became clear that the Office needed to expand its mission and thus become more robust. Dr. Whitley, who you just heard from, has done a great job managing that expansion with advancements coming in investigator and trial counsel training, the development of our congressionally directed database, initiation of the first Department-wide prevention effort, and development of a strategic plan and oversight framework. Indeed, we welcome the reports of the Task Force and the GAO as we continue to refine our approach and determine further steps. Today, leadership support of our efforts has never been stronger. It begins with the Secretary of Defense and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs and continues with the dedicated efforts of our service secretaries and senior military leadership. The military departments are making every effort to ensure that every service member knows that sexual assault is unacceptable and to assure that there is help for victims as they need it. Just last week, we welcomed our new Under Secretary for Personnel and Readiness, Dr. Clifford Stanley, to the Department. He has indicated that he is also determined to advance our efforts in this regard. So in closing, let me thank the subcommittee for your support of this very important program. I am happy to answer any questions you may have. [The prepared statement of Ms. McGinn follows:] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Mr. Tierney. Thank you very much. Thank all of you for helping us frame the issue here. We are going to take about a 20 minute break for votes and be back at that point in time. Thank you. [Recess.] Mr. Tierney. Thank you for your forbearance. Mr. Turner, you had wanted an opportunity to give a brief opening statement, and now might be a good time for that, if you would. Mr. Turner. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank you for your continued focus and effort here. I also want to thank Jane Harman for her career-long focus on this. We have had the good fortune to work with Jane on a number of issues. As some of you know, my initial interest in this came about by the unfortunate murder of Maria Lauterbach, who is from my community. That brought to light several issue as to how rapes are handled within the command and for the victim. So I have worked with a number of members on issues where we have tried to find ways to change both laws and to work with DOD on ways that we can enhance the protection to victims and also find ways to provide them additional support. This report is, I think, an excellent report for a basis to begin the process of looking at additional ways that we can support victims. I want to focus on one aspect, an item that I know is important to all of you, and that is the issue of culture. Almost in every sexual assault hearing that I go to, I read this provision of an answer that I got as a response to questions that I had submitted concerning Maria Lauterbach. General Kramlich of the U.S. Marine Corps was responding to a series of questions that I had posed with respect to the Maria Lauterbach case. And a number of statements were made through DOD and the Marines that I found troubling. One of those was they had indicated that they had no notice that Maria Lauterbach might be at risk, because there had been no violence that had been alleged in the allegations of what had occurred to her. So I wrote a question of, doesn't a rape accusation inherently contain an element of force or threat? The answer that I got back was that in May 2007, when Lauterbach formally made allegations of rape against Laurean, the command was only made aware of two reported sexual encounters, one sexual encounter characterized as consensual by Lauterbach and the other alleged to be rape. Lauterbach never alleged any violence of threat of violence in either sexual encounter. Now, the reason why I read that in every hearing, because when we have the issue of culture, I would hope that throughout DOD, no one would ever write again that any sexual assault could not have an allegation of violence or threat of violence. Because as we all know, it is inherent in the sexual assault itself. So with that, Mr. Chairman, I thank you for bringing the spotlight to this. I know that we all have a lot of work to do, and we appreciate the work that you are undertaking. [The prepared statement of Hon. Michael R. Turner follows:] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Mr. Tierney. Thank you. We will begin the questioning, if nobody has any objection to that. Dr. Whitley, back in August 2008, we had a report from the Government Accountability Office, which made nine recommendations to improve the Department's Sexual Assault Prevention and Response programs. Today's report from the GAO states that you have implemented only four of those recommendations, and two of those four were actually addressed by non-SAPRO Task Forces. So can you explain to us why some 18 months after the report came out, such a small percentage of those nine remaining objectives have been dealt with effectively? Dr. Whitley. We may have actually addressed more since then. I could probably answer the question better if we talked specific recommendations. I know one thing that was of particular interest to you, sir, was the oversight framework and the strategic plan. We have completed that. I did take it, per your suggestion, to Ms. Farrell and give her a briefing on it. They made suggestions. I went back and took their edits and their suggestions. That has been completed and we have already begun some implementation. We are still waiting for it to be signed on by the new Under Secretary. Mr. Tierney. Ms. Farrell, of the five that were unaddressed at all of your recommendations, can you prioritize those for us? Ms. Farrell. Certainly. I would like to focus on the oversight plan. We do appreciate the cooperation that we received from DOD by sharing the draft framework with us during our review, so that we could see it and analyze it and comment on it. They should be given credit for laying a foundation for their oversight framework, which is quite a challenge. But that oversight framework, strategic plan, whatever you want to call it, based on our body of work, looking at best practices of successful organizations that are results-oriented, there are identifiable key elements that you would want to see in the oversight framework, which we noted in the August 2008 report. At a minimum, you want clear goals, objectives, milestones and performance measures. Performance measures are very key for that road map. As I mentioned in the opening, performance measures are necessary to gauge where you are as you are headed toward your goal, and to measure and make a course change, if necessary. That is one of the key elements that is missing in that oversight framework, is the performance measurement. Another that we discussed with DOD back in November, before we sent the draft report over with the recommendations that we would like to see is once you have the performance measures, you need strategies of what you are going to do with the results once you get them in order to make those course corrections. Another element we would like to see is tying the program objectives with budget priorities. This is very key, because that will help DOD to support justification for any resources that they need, whether it is personnel or funding. Last, there were three documents that DOD provided to us during the review. And sometimes you will have one comprehensive strategic plan, sometimes there are multiple documents. That is fine. We do not take issue with