[House Hearing, 111 Congress] [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office] HIGH-SPEED RAIL IN THE UNITED STATES: OPPORTUNITIES AND CHALLENGES ======================================================================= (111-69) HEARING BEFORE THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON RAILROADS, PIPELINES, AND HAZARDOUS MATERIALS OF THE COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION AND INFRASTRUCTURE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ONE HUNDRED ELEVENTH CONGRESS FIRST SESSION __________ October 14, 2009 __________ Printed for the use of the Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 52-847 PDF WASHINGTON : 2009 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: toll free (866) 512-1800; DC area (202) 512-1800 Fax: (202) 512-2104 Mail: Stop IDCC, Washington, DC 20402-0001 COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION AND INFRASTRUCTURE JAMES L. OBERSTAR, Minnesota, Chairman NICK J. RAHALL, II, West Virginia, JOHN L. MICA, Florida Vice Chair DON YOUNG, Alaska PETER A. DeFAZIO, Oregon THOMAS E. PETRI, Wisconsin JERRY F. COSTELLO, Illinois HOWARD COBLE, North Carolina ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of JOHN J. DUNCAN, Jr., Tennessee Columbia VERNON J. EHLERS, Michigan JERROLD NADLER, New York FRANK A. LoBIONDO, New Jersey CORRINE BROWN, Florida JERRY MORAN, Kansas BOB FILNER, California GARY G. MILLER, California EDDIE BERNICE JOHNSON, Texas HENRY E. BROWN, Jr., South GENE TAYLOR, Mississippi Carolina ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland TIMOTHY V. JOHNSON, Illinois LEONARD L. BOSWELL, Iowa TODD RUSSELL PLATTS, Pennsylvania TIM HOLDEN, Pennsylvania SAM GRAVES, Missouri BRIAN BAIRD, Washington BILL SHUSTER, Pennsylvania RICK LARSEN, Washington JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas MICHAEL E. CAPUANO, Massachusetts SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West TIMOTHY H. BISHOP, New York Virginia MICHAEL H. MICHAUD, Maine JIM GERLACH, Pennsylvania RUSS CARNAHAN, Missouri MARIO DIAZ-BALART, Florida GRACE F. NAPOLITANO, California CHARLES W. DENT, Pennsylvania DANIEL LIPINSKI, Illinois CONNIE MACK, Florida MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii LYNN A WESTMORELAND, Georgia JASON ALTMIRE, Pennsylvania JEAN SCHMIDT, Ohio TIMOTHY J. WALZ, Minnesota CANDICE S. MILLER, Michigan HEATH SHULER, North Carolina MARY FALLIN, Oklahoma MICHAEL A. ARCURI, New York VERN BUCHANAN, Florida HARRY E. MITCHELL, Arizona ROBERT E. LATTA, Ohio CHRISTOPHER P. CARNEY, Pennsylvania BRETT GUTHRIE, Kentucky JOHN J. HALL, New York ANH ``JOSEPH'' CAO, Louisiana STEVE KAGEN, Wisconsin AARON SCHOCK, Illinois STEVE COHEN, Tennessee PETE OLSON, Texas LAURA A. RICHARDSON, California ALBIO SIRES, New Jersey DONNA F. EDWARDS, Maryland SOLOMON P. ORTIZ, Texas PHIL HARE, Illinois JOHN A. BOCCIERI, Ohio MARK H. SCHAUER, Michigan BETSY MARKEY, Colorado PARKER GRIFFITH, Alabama MICHAEL E. McMAHON, New York THOMAS S. P. PERRIELLO, Virginia DINA TITUS, Nevada HARRY TEAGUE, New Mexico VACANCY (ii) SUBCOMMITTEE ON RAILROADS, PIPELINES, AND HAZARDOUS MATERIALS CORRINE BROWN, Florida Chairwoman DINA TITUS, Nevada BILL SHUSTER, Pennylvania HARRY TEAGUE, New Mexico THOMAS E. PETRI, Wisconsin NICK J. RAHALL II, West Virginia JERRY MORAN, Kansas JERROLD NADLER, New York GARY G. MILLER, California ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland HENRY E. BROWN, Jr., South GRACE F. NAPOLITANO, California Carolina JASON ALTMIRE, Pennsylvania TIMOTHY V. JOHNSON, Illinois TIMOTHY J. WALZ, Minnesota SAM GRAVES, Missouri MICHAEL A. ARCURI, New York JIM GERLACH, Pennsylvania CHRISTOPHER P. CARNEY, Pennsylvania CHARLES W. DENT, Pennsylvania ALBIO SIRES, New Jersey LYNN A. WESTMORELND, Georgia MARK H. SCHAUER, Michigan JEAN SCHMIDT, Ohio BETSY MARKEY, Colorado CANDICE S. MILLER, Michigan MICHAEL E. McMAHON, New York VERN BUCHANAN, Florida THOMAS S. P. PERRIELLO, Virginia ROBERT E. LATTA, Ohio PETER A. DeFAZIO, Oregon BRETT GUTHRIE, Kentucky JERRY F. COSTELLO, Illinois AARON SCHOCK, Illinois BOB FILNER, California ANH ``JOSEPH'' CAO, Louisiana EDDIE BERNICE JOHNSON, Texas PETE OLSON, Texas LEONARD L. BOSWELL, Iowa RICK LARSEN, Washington MICHAEL H. MICHAUD, Maine DANIEL LIPINSKI, Illinois STEVE COHEN, Tennessee LAURA A. RICHARDSON, California JAMES L. OBERSTAR, Minnesota (ex officio) (iii) CONTENTS Page Summary of Subject Matter........................................ vii TESTIMONY Baugh, Robert, Executive Director of the Industrial Union Council, AFL-CIO............................................... 39 Busalacchi, Honorable Frank, Secretary, Wisconsin Department of Transportation and Chair, States for Passenger Rail Coalition.. 12 Carper, Thomas, Chairman of the Board, National Railroad Passenger Corporation, AMTRAK.................................. 39 Fleming, Susan, Director, Government Accountability Office....... 12 Hamberger, Edward, President, Association of American Railroads.. 39 Pracht, Michael P., President And CEO, US RailCar, LLC........... 39 Rubio, Nicolas, President, Cintra, US............................ 39 Scardelletti, Robert, President Transