    [House Hearing, 111 Congress]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

    TO AMEND TITLE 18, UNITED STATES CODE, TO INCLUDE CONSTRICTOR SNAKES OF
                THE SPECIES PYTHON GENERA AS AN INJURIOUS ANIMAL

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                       SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME, TERRORISM,
                             AND HOMELAND SECURITY

                                     OF THE

                           COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
                            HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                         ONE HUNDRED ELEVENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                                       ON

                                   H.R. 2811

                                   __________

                                NOVEMBER 6, 2009

                                   __________

                               Serial No. 111-97

                                   __________

             Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary

          Available via the World Wide Web: http://judiciary.house.gov

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                           COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

                     JOHN CONYERS, Jr., Michigan, Chairman
    HOWARD L. BERMAN, California         LAMAR SMITH, Texas
    RICK BOUCHER, Virginia               F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, Jr.,
    JERROLD NADLER, New York                 Wisconsin
    ROBERT C. ``BOBBY'' SCOTT, Virginia  HOWARD COBLE, North Carolina
    MELVIN L. WATT, North Carolina       ELTON GALLEGLY, California
    ZOE LOFGREN, California              BOB GOODLATTE, Virginia
    SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas            DANIEL E. LUNGREN, California
    MAXINE WATERS, California            DARRELL E. ISSA, California
    WILLIAM D. DELAHUNT, Massachusetts   J. RANDY FORBES, Virginia
    ROBERT WEXLER, Florida               STEVE KING, Iowa
    STEVE COHEN, Tennessee               TRENT FRANKS, Arizona
    HENRY C. ``HANK'' JOHNSON, Jr.,      LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas
      Georgia                            JIM JORDAN, Ohio
    PEDRO PIERLUISI, Puerto Rico         TED POE, Texas
    MIKE QUIGLEY, Illinois               JASON CHAFFETZ, Utah
    JUDY CHU, California                 TOM ROONEY, Florida
    LUIS V. GUTIERREZ, Illinois          GREGG HARPER, Mississippi
    TAMMY BALDWIN, Wisconsin
    CHARLES A. GONZALEZ, Texas
    ANTHONY D. WEINER, New York
    ADAM B. SCHIFF, California
    LINDA T. SANCHEZ, California
    DEBBIE WASSERMAN SCHULTZ, Florida
    DANIEL MAFFEI, New York

                Perry Apelbaum, Staff Director and Chief Counsel
          Sean McLaughlin, Minority Chief of Staff and General Counsel
                                     ------

            Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security

                 ROBERT C. ``BOBBY'' SCOTT, Virginia, Chairman

    PEDRO PIERLUISI, Puerto Rico         LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas
    JERROLD NADLER, New York             TED POE, Texas
    ZOE LOFGREN, California              BOB GOODLATTE, Virginia
    SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas            DANIEL E. LUNGREN, California
    MAXINE WATERS, California            J. RANDY FORBES, Virginia
    STEVE COHEN, Tennessee               TOM ROONEY, Florida
    ANTHONY D. WEINER, New York
    DEBBIE WASSERMAN SCHULTZ, Florida
    MIKE QUIGLEY, Illinois

                          Bobby Vassar, Chief Counsel

                        Caroline Lynch, Minority Counsel

                                C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------

                                NOVEMBER 6, 2009

                                                                       Page

                                    THE BILL

    H.R. 2811, ``to amend title 18, United States Code, to include
      constrictor snakes of the species Python genera as an injurious
      animal''.......................................................     2

                               OPENING STATEMENTS

    The Honorable Robert C. ``Bobby'' Scott, a Representative in
      Congress from the State of Virginia, and Chairman, Subcommittee
      on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security.....................     1
    The Honorable Louie Gohmert, a Representative in Congress from
      the State of Texas, and Ranking Member, Subcommittee on Crime,
      Terrorism, and Homeland Security...............................     5
    The Honorable Tom Rooney, a Representative in Congress from the
      State of Florida, and Member, Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism,
      and Homeland Security..........................................     6

                                   WITNESSES

    The Honorable Kendrick B. Meek, a Representative in Congress from
      the State of Florida
      Oral Testimony.................................................     8
      Prepared Statement.............................................    10
    Mr. Dan Ashe, Deputy Director of the United States Fish and
      Wildlife Service, Washington, DC
      Oral Testimony.................................................    20
      Prepared Statement.............................................    22
    Mr. Andrew Wyatt, President, United States Association of Reptile
      Keepers, Grandy, NC
      Oral Testimony.................................................    27
      Prepared Statement.............................................    29
    Dr. Elliott R. Jacobson, DVM, Ph.D, DACZM, Professor of
      Zoological Medicine, College of Veterinary Medicine, University
      of Florida, Gainesville, FL
      Oral Testimony.................................................    32
      Prepared Statement.............................................    35
    Ms. Nancy Perry, Vice President of Government Affairs, The Humane
      Society of the United States, Washington, DC
      Oral Testimony.................................................    40
      Prepared Statement.............................................    43
    Mr. George Horne, Deputy Executive Director, Operations and
      Maintenance, South Florida Water Management District, MSC 5100,
      West Palm Beach, FL
      Oral Testimony.................................................    65
      Prepared Statement.............................................    68

                                    APPENDIX

    Material Submitted for the Hearing Record........................    95

    TO AMEND TITLE 18, UNITED STATES CODE, TO INCLUDE CONSTRICTOR SNAKES OF
                THE SPECIES PYTHON GENERA AS AN INJURIOUS ANIMAL

                                  ----------

                            FRIDAY, NOVEMBER 6, 2009

                  House of Representatives,
                  Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism,
                                  and Homeland Security
                                    Committee on the Judiciary,
                                                        Washington, DC.

        The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:03 a.m., in
    room 2141, Rayburn House Office Building, the Honorable Robert
    C. ``Bobby'' Scott (Chairman of the Subcommittee) presiding.
        Present: Representatives Scott, Jackson Lee, Wasserman
    Schultz, Quigley, Gohmert, Goodlatte, and Rooney.
        Staff Present: (Majority) Ron LeGrand, Counsel; Veronica
    Eligan, Professional Staff Member; and (Minority) Kimani
    Little, Counsel.
        Mr. Scott. Good morning. The Subcommittee will now come to
    order. I am pleased to welcome you today to the hearing before
    the Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security on
    H.R. 2811, a bill to amend title 18, United States Code, to
    include constrictor snakes of the species Python genera as an
    injurious animal.
        We are going to start with a brief video, about a 5-minute
    video to put the hearing in perspective. And we will begin with
    the video.
        [Video played.]
        Mr. Scott. There are 47 species of pythons today. We will
    hear testimony about issues surrounding this bill and issues
    pertaining to the invasion of nonnative constrictor snakes,
    with particular emphasis on the Burmese python.
        On June 10, Representative Kendrick Meek of Florida
    introduced H.R. 2811, which was then referred to the Judiciary
    Committee. The bill was introduced primarily to address serious
    safety and environmental hazards; that is, the presence of a
    large number of Burmese pythons in the Florida Everglades.
    These snakes, when mature, can reach the length of 23 feet and
    weigh up to 200 pounds. They can be a danger to humans, and
    they are clearly a threat to the Florida Everglades delicate
    ecosystem. Thousands now live there as a result of breeding
    after having escaped or having been intentionally or
    accidentally released from captivity.
        [The bill, H.R. 2811, follows:]

                                   __________
        Mr. Scott. As a result of this threat posed to the
    Everglades by the Burmese pythons, Interior Secretary Ken
    Salazar has asked the State of Florida, the National Park
    Service, and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to develop an
    action plan to control this invasive species.
        Much has been reported regarding the threat that these
    snakes represent to humans. Since 1980, 12 people have been
    killed by pet pythons. This includes a 2-year-old girl killed
    in July of this year in Florida by an 8-foot Burmese python
    that escaped from an aquarium in her home. In October of last
    year, near my home congressional district in Virginia, a woman
    was found dead by asphyxiation believed to be caused by a 13-
    foot long python owned by her and her husband. In 1999, an
    Illinois couple's 7.5 foot African Rock python escaped from its
    enclosure and killed their 3-year-old son. The 12 deaths caused
    by pythons clearly reflect their danger to humans, and it is
    clear that all too often owners of these animals do not
    understand that no matter how tame or friendly these snakes
    appear to be, it is and always will be a wild animal and, as
    such, subject to what appears to be some unpredictable behavior
    when in fact the behavior is natural for the snake.
        In addition to the issue of safety to humans, we must also
    be concerned about the impact of these animals to our
    ecosystems when they leave captivity and breed, as they have in
    Florida. Today we will hear testimony about this impact. We
    will hear from U.S. Department of Interior about the recently
    completed biological risk assessment study of nine giant
    constrictors conducted by the U.S. Geological Survey, which
    appears to leave little doubt that something needs to be done
    to gain control over the continued invasion of these nonnative
    species in our ecosystem.
        Although the bill, as introduced, covered all species of
    pythons, in July of this year, subject to a bipartisan
    agreement, Representative Rooney of Florida and a Member of the
    Subcommittee introduced an amendment to the full Committee
    markup of the bill to limit the prohibition to Burmese and
    African Rock pythons.
        [The amendment follows:]

                                   __________
        Mr. Scott. Representative Wasserman Schultz, also a Member
    of the Subcommittee, while agreeing with the concept of the
    bill and the amendment's intent and focusing on the most
    dangerous constrictor snakes, expressed concern that the
    legislation may not go far enough in its coverage. She noted
    the concern that if we only restrict large pythons, then
    anacondas, boa constrictors, and other large snakes might
    similarly be imported and proliferate with similar impact on
    humans and our ecosystem.
        Ranking Member Gohmert expressed concerns that we may not
    know enough about the context in which we are legislating and
    requested that we conduct this hearing when the issues before
    the bill is considered on the floor. That is what has brought
    us here today.
        In addition to the testimony about the U.S. Geological
    Survey study, we will receive testimony from others with
    expertise on the issue, including experts from the University
    of Florida and the U.S. Association of Reptile Keepers, who
    will represent a point of view that differs from that of the
    U.S. Geological Survey. We will also hear from the Humane
    Society of the United States. Finally, we will hear from a
    representative from South Florida Water Management District, an
    agent that is on the scene of a vast area of South Florida that
    is directly impacted by the presence of some of these nonnative
    snakes.
        The question before us is whether the bill we have reported
    from the full Committee reflects the appropriate action to be
    taken on this issue, and we want to do what is appropriate and
    timely without overreaching.
        I will now recognize the Ranking Member of the
    Subcommittee, the gentleman from Texas, Judge Gohmert.
        Mr. Gohmert. Thank you, Chairman Scott.
        Today's hearing is I feel like a good idea and appreciate
    our friend Congressman Meek being here and the rest of the
    panel members. I appreciate the written testimony that has been
    submitted.
        As Chairman Scott pointed out, I did indicate I didn't
    think I knew enough about this, and so I appreciate the
    testimony and the information that has been provided by people
    that do so that we didn't go weighing into an area to legislate
    without having sufficient information.
        But the legislation proposed would amend the Federal
    Criminal Code to include all pythons as injurious animals that
    cannot be imported into the United States. This bipartisan bill
    was introduced by our friend Mr. Kendrick Meek, the gentleman
    from Florida, in June of this year. Currently, the bill has
    nine cosponsors, including our colleague on the Crime
    Subcommittee, Mr. Rooney. Senators Nelson and Martinez have a
    companion bill in that other body.
        Pythons are often imported to the United States for use as
    exotic pets, and clearly, many of these animals are kept as
    pets in the State of Florida. Over 5,000 Burmese pythons have
    been imported via Miami over the last 3 years. I had no idea
    the extent to which this had been going on. It really is
    shocking.
        But despite recent efforts by the State of Florida to limit
    and better track these potentially dangerous snakes, Burmese
    pythons have been reported in Florida's wildlands. Although
    uncertainty remains regarding their actual population, and this
    was staggering to me, an estimated 100,000 wild Burmese pythons
    are living in south Florida's natural wildlife areas, such as
    Everglades National Park.
        Unfortunately, many of these potentially dangerous animals
    are not always kept in a safe or secure manner, and they often
    escape from their cages or aquariums. When pythons escape, they
    can be a huge danger to the surrounding human population.
    According to the media reports, at least 12 people have been
    killed by pet pythons since 1980. Sadly, in early July of this
    year, a 9-foot, so-called pet Burmese python escaped its a
    aquarium encasement inside a Florida home and strangled a 2-
    year-old girl in her bedroom.
        In response to this growing problem, members of the Florida
    delegation got together to craft this bipartisan bill which
    bans the imports of pythons in this country. The language of
    the bill adds these animals to the codified portion of the
    Lacey Act, a law that dates back to 1900, and is primarily used
    to prevent the importation or spread of potentially dangerous
    nonindigenous species in the United States.
        There was some opposition from reptile keepers to the
    original language of H.R. 2811, as introduced. Those opposed to
    the bill felt that a ban on the import of all pythons was far
    too broad. At a markup of the bill, Mr. Rooney offered an
    amendment that would limit the types of snakes that would fall
    under the ban. The amendment was adopted by the Committee, but
    I did ask for this hearing so Members could learn more about
    the subject, and I have already learned a great deal from the
    written testimony that has been provided by our witnesses.
        And so I appreciate the opportunity to have this hearing
    which has caused so much information to be submitted to us.
    Obviously our colleagues on both sides of the aisle from
    Florida realized there was a problem for Florida. I felt like
    it was important to see how much of a problem this was not just
    for Florida but for the United States, and to see whether this
    was something we should weigh in on the national level. It
    appears that it is a far bigger problem than I ever imagined.
        So thank you for coming. Thank you for having the hearing,
    Chairman Scott.
        I appreciate Mr. Meek's and Mr. Rooney's persistence in
    this manner, and I look forward to more information we get.
        Mr. Scott. Thank you. We usually ask for other statements
    to be placed in the record, but the gentleman from Florida has
    been so active in this area, we will make an exception and
    allow him to make a statement.
        The gentleman from Florida.
        Mr. Rooney. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to thank
    Chairman Scott and Ranking Member Gohmert for holding this very
    important hearing today.
        In Florida, we have experienced firsthand the inherent
    dangers of the damages invasive species, such as the Burmese
    python, can do to an ecosystem. The Federal Government, in
    partnership with State and local interests, has dedicated
    billions of dollars toward restoring the American Everglades in
    South Florida.
        As many of you know, the Everglades is home to an
    extraordinary variety of birds, fish, and other wildlife. Many
    are threatened or endangered. We are working tirelessly to save
    this threatened habitat to ensure the survival of the native
    wildlife; but, sadly, an invasive predator threatens all of the
    progress we have made.
        The Burmese python has no natural predators in the Florida
    Everglades. They even prey on native adult alligators. You may
    have seen the famous picture of a huge python that attempted to
    eat a 6-foot alligator. This is the reality that we are facing
    in South Florida today.
        There are estimates of over 100,000 Burmese pythons
    currently living in the Everglades. These vicious predators can
    grow 6 to 8 feet in a single year and prey on wading birds and
    other wildlife we are working so diligently to save. They
    thrive on our subtropic climate and abundant food resources. In
    2006, the South Florida Water Management District filed a
    petition with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife to have Burmese
    pythons listed as an injurious species under the Lacey Act.
        Just so I am clear, they petitioned for this 3 years ago
    this June. In that time, thousands more Burmese pythons have
    been imported into the United States, and more damage has been
    done to the ecosystem of South Florida. Not only are these
    deadly predators wreaking havoc on the Everglades, but earlier
    this year, we heard the tragic news reports of a 2-year-old who
    was strangled in her crib while she slept by a pet Burmese
    python.
        This past summer, a 17-foot Burmese python was found and
    killed in Okeechobee, Florida, which is in my district. For
    those not familiar with this area, this city is north of Lake
    Okeechobee and over 100 miles north of Everglades National
    Park. These snakes pose a real threat to health and human
    safety and should be listed under the Lacey Act.
        We have been waiting for 3 years for the Fish and Wildlife
    to issue a decision. Three years is too long. We cannot wait
    any more. And too much is at risk.
        My fellow delegation member, Mr. Kendrick Meek, who is here
    today, introduced H.R. 2811 to legislatively do what we have
    been waiting 3 years for the Fish and Wildlife to do, ban the
    further importation of these dangerous snakes. H.R. 2811 will
    help us fight the growing problem of Burmese pythons at the
    source, by keeping them from entering our country. It is a
    piece of the solution, and a very important piece I might add.
    And I thank the Member for joining us today.
        I was very pleased with the recent USGS risk assessment of
    nine large species of pythons, anacondas, and the boa
    constrictor. The risk assessment confirmed what we have long
    feared: Of the nine, four were determined to have a medium risk
    of establishment; and five, which includes the Burmese and the
    African Rock, were found to have a high risk of establishment.
    While this puts us one step closer to a Fish and Wildlife
    determination, time continues to pass and with more of these
    dangerous predators being imported.
        While H.R. 2811 is not a silver bullet to ending the
    problem in South Florida, it is a vital step toward reaching
    that goal. We must stop the further introduction of these
    snakes while we continue to work to eradicate them from the
    Everglades. I look forward to hearing from today's witnesses,
    and yield back the remainder of my time.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Mr. Scott. Thank you, Mr. Rooney.
        We have two panels of witnesses to help consider the issue
    today. Our first panel will consist of Congressman Kendrick
    Meek of the 17th District of Florida. He is in his fourth term
    of Congress, is a Member of the House Ways and Means Committee,
    the Democratic Steering and Policy Committee, the NATO
    Parliamentary Assembly, and he is Chairman of the Board of
    Directors of the Congressional Black Caucus Foundation, and he
    is the lead sponsor of H.R. 2811.
        Mr. Meek, I assume you can stay within 5 minutes without a
    clock.
        Mr. Meek. I will try.
        Mr. Scott. Mr. Meek, it is a pleasure to see you here
    today, and look forward to your testimony.