how many documents they have that comprise their strategic framework. But with the three documents provided to us, it was difficult to tell how they complemented each other. Two of the documents had five objectives that did match up. But then the oversight framework that they discussed with us and provided to us that was responding to our recommendation had nine improvement initiatives that we could not correlate back. So it is still not clear to us what that oversight framework that they provided to us, where that fit with the other documents that comprised their strategic planning. Mr. Tierney. Dr. Whitley, is that helpful? Is that something you can work with Ms. Farrell and correct? Dr. Whitley. Absolutely. We did take the plan back, after my meeting with her, and we developed a user guide. We also have requirements in the Department to have a strategic plan. It would be confusing to someone looking at three documents. We have to align ours with the Personnel and Readiness plan and the Secretary's plan. We also had to go back and refit all of that. Then the oversight framework, we hung that, if you will, on our strategic plan and saw that as part of our oversight. We see our role as prevention, victim care and response. And then our role is system accountability. That is where we hung the framework. I think now we have made it more user friendly. We have also developed measures. One of the things that we talked about at the last hearing, our civilian and Federal partners all struggle with finding the best measures for sexual assault. Because as you know, you can't use reports, because it so under-reported. So we are looking at ways now to measure prevention and response. We are able to get at least four or five measures in the P&R strategic plan. We are going to measure awareness, we are going to measure victim satisfaction, and we are developing surveys. It is a challenge, and there are not many models out there. Mr. Tierney. It seems to me that you have a good working relationship with GAO, and I appreciate that. So I am trusting that you will be able to continue that and resolve those issues. I think they provide value added to you and are a resource for you. So I appreciate that you are working with them and being open about it. We will expect that those things will be resolved. Ms. McGinn, just before my time is up, how are you aligning the resources to this, the money, so people will know that we are serious about it and it is going to get funded appropriately? And two, the General made a good point: are you going to be able, at the Department of Defense, to undertake a review of the Guard and Reserve at the State and unit level? Ms. McGinn. We have just recently, I think it was last year, established program element codes. Into those program element codes the military services put their money that they have dedicated to this program, so that we have visibility over it, and we can see that it is in there and it is not being cut or it is growing or whatever. I think in fiscal year 2010, there is about $110 million so far that the service had identified. In addition to that, we have succeeded in getting additional funding for the Sexual Assault Prevention and Response Office, $20 million, to help with our outreach efforts, our oversight efforts with the development of the database and those kinds of things. So one, we are watching the money and two, we are actively engaging in the budget process to try to find more money where necessary for it. We absolutely believe we need to look harder at the Guard and Reserve. We are looking at ways that we might do that. We do have a yellow ribbon program, as you know, that works with the Guard and Reserve, and we are involving the Guard and Reserve in our various oversight committees. We agree with that recommendation. We will take action on that. Mr. Tierney. Mr. Flake. Mr. Flake. Thank you. Brigadier General Dunbar, you mentioned in your testimony that things were improving. I just wasn't quite clear as to if you are referring to fewer incidents of abuse, and how would that be measured, or that the plan being implemented, that is improving in speed. Can you qualify that statement? Maybe I heard it wrong, but you mentioned something like that. General Dunbar. In terms of improving, what I am referring to is that the program focus certainly within the services, the leadership attention that is being given to it from the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff to the service secretaries and service chiefs, down to in some locations, not universally all locations, unit commander involvement in addressing the issue. From the SAPRO standpoint, I think since 2005, the establishment of restrictive reporting, which I think a lot of commanders were very reluctant to embrace, now many people are seeing that as very good because more victims are coming forward, those victims who wouldn't have come forward had they not had that restrictive reporting option. So I think awareness is growing and appreciation for a lot of the mechanisms, thanks to Congress' oversight, and thanks to the continued emphasis. We are having folks come on board, people are accepting the fact that sexual assault does occur with the military services and it needs to be addressed. So from a program standpoint, response has increased, even in the prevention area, which we were initially finding lacking. The fact that the DOD SAPRO office is really working the bystander intervention, all the services are addressing that. That is positive progress. But at the same time, one of the concerns that we have is that bystander intervention is not the be all, end all in terms of a comprehensive prevention strategy, and that more needs to be done. So progress, but still more to be done. Mr. Flake. Can somebody tell me, over the past, say, 2 years, have the reported cases of sexual abuse gone up or down? Dr. Whitley. We have had approximately 3,000 reports each year. We will be releasing our fiscal year 2009 report on March 15th. We already know the numbers have gone up slightly. We want people to report. That is our goal. Mr. Flake. My next question is, certainly the recommendations include increased awareness and education, and with that comes reporting requirements. Recognizing that part of the improvement is getting more people to come forward, are there metrics then to gauge whether we are improving or not in terms of incidence of sexual abuse, independent of how many are reported? Dr. Whitley. We are developing a survey with the Defense Manpower Data Center to ask people on the survey if they have experienced unwanted sexual contact and if they have reported it. One statistic I do have since we have had restrictive reporting, starting in the middle of June 2005: we have had over 2,600 people use the restrictive option reporting. So that is data that tells me that is something that we should continue and that is a good option for us in reducing barriers to reporting. We are working on other ways to measure the prevalence of sexual assault. Even in society, statistics show us that only about 18 to 20 percent of victims report to an authority. So it is vastly underreported. So what we are doing in our program is we are trying to remove the barriers that keep people from coming forward and to try to build climates of confidence and to reduce stigma. We want to reduce stigma for any type of mental health that people are seeking. Mr. Flake. Thank you. Mr. Tierney. Mr. Turner, you are recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Turner. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. After you all testify, there will be a gentleman who is testifying whose name is Merle Wilberding, who is an attorney, who has worked with the Lauterbach family, and has worked with my office on some of the legislation that we have sponsored on issues such as military protective orders, ensuring that they don't expire, and also that local jurisdictions are notified. Because actually in Marla Lauterbach's case, the local jurisdiction did not know that a military protective order had been put in place. We changed that in legislation with the National Defense Authorization Act. In addition to representing them, I just want to give you one fact about his legal career. As an Army JAG captain, he was assigned the responsibility to represent the Government in the Lieutenant Calley appeal of his conviction in the infamous My Lai massacre. So he has a little bit of information on the inside, in addition to representing this family. In his testimony, one of the things he is going to highlight is the issue of the victim advocates. He is going to lay out the case of whether or not people feel that system is responsive. And then he has a recommendation that perhaps victim advocates need to establish a line of authority outside the base chain of command. I wondered if you all might comment on that, having looked at the issue through your Task Force. That is not something that you have recommended. But I would be interested to get your thoughts on that. General Dunbar, why don't we start with you? General Dunbar. Congressman Turner, one of the things that we did recommend was to provide some confidentiality with the victim advocates. Because in the statistics that we saw, approximately 78 percent of the attorneys who were prosecuting cases had indicated that they would, or in the defense, would subpoena victim advocate records. So when you know that you have victims who we tell to go to a victim advocate to seek the care and yet, at the same time, know that they are vulnerable to having whatever they disclose be used against them, that is not what we consider to be providing adequate victim support. We do think that you can establish a system that allows the victim advocates to have that confidentiality and still have them within the military structure as opposed to going outside of a military reporting machine. So in answer to your question, we did not explore specifically the proposal that you have outlined. But we recognize the importance of victim advocates and the care that they provide, and realize that we have a deficiency as it currently is set up. Mr. Turner. Do you have an opinion on that issue, on his recommendation? Dr. Whitley. Well, sir, as I said, I do believe that we can cure the issue without having to have the victim advocates report outside the chain of command. There are a variety of options I think that exist. Mr. Turner. Anyone else wish to comment on the issue of chain of command? Ms. McGinn. If I could? Mr. Turner. Yes. Ms. McGinn. I think, we want commanders to be involved, and to be proactive and to be advocates and to help solve these problems. I think there could be a little bit of danger taking this outside the chain of command, that you would create a space where the commander wouldn't know what was going on, would not be involved, and would set up almost a conflicting relationship. So I would just caution that I think we want commanders, as I said, to be involved in this process and to understand their responsibilities and to respond correctly. Mr. Turner. General. General Dunbar. If I could just add, I think the issue, especially in our review as we looked at restrictive reporting, we have found that the commanders, if they know that certain restrictions exist, they respect those restrictions. So whether it is within the chain of command, if a victim advocate were granted confidentiality, I think a commander would jeopardize his or her position by trying to pry information out of a victim advocate. So that is basically why I think we have options that we can work within. Admiral Iasiello. If I may weigh in on this, too, we found one of the issues, access to a commander, is critical for the health of the program. So with the Sexual Assault Response Coordinators, when they had that access with their commanders and were able to voice their concerns and bring issues before them, we felt that they were very successful in what they were trying to do. When they had two or three levels of bureaucracy that they were trying to deal with, their effectiveness as response coordinators was significantly diminished. That is why the use of contractors as Sexual Assault Response Coordinators was one of our recommendations. We think that access is critical. It is not only important to the program, but as many people have mentioned, the commander sets the tone. And the commander really needs to know what is going on in his or her command. Mr. Turner. With the chairman's indulgence, the reason why I find it an important recommendation is because in the military, the situation is so unique in that the military in effect has a custodial relationship with the victim, where they can't get up and leave. They are told where they are to be. You don't have the same freedom of movement that you would have if you were a victim in the private sector. And then to have what is ultimately up the chain of command, your boss, having the same people reporting to you that are supposed to be aiding you, the inherent conflicts of interest are just obvious as to how they could arise. So I do think it is something for us to have more discussion on. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Tierney. Thank you. Ms. Harman, we want to welcome you to the subcommittee, and thank you for your interest in this subject, and your leadership on it, and welcome you to give us 5 minutes of questioning, if you would. Ms. Harman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the fact that this subcommittee on a bipartisan basis has held four hearings on this subject. There is intense concern from Congress about what I would call an epidemic of assault and rape in the military, which I view as both a moral problem and a force protection problem. And at a time when the public looks at Congress and thinks we can't do anything together, I hope everyone was listening up. I think both sides of the aisle in this subcommittee are equally concerned. I know, Mike, that the Lauterbach family is very lucky to have you as their representative. You have been passionate about this issue, which is something we all need to be. On that point, only one of you, and that was Dr. Whitley, mentioned in personal terms the toll that rape and assault takes on people. Dr. Whitley said it changes a human being's life forever. And it may terminate some human beings' lives, as in the case of Maria Lauterbach. So I think we have to keep that in mind. It is not just a question of statistics and strategies and milestones and goals. This is a deeply personal issue. It is a violation of one's physical space and as I guess the only woman member sitting up here, I want to say how strongly I feel about this and how urgently we have to fix this. I guess my message and my questions today are focused on prevention. It is good to, you have all heard me say this in the past, it is good to be better at response and better at victim care. I applaud you for trying to do that. And it is good to coordinate the statistics and create more comfort for victims to come forward. All of that is important. But wouldn't it be better if we didn't have victims? Let's get a sense of the proportion of this. In August 2007, I went to