     TESTIMONY OF THE HONORABLE KENDRICK B. MEEK, A REPRESENTATIVE
                 IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF FLORIDA

        Mr. Meek. Mr. Chairman, let me just say, hopefully, I won't
    go against my time. I was noticing that this time keeper was
    close, unusually close, to me. But I will move it back a little
    further.
        It is a honor to be before the Subcommittee, and Mr.
    Chairman, you and your Ranking Member are very good friends of
    mine here before Congress.
        And Mr. Rooney, I want to thank him for all of his hard
    work on this legislation. This is truly bipartisan.
        Mr. Chairman, I have a couple of illustrations here that I
    want to show, because I believe the Members of the Committee
    have shaped the debate as it relates to why we are here. This
    sells it. This H.R. 2811 sells itself. There are a number of
    incidents that have been out there involving children, public
    safety. Also, as it relates to the ecosystem and the Florida
    Everglades, the python, the Burmese python does not have a
    natural predator, so it is the top of the food chain in the
    Florida Everglades. When the Florida alligator is being slammed
    by a snake, I think it is time to do something.
        We have a number of young people that buy these snakes, and
    then Johnny goes off to school, and we find ourselves in a
    situation where the parent has to find a way to dispose of
    these animals, and many times they release them into what they
    believe is a natural habitat, which it is not. These pythons
    lay up to 100 eggs. They get up to 12 to 16 feet in length in a
    given year, and they reproduce fast. So now we have over
    30,000--well over 30,000--pythons in the Florida Everglades,
    far too many to trap. We have to stop the spigot and by
    outlawing these from snakes by being imported. It is very, very
    important.
        Mr. Chairman, for the record, I would like to say I know
    the Committee has already voted in full Committee on this
    legislation, but I want to share with you, proponents and
    opponents of the bill, that I think that this Committee has
    taken an extra step to make sure that we are doing the right
    thing at the right time. And the evidence is so strong; the
    reason why these snakes should be barred from being imported to
    the United States, I believe that the outcome of today's
    hearing will hopefully have 2811 moving to the floor as fast as
    possible to get it over to the Senate.
        With that, Mr. Chairman, if I can, I have a couple of
    things that I want to--first, we have one of the snakes that
    were captured in the Florida Everglades. It is not alive.
        Mr. Scott. Thank you.
        Mr. Meek. The snake's name is Pandora, and I know that I
    have George Horne from the South Florida Water Management
    District is here.
        Okay. George, if you can help me bring Pandora out so that
    Members of the Committee can see.
        Mr. Chairman, Pandora was actually caught in the Florida
    Everglades. And as you can see, this snake is quite long, big,
    and you can only imagine if this was going--this snake was
    actually kept in a private home or in the Florida Everglades.
    Even the Florida alligator doesn't stand a chance against this
    snake. And I am pretty sure that out of 30-plus thousand of
    these snakes that have been identified by the South Florida
    Water Management District and the Florida Fresh Game and Fish
    Commission, that there are bigger snakes that are out there.
        And so, Mr. Chairman, if you have any or Members of the
    Committee have any questions, I will be more than happy to
    answer them.
        I have a couple of boards here, wherever they are. This
    board here illustrates how many eggs and the size of them. This
    was obviously a snake caught in the Florida Everglades that has
    been euthanized. But see the row of eggs that they drop again,
    not having a natural predator, brings about an unfair situation
    as relates to management and also keeping the Florida
    Everglades the way it has been over the years, a place where
    people travel throughout the world to come see.
        This is also showing you what an 11-foot python
    approximately 10 to--5- to 7 years old can consume. One python.
    So we find a number of the egrets and possum, you have your
    raccoons, you also have the American cots and the little blue
    herons. You name it. Squirrels, rabbits, cotton rats that are
    natural and mice that are natural to the Florida Everglades
    find themselves falling victim to these pythons.
        So, Mr. Chairman, I would strongly encourage the Committee
    to allow not only Mr. Rooney and I but other members of the
    Florida delegation and Members of Congress that have testified
    even there on the dais, Mr. Chairman, to move 2811. I will be
    happy to answer any questions. And, Mr. Chairman, I would also
    ask the permission of yourself and the Ranking Member if I
    could enter my formal statement into the record.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Meek follows:]
                     Prepared Statement of Kendrick B. Meek

                                   ATTACHMENT

                                   __________

        Mr. Scott. Without objection, the statement will be entered
    into the record.
        And are there questions of the witness? The gentleman from
    Texas.
        Mr. Gohmert. Normally, we don't ask questions of our fellow
    Members, but the chart you displayed showing how much a python
    could consume over here, over what period of time is that?
        Mr. Meek. That is from 5 to 7 years, I believe. Am I
    correct? Five to 7 years. That is, from what I understand from
    the South Florida Water Management District that manages the
    Florida Everglades, the flow of water and also from the Florida
    Fish and Game Commission that monitors a number of habitats of
    the Everglades, that is what a 5-to-7-year-old python will
    require to survive. And this information was backed up from,
    obviously, autopsies that were taken on pythons that were
    captured.
        Mr. Gohmert. And the other photograph, what are those eggs
    contained in?
        Mr. Meek. That is actually within the body of the python.
    And this python was caught in Florida Everglades, and of
    course, scientists want to learn more about what they are
    doing, what they are eating, and many of these pythons have
    been tagged and monitored. And just recently the State of
    Florida allowed I think 15 trappers to go out and trap pythons.
    But when you are dealing with 30,000--and they are hard to
    find. Once they get into the weeds and into the water, it is
    hard to find. Secretary Salazar, myself, Senator Nelson
    actually took an airboat tour to the Florida Everglades and to
    talk about these pythons, and South Florida Water Management
    District others brought a python out for us to see similar to
    the size of the one we have here on the table.
        Mr. Gohmert. Do you know if those have migrated? Or there
    are similar areas, wildlife areas, in Georgia. Do you know if
    they have migrated north?
        Mr. Meek. Yes, sir. These pythons, 9 times out of 10, start
    out as pets, and people move throughout the country. The reason
    why the attention has been placed on the Florida Everglades,
    when you start getting a snake tackling the Florida alligator,
    people travel throughout the world to come see the Florida
    alligator, and they reproduce faster than the alligator or any
    other predator that is in the Florida Everglades.
        Also for the record, Mr. Chairman, at the appropriate time
    and also Mr. Ranking Member, I have a Palm Beach Post story
    here that only 39 snakes out of the 15 permits that were given
    to trap were actually trapped and captured.
        [The information referred to follows:]

                                   __________

        Mr. Meek. So, really, as we continue to allow these snakes
    to come into the United States, we find ourselves putting those
    that monitor the movement and also tracking these snakes at a
    huge disadvantage because they are being released because of
    their size. Imagine, you could not maintain a snake of this
    size in your home. And we have--Mr. Rooney talked about
    incidents in his district and we have a number of incidents
    where we find these snakes that are found in back yards because
    they have to feed. And if someone has a family pet or if
    someone has a small child or what have you, we know that is the
    case, in many cases in Florida and any community in the United
    States, these snakes are going to do what they have to do to
    survive. And, unfortunately, they grow to this size, they
    become a danger to the public. They become a danger to
    management organizations throughout the country.
        Mr. Gohmert. Thank you.
        Mr. Scott. Are there other questions?
        If not, thank you. Thank you very much.
        Mr. Meek. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for allowing me to come
    before you today. And I look forward to working with the
    Committee as we continue to work toward this great legislation
    moving to the floor.
        Mr. Scott. Thank you. If our next panel will come forward.
        As our witnesses are being seated, our first witness on
    this panel will be Daniel Ashe. He is the U.S. Fish and
    Wildlife Services Deputy Director for Policy. In this capacity
    he oversees the assistant directors in the Washington, D.C.,
    office, providing strategic program direction and developing
    policy and guidance to support and promote program development
    to fulfill the service mission.
        After he testifies, Andrew Wyatt, the founder of the North
    Carolina Association of Reptile Keepers and the founder of the
    United States Association of Reptile Keepers. And he is
    currently the President of the USARK which works for the
    betterment of the reptile industry by promoting sound
    legislation and the best professional management standards at
    the State and Federal levels. He operates an eco tour, and
    wildlife education companies, provided reptiles and expertise
    in the production of several TV and film projects including
    segments for the National Geographic Channel.
        Next will be Professor Elliot Jacobson. He holds a Doctor
    of Veterinary Medicine and a Ph.D. In zoology. He has served on
    the faculty of the University of Florida since 1977, where he
    is currently a professor of veterinary medicine. Over the last
    32 years he has worked on health problems of a wide variety of
    amphibians, reptiles, birds, and mammals. His laboratory
    focuses on infectious diseases of wildlife and zoo animals. He
    has authored or coauthored 250 refereed scientific papers, 37
    chapters and texts, edited and coedited four books and has been
    either the principal or coprincipal and investigator on 83
    funded projects since 1978.
        After he testifies, Nancy Perry is the vice president of
    government affairs for the Humane Society of the United States.
    She oversees legislative campaigns to protect animals,
    including statewide initiatives and grassroots organizations
    throughout the country. She has spearheaded congressional work
    to end horse slaughter, crack down on puppy mills, and protect
    Yellowstone bison. A graduate of Northwestern School of Law of
    Lewis and Clark College, she has founded the Student Animal
    Legal Defense Fund, the Animal Law Journal, and the Animal Law
    Conference. She co-teaches an animal law seminar at George
    Washington University Law School and a summer intensive course
    at the Lewis and Clark Law School.
        Our sixth witness, George Horne, is deputy executive
    director, operations and maintenance, South Florida Water
    Management District, was named in 2002, and has 37 years of
    district experience in water resource operations and
    maintenance. In that role he is responsible for overseeing
    operations and maintenance of the Central and Southern Florida
    Project as well as other district water control and conveyance
    facilities. This water management system includes more than
    2,300 miles of canals and levees, 2,200 water control
    structures, 61 pump stations, and over 1 million acres of land
    across the district's 16-county region.
        Now, each of our witness's written statements will be
    entered into the record in its entirety, and I will ask each of
    our witnesses to summarize their testimony in 5 minutes or
    less. And to help stay within that time, there is a lighting
    device on the table which will begin green, switch to yellow
    when you have 1 minute, and will turn red when your time has
    expired.
        Mr. Ashe.

      TESTIMONY OF DAN ASHE, DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF THE UNITED STATES
               FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE, WASHINGTON, DC

        Mr. Ashe. Good morning, Chairman Scott, Ranking Member
    Gohmert, and Members of the Subcommittee. I am Dan Ashe. I am
    the deputy director of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. And
    we appreciate the opportunity to testify here today,
    Congressman Meek's leadership, and your timely consideration of
    a very important conservation issue.
        Being an executive branch agency, we generally prefer to
    allow administrative processes to run their course, but today
    we are here to support H.R. 2811 as reported and also to
    recommend amending the legislation to include all nine species
    of large constrictor snakes in light of the recently released
    U.S. Geological Survey risk assessment.
        We believe that the Burmese python and the other large
    constrictor snakes present a clear and urgent threat. The
    Burmese python population estimate is now in the tens of
    thousands putting a variety of imperiled species and the
    Everglades ecosystem at risk. But Burmese pythons are not the
    only concern. These other species of large snakes that are or
    may be breeding in the Everglades now including boa
    constrictors and northern African pythons and other species may
    pose a similar risk.
        Given the value of the Everglades' ecosystem, its
    biological diversity, and the potential threat to other
    ecosystems and species, all nine large constrictor snakes will
    be the focus of the Service's continued assessment under the
    Lacey Act.
        Unfortunately, there is no silver bullet that will
    comprehensively address the conservation challenge presented by
    these snakes. We lack effective trapping and other control
    technologies. We lack capacity to detect the snakes in the
    wild. We lack adequate science, management, and regulatory
    tools to prevent the further introduction and spread of these
    predators. Therefore, we believe that immediate action is
    appropriate, and we urge the Subcommittee to take that action.
        In June 2006, the Service received a request from the South
    Florida Water Management District to list Burmese pythons as an
    injurious species under the Lacey Act. At that time, at the
    time the petition was submitted, no scientific information had
    been compiled on Burmese pythons that would enable a rigorous
    assessment of risk and potential impacts to the Everglades and
    other ecosystems.
        As a result, in 2007, the Fish and Wildlife Service and the
    National Park Service partnered to jointly fund the risk
    assessment for these nine large constrictor snake species
    considered invasive or potentially invasive in the United
    States.
        Of the nine constrictors assessed, as was noted before,
    five were shown to pose a high risk to ecosystem health,
    including the Burmese python, Northern African python, Southern
    African python, yellow anaconda, and boa constrictor. The
    remaining four large constrictors, the reticulated python,
    green anaconda, Beni anaconda, and Deschauensee's anaconda,
    were shown to pose a medium risk. None of the large
    constrictors that were assessed were classified as a low-risk.
        In addition to the risk assessment, the Service published a
    notice of inquiry in January of 2008 soliciting biological,
    economic, and other data related to the potential of adding
    these large constrictor snakes to the list of injurious
    wildlife. We received over 1,500 responses. The Service is
    using this information and the risk assessment in our ongoing
    evaluation of whether these constrictor snakes should be
    considered as injurious under the Lacey Act.
        We are completing economic analysis and documentation
    required under the National Environmental Policy Act. We expect
    to complete our internal review and be positioned to publish a
    proposed Lacey Act determination in early 2010. Should a
    proposed rule be issued, the publication would be followed by
    public comment and a final decision would be possible as early
    as mid-2011. Given the importance of this issue, the Service is
    working diligently to complete the administrative process, but
    it is complex and time consuming.
        In summary, the Department supports H.R. 2811 as reported,
    and recommends amending the legislation to include all nine
    species of large constrictor snakes. We appreciate Congressman
    Meek and the Subcommittee bringing attention to this
    conservation concern. Thanks for the opportunity to testify
    today, and I would be happy to answer questions.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Ashe follows:]
                         Prepared Statement of Dan Ashe

                                   __________

        Mr. Scott. Thank you.
        Mr. Wyatt.

    TESTIMONY OF ANDREW WYATT, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES ASSOCIATION
                     OF REPTILE KEEPERS, GRANDY, NC

        Mr. Wyatt. Good morning, Chairman Scott, Ranking Member
    Gohmert, and the rest of the Subcommittee. I want to thank you
    for the opportunity to come before you and present testimony
    here on H.R. 2811. My name is Andrew Wyatt, and I am here
    representing the United States Association of Reptile Keepers,
    of which I serve as president.
        Over the past 60 years, the practice of keeping reptiles
    has changed from an obscure hobby to an incredibly widespread
    and mainstream part of the American experience. Reptiles have
    become intensely popular and now present in millions of
    American households. One in every 25 U.S. households has one or
    more reptiles. They now permeate pop culture, movies,
    advertising. And I am sure you are all familiar with the Geico
    gecko.
        The reptile industry has grown into a sophisticated and
    independent $3 billion a year industry. Herpetoculturalists
    produce high-quality captive bred animals for collectors,
    research, zoos, museums, TV, and film. These animals can be
    valued at over $100,000 for individual specimens. Millions of
    dollars flow into the national economy from the reptile
    industry. It is interlaced and interconnected with all levels
    of economy. The purchase of equipment, dry goods, bedding,
    cages channel money into U.S. manufacturing.
        Millions of dollars go into support American agriculture
    with purchases of food, grain, rodents, bedding, et cetera.
    Millions of dollars more support airlines and parcel shippers.
    The reptile industry in the United States accounts for 82
    percent of the worldwide export and trade and high-quality
    captive bred reptiles. Thousands of American small businesses
    and their employees depend on the reptile industry, and there
    would be a great loss of jobs if this bill was to pass and
    restrict all nine species.
        USARK is concerned about the feral Burmese pythons in the
    Everglades and the impact they could potentially have on the
    ecosystems of South Florida. We recognize the problem and have
    been committed to be part of the solution. Our members have
    been intrinsic in the creation of the python removal program
    and in coordination with Florida Fish and Wildlife in South
    Florida. We were the first to be licensed to remove pythons
    from State lands in South Florida.
        USARK has actively appealed to the U.S. Department of
    Interior to open up Everglades National Park to removal
    programs modeled on the Florida program. We do not believe
    captured pythons should be rereleased back into the park for
    any reason. USARK has also offered up $10,000 to U.S. Fish and
    Wildlife Service to establish the basis of a program to get
    pythons out of Florida and into qualified hands that can
    securely and humanely house them for the rest of their natural
    lives. USARK has great expertise in regards to pythons, how to
    find them, where to find them, reproductive behaviors,
    predation, et cetera. Unfortunately, in our view, the Federal
    Government has failed to capitalize on this vast pool of
    knowledge and experience to most effectively address the issue
    of feral Burmese pythons in Everglades National Park in South
    Florida.
        Beyond the invasiveness of the Burmese python, it is our
    fear that the issue is becoming overly politicized and media
    driven, thus creating a situation where we selectively
    interpret the available science. This is an issue area
    especially in this Committee that isn't especially well known
    and thus lends itself to misinformation and
    overgeneralizations.
        USARK estimates that today there are over 4 million boas
    and pythons in captivity in the United States today. This is
    not just about imported animals. This is about animals that
    have existed in the United States for over 30 years, and will
    continue to exist, because there are no provisions in this bill
    to address the number of animals that are already in captivity
    in the United States.
        USARK has been developing and employing best handling
    practices and accreditation, and welcomes a more in-depth
    discussion in this regard with congressional administrative
    officials. It is our belief that the best management practices
    and professional standards specific to certain reptiles is what
    is needed, not Draconian measures that will only succeed in
    destroying a viable industry and many American jobs.
        Some have characterized the two USGS reports as proof that
    the country is in immediate peril from a swift takeover of our
    parks and natural areas by pythons and boas. We believe this to
    be overstated. These two reports have been widely criticized by
    respected scientists. These reports are filled with errors,
    inaccuracies, and very little actual supporting data.
        U.S. Fish and Wildlife has an evaluation process under way.
    H.R. 2811 assumes an outcome that may not be the reality. It
    does not make provisions for all of the animals already in
    captivity. I suggest policy and strong science take precedent
    over political expedience. Thank you very much for your time.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Wyatt follows:]
                       Prepared Statement of Andrew Wyatt

                                   __________

        Mr. Scott. Thank you, Mr. Wyatt.
        Dr. Jacobson.

     TESTIMONY OF ELLIOTT R. JACOBSON, DVM, Ph.D, DACZM, PROFESSOR
        OF ZOOLOGICAL MEDICINE, COLLEGE OF VETERINARY MEDICINE,
                 UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA, GAINESVILLE, FL

        Dr. Jacobson. Chairman Scott, Members of the Subcommittee,
    I want to thank you for allowing me to be here today to discuss
    H.R. 2811.
        As background, I would like to say I grew up in Brooklyn,
    New York. That was my home until I was 22. And I fell in love
    with reptiles not because they are all over New York City. And
    there are not alligators in the sewer system in New York. There
    never were. And so these myths about these animals get
    distorted and especially in movies.
        And for whatever reason, I was captivated by these animals.
    My father used to take me to the American Museum of Natural
    History. I would go in the reptile hall and just could spend
    hours there and to the Bronx Zoo. And then the Staten Island
    Zoo, which was unique in that almost the whole zoo at that time
    was a snake collection. It is a very, very unique experience.
        And these animals have guided me through my entire life. I
    have gone through to graduate school initially working on my
    master's and Ph.D. Working with reptiles and amphibians as my
    research animals. I had die-offs of animals in my colonies
    while doing research and decided veterinary medicine was an
    area I wanted to go into to learn more about the disease
    problems of these animals both as research animals, wild
    animals. And when I graduated from veterinary school in 1975, I
    was a wildlife veterinarian for the State of Maryland from 1975
    through 1977 working through the University of Maryland.
        And then I went on to the University of Florida in 1977
    because of its long history of herpetologists that were in the
    zoology department at the University of Florida and the
    creation of the new veterinary college. And I went there and,
    with others, built a program in zoo animal medicine, which is
    one of the top in the world, if not the top.
        And all of these experiences, I have had contacts with a
    wide variety of animals as a zoo veterinarian, from sea lions
    to elephants to giraffes to reptiles, and I have been bitten by
    a lot of animals over the years, more than most people would
    like to consider.
        But I will tell you what was the most significant bite that
    sent me in the emergency ward; people don't realize. My cat. I
    was bathing my cat. It bit me through my finger. I got a
    Pasteurella septicemia. I had to go to the emergency ward and
    be put on IV antibiotics. Most people don't realize that cats
    have some pretty potent pathogens, and they give more
    significant bites in terms of infection than probably dogs. And
    feral cats are a major issue.
        I just wanted to get that on the table so the reality of
    some of these exposures are really known, and the reality is
    that there are a lot of domestic animal exposures. And pet
    ownership is--bad pet ownership is not just sacred to reptile
    people. It extends across all the domestic animals that we
    have.
        So I was asked to look at this document and make comments
    on it because of what it may result in. And the one thing I am
    struck with this document is one--and it clearly states it up
    front; there is no hiding it, but it's not really dwelled
    upon--is their model is full of uncertainty. And there is
    probably more uncertainty in this document than there is
    certainty, and that is because the biological status of these
    animals in the wild is for the most part unknown. And in the
    wild, most of these animals are going through a contraction of
    their home range of what they occupied because of development,
    being killed by people. And, but probably loss of habitat is
    the biggest thing.
        And the other thing, which is somewhat over--it grabs your
    attention. These maps are very visually appealing of seeing an
    area in green where potentially the Burmese python could
    invade. But these maps are based on climate and climate only.
    And it is stated in here, and it is not dwelled upon, that
    climate is only one factor in the geographic distribution of an
    animal. There are many other factors that if you took this and
    layered it with all the other factors on top, you would come
    down with a very restricted range, I would expect, for the
    Burmese python. And we know there has an ecological disaster in
    Southern Florida, absolutely no doubt about that with the
    Burmese python.
        I would like to make an analogy so you can--this is a good
    analogy. The Florida panther and the Burmese python overlap to
    a great degree in their habitat. Why is that? Well, it is the
    last wild place in South Florida. As Florida panthers try to
    move north, they get killed. As Burmese pythons try to move
    north out of the Everglades, my expectation--here is what I
    propose. Get a couple of 16-foot pythons, see how long it takes
    them to cross I-10 and see if they survive. That would be a
    study that would give you an idea of how difficult it is for
    these animals to cross roads. A lot of the Florida panthers
    that were lost were lost in Alligator Alley because they were
    hit by a car which resulted in changes.
        And so if the Florida panther was just limited by climate,
    it would up in the Adirondacks. Climate does not truly
    represent why the Florida panther is only in South Florida, and
    the same could be said for the Burmese python.
        And, for me, I don't see a convincing argument
    scientifically, as a scientist, where all these other species
    are going to become established. These animals have been in the
    pet trade since I was a child, so that is 50 years or more, and
    they have had opportunity to spread over 50 years in the United
    States. And South Florida has been a disaster in a lot of ways
    because there are all kinds of introduced species in South
    Florida, not just Burmese pythons, but many other introduced
    species and introduced plants which are a threat to that
    ecosystem.
        So, in conclusion, I want to say that, in summation, I
    don't think we are on the edge of the cliff of a conservation
    disaster with the continued importation of most of these
    species. In my mind, they would have been established already
    if they were such an imminent threat because many have been
    brought in.
        That is not say that things need to be made better. And I
    think there can be better rules and regs. And given the state
    of our economy, that loss of jobs should not occur. Thank you.
        [The prepared statement of Dr. Jacobson follows:]
                   Prepared Statement of Elliott R. Jacobson

                                   __________

        Mr. Scott. Thank you, Dr. Jacobson.
        Ms. Perry.