the West Los Angeles VA, where there is a women's clinic. I was blown away to hear that 41 percent of the female veterans they see are victims of military sexual trauma, and 29 percent were raped. Now, this isn't a scientific survey, but I am sure those are accurate figures for 3 years ago in the West LA VA. And generalizing this to the country gets me to my little sound bite, which is, a woman is more likely to be raped in the military by a fellow soldier than killed by enemy fire. So my question to you is, shouldn't we be doing more about prevention? I welcome your response, each of you. And specifically, shouldn't we be doing more of what the Army is doing with its I Am Strong campaign, by hiring outside investigators and prosecutors to teach a team of 300, I understand, prosecutors in the Army to do a better job of investigating and prosecuting these rapes and assaults, so it sends a strong message to people that you cross a red line, either as a perpetrator or someone in the chain of command, and you pay a big penalty? Ms. Farrell. Ms. Farrell. Thank you. I would like to note regarding that first part, our report does note that not only does sexual assault have implications for the individual, but for the family, the friends, the colleagues, the whole community besides the unique impact, obviously, on the military, that we were discussing earlier. Regarding prevention, shouldn't that be important, I believe all three---- Ms. Harman. Shouldn't it be more important, more emphasized. Ms. Farrell. It should be, it is prevention, response, and resolution. So I think there has to be emphasis on all three. As you know, after SAPRO was established, the emphasis was really more on response, taking care of the victims was driving. It is just, I think in the last year, and of course, DOD can speak to this more, where they have gotten more of a handle on the prevention. And that is what we are looking for. Again, in the strategy of what are the clear goals of what are you trying to accomplish. By having a very clear goal on prevention and how you are going to get there, maybe we will see this, actually, the numbers go down. Ms. Harman. Mr. Chairman, could others just answer my question? I know my time is expiring. Mr. Tierney. Sure. Dr. Whitley. Thank you always for the support that you have given this program, Ms. Harman. One of the things, I know the Army came out with their I Am Strong campaign, and the Department has a DOD-wide strategy. We work very closely with the Centers for Disease Control and use their spectrum of prevention, which tells us you have to work the strategy at every level, from the individual all the way up to policies and laws. And we also work with the National Sexual Violence Resource Center. Each of the services, in fact, the Navy and the Air Force each held summits just a few months ago. They brought in their highest levels of leadership. I can tell you, in talking with some of the generals that were there, and the leaders, they are all on board. I think we have a very strong prevention campaign and strategy in all of the services now. Ms. Harman. If I could add, I had noted that there needs to be a greater emphasis on prevention. Having the strategy is great, the bystander intervention is one facet of it. But it also includes the community awareness and physical safety. For instance, when we were over in the AOR, how you actually set up a location, where you put the female latrine, where you site the female tents, sometimes we have the cultural issues of this is the way it has always been done before. Likewise, even when you are going through the dormitory or the barracks areas, basic security measures. In some of the newer facilities, you find that you have the video cameras, surveillance cameras that are set up. A lot of it is driven by culture. The more awareness that we have in addressing the issues, the greater you can provide prevention at basic levels. The key to all this is leadership involvement. The senior leadership of the services, no doubt, are all engaged, as I mentioned, the chairman is engaged. That needs to populate down to unit commanders, who have to understand that they have to be out front addressing this issue on a regular basis, and have candid discussions of the fact that sexual assault is not tolerated. And even those things continue on to include sexual harassment, that those behaviors are not going to be accepted within service in the Armed Forces. Ms. McGinn. Could I just add one thing about culture, because the military culture is created. And we take young people off the streets of America and we send them to basic training and we turn them into soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines. While it is a more long-term solution, if we look to what we already know in terms of how to create soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines, couldn't we also look to how we change attitudes and how we inculcate this as a cultural issue? I would just to note, I was reviewing service programs in preparation for this. I was struck by the fact that the Army, for their new recruits, the new recruits receive sexual assault training during their reception, during the first week of basic training, just prior to their first overnight pass and upon advanced individual training entrance. So that kind of emphasis I think at the basic training level would go a long way for us. Ms. Harman. Thank you. Admiral Iasiello. If I may, you have highlighted what was for us as a Task Force one of the most critical recommendations, that we have a comprehensive prevention strategy, cross-service, that is given a strategic leadership by the SAPRO office, which has the measurements in there to know whether it is working or not, to give us the granularity to be able to identify trends, to see whether or not it is in fact doing what it is supposed to do. But one of the other recommendations which ties into it is the fact that we don't feel the DOD can do this alone. If we are going to develop a truly effective, comprehensive prevention strategy, we need to partner with our national allies in this effort, with academia, with the national alliances against rape and crimes against women. We need to partner with these experts throughout the country so that we can move forward with a comprehensive prevention strategy and results. Mr. Tierney. Thank you Ms. Harman. Thank all of you. I think I am going to give people an opportunity to just ask another question or two, if they have it, before we let you all go. When you talked about culture, Ms. McGinn, I was thinking, what we listened to at the last hearing was a connection, by one of the witnesses, the connection between the ban on women in ground combat and sexual assault. Specifically, that witness testified that the ban sends a signal from the top that women are second class soldiers and thus inferior to male soldiers. The inferiority perpetuates an antagonistic view of women that helps create a culture that is conducive to sexual assault. Do you want to reflect on that for us, whether you think that is true or not and what we might do about it if it is? Ms. McGinn. I haven't really given that any thought. I do know that, and I think it was in the last Task Force report on the academies, Dr. Iasiello can correct me, the Task Force noted that at the academies the percentage of women that you had made a difference in terms of the attitudes and the way that people were treated, that there needed to be kind of a critical mass of women there. I don't know that the ban necessarily creates an issue for us. I hadn't really thought that through. Mr. Tierney. We