    TESTIMONY OF NANCY PERRY, VICE PRESIDENT OF GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS,
        THE HUMANE SOCIETY OF THE UNITED STATES, WASHINGTON, DC

        Ms. Perry. Thank you, Chairman Scott, Ranking Member
    Gohmert, Representative Goodlatte, and other Members of the
    Subcommittee.
        My name is Nancy Perry, and I am vice president of
    government affairs for the Humane Society of the United States.
    We are the Nation's leading animal protection organization with
    more than 11 million supporters nationwide. That is one in
    every 28 Americans. And we work very hard to create a humane
    and a sustainable world, and that is a world that would benefit
    people as well.
        We are a mainstream force against cruelty, against neglect,
    and against exploitation. And we are the most trusted voice in
    extolling the human-animal bond. Our mission is to celebrate
    animals as well as to confront cruelty, and we will be talking
    about that, both ends of that today.
        We work to investigate cruelty and to enforce existing laws
    as well as to educate the public, and we are the lead disaster
    relief agency in the country for natural disasters and other
    forms of disasters. We also engage in the direct care of
    thousands of animals at our network of sanctuaries, rescues,
    rehab centers, and we have a mobile veterinary clinic.
        We really appreciate this opportunity to testify in favor
    of H.R. 2811, which will add certain pythons to the list of
    injurious species prohibited for the import and interstate
    commerce. We support the bill, and we urge that it be amended
    to include all nine species of large constrictor snakes
    identified as posing a genuine risk to people or the
    environment by the new USGS report. If some of these snakes are
    included and others are not, then the trade will simply shift
    between giant constrictor snakes, and that is a great concern
    to us.
        When Congress has acted on the trade of other dangerous
    wild animals as pets, it has acted comprehensively. You may
    recall, in 2003, Congress banned the interstate commerce of big
    cats, lions, tigers and other large cats, as pets, and it
    passed that prohibition unanimously.
        It also this session passed a comprehensive prohibition on
    primates as pets in the Captive Primate Act by a large
    bipartisan vote.
        We think that H.R. 2811 should do the same thing. It should
    address this entire category of giant constrictor snakes that
    USGS has just provided tremendous scientific background on.
    Otherwise, this Committee will have to keep coming back and
    adding species, tragedy by tragedy by tragedy.
        H.R. 2811 will not take away anyone's pet. This merely
    addresses the interstate commerce, not the possession within a
    State. It really tries to target the exotic commercial pet
    trade. So people who own these animals will continue to keep
    them, and they will retain responsibility for them.
        These animals could continue to move across State borders
    for zoological, educational, medicinal, and scientific
    purposes. This is a reasonable and moderate solution, and it
    balances private ownership of snakes with the very real and
    serious public safety and ecological threats that these giant
    snakes pose.
        Large constrictor snakes do not belong in the pet trade for
    three reasons: The risk to public health and safety; the risk
    to animal welfare; and the risk to the environment. The danger
    of keeping large constrictor snakes as pets was already talked
    about today, and it was tragically demonstrated in July when a
    2-year-old Florida girl lost her life. She was killed by a
    Burmese python kept as a pet in her home.
        Four people have actually been killed by pet pythons in the
    U.S. just since 2006, and three of them were experienced
    reptile handlers. Two of these fatalities were by reticulated
    pythons, the world's longest snake, and in fact, that includes
    the fatality that occurred near Chairman Scott's district. That
    was a reticulated python. So without an amendment to H.R. 2811,
    we will not even be addressing these snakes.
        Animal welfare of course is a major concern for us. Snakes
    are often marketed as low-maintenance pets, but the reality is
    keeping them healthy and safe and secure is very difficult. It
    requires a sophisticated level of care that many owners are
    simply not able to provide. These snakes grow very large very
    quickly, and they can outgrow their enclosure and escape. We
    have a great concern for the welfare of these snakes, for the
    pets that they can consume when they escape, as well as for the
    wildlife that they can take when they get out.
        Now, the environmental risk of large constrictor snakes was
    already well exposed and discussed in the USGS report. It is a
    300-page document that examines nine species, and it found that
    all nine pose a high or medium risk. None of them were a low
    risk. People often purchase these animals when they are young
    and manageable. So it makes sense. We can understand that many
    people think that this is appropriate to do. But the snakes
    grow so quickly that they can soon escape their own enclosures,
    and then they can even be abandoned all too often outdoors if a
    person finds them unmanageable.
        Burmese pythons, boa constrictors, and probably some
    African pythons have already established themselves and are
    breeding as invasive species in Florida. There are likely tens
    of thousands of Burmese pythons in the wild, and those put a
    lot of other already imperiled wildlife at risk.
        Other States can and will be next. H.R. 2811 is an
    important step, but if only some pythons are included, the
    trade will shift from one giant snake to another. A simple
    Google search for one of these snakes will tell you immediately
    how readily available they are on the Internet. Just look up a
    giant constrictor or a green anaconda, and you will find them
    readily available.
        HSUS truly appreciates and celebrates these animals, but we
    believe that they really need to be in their natural habitat,
    not in America's wild lands or in our communities, where they
    do pose tremendous harm to people and to the ecology.
        We really applaud Representative Meek's leadership on this
    issue, along with Mr. Rooney, and we are looking forward to
    working with this Subcommittee. We applaud the Subcommittee for
    its interest in this issue, for holding this hearing, and we
    would like to work with you for a comprehensive solution. Thank
    you.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Perry follows:]
                       Prepared Statement of Nancy Perry

                                   __________
        Mr. Scott. Thank you, Ms. Perry.
        Mr. Horne.

         TESTIMONY OF GEORGE HORNE, DEPUTY EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR,
      OPERATIONS AND MAINTENANCE, SOUTH FLORIDA WATER MANAGEMENT
                DISTRICT, MSC 5100, WEST PALM BEACH, FL

        Mr. Horne. Mr. Chair, Committee, thank you for inviting me
    to represent the South Florida Water Management here today.
        At the South Florida Water Management District, we are
    charged with protecting and restoring the South Florida
    ecosystem and America's uniquely diverse Everglades River of
    Grass. We find ourselves, in doing so, combating the Burmese
    python and the others which have invaded.
        One of the most critical things to South Florida--we are
    charged with restoring the Everglades. And in doing so, one of
    the most critical things that are there is bird counts. I mean,
    and where do we find these snakes but in the exact place where
    we are trying to count birds and ensure that we are doing that
    restoration process. And we actually know that by putting
    tracking devices on them. We have found those in rookeries
    and--which is quite disturbing, because the birds can leave the
    nest. If many of them come in there and they see them, and of
    course, then there are no hatchlings that year, and we lose
    that whole part of our ecosystem.
        The snake that you see there in the picture, there was 59
    eggs in that snake; and 58 of those 59 eggs were fertile. Many
    of the snakes we find are small. If you find any big ones, you
    say, well, maybe someone released that. But we actually do
    necropsies on those, and the things we find in them are all
    those species out there that we are trying to protect. The wood
    storks have been there. Deer have been there. Alligators of
    course, and the things you see on the list. Everything that is
    there are things that have actually been depicted that we found
    in them when we have done necropsies.
        And as far as how they travel, they can travel a mile and a
    half a day. I mean, that is pretty amazing. We have an employee
    that his sole job is to go out and look on a daily basis, and
    he basically rides the Tamiami Trail that crosses the
    Everglades. Almost on a daily basis he finds a dead snake on
    the road. He also runs down the canal, and he found the one
    that you have seen here today, as well as the 16-and-a-half
    footer as the largest one we found so far. The one that is here
    is basically a juvenile. It is not grown yet. You can only
    imagine when you see what is there, what are they going to eat?
    What is going to be left of the Everglades when they are truly
    done?
        And once the food source is gone, they are going to move
    from the Everglades into communities, and one can only imagine
    what happens there. Pets won't be safe. We know that they have
    actually gotten some small farm animals that border along the
    Everglades, and actually the National Park Service was actually
    there and actually captured one after it just ate a gentleman's
    goose in his yard. Because we told him--what are you all doing?
    We are tracking a snake. And, well, it just ate a goose. He
    goes, I am missing a goose. And they found it only a couple
    feet away.
        So it is a real threat. And it is amazing, having spent 37
    years working in and around the Everglades, the fact that this
    one guy basically has taken a third of the 1,248 snakes that
    have been taken in cooperation with ourselves and Everglades
    National Park. That is truly amazing. You know, when you see
    the Burmese python on the road--you see far less of the native
    snakes. You don't see them in the same quantity you find the
    pythons.
        So we know they are moving. We know they have been in areas
    all over the State. I think anyone would be foolish to believe
    that in other national areas that there are not Burmese python
    populations, that people have released them and they are going
    to breed. As long as there is a food source and they can find
    another like species, they are going to be there. They are
    going to establish.
        We found a nest with hatchlings. It truly is astonishing.
    And the South Water Management is committed to try to take
    these out, and we have been out there for a long time. When we
    sort of seen them and realize how large they are, we got quite
    concerned and committed this full-time FDE just to look. And it
    is amazing the things that we have learned about them.
        And it is amazing the things that we have learned about
    them. You know, where do we go? We certainly need a bill that
    is going to help protect us. I don't think we are ever going to
    get rid of the Burmese pythons at this point. They are firmly
    established.
        We have the African rock python, which we know is breeding
    because we found yearlings of that species as well. They are
    going to breed in the wild. As long as there is a food source
    they are going to flourish. I mean, they are very adaptive.
    They are ambush hunters and they are going to be there. You are
    not going to see them a lot, but we have found them, we have
    taken one right down the canal bank from where families with
    small children were fishing and we have taken the snake down
    and said have you seen any of these, and most people don't
    because they camouflage themselves quite well. But the reality
    is they are there.
        One of our Wildlife and Fish Commissioners was telling me
    he had never seen one until we started sending pictures to him
    almost of a daily basis of the ones that we had taken, and he
    could not believe it, which pushed the Florida Fish and
    Wildlife Commission to do more and to go out and start the
    hunts. The people that have just started looking for them, only
    found the 37 this year, but they just started. I mean, and it
    is one of those things that you have to, you know, kind of
    develop a theme for and looking at them and actually being able
    to find them.
        I think, in conclusion, I would like to say the South
    Florida Water Management District and other agencies is trying
    to contain the documented damage and growing threat of Burmese
    python and other invasive animals in Florida. The flow of
    potentially harmful exotic animals across our border continues.
        Just for one example, roughly 144,000 boa constrictors were
    imported into the United States between 2000 and 2007. Federal
    action is needed now to address the immediate threat posed by
    the giant constrictors which have and are likely to establish
    in our Nation's wilderness areas.
        Without prevention, preventative measures to limit the
    future introduction, we will continue to inherit costly and
    permanent management liabilities at taxpayers' expense. Quite
    simply, prevention is the only financially efficient, it is the
    only feasible means of controlling invasive and adaptive
    cryptic organisms like the Burmese python.
        While the amendment does not meet the larger need to
    modernize the injurious wildlife provisions of the Lacey Act,
    it is an important stopgap to limit the importation of high
    risk giant constrictor species, and it is a sorely needed
    measure to help us protect and restore the Everglades
    ecosystem.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Horne follows:]
                       Prepared Statement of George Horne