can provide that testimony for you, so you might be able to take a look at it and let us know what you think about it at some other time. Ms. McGinn. OK, that would be fine. Mr. Tierney. I don't want to hit you unfairly, but it struck me when you were saying that, it tied in on that. Mr. Hite, you have been very good to sit there through the whole hearing. I do want to ask you to weigh in in terms of data collection, where you think we are on that, what needs to be done to make sure we are at the point we need to be. Mr. Hite. Certainly, Mr. Chairman. For any large database like this, it should be viewed as a process. It is a journey that you have to walk down. So I would say at this juncture that the Department is at the end of the beginning of the process. There are some things that have been done, I give them credit for that. But there really is a lot that still remains to be done. While I am cautiously optimistic going forward, in part because the Department agreed with the recommendations we laid out, which was things that needed to be done going forward, I do have some doubts. And some of those doubts surround what I believe is the need for perhaps more staffing in the program office that is devoted to the acquisition and implementation of this database, and to make sure that we are not too reliant on contractors to do that work for us. Mr. Tierney. Thank you very much. Finally, the last question I had on this was priorities for the General and the Admiral to address. I think you mentioned one of them, prevention, was amongst the many recommendations that you made to improve the prevention and response program. Is there another priority that you think needs attention right away, and to a better degree than it is getting now? General Dunbar. We have already discussed the data. We absolutely believe that the database and the tracking for accountability is essential in order to be able to do trend analysis to further address the issue. Without that, I would continue to just kind of chase tails around the table. Mr. Tierney. Great. Mr. Flake, did you have any other questions? Mr. Flake. I will just yield my time to Mr. Turner. Mr. Tierney. Mr. Turner. Mr. Turner. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In looking to the report, General Dunbar, you and I spoke about the issue that there are a number of recommendations in it that are for congressional action. As you know, the National Defense Authorization Act will be moving here in the next couple of months. Jane Harman and I last year got a number of things that were in it. Obviously the report, we can peruse through it and pick out those things that are highlighted as congressional action, to take action. But I wondered if DOD in response to the report had plans on providing us the legislative direction in some of the areas that you are making a suggestion that Congress take action. Is that on your to-do list, or will you be leaving it to us to go through the report and begin to initiate those items? General Dunbar. Congressman Turner, we provided those recommendations to the Department of Defense and the Secretary of Defense and the military services are looking at that. They will be providing, Secretary of Defense, I believe on the 1st of March, will be providing the report with his comments. So we will leave it up to the Department of Defense. The Task Force for the most part has concluded its review in providing the report to the Secretary of Defense. Mr. Turner. Ms. McGinn, they had some very specific recommendations. When we met in my office, I saw the urgency of it and was saying, gosh, we need to get on these. As you know, the bill will be moving in the next couple of months. I wouldn't want to miss a whole year that DOD has it on its agenda to get those items to us. Ms. McGinn. If I am not mistaken, I think in the process right now, we have been working with the military departments, looking at all of the recommendations of the Task Force, and sorting out an overall DOD response. Because not everybody agrees with everything. So our job is to adjudicate that and make it a consolidated decision for the Secretary. As we do that, if we see things that need legislative action, we can certainly formulate them for legislative action. Mr. Turner. I appreciate your commitment on that. Because on the ones that you agree with that are on the report, we should move now. And rather than our just taking them and putting them forward and then waiting for a response, it would be great if we could work together on that. Ms. McGinn. Just to be honest with you, our process might take longer than that. The process is a bureaucratic process in the building. Mr. Turner. Well, that is the information I need to know. Because if we need to start the process without DOD, we certainly have the report. I can get with Members, including Jane, to see what items that she sees that are important that we might need to move forward. Mr. Tierney. Thank you. Ms. Harman, do you have an additional comment? Ms. Harman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I assume your committee member---- Mr. Tierney. Ms. Speier, if you are done. She is next and final here. Ms. Harman. I would yield to you first. Do I have to go now? Mr. Tierney. If you have it, go with it. Ms. Harman. OK. Two things. First, the comment on leadership, I surely agree. I have spoken personally to the Secretary of Defense and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs about speaking out on this issue. We all know that don't ask, don't tell has gotten a lot of air time lately. I personally hope we repeal that policy. But they have spoken out on that issue. And I would just use my time to urge them to speak out on this very compelling issue. But here is my question. I understand in the new GAO report you have findings, for example, that say victims don't seek prosecutions for fear of a humiliating public trial. You also say that half the women who do not report rape or sexual assault do so for fear of retaliation. There are remedies for these things. For example, you could recommend some way to close the trial so it would not be publicly humiliating, or you could recommend that people have an easier time to see a base transfer, in the case of those who worry that they would be retaliated against. That was one of the issues in the Lauterbach problem. Why didn't you make those recommendations? Ms. Farrell. I think this is the Task Force report, not to be confused with the GAO report. Ms. Harman. Excuse me, I did confuse it with yours. Defense Task Force, you folks in the middle, why didn't you make those recommendations? Admiral Iasiello. I think, Congresswoman, all the many areas that we looked at, we understood the role of leadership, we understood when we went around and interviewed all the commanders, especially the courts martial convening authorities in every place, and if you saw the extensive list of visitations that we did. Ms. Harman. Right. Admiral Iasiello. We looked at whether or not they aggressively addressed the issue of sexual assault and how aggressively they prosecuted any sort of concerns that arose within their commands. The feeling that we got as a Task Force was that the majority, the major majority of commanders and courts martial convening authorities not only take this seriously, but they are out aggressively prosecuting where they can with the advice of counsel. As far as the safety issues, we have specific recommendations for the safety of victims. And we were very, very concerned about the way victims were treated once they reported to their command. And even those