                                   __________

        Mr. Scott. Thank you. And I want to thank all our witnesses
    for their testimony. We will now pose questions under the 5-
    minute rule. And I will start by recognizing myself for 5
    minutes.
        Mr. Ashe, we have heard the term, all nine species of
    constrictor snakes. Are there large snakes that are not
    constrictor snakes? Are there any large snakes that are not
    constrictor snakes?
        Mr. Ashe. I am not an expert on snakes, Congressman, and I
    am thinking there are large snakes that are not constrictors.
        Mr. Jacobson. There are several. You look at venomous
    snakes, the King cobra is listed at 16 foot, 18 foot. And then
    you get into the Bushmaster, which is up at about 12 feet from
    Costa Rica, Central America, and South America. So there are a
    couple of venomous snakes that get up to that size. Some of the
    snakes related to the Indigo snake that is Florida, there is a
    whole series of those snakes that go all the way down through
    Central America and into northern South America, and they get
    up to 8 to 10 feet. And so they are a sizable snake.
        But generally, the ones mentioned in this report, not only
    is their length but their girth. They get, you know, heavy.
    There are other long pythons from Australia that are much
    thinner and just don't have the impressive size of these
    snakes.
        Mr. Scott. Mr. Horne, you have indicated that you have been
    observing this phenomenon. Have you seen a significant increase
    over the last few years?
        Mr. Horne. Yes, sir, we have. Really, this past year we
    have started seeing them, the road kills. I mean, before you
    would see one occasionally. But let me--literally, this week
    there has been four that our employees have sent back pictures
    of because we document GPS every one of them that we find. And
    they are truly all over. And particularly we find yearlings and
    we find up to about six footers. The larger ones we don't
    typically find as road kill but the yearlings when they are
    moving out and moving to other areas we do find them.
        Mr. Scott. Have you seen a significant increase over the
    last few years?
        Mr. Horne. Yes, sir. The others that we were finding we
    were actually going out and hunting, we were finding them on
    levees. These actually we are finding are road kills where they
    have just been literal run over crossing the road.
        Mr. Scott. Mr. Ashe, you indicated the term ``economic
    analysis''; what is involved in that?
        Mr. Ashe. We would do, in the context of our compliance
    with the Regulatory Flexibility Act and executive orders on
    economic--looking at economic implications of regulatory
    actions, we would, in the process of moving our Lacey Act
    determination forward, we would look at the economic impact of
    a Lacey Act determination. So as part of our administrative
    process----
        Mr. Scott. I mean, what is considered on economic impact?
        Mr. Ashe. Excuse me, sir?
        Mr. Scott. What is considered when you talk about economic
    impact.
        Mr. Ashe. Many of the things that Mr. Wyatt spoke to in his
    testimony. We would consider the impact on small businesses in
    particular, you know, revenue, business revenue related to
    trade in these species and the implications of regulating trade
    for business enterprises.
        Mr. Scott. And would you, would the impact on the ecosystem
    and danger to humans be part of that analysis?
        Mr. Ashe. Absolutely. That is the main piece of our Lacey
    Act determination, would be whether the snakes present a danger
    to humans, to ecological systems, and to endangered and
    threatened species.
        Mr. Scott. Mr. Wyatt, do you want to respond to that on the
    economic analysis? And also respond to what would happen, what
    is supposed to happen to these snakes as they grow.
        Mr. Wyatt. Well, it would have a significant impact on the
    American economy. There are approximately 5 million Americans
    would be negatively impacted with the passage of this bill if
    it were to include all nine species. You are talking about
    thousands of small business owners and we are talking about
    people who are not, don't have 401(k)s. They are small business
    people who have plowed all their money back into their
    projects, and so not only would this bill bankrupt them and
    stop them, and eliminate their ability to make a living, but
    their asset values would basically go to zero overnight. And
    that actually creates quite a problem of logistics that this
    bill does not account for in the fact that there would be
    approximately 4 million. We are not talking about import here.
    The import is fairly insignificant to the trade in reptiles, as
    we represent it. We are talking about the captive bred trade
    and very high quality, valuable animals, and there is about 4
    million of them in captivity of them right now. This bill makes
    absolutely no provision for what would happen to those animals.
        It was spoken to by the lady from HSUS that everyone would
    be able to keep their animals. But when you are invested in a
    business and your asset value goes to zero, and now you are put
    into a position where you have to care for many animals that
    are not going to be of economic value to you anymore, it
    creates quite a logistical problem and is going to open up a
    can of worms into what is going to happen with these animals.
        The best tool to address that issue is the trade, the
    captive bred trade that is continuing to go on, because we work
    with very sophisticated standards, and we have worked at the
    State level in North Carolina, and we are looking at
    introducing a bill into the Chairman's home State of Virginia
    in 2010 and South Carolina as well that puts professional
    standards on how these animals are housed, cared for, safety
    protocols, escape recovery plans, and that type of thing.
        So you are not talking about a casual pet in the context of
    these particular animals. You are talking about an animal that
    needs to be looked after in a certain way and professional
    standards are required as a matter of State law.
        We are also developing a national accreditation system
    where you could have a more uniform way to address that across
    the board. And we would welcome the opportunity to discuss with
    the Committee, turn this into a policy discussion.
        Mr. Scott. Well, if somebody has one of these pets, what
    happens when the pet continues to grow?
        Mr. Wyatt. Well, you would continue to take care of the
    animal. I mean, they grow to certain sizes, but, I mean, the
    people who are serious about this and would adhere to these
    kinds of regulations that are widespread across the United
    States, most States have regulations in place. The State of
    Florida has professional standards. The State of Texas has
    professional standards. So if----
        Mr. Scott. Is there any limit as to who can own these in
    their homes?
        Mr. Wyatt. Absolutely. Absolutely. If you are not
    maintaining the animals at a certain level of security,
    accounting for them with the documentation, micro chipping,
    providing for escape prevention and recovery protocols, safety
    protocols, et cetera, these are all things that have been
    accounted for and they exist in Florida right now. It is a
    fairly new provision that has barely had a chance to take
    effect, but we are bringing more and more people into
    compliance all the time.
        Mr. Scott. Provision in what? Are people licensed to have
    these pets?
        Mr. Wyatt. Yes. I believe though Dr. Elliott wants to
    address this.
        Mr. Jacobson. I am permitted. I have a lot of reptiles that
    I keep at home, and including venomous snakes. And they fall
    under the same permitting as the giant constrictors, and most
    of them are on State permitting, which has become much more
    elaborate in Florida over the last couple of years. Disaster
    plans have to be filled out. You have to list a veterinarian
    who is going to be involved in, if it is an elephant or
    whatever, to being able to mobilize the animal to move it in
    case there is a hurricane.
        There are people in Florida with elephants and lots of
    cats. And so there is a pretty rigorous permitting. And it
    seems like every time the law enforcement comes over I am away.
    And then my wife has to take around the agent, and she then
    discovers I have a new snake.
        Mr. Scott. Mr. Gohmert.
        Mr. Gohmert. Thank you. And I do appreciate all the
    testimony and expertise. And Dr. Jacobson, the phenomenal
    amount of education and training and experience you have. I was
    an Eagle Scout, got some training there and in science classes,
    but also as a father of girls who loved cats. You are the
    expert. I am sure it is necessary sometime, but I would give
    you the same advice I gave my daughters. Quit bathing those
    cats. You are going to get hurt.
        But I was curious, what species or specimen is worth
    $100,000? I think Mr. Wyatt mentioned that.
        Mr. Jacobson. The herpeticulture trade, and Andrew will
    have further comment on it. I followed it and what it has
    turned into is designer reptiles, animals with unusual colors,
    whether they are albinos or they have certain genes that are
    missing and take out a pigmentation and cause a different color
    change, no different than people have been doing breeding of
    fish, of koi and goldfish with different color traits. And
    certain color traits, because they are the first of that color
    trait, and some of them are very--I mean, beauty is in the eyes
    of the beholder, and there is a color beauty in some of these
    animals. And that is where the trade has really gone to a large
    degree. And it has gone to smaller snakes. There are very small
    pythons. Not all pythons are big. But the bulk of the industry
    now is the ball python and all the color morphs of ball pythons
    they go from 10K to 30K or 40K. But as more and more of those
    get bred then the price comes down and then people are looking
    for something else to breed that has a different variant in it.
    And that is how a lot of the herpeticulture business has gone
    over the last 15 years.
        Mr. Gohmert. Well, that brings me to another question. What
    is the difference--and this is for anyone. What is the
    difference between the snakes that are included in the ban in
    the bill and those that were excluded by the amendment? What is
    the distinction?
        Mr. Wyatt. Well, as far as the ones that were, the ones
    that are being proposed to be put back in the bill, you know
    the boa constrictor makes up a huge amount of the trade in the
    United States. The two biggest components of trade in snakes in
    the United States is the ball python and the boa constrictor.
    And you were asking about animals with a high value. There has
    been ball python morphs that have sold for as much as $100,000
    for one individual specimen, and that is where a lot of the
    trade is.
        So when you start talking about stopping the trade in those
    animals, then you are talking about a lot of money and a lot of
    people. If you are talking about the Burmese python, that is
    much more limited. You know, there may be, you still have a
    sizeable number of animals in the United States, maybe 100,000
    or so, but the trade is not nearly as widespread and----
        Mr. Gohmert. But as far as physical distinctions or killing
    propensity, those kind of things, is there a distinction
    between those that are being sought to keep in and those that
    are banned? Ms. Perry?
        Ms. Perry. Actually I think a really important point is
    that the reticulated python is responsible for half of the
    deaths in the last few years, and that snake is not included
    currently with the amended version. And, in fact, in a recent
    USGS press release they talk about how that snake is known for
    unprovoked attacks in the wild.
        So I think we are really overlooking some important
    species. These are all giant constrictor species.
        Mr. Ashe. Mr. Gohmert, I think one important aspect as well
    from the standpoint of enforcement, a lot of these shakes,
    especially when they are younger, and this is part of the USGS
    risk assessment, is they are difficult to distinguish. And so
    from the standpoint of an agency that would have to do
    enforcement, listing only a segment of these snakes,
    particularly because they were all identified as having either
    medium or high risk, but listing only two of them would
    complicate our enforcement because especially when they are
    smaller they are difficult to distinguish.
        Mr. Gohmert. Well, there was--Congressman Meek mentioned
    that there are no natural predators in Florida. And I was
    wondering you know, are there natural predators to the large
    pythons? And how is the population controlled in countries
    where they are native?
        Mr. Jacobson. I would like to comment because that is a--in
    the report it is mentioned on page 6, this lack of predators.
    And the fact is these animals don't hatch out at 400 pounds.
    They hatch out at about 20 inches or 24 inches maybe. And there
    are a multitude, I will guarantee you there will be a multitude
    of animals that will prey upon them. And when you look at
    replacement of most animals to have a stable population, you
    are looking at a replacement of two over the life span. When
    you look at see turtles with 100 and 100 plus eggs, most of
    those babies are dead before they make it out to sea. And so
    that is the process in the real world. And I would expect that
    storks to kites to king snakes, indigo snakes, raccoons, wild
    pigs, feral pigs down there, which are real problematic also,
    conservation wise, they would eat up snakes. And none of these
    pythons is going to eat a big, big alligator. And there is just
    no, that 6-foot alligator yes, and that animal died trying to
    eat that alligator. And that may be the limit to what a big
    python can contain. And when you see alligators that are 13
    feet, they can prey on snakes smaller than them. They can.
        And so that statement to me is not correct. It is not
    correct. It doesn't account for all the babies and what happens
    to them the first year of their life.
        Mr. Gohmert. I had a second part to the question though. If
    there was, how populations were controlled in countries where
    they are native.
        Mr. Jacobson. Well, they are contracting. In almost all of
    these cases, and you will see this almost worldwide, that
    populations of all kinds of animals, including these big
    snakes, are becoming more and more condensed as habitat is
    lost. And these snakes generally don't do well with humans, and
    they get killed off.
        Mr. Gohmert. Thank you very much.
        Mr. Rooney. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Ashe, Chairman
    Scott was asking you about the economic impact on, and you were
    talking about with regard to business. I am curious with regard
    to Florida's tourism economy. Does that weigh into the factor
    of your economic impact?
        Mr. Ashe. It would. Congressman, I think one thing that is
    important as we think about economic impact is that, as has
    been talked, discussed a little bit, we are talking about a
    constrained natural environment, the Everglades, on which the
    United States citizens and the citizens of Florida are
    expending billions of dollars to restore in large part to
    conserve species of wildlife that are greatly imperiled and
    listed under the Federal Endangered Species Act. And if we
    can't control the source of, this source of potential threat to
    those species then the other citizens and the other economy of
    the State of Florida has to absorb that impact as we then try
    to conserve those threatened and endangered species.
        So it is not just simply a question of what would be the
    impact of listing these species under the Lacey Act, but what
    would be the economic impact of not listing them and not
    controlling them because then more of the burden for Florida
    panther recovery and wood stork recovery and Everglades kite
    recovery and Florida wood rat recovery will fall on other
    aspects of the Florida economy.
        Mr. Rooney. And Mr. Wyatt, you were speaking of the
    research and the regulation and the nature going into the
    Carolinas. And you know, one of the concerns or questions I
    guess I have for you is that from what I understand in Florida
    now we are tagging these snakes that are issued as pets or sold
    in the free market. There is regulation with people that want
    to own, as you said. But some of these snakes, if not a lot of
    these snakes, and maybe Mr. Horne can weigh in on this, that
    are being found aren't the ones that have the micro chip in
    them or aren't the ones that are tagged. They are the ones that
    are being born. And I guess my concern here is are these snakes
    getting out of control in the Everglades with the picture that
    we see there with the eggs. And it has nothing to do with how
    well you are doing your job or the snake industry has been
    doing their job. We have got a problem in South Florida that
    has gotten out of control. Do we have a responsibility to do
    something about that.
        Mr. Wyatt. I don't disagree, Congressman Rooney, that
    Burmese pythons are a problem in South Florida. What level of
    problem they turn out to be, the science will discover in time.
    The thing about it is that we are talking about some separate
    issues here, and there is no doubt that there is an established
    population of Burmese pythons in south Florida.
        One of the best tools that Florida has to help address
    those issues is the people that have the most experience in it.