that in a restricted way reported to the chaplain or someone else, as the General mentioned, we were very concerned about the safety and security issues. We even went into the barracks and the dormitories of the Air Force, we went to see about the security issues that were there, and how people were handled, how they were processed, how they were tended to whenever they reported an incident of sexual assault. So that was part of our focus, a very important part of our focus. And our recommendations, I think, did address some of those issues. Ms. Harman. Well, let me just conclude, Mr. Chairman. I think the rate of prosecutions lags way behind civil society. I think there is much more to do. Part of it is a training issue for prosecutors. Again, I think the Army offers the best example for what needs to be done there. And on the safety issue, there are some specific recommendations that I think could have been in your report and weren't. For example, facilitating base transfer, which would encourage a lot of women to come forward who would otherwise be afraid to do so, and if they did so in the case of Lauterbach, would have a horrible outcome. So I think there is more to do, and I think it needs to focus around prevention much more than just response. We would get a lot farther a lot faster with this epidemic among those who step forward to protect our country and who in fact we don't protect well enough. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the opportunity to be here. Mr. Tierney. Thank you, Ms. Harman. We appreciate your interest and concern. The gentlewoman from California, Ms. Speier, we thank you for your interest and for your leadership on this issue. We are happy you could join us here today. You are recognized for 5 minutes. Ms. Speier. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. A question to the Task Force. My understanding is that in 2008, there were 2,265 unrestricted reports that were filed. Of those reports, how many of them then were pursued as full criminal investigations and court martials? General Dunbar. Congresswoman, actually, I believe that the SAPRO office is better suited, because they have the data for that, to answer the question. Ms. Speier. Right. Dr. Whitley. I think we have the report. There were 2,389 investigations on reports made on this and prior years. We collect data by fiscal year. But certainly, if an assault occurs in September, for example, that case may not be completed by then. But there were 2,763 subjects, 592 were pending disposition, and 136 subjects were civilians or foreign nationals not subject to the UCMJ, so the commander couldn't take action. There were 129 subjects that were unidentified. There were 1,074 subjects that had cases that were unsubstantiated, unfounded, lacked sufficient evidence or involved a victim that recanted or a subject that died. There were 1,339 subjects that were referred by commanders for the following action: there were 317 referred for courts martial, 247 for non-judicial punishment and 268 administrative actions or discharges. Ms. Speier. OK, if I understand this correctly, over half of the cases or just about half the cases were not dealt with? You said 1,074 because of lack of evidence or recanting or the like. So half of those people who had the guts to come forward were dismissed for whatever reason, correct? And then of the remaining, you have 317 that were court martials of that original 2,300 figure, and 247 that had some kind of administrative action taken. So I am in the service, I know those figures. What is the likelihood of me reporting a second time, when those who had the guts to report end up seeing that half of them are thrown out? Now, I don't know the circumstances when they were or how they were thrown out. But those numbers are chilling. If in fact there are so many more that go unreported for the very reason that they are concerned about ostracism or retaliation, we have a bigger problem than one might suspect. Dr. Whitley. Well, there is another point. We have six different categories of sexual assault in the UCMJ, from the least egregious, which would be indecent touching, to aggravated assault or rape. So there is a wide variety of sexual assault. It is not just rape. But what you were talking---- Ms. Speier. Well, wait a second. With all due respect, unwelcome touching to me is an assault. And I think for most women it would be an assault. To somehow diminish them because there are levels of gravity is not really comforting. Dr. Whitley. The commander does have the discretion to award a punishment he feels fits the crime, if you will. And we do provide synopses in our report which describes each of these cases. And I don't think you will get any of us disagreeing with you and we know we can do better. Just as Ms. Harman said, part of her interest and her relationship with the former Secretary of the Army, we are looking closer at how to train trial counsel. We actually just got the funding to train prosecutors and investigators, so that we can improve the process. I wanted to comment on something. You used the word chilling. And there is something in the literature called the chilling effect. If you do send a case to court martial and that person gets off, by the time it gets back to the people in the unit or the people in the academy, usually the perception is the victim lied. It has a tremendous effect when that happens. Ms. Speier. So I would suggest a couple things. One is, there has to be a way to video tape a victim and change their voice so that they aren't necessarily specifically identifiable. Two, I think that there should be a zero tolerance policy that is communicated everywhere and then is reflect in what actually takes place. Third, I think there should be some kind of a review of those women who come forward and who make a complaint. There is a court martial, the individual perpetrator is court martialed. What then happens to the victim in their professional career? I would like to see us track them to see, what is their life like afterwards. Because if their life is for all intents and purposes professionally destroyed, that sends us yet another message of why were are not getting people coming forward. Thank you. I yield back. Mr. Tierney. Thank you very much. That concludes our questioning of this panel. I just want to take one moment to thank our friends from the Government Accountability Office. You have been steadfast and incredibly helpful on this. I suspect your work isn't done. At some point we may want you to look at this again for us. I just want to thank you for the great work that you have done. Dr. Iasiello and General Dunbar, thank you for your service to the country generally, but specifically on this Task Force. I understand from your testimony you think you are done now and that completes your responsibilities on this. So I am sure you are on to other things. We appreciate a great deal the work that you did. We understand the magnitude of it, the time and effort that went into it, and the specificity in your report is incredibly helpful. I really believe that it is going to be looked at and used as a guide to folks going forward. So we thank both of you as well. And Dr. Whitley and Ms. McGinn, when this whole series of hearings started, we weren't too favorably disposed toward the Department's attitude toward this. That is nothing personal against Dr. Whitley, because I think she had her work impeded. Mr. Dominquez and others I think were horrible, and I think they did things they shouldn't have done. I think their attitude wasn't where it should be on this issue. I am