    You know, oftentimes, in these government agencies that are
    tasked to take care of these issues, the personnel tasked to
    handle these issues simply do not have the expertise, as
    illustrated by Mr. Ashe, in how to deal with these animals.
    Well, you have got a large pool of knowledge here accumulated
    over years and years and years and years that you can tap into
    as far as--but one of the things is snakes can be tracked by
    dogs. And that is not something that has been fully explored
    because you haven't brought in people that have the experience
    on how to train dogs in that manner. You know, you can't find
    panthers without dogs either. It is hard to--you know, so these
    animals can be trained to track them down. And there is a
    myriad of ways that you can start to address the issues that we
    would love to become part of the policy discussion on how to
    help Florida address these things.
        And as far as the provisions that Florida has already put
    in place, it is a matter of public relations and public
    education and bringing more and more people into compliance.
    And that has been problematic. But the bill, the statute has
    not been in place that long, and we are working with the State
    of Florida right now, with FWC, to bring a higher profile to
    the statutes that are in place, and bringing more and more
    people into compliance, and that will lead to less and less
    problems.
        Mr. Rooney. I appreciate your offer to extend that
    knowledge and expertise, and I think it should be tapped into
    to the other members of the panel.
        Real quick, before I run out of time, Mr. Horne, can you
    give us a rough estimate of South Florida Water Management and
    what has been spent to actually remove these snakes from State
    land?
        And then I have a really quick follow-up question, which I
    am going ask right now because my time is out. You talk about,
    you know, how many snakes that we have caught with the trappers
    that you have. And one of the questions that I always get from
    the public, so this is a question that I am relaying from my
    constituents. We have hunting seasons for alligators. We have
    tag limits, bag limits, whatever you want to call them. And the
    estimates for the Burmese python in the Everglades, you know,
    can get into the hundreds of thousands, depending on who you
    are asking, who you believe. Why don't we have a system where
    it is open to the public with regulated bag limits and things
    like that like we have for alligator hunts? Why are we only
    using South Florida Water Management contracted people in the
    limited basis we are now?
        Mr. Horne. Well, basically it is one full-time FTE, is
    basically what we are spending on it now. And we have 10 that
    are trained to actually identify, but only one to truly take
    the snake. Because of the concerns with the larger snakes and
    their ability to be injurious to people, we do not allow except
    for the one person which is licensed to actually take them with
    a gun.
        The reason Fish and Wildlife is concerned about opening to
    anyone is because they want people that are trained, because
    the ability for them to get hurt is pretty dramatic as well.
    They are hard to see, they camouflage very well. Actually, the
    gentleman that hunts them for us, he has a unique ability; he
    can smell them, and he sees them quite well, which, you know,
    everyone can't do that. I mean, it is quite unique to go on a
    hunting trip with him when he rides down and basically he just
    rolls down the levee in a pickup truck and he can spot them in
    the bushes or he will smell them. He has actually said many
    times I have been out, I smell one here.
        So they are hard to see, they are hard to track and of
    course it is in the Everglades. I mean, it is not easily
    accessible and typically, you know, they are down low. They are
    not up where you can easily see them, so people don't look for
    them.
        Mr. Rooney. I thank the Chairman, and I will yield back.
    But I would request in any future meetings that we have the
    snake smeller testify next time. Please. I would love to hear
    from him.
        Mr. Horne. He is quite a character.
        Mr. Scott. We have been joined by the gentlelady from
    Florida who has also been very active in this issue. Gentlelady
    from Florida, Ms. Wasserman Schultz.
        Ms. Wasserman Schultz. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And first
    let me take this opportunity to commend my colleague who
    testified on the first panel, Congressman Meek, and my
    colleague, Mr. Rooney, from the great State of Florida. I just
    have a couple of questions.
        Mr. Wyatt, where do you live?
        Mr. Wyatt. I live on the Outer Banks of North Carolina.
        Ms. Wasserman Schultz. And so it is safe to assume that you
    don't live near the area where there are now 100,000 Burmese
    pythons or African rock pythons overrunning the Everglades, do
    you?
        Mr. Wyatt. No, ma'am, I do not.
        Ms. Wasserman Schultz. Do you have children?
        Mr. Wyatt. I am here representing the United States
    Association of Reptile Keepers, which has our largest
    membership in your State.
        Ms. Wasserman Schultz. Do you have children?
        Mr. Wyatt. Yes, ma'am.
        Ms. Wasserman Schultz. I assume they don't live near the
    more than 100,000 non-native Burmese pythons and African
    pythons that have overrun Everglades.
        Mr. Wyatt. No, ma'am.
        Ms. Wasserman Schultz. Okay. So it is safe to assume that
    while you represent an organization that supports people being
    able to keep as many reptiles as they want to, that it doesn't
    really affect you or most of your members because they don't
    live anywhere near the real problem. Correct?
        Mr. Wyatt. Well, quite a few of our members do live right
    around the problem and in fact it is our members that have
    helped the Florida Fish and Wildlife establish the python
    removal plan and have the greatest level of expertise in
    dealing with the pythons in South Florida.
        Ms. Wasserman Schultz. Okay. Let me ask you a couple of
    questions as it relates to your view because you say you have
    recommendations to help address the problem. How are we going
    to limit the likelihood of continued abandonment and other
    irresponsible handling of these animals because, you know,
    while you might think there is a responsible way to, in your
    mind, address this problem, which is somehow different than
    banning the 2 or 9 or 45 species of pythons that are non-native
    that have been released into the environments in which they
    don't belong, but yet they thrive and threaten to overrun the
    ecosystem? What is it that you are recommending to your members
    and what aggressive proactive steps are you taking to ensure
    that your members who are the keeper of these pets are making
    sure that they are not being irresponsible? Because the reason
    that we have this problem is because of the people who keep
    these pets and can't handle them anymore and just let them go
    into the environment. So what guidelines and what steps is your
    organization taking to make sure that that irresponsible
    behavior doesn't continue to make this problem worse?
        Mr. Wyatt. Well, Florida is already on the right track by
    instituting professional standards for maintaining these
    animals, okay. You cannot----
        Ms. Wasserman Schultz. But I would like to know what your
    organization is doing. Since you are the one that is advocating
    on behalf of people being able to keep these pythons, what do
    you provide in terms of guidance to your members?
        Mr. Wyatt. Well, we have a model State legislation that we
    just passed in North Carolina this year that we are introducing
    into Virginia and South Carolina, and similar programs are in
    place in many States around the country.
        Ms. Wasserman Schultz. But I note that you didn't say
    Florida. Is there a reason?
        Mr. Wyatt. Florida has established their system which we
    used as a model 2 years ago. It is a matter of bringing more
    and more people into compliance. The job of public relations
    may be----
        Ms. Wasserman Schultz. But you would agree that once you
    have 100,000 snakes overrunning an ecosystem, that the horse is
    out of the barn, so to speak. So let me ask another question.
        Mr. Wyatt. But it does provide a framework to be able to
    address the situation. It is much like drinking and driving is
    against the law. Okay? If you drink and drive you are going to
    be----
        Ms. Wasserman Schultz. Okay, with all due respect, what
    details, specifically what steps, proactively, are you taking
    to make sure that your members don't release these, quote/
    unquote, pets into the environment when they can't handle them
    anymore?
        Mr. White. By requiring professional caging standards,
    safety protocols, safe recovery----
        Ms. Wasserman Schultz. What ensures that they do that?
        Mr. Wyatt. Excuse me?
        Ms. Wasserman Schultz. What ensures that they follow those
    guidelines.
        Mr. Wyatt. Well, there is no overriding force that will
    force anyone to obey any law. But by providing the framework
    and the remedy of legal recourse through the court system, that
    is how this country operates.
        Ms. Wasserman Schultz. Isn't that the reason that we need
    the standards in the first place because you can't be in every
    pet owner's home.
        Mr. White. That is correct and that is why we are
    implementing those standards around the country in the very few
    places where they are not already implemented.
        Ms. Wasserman Schultz. Okay. Can you describe for me what
    you mean by your more measured approach than the approach that
    this bill takes? What is a more measured approach than not
    allowing these pythons to be imported into the country?
        Mr. Wyatt. Well, this is not just about import. It is about
    interstate transport, and that would destroy the trade. So it
    is not just about import.
        Ms. Wasserman Schultz. What do you mean by more measured
    approach?
        Mr. Wyatt. Well, H.R. 2811 will not succeed in providing
    the remedy that you seek. Okay, it is not going to change
    anything in the Everglades.
        Ms. Wasserman Schultz. But you are not defining anything.
    What is your--you say in your testimony that you think we
    should take a more measured approach. Define that for me.
        Mr. Wyatt. By turning this into a policy discussion instead
    of trying to discuss this in the realm of political expediency.
    There is a scientific process in place that US Fish and
    Wildlife Service----
        Ms. Wasserman Schultz. Policy discussions don't prevent
    snakes from going so large that they swallow alligators, okay?
    They don't.
        Mr. Horne, thank you for being here. It is a real pleasure
    to work with the South Florida Water Management District, and I
    appreciate your expertise here. The South Florida Water
    Management District is obviously working hard on Everglades
    restoration. And I wonder if you could share with the Committee
    just how difficult it has become to focus on your restoration
    efforts, which I know is all consuming, while simultaneously
    having to deal with and divert resources to dealing with the
    python problem.
        Mr. Horne. Well, since we work in the Everglades, we find
    ourselves, you know, training staff to look for snakes and
    protect themselves against the snakes. We have found the snakes
    in pump stations. We have found the snakes inside water control
    structures. I mean, in the beginning when we first started
    seeing them, some of our staff, which thought they were doing
    the right thing, actually tried to capture one which was quite
    large and it got loose in the truck and they had to abandon the
    truck. We have had scientists taking water samples actually
    chased from the water's edge all the way back to the vehicle by
    a very large snake and ended up running over it in a truck.
        So we are confronted with something that we never had to
    deal with before. And then you put on top of that as part of
    the Everglades restoration, one of our critical measures are we
    being successful is bird counts. And we know for a fact and we
    have photographed them and tracked them, those snakes were in
    the rookeries when the birds are there, you know, which makes
    them abandon their nests. It means that we are going to fail. I
    mean, there is nothing we can do about that. And it is very
    frustrating and we don't really know how to deal with it
    because we are sure, relatively positive we are not going to be
    able to get rid of these snakes. They are going to be there
    forever. And that means we are going to fail.
        Ms. Wasserman Schultz. Mr. Chairman, I know my time has
    expired but if I can just ask Mr. Horne one more question. Are
    you concerned that--tell me what you think the consequences are
    to not banning the further import of these kinds of snakes.
        Mr. Horne. I think there is going to be future populations
    of different kind of snakes. I mean, we already know that we
    have snakes in Miami-Dade County on the Deering Estate. We have
    rock pythons in the Bird Drive Basin. We have yellow anacondas
    in Big Cypress National Preserve and Myakka River State Park.
    We already know they are there and different species are there.
    It is only a matter of time and food source that those
    populations explode as well.
        And knowing from that picture the number of eggs that those
    things lay, the parent snake stays with them until they hatch,
    so they are guarded, so there is not any other predator that is
    going to come and eat them until they hatch, we are doomed. We
    are truly doomed.
        Ms. Wasserman Schultz. Mr. Chairman, once or twice a year,
    I look in my backyard, and we live on a lake that connects to
    the Everglades. I live about 2 miles from the Florida
    Everglades. And once or twice a year I look out my backyard
    door and see an alligator lounging on the edge of the bank of
    the lake. Sometimes you see the top of their head, you know,
    the eyes sticking out of the top of the water. This has already
    occurred, and it is only a matter of time before--we have--in
    south Florida, we literally have a line that you can see right
    when you fly into south Florida, you look at the Everglades,
    there is a development line that puts houses on one side of it
    and the Everglades on the other. And it is only a matter of
    time before snakes like that one, snakes like this one end up
    in the backyards of folks with children. There are children
    that have already been eaten and we will hear more horror
    stories unless we take the steps that this bill suggests that
    we should.
        Thank you for your indulgence. I yield back the balance of
    my time.
        Mr. Scott. Thank you. We are going to have another round. I
    would like to ask Mr. Ashe, is there any question that the
    population--I'm sorry. Thank you.
        My colleague from Virginia. I am sorry.
        Mr. Goodlatte. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you for
    holding this hearing. It is definitely a change of pace from
    health care reform. Can Mr. Ashe or Mr. Horne tell me what
    Florida laws exist right now to deal with this? What does
    Florida law allow with regard to the ownership of these?
        Mr. Ashe. Well, basically you have to have a yearly permit
    that costs $100 per year, and you have to have your snake
    implanted with a device, a micro chip. But, you know the
    reality is----
        Mr. Goodlatte. Let me just ask you, why hasn't Florida
    banned these snakes? I mean, I am hearing Dr. Jacobson point
    out that there are very limited places where the snake can
    survive in a habitat, a natural habitat. Obviously, Ms. Perry
    has attached a very impressive list of incidents regarding
    large snakes to her testimony, and they are all over the
    country. But I don't find that there is a large population of
    them anywhere in the natural, in the wild, other than in south
    Florida.
        So I guess my question--I don't object to adding this
    particular species to the legislation that we already have. But
    I am wondering why Florida hasn't banned these snakes outright
    if they are this magnitude of a problem.
        Ms. Perry. Congressman, Florida is actually considering
    legislation to enact a ban right now.
        Mr. Goodlatte. Has any State enacted legislation to ban
    them?
        Ms. Perry. Yes. Hawaii prohibits ownership of snakes.
    Obviously, they, as an island they have unique problems.
    Illinois bans life threatening reptiles, including constricting
    snakes 6 feet or more in length. Iowa bans reticulated pythons,
    anacondas, African rock pythons. Massachusetts bans African
    rock pythons, reticulated pythons and anacondas. Montana bans
    African rock pythons, amethystine pythons, green anacondas,
    Indian and Burmese pythons, and reticulated pythons. New Jersey
    bans anacondas and New York----
        Mr. Goodlatte. That is enough. So Florida could take action
    here that would definitely help in this regard?
        Ms. Perry. Yes, and I think they will.
        Mr. Goodlatte. Now, on the issue of whether we should go
    from one or two, I guess the legislation now contains two of
    the large snakes. And Mr. Ashe, you have proposed and Ms.
    Perry, you proposed that the legislation ought to be amended to
    cover nine species. I take it those, are those all nine species
    that exist, or are there nine that we know that there are
    species that have been imported in the United States?
        Mr. Ashe. Those are the nine species that were covered by
    the U.S. Geological Survey's risk assessment, so those are the
    nine species with which we have both field experience and
    scientific discoveries.
        Mr. Goodlatte. All right. Mr. Wyatt and Dr. Jacobson have
    suggested that if you ban the two, the trade will shift. And
    you have suggested that the trade will shift to the others. Do
    we have any information in the study or elsewhere about what
    the various--I mean, are Burmese pythons the overwhelming
    favorite and these others are much smaller? Or is the ownership
    of these species distributed across a wide area?
        Mr. Ashe. I think, as Mr. Wyatt said, no, they are greatly
    distributed. Our information for 2008 in terms of importation
    of these species, we had a total of 31, over 31,000 of these
    nine species were imported into the United States legally.
        Mr. Goodlatte. Do you have it broken down by species?
        Mr. Ashe. About 24,000 of those were boa constrictors.
        Mr. Goodlatte. So not the Burmese pythons?
        Mr. Ashe. But that is the point, is that----
        Mr. Goodlatte. I understand. But in the wild, the problem
    that the act is designed to cover, is it only the Burmese
    python that is prevalent in south Florida in the Everglades?
        Mr. Ashe. The boa constrictor. Actually there is a
    naturally reproducing population of boa constrictor established
    in South Miami, and so we are finding wild and potentially
    reproducing individuals of most of these species in the area
    now. But once they are established, it is too late really. Just
    like we have seen with the Burmese python, once these species
    are established----
        Mr. Goodlatte. Well, let me ask you about. I mean, this is
    a serious problem obviously, not just for the environment but
    also for--Ms. Perry's list includes a number of instances of
    people being killed. Many of them are in homes of people who
    are the pet owners, so that obviously raises some eyebrows. But
    I think that could be left to State legislation to cover what
    people can own in their homes.
        But what are we doing--Mr. Rooney tells me that his
    legislation would allow for people to go out and trap these
    animals and exterminate them in the wild. What are we doing to
    aggressively accomplish that goal? It seem to me it would be a
    desirable goal to eradicate this non-native invasive species
    that is in the Everglades and other places in south Florida.
        Mr. Ashe. It is absolutely the proper goal, once they are
    established, to try to control those populations. But what we
    have learned with invasive species in general is they are
    difficult to control once they are established in the wild.
        Mr. Rooney asked the question earlier about hunting. And
    the Big Cypress Preserve has opened the preserve and allowing
    hunters in the preserve to take pythons. And so far, in 2009,
    that has resulted in one python being killed. I mean, they are
    very cryptic animals. They are hard to find. And so you, as Mr.
    Horne mentioned, you really have to be a skilled individual to
    go out and find these.
        So what that means is public agencies like the Fish and
    Wildlife Service, like the Park Service, like Florida Fish and
    Game Department, have to expend their valuable, precious,
    limited resources.
        Mr. Goodlatte. I understand. Let me let Mr. Wyatt and Dr.
    Jacobson respond.
        Mr. Jacobson. I would like to make a comment and to
    reiterate what Andrew said a while ago. I was on the Florida
    Panther Recovery Team for 2 years, two seasons in the mid-80's.
    I went down and served as a veterinarian on the team and got to
    know the tracker, Roy McBride, very well. And if it wasn't for
    Roy McBride and his dogs, there would have been no panthers
    found. And that is in a semi-aquatic, aquatic habitat.
        The report downplays dogs because of it being a semi-
    aquatic habitat. And there is no reason for me to believe that
    dogs would not be as effective. They may not eliminate, but
    there is an opportunity to really do something because dogs are
    now trained to smell for bed bugs in beds in hotels. A lot of
    people don't know about that, the problem with bed bugs in
    hotels. But there are dogs now trained to smell one egg of a
    bed bug in a mattress. There are dogs that are used----
        Mr. Goodlatte. I am convinced of the remarkable
    capabilities of dogs, and I think they ought to be utilized to
    find these snakes.
        Mr. Jacobson. They need to be utilized and I will expect
    that the identification of animals in the wild is just one that
    will be many times greater than that.
        Mr. Goodlatte. Do you want to respond to the statement that
    we ought to cover all the species rather than just the two that
    are the bill because obviously somebody is probably going to
    offer an amendment to accomplish that and we are going to have
    a make a decision about that? Mr. Wyatt or Mr. Jacobson, do you
    want to respond to Ms. Perry and Mr. Ashe, who say that we
    ought to cover all nine?
        Mr. Wyatt. I think that if you are using the new USGS study
    to predicate that, that the study, although you know attempting
    to characterize this situation has got a lot of flaws and there
    is a lot of uncertainty involved in it, as Dr. Jacobson
    testified. And so, I think you need--before you start to
    eliminate thousands of American jobs and destroy American
    families, you need to seriously consider all the ramifications.
    This is about far more than importation. I mean, we can----
        Mr. Goodlatte. What do you say to the people who point to
    the pretty significant list of a 15-year old was killed by his
    brother's 11-foot pet python; an 11-month-old boy was killed by
    his father's 10-foot pet python; 8-foot python escaped from his
    cage, crawled into an adjoining bedroom and killed a 21-month-
    old boy in his crib; 7-month-old girl was killed by her
    father's 8-foot reticulated python.
        Again, as I say, I think that those ownership issues
    probably should be addressed by State legislation, not Federal
    legislation. But what do you say to those who say that there is
    a real countervailing issue here to the economic aspect?
        Mr. Wyatt. I agree with you, Congressman. And you know,
    there is no doubt that there are some issues with safely
    maintaining these animals. But it can be done in a responsible
    manner and you need to take a little bit of perspective.
    Although all life is precious, if you look at the incidents
    involving dogs and other domestic wildlife, according to the
    Humane Society of the United States, there has been already
    this year over 20 deaths attributed to dogs.
        Mr. Goodlatte. I understand that. But I also would bet two
    things, one that dogs are in a far, far, far higher percentage
    of households in the United States than large snakes are. And
    secondly, we, as a society, have developed ways to educate and
    so on in dealing with them. I think we are far behind that in
    dealing with these large reptiles.
        Mr. Wyatt. Absolutely. And the legislation that we are
    pushing to put professional standards in place in the few
    places where they are not already in place will go a long way
    to addressing these issues. And the more public education we
    have in bringing more people into compliance, it will reduce
    those numbers even more.
        So you are talking about something which is not having a
    huge impact on the population as a whole. And I don't disagree
    that there are more dogs in captivity than there are big
    snakes. But there is--most of the risk associated with dealing
    with these animals is occupational risk. Innocent members of
    the public outside the owner's home or facility are not being
    hurt by these animals like could even happen with a stray dog.
    It is people within the families. And oftentimes, you are going
    to find that these people are already in violation of the law,
    and have put themselves in a position where they are
    threatening their families.
        Mr. Goodlatte. Or the plumber or the electrician.
        Mr. Chairman, my time has expired. I thank everybody on
    this panel. It is a very interesting issue. And I don't think
    the solution is an easy one. I do think the general issue of
    whether or not they should be allowed in people's homes is not
    the purview of the Congress, but the issue of whether or not
    non-native species should be imported to the United States if
    they do get into the wild and cause significant environmental
    damage and cause a risk to people outside of their homes is
    something that we should be taking into consideration.
        Thank you.
        Mr. Scott. Thank you. Gentlelady from Texas.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Let me
    thank Congressman Meek, a dear friend from Florida, and of
    course, a colleague on this Committee, Congresswoman Wasserman
    Schultz, for the thoughtfulness that has been projected into
    this, into the deliberations that we have here.
        I would like to indicate with all due seriousness as I
    listen to Mr. Wyatt, and I can appreciate the affection that
    those who handle these animals well would have and would be
    suspicious of a regulatory scheme.
        Let me disagree with my good friend from Virginia. I
    frankly believe if an animal is of such dangerous inclination
    that we do regulate that holding by a family in a private home,
    because a private home is also protected by the laws of this
    land and the Constitution. And we protect people from
    intruders. When I say that, the law doesn't allow intruders to
    kick open your doors and come in, guns waving at you, because
    you are protected in your home.
        Well, the same thing. The law should protect others,
    whether it is through being overwhelmed by an oversized animal.
    And let me just say, the idea--and I use animal generic because
    I know some of the specialists will tell me that snakes are
    obviously in a refined category. But in any event, if you have
    the kind of size pet that wants to consume an alligator, then
    you have a problem because I don't believe that that family can
    contain that particular pet. If you have one of this size, that
    is being measured by this group here, I think we have a
    problem. If you have one that has 58 fertilized eggs, I think
    we have a major problem. And what I see this legislation as
    doing is add the constrictor snake of the species python to
    section 42(A)(1) of the title 18, which is known as the Lacey
    Act, as an injurious species that would be prohibited from
    being shipped and imported into the United States.
        Now, I may be willing to go further because some people may
    find that they admire sharks. Certainly we know a whole array
    of shark incidences from the Atlantic Coast to the Pacific
    Ocean. I live on the Gulf Coast, not necessarily a haven, but
    someone might want to say this is attractive; I think I can
    handle this. Let me get a shark egg and put it in my fish tank.
    And the question is, is that a responsible thing to do?
        So I think the question should be asked, and I want us to
    do it humanely as we regulate. But at the same point, I need us
    to realize that we have regulated a lot of things.
        There is a second amendment. That is a very volatile
    question to compare it to. But we do have a level of
    regulation. We want people to own weapons, guns, in a legal
    manner. We are suspicious of people who pile up guns in their
    homes with no regulatory registration, if you will. So we have
    to be responsible.
        So I would ask Dr. Jacobson, in your testimony you focus on
    the inherent uncertainty of risk and you seem hesitant to
    suggest Congressional action when there is merely a risk as
    opposed to an actual problem. Nonetheless, you would agree that
    there is a risk.
        Would you agree that there is a likelihood to some degree
    that a breeding population of pythons or one of the other
    constrictor snakes under scrutiny could emerge in another warm
    climate area in the United States? Do we have that possibility?
        I would like to--if you could just answer quickly yes or
    no, I want to get to Nancy Perry if I could, please, because I
    need to have--just if you would, sir.
        Mr. Jacobson. Based on another paper that contradicts this
    report, it is south Texas.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. I am sorry.
        Mr. Jacobson. There was a paper published in a reviewed
    journal. This is not reviewed. This is what we call gray
    literature. It hasn't gone through the scientific scrutiny of
    peer review such as a paper going to science or nature. And so
    there is another paper that came out that has a different model
    that was published. And it is in contrast to this. And they
    have a map of the U.S. showing the Burmese python only found
    suitable habitat, south Florida and south Texas.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. At this point in time in our history, that
    if they begin to move around the country by way of private
    owners, we may have some greater concern there. I am sure there
    is a climate question and a habitat question. But if there is
    no recognition that they can be both a risk and an actual
    problem, then there is the opportunity to proliferate.
        Mr. Jacobson. Not up north, not as far as those maps depict
    in here. I lived in Missouri, and there is no way they would
    get to Missouri.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Well, let me say this. I think there is a
    large population in south Texas and Florida, so I am not
    necessarily suggesting to you, I would not suggest to you, I
    don't pretend to be a specialist. But I am not pretending to
    suggest that they would proliferate. I am saying that people
    can do strange things.
        Mr. Jacobson. We have had--I met someone years ago that was
    a student at Columbia University, and he had a Russell viper in
    his dorm room. And this was back in the early 70's. This would
    never happen today because of those--it escaped and was never
    found. And there are a lot of examples of animals. They just
    can't handle that climate.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. And I understand. But we don't know on the
    way to his demise how many rats and other animals that he
    partook. I am glad he didn't find a 2-year old.
        Nancy, let me--Ms. Perry, might I please pose--you are with
    the Humane Society. Let me get your sense of this question, or
    the idea of what we are trying to do or this legislation is
    trying to do.
        Ms. Perry. Yes. Thank you, Congresswoman. I feel that the
    Humane Society is here to state that we believe that the USGS
    has identified snakes that, all nine snakes pose either a high
    or a medium risk to the environment. We already know that these
    giant constrictor snakes pose a very serious risk to people.
    And I think that we should follow the path that Congress has
    taken before when we have dealt with dangerous wild animals as
    pets, and we have been comprehensive.
        In the case of big cats, we banned all big cats. In the
    case of primates, we banned all primates just this year. And I
    think this is the same pattern that we need to follow here. And
    obviously, it is obvious from the testimony today, whoever you
    listen to, this is a burgeoning problem.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Absolutely.
        Ms. Perry. Even Mr. Wyatt testifies to the burgeoning trade
    involved. So this is not going away, and I think we have to get
    out ahead of it. We have a problem we can't necessarily fix
    with some of these snakes, but we darn well better get ahead of
    the rest of them. And I think it is time for an amendment that
    would get us there.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Mr. Chairman, if I could get Mr. Horne,
    only because I think he is engaged with the population. I
    understand that the Everglades have residents and therefore I
    see you are in south Florida, and therefore large snakes of
    this kind would seem to pose a threat to your wastewater system
    or the residents. What have you found, besides the loss of
    life, potentially, for that size snake coming into an area
    where there are people living?
        Mr. Horne.
        Mr. Horne. Well, we have indeed found that. We have found
    them on some small farms, as well as some properties that the
    district owns that we leased back, waiting on restoration. We
    ask the farmers to start a new farming practice and that would
    be to encircle the property from outside in. And indeed, on one
    of those in a 1,500-acre parcel, we killed I believe it was 47
    snakes, just by plowing them under, and of course then we went
    out and got them. So that is pretty bizarre.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. About what size were they?
        Mr. Horne. They were anywhere from 6 to I believe around 10
    feet, most of them.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. You would not want to meet them on a dark
    night.
        Mr. Horne. I wouldn't want to.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. So this poses a health issue, a safety
    issue, and certainly I am not sure how many farmers, these are
    farmers farming something else, I take it?
        Mr. Horne. They farm beans and eggplants.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. It certainly does not contribute to the
    business that they are in.
        Mr. Horne. No, ma'am, it does not. And particularly there
    is a lot of bird farmers and everything else that is in that
    area. If they are there, it only stands to reason that they
    have to be in other places. They are just not spotted, the
    concentrations haven't got to a point where you are going to
    find them in the same magnitude that they are there. But just
    the fact that they are there, that there is enough food source
    in that small concentration that would hold so many snakes is