impressed with both of you, with the sense of responsibility and desire to deal with this. I think we have a way to go, and I think your acknowledgement of that is comforting to us, that you understand exactly what is going on here and that there is work to do. You seem quite willing to do it and to use the good resources that you have at your disposal to get it done. I think I can speak for the rest of the subcommittee on this: we appreciate that. It has not always been the case. It gives us a feeling that as we go forward, we don't have to have hearing after hearing after hearing to see whether or not the Department of Defense takes it seriously. So good luck going forward. Thank you everybody for your work. I hope that the men and women in the service are somewhat comforted by the fact that you are on it, you are on the case and you are working on it, and as a group, we will all take this as a joint challenge and move forward. Thank you very much. At this point in time, I want to thank the witnesses on this panel and we will now receive testimony from our second panel before us, Mr. Merle Wilberding. Good afternoon, Mr. Wilberding. Thank you very much for being here. Mr. Merle Wilberding is an attorney with the law firm of Coolidge Wall in Dayton, OH. He represented Mary Lauterbach after the death of her daughter, Lance Corporal Maria Lauterbach. He has previously worked with a number of additional families of victims of military sexual assault. He is also a retired captain in the U.S. Army, where he served in the Judge Advocate General Corps. Mr. Wilberding holds a J.D. from the University of Notre Dame. I want to thank you for coming here, Mr. Wilberding, making yourself available for us to help us. I ask that you stand and raise your right hand. [Witness sworn.] Mr. Tierney. Thank you very much. With that, Mr. Wilberding, you have a statement, I understand. Your full statement will be put on the record, of course. But if you could tell us in 5 minutes generally your points, your high points on that, we would appreciate it. STATEMENT OF MERLE F. WILBERDING, ATTORNEY, COOLIDGE WALL Mr. Wilberding. Thank you. Thank you, Chairman Tierney, Congressman Flake and members of the panel. I appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today. I have submitted m written statement and I will give you a short summary right now. I am Merle Wilberding. I am an attorney from Dayton, OH. During the Vietnam War I served as a captain the Army Judge Advocate General Corps. Since early January 2008, I have represented Mary Lauterbach, the mother of Marine Lance Corporal Maria Lauterbach, who had filed a claim of sexual assault against fellow Marine Corporal Cesar Laurean, only to be murdered 6 months later and buried in a shallow fire pit in Cesar Laurean's back yard. At a hearing before this subcommittee on July 31, 2008, Mary Lauterbach became the voice of her daughter as she shared the fears and harassment that Maria had endured after she had filed the sexual assault complaint. This afternoon, I want to talk about the continuing stream of other victims and their families who have reached out to Mary and me. For me, it started in the cemetery after Maria's funeral. I was approached by three or four women, all of whom told me that they had been victims of sexual assault in the military and all of whom told me that their lives had never recovered. As time continued, the stories from other victims continued. In February, we had a call from a mother whose daughter had filed a sexual assault claim against a fellow soldier. My heart went out to her as she said, ``Maria's story could have been my daughter's story. The only difference between my daughter and Maria Lauterbach is that Maria is dead.'' In March, we had another call from a mother whose 19 year old daughter had filed a sexual assault claim against a fellow soldier. Instead of receiving protection and programs to help her recover, she was haunted by the ostracism and the disbelief of the fellow members of the unit. Meanwhile, the accused was treated with sympathy and deference as the case moved forward. In June, we received a phone call from a mother who had watched NBC's Dateline program on Maria Lauterbach's case. Her 20 year old daughter was a Marine who had just made a sexual assault claim. Now she feared for her life. She had a military victim advocate assigned to her, but the victim advocate told her that there wasn't really anything she could do for her. All of these stories were virtually identical. The complaining victim became isolated and harassed. Their lives were disoriented. The victim became the accused; the accused became the victim. Significantly, all of these victims were no longer effectively contributing to the mission of the military. I want to focus on victim advocates, or as I often call them, victim listeners. In every discussion I have had with victims and victims' families, the victim advocate was described as a very nice person who expressed her concern and understanding but was not proactive and was not independent, and either could not or was not able to do anything. In Maria Lauterbach's case, her victim advocate was her direct report within the chain of command. Consequently, her victim advocate had to think about her own efficiency reports, her own performance reviews and her own obligations to the command. I have read the report of the Defense Task Force on Sexual Assault in the Military Services. There are recommendations to improve the victim advocate program, but I do not believe they go far enough. Victim advocates need the ability and the training to be more proactive. It is at these most critical times that the victim advocate must act. It is important to remember that these victims are often 18 to 21 years old and at this point, very vulnerable, very much alone and very much incapable of making good decisions. Victim advocates need clear authority to act independent of the command. Congress should consider establishing a line of authority for victim advocates that is outside the base chain of command. Are we making progress? I am at the boots on the ground level. What I see is not progress. I have heard the testimony of the panel before and the difficulties of making progress and of measuring progress. I accept their testimony for what it was. But I do not think we have done enough. We need to do more. Victims need a better protection system to survive sexual assaults in the military. And the military needs a better victim protection system to protect their own interests in continuing to have a supportive and healthy and active military force. Thank you, and I am open for any questions you may have. [The prepared statement of Mr. Wilberding follows:] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Mr. Tierney. Thank you, sir. We appreciate that. Why don't we start the question with Mr. Turner, who was kind enough to make sure that your testimony was procured for us here today? Mr. Turner. Mr. Turner. Thank you Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I want to thank you again and also Ranking Member Flake, for allowing Mr. Wilberding to testify. In addition to his work, obviously his perspective is very helpful to us, as he has reviewed the report that we have just received. I would like to ask, if I could, to enter into the record an op-ed piece that Mr. Wilberding has written, ``Sexual Assault in the Military: Looking for a Few Good Changes,'' that has some of the recommended changes that he just spoke about. Mr. Tierney. Without objection, so ordered. [The information referred to follows:] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Mr. Turner. I