    amazing to me. So, you know, the one--that picture that I was
    just sent yesterday, actually a mower in a habitated area of
    Homestead actually hit one when they were mowing one of our
    canal banks and it was off the bank in the water and we have
    pictures of that.
        So I mean they are there. They are just not being seen in
    the same magnitude that we are finding them very close to the
    Everglades where they are much harder to find.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Mr. Chairman, I live on the Gulf Coast, as
    I indicated, and I was very intimately involved, as many of us
    were, in Hurricane Katrina. And of course we know the wetlands
    and areas around the New Orleans areas. When I say wetlands,
    they are close to the Gulf Coast as well. But the whole idea of
    a hurricane and what it brought in, it is not too far reaching
    to think that troubles that you might have in south Florida
    just because of the nature of nature, that troubles could come
    about because you move these animals or someone brings them or
    however it might be transported.
        We are all ploughing new ground. But I do know it poses a
    major safety risk.
        And I will end on this note. I don't want to see--these are
    snakes that we don't want to see abused. And the import of
    such, the movement of such, the proliferating of such is
    abusive. If they are not allowed to be in their normal habitat
    because they are proliferating around human beings, there is an
    abuse question here, and I do believe we have the right to
    regulate.
        I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
        Mr. Scott. Just have a second round, just very brief
    question to Mr. Ashe. There is no question that the population
    of these snakes, the population is growing. Is that right?
        Mr. Ashe. No question.
        Mr. Scott. At some point you would imagine it would reach
    an equilibrium, where it wouldn't grow any more? Or will it
    just continue to grow?
        Mr. Ashe. We do not know that. We would predict that these
    populations would expand to some point. The point has been
    raised earlier that they are residing now in a very rich
    ecological environment, the Everglades. At some point they are
    probably pretty happy there because there is a good steady
    supply of food. If they start to deplete that supply of food,
    then they would look to move elsewhere. And so our experience
    with invasive species as a whole is that they tend to be slow
    to get themselves established. Once they get themselves
    established, then they began to expand rapidly.
        Mr. Scott. Since they are already there and they are
    growing, what good would this bill do?
        Mr. Ashe. For the species that are already there, the Lacey
    Act, listing them under the Lacey Act would provide an
    additional level of assurance and control. We will have to have
    a multifaceted effort in order to remove them or control them
    in the environment. For the species that have not been, have
    not established themselves in the natural population, that is
    where the Lacey Act will have the most effect, which is why we
    have asked you to include those other species so that we can
    get ahead of this curve.
        If I may, Mr. Chairman, with regard to the statement that
    was made about the USGS being gray literature and not having
    been reviewed, the USGS has a very rigorous process of
    objective and independent peer review for their products. This
    is a citable scientific document, has been through a rigorous
    process of scientific peer review.
        Mr. Scott. Dr. Jacobson, could you say a word about the
    growing population ever reaching equilibrium where it would
    stop growing?
        Mr. Jacobson. I don't have the expertise to really give you
    a definitive statement on it. Some of it will be based on my
    view on the Gestalt of these animals and what they do and a
    combination of biological characteristics. I would expect that
    at some point down the road, say there was no intervention at
    all, there would be some population equilibrium. And I would
    expect that you would probably start, as you run out of a prey
    base, the predators tend to get smaller.
        And I think this may have been experienced on Guam with the
    brown tree snake. When originally identified, those snakes
    before management plans went into effect were much larger and
    now they are smaller as they have eaten up their prey base.
        For these animals to migrate into other areas, I think that
    cars and humans will kill them. I mean, most people on the
    panel I expect have never had a snake as a pet or probably
    don't know many people that have had them as pets, but there is
    a disdain for snakes, for whatever the reason is. And so they
    are an easy target in certain ways, especially when the reptile
    hobbyists have taken a long time to really get to this point
    and not being more proactive. But they are now.
        The presentation of these animals to me as dangerous is a
    very relative term because of the range of animals I have
    worked on. If you saw how they handled that big python, that
    animal was not handled as a dangerous animal. No one had
    control of its head. That was a big fat snake that probably
    could just barely move. There is a certain risk, but not I
    think the risk that----
        Mr. Scott. My question was, how much will it continue to
    grow and what is the limitation on growth?
        Mr. Jacobson. Without having the data to know, really, what
    is the population density and what is the prey base that is
    needed? I have heard these figures from 30,000.
        Mr. Scott. Can you explain prey base?
        Mr. Jacobson. Pardon?
        Mr. Scott. Can you explain prey base?
        Mr. Jacobson. Prey base is the food that these animals will
    feed upon, whether they are raccoons.
        Mr. Scott. So the limit on growth of the population is when
    they run out of food?
        Mr. Jacobson. Yeah.
        Mr. Ashe. Mr. Chairman, part of the concern is that the
    food for these species includes a number of animal and aquatic
    species that are listed under the Endangered Species Act. So we
    can't afford to wait until their prey base runs out because
    those are critically endangered species. As I said before, as
    the numbers of those species go down, then we have to increase
    regulation on the other parts of the Florida economy. So the
    tourism economy and other aspects of the Florida economy have
    to absorb that addition.
        Mr. Scott. Is the cat out of the bag already? If you have
    got enough of these snakes floating around, the population is
    growing, the prey base is being consumed, what can we do about
    it? How much difference would this bill make one way or the
    other since the population is already growing?
        Mr. Jacobson. They need to be worked on biologically with
    adequate money and for control. The problem with the brown tree
    snake was there wasn't adequate funding, and we put a proposal
    together as part of a biotech group in the early 1990's to USGS
    for using transgenic modern-day techniques to basically insert
    a gene into a parasite that would inhibit the reproduction of
    the brown tree snake. It was going to take 5 to 10 years to do.
    They have that project incorrectly stated in this report. And,
    unfortunately, with the review process, some things get missed.
    And our project wasn't to take a virus and manipulate that and
    kill the snake with a virus that would kill it; it was to take
    a harmless parasite and put a gene in that would shut off some
    part of its reproductive cycle. That was going to cost about $4
    million, $5 million. That was the end of the project. So it was
    not adequately funded.
        And I expect this Burmese python catastrophe in south
    Florida, unless it is funded properly, this will go on and on
    and on forever.
        Mr. Ashe. That is the point, Mr. Chairman. The idea that as
    we--we are doing things to help control this snake. We are
    expanding python capture. We are partnering with hunters. We
    are doing cooperative workshops and we are studying python
    movement and habitat. We are working on python attractants. But
    those are efforts that require taxpayer dollars. And I think
    you and Mr. Gohmert and the Members of the Committee understand
    the limitation on taxpayer dollars.
        So if we can't prevent additional invasions from happening,
    then that means the taxpayer bears the burden of this cost as
    we have to increase our efforts at controlling these invasive
    exotic species, and so the taxpayer is the one who bears the
    cost of that.
        Ms. Perry. Mr. Chairman, this legislation helps us prevent
    adding fuel to the fire for the Burmese and African pythons at
    the very, very least. It also provides us with a great
    opportunity to address the other, the entire collective group
    of nine constrictors that we already know now from USGS do pose
    a genuine risk to the environment. So it gives us an
    opportunity.
        Mr. Scott. Mr. Horne.
        Mr. Horne. The State of Florida is spending billions of
    dollars to restore the Everglades and the ecosystem that feeds
    that, and these snakes are going to actually destroy most
    everything that we are there to protect. I mean, I think that
    is inevitable. You actually heard that from Mr. Jacobson. You
    heard that they are going to eat the prey base, and when what
    we are trying to store is gone are going to have basically the
    river grass with nothing else in there. And there are numerous
    species that is there.
        We know that they can live in other places, the Louisiana
    bayou, the Okefenokee Swamp, Texas, Mississippi. We know easily
    they can be there. They don't have the same problem we have
    currently, but we have to anticipate they are going to have
    that problem based on this report, and the fact that in their
    native environment they live in the same type of climates, so
    it is only inevitable they are going to be there.
        The reason we need to do this, and we are absolutely in
    support of the nine species, we need to stop the importation of
    those. We are not going to stop the snakes from spreading. It
    is only a matter of time. And we talked earlier about storm
    events. We know that the Burmese moves dramatically when there
    has water because it is easier for them to move because of
    their size, particularly the large ones. So those water bodies
    become a conduit for them to move wherever. So a flood event,
    they are moving. They are spreading their habitat because they
    can move quickly and easily on that. So we definitely urge you
    to act on this bill.
        Mr. Scott. The gentleman from Texas.
        Mr. Gohmert. Thank you. I am curious, we keep talking about
    things like Okefenokee in Georgia. You have got Louisiana
    bayous. Texas has some areas where they might could live. But
    have any of these snakes that are under discussion here been
    found in the wild in Georgia, in Louisiana, or Texas, to your
    all's knowledge?
        Mr. Horne. We certainly know in Florida they have moved
    because we have found them us as up as Sarasota, they have been
    found in Melbourne, and basically to consider it there you need
    to find three or four or them of them, find them in the wild.
    And since they like to be in places where they have large prey
    base, they are going to be in the swamps.
        Mr. Gohmert. That is my question. I am just asking, I
    understand all of that, we covered it completely. I am just
    asking if any have been found in Georgia, Louisiana, or Texas.
        Mr. Wyatt. The answer to that question is, no. And that is
    a notable point, because these animals have existed in
    captivity in the United States for upwards of 30 years.
        Mr. Gohmert. That was another question I had. You mentioned
    that before, Mr. Wyatt, that there may be 4 million snakes that
    have been here for 30 years. What was the event 30 years ago
    that brought them to the United States?
        Mr. Wyatt. Well, they became--well, it actually goes back
    farther than that and probably as far as the early history of
    animals being brought into the United States. Dr. Elliot could
    probably better--Dr. Jacobson could probably address that
    better than I can.
        Mr. Gohmert. Why did you say 30 years ago?
        Mr. Wyatt. Well, 30 years ago is when herpetoculture, the
    hobby and science of breeding reptiles, really started to take
    shape and more interest was drawn to it. But the animals were
    first being brought in, you know, as much as 60 years ago and
    in the case of some animals even much longer ago than that.
        Mr. Gohmert. Has there ever been a python removal program
    that has been successful anywhere?
        Mr. Wyatt. It has only just begun in Florida. And a point
    there is that the greatest work done as far as actually
    proactively working to remove pythons from the Everglades has
    been done in a partnership between the State of Florida, the
    Florida Wildlife Commission and----
        Mr. Gohmert. We have been here a long time, and I am just
    going to ask you please restrict your answer to my question. I
    have zeroed in just a few answers I want, so I have facts. And
    unless somebody has answered to the contrary, then apparently
    there has not been a removal process.
        Mr. Jacobson. No. It hasn't been accomplished. And there
    are there has not been accomplished and there are only two
    snakes where there has been a really active removal program,
    and they haven't succeeded.
        Mr. Gohmert. I am also curious, and there isn't an answer
    for this. But I wondered if a snake is labeled injurious and
    this kind of action is taken, if then that may cause a
    realization that, gee, if this snake does harm to someone, then
    I may have even a heightened civil liability than I have
    otherwise. Maybe now I have a heightened incentive to release
    this snake into the wild.
        And I am just wondering, do you think that is a legislate
    concern, that passing this bill might push people to release
    snakes into the wild that they might not otherwise?
        Ms. Perry. Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that is probably
    already a problem. When we have the fatality of a 2-year-old
    girl this year in July, anyone who has a snake like this has
    got to wonder whether or not they want to keep that snake. And
    I think we shouldn't let that prevent us from getting out ahead
    of this problem.
        Mr. Gohmert. With regard to thermal imaging, since it is a
    snake, I doubt that they show up on thermal imaging. Do they?
        Mr. Jacobson. Yes, they can. They can. It depends on--we
    have done thermal imaging different reptiles. And at least in
    captivity, in the wild, too, they will go out and bask or be
    out in the sun. And so their body temperature is very highly--
    it is physiologically regulated but very dependent on the
    environment. They can get their body temperature up to, say, in
    the 90's and you will pick that up. At night it might drop down
    into the 70's or whatever. So.
        Mr. Gohmert. There is a chance it could pick it up.
        Mr. Jacobson. Yes.
        Mr. Gohmert. Okay. I was just curious. Thank you very much.
        Mr. Scott. Mr. Horne.
        Mr. Horne. The Army Corps of Engineers has actually done
    some work on the snakes in south Florida, but there has to be a
    pretty dramatic temperature variance for them to see them, and
    they actually used a drone plane with some imaging equipment on
    it and they actually did find them. But it has to be on a day
    when there is a dramatic change in the weather, which is not
    something we typically have in Florida. So it makes it
    difficult there.
        Ms. Perry. Can I address the previous question? You asked
    if these snakes are found in the wild in other States. And
    there is sort of a distinction between whether they are found
    and breeding and established, or just found in the wild because
    they escaped. And I would point you to our testimony which has
    this list of incidents just in August of this year. In Oregon,
    California, Missouri, Utah, there are incidents of snakes being
    found in the wild in the sense that they are out and loose. And
    obviously, over the course of a summer, a snake could survive
    if the temperatures allowed it to and could cause serious
    incidents.
        Mr. Jacobson. When I was growing up as a child, there were
    people I knew had snakes that escaped in the neighborhood,
    either killed or never seen again. And so there are snake
    escapes in probably every major city in the country, and in
    airports there have been examples.
        Mr. Scott. Thank you very much. I would like to thank all
    of our witnesses for their testimony today. Members may have
    additional written questions which we will forward to you, and
    ask that you answer as promptly as possible so that the answers
    may be made part of the record. The hearing record will remain
    open for 1 week for the submission of additional materials.
        Without objection, we will submit into the record letters
    from the Pet Industry Joint Advisory Council, Dr. Kenneth
    Crisco, Senior Biological Scientist, Division of Herpetology,
    Florida Museum of Natural History University of Florida, the
    Wildlife Society, the Gourmet Rodent Pet Store.
        Mr. Jacobson. It employs 70 people and makes about $4
    million a year.
        Mr. Scott. And we have requested that their letters and
    written testimony be entered into the record of the hearing.
        Without objection, the Subcommittee now stands adjourned.
        [Whereupon, at 12:25 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]
                                A P P E N D I X

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                   Material Submitted for the Hearing Record