wanted to ask Mr. Wilberding, when you began to represent the Lauterbach family and the facts began to unfold, you had a critical eye and ability to look at where things went wrong, where the military and DOD did things wrong. I greatly appreciated that, because it has been a great assistance to me as we have looked to legislation that might be able to address some of the issues. But one thing I find really compelling about the story of your experience, since you began working with the Lauterbach family, is that others have come to you. They have come to you with their stories of their experiences. Why do you think people are reaching out so, and have been contacting you to tell you their stories also? Mr. Wilberding. It has been an interesting process in the time period now really 2 years from that. And people have called from all over the country. The cases I cited here, they were in military bases throughout the country. And each time, what was consistent to me was that they had nowhere to turn to, their daughters, in every case, could not, did not have any faith and trust in the victim advocate that they were dealing with. They didn't have any faith in the superiors they were dealing with. They were really struggling. And these are, for the most part, hard-working people who didn't have the money to go to faraway places. In every instance, their daughter was a very long distance away from home. So there wasn't the support system for the daughter from the home that you could have, for example, if a rape occurred in a college atmosphere. But in the military, it is different. I think they were reaching out to us, primarily because one, they wanted to tell their story. I thought they really wanted to get the story out of the struggles, the frustrations they had. And two, I think they were looking for a support group that reassured them that people cared about them. I thought that was what I really felt, was that they were so alone and their daughters were so alone, they were getting no support from anyone in the military. That is what they were reaching out for. Mr. Turner. Your recommendation on the victim advocates, taking them from the chain of command, how will that allow them to be more proactive and what would that do to help us in the system? Mr. Wilberding. It is an interesting concept, especially in light of the conversation from the panel earlier today. My initial thought had always been that when the Marines issued their statement on January 15, 2008, remember that her body was found on Friday, January 11th, and at 3 o'clock the Marines issued a nine-page opening statement, they called it, that listed everything they had done. What struck me about it, and by the way, they read it to us, this was in a conference room with Mary Lauterbach, they read it to us literally minutes before they walked in front and read it. So we had no opportunity to see it in advance and were trying to take notes on it. But what struck me about that nine-page opening statement was, it was a series of statements as to providing some basis for why they didn't do, didn't take things seriously, didn't take certain actions, didn't pursue her. Everything seemed to us that it looked like they were giving reasons why they didn't do anything, and why their guesses at that were reasonable guesses. What struck me is, there wasn't anything in there, gee whiz, we could have done more, we should have done more. It came across with not a mea culpa, but a Maria culpa. It really struck me as they were saying, well, nobody gave us all the hard evidence. If you had just told me all that. And they are putting the burden on the accused to connect the dots. There were a lot of red alerts in that. What struck me about the conference and the panel earlier was that when the question was asked, why wasn't it in the report, and the response was, they talked to the commanders, and I have a good appreciation for that, and a good amount of respect for them, great respect for them. When you talk to the commanders, it is like the same situation to my reaction, it is the same as what I saw here. It is the same as people in general. When people look at facts, they tend to look at it as reinforcing their own position. When institutions look at facts, they tend to look at the facts reinforcing their own position. So when the Marines looked at the Lauterbach facts, they looked at it in the sense of, well, we did this, we did that, nobody told us about this, nobody told us about that. And that is what I heard, frankly, in my view, of the commanding generals: do we need an independent one? No, we are doing a good job ourselves. And I sort of sense that is how the, it is part human nature and part institutional nature. But I think it is something to keep in mind as you evaluate those positions. Mr. Turner. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Tierney. Where would the line of authority line to best assure that independence? Mr. Wilberding. That is a fair question. A reasonable opportunity as to whether or not there is, I recognize the suggestion that it should be a DOD employee, a civilian or a member of the military if it is a military victim advocate. But I think if they talk about it, and I have been out of the Army for a number of years, but the Defense Council and the military have a separate chain of command that the prosecutors don't have. They did that to create some independence in that. In terms of that, why I think it is important, and Maria's case is a good illustration, is the Marines gave their statement on January 15th, this is what happened, every fact is true and nobody told us differently and we obviously don't have any obligation to pursue it. But in doing that, they didn't really look at what had happened beforehand. Consequently, things just fell by the wayside. They didn't have an independent victim advocate saying, particularly in that period, it should have been all the time, from May until December, she went missing on December 14th, victim advocate could have been and should have been doing more things. But from December 14th to January 11th, to me that is where an independent advocate could have been most helpful. What about this evidence? Mary Lauterbach, as the mother, could have been in contact with her, found this, found that, why don't you do more. Mr. Tierney. I get that aspect of it. I think it is a point well made. But to whom would that victim advocate report? Mr. Wilberding. I think they would have to create that system within the military. Mr. Tierney. And what about the Task Force recommendation that there be privileged communications between the advocate and the victim? Is that a good idea? Mr. Wilberding. I think that is a very good idea. I read the victims' stories in Appendix F and detailed the stories where defense counsel for the accused had essentially taken the depositions, called them to trial, I think that is a very good suggestion. Mr. Tierney. Mr. Flake. Mr. Turner. Sir, I want to thank you for coming all this way to make your suggestions. I appreciate your letting us put your article in the record. I think these are things that help inform our decisions as we go forward, particularly that one idea that certainly needs and warrants to be explored. So with our appreciation, thank you. Mr. Wilberding. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Tierney. With that, the meeting is adjourned. [Whereupon, at 5:11 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.] [Additional information submitted for the hearing record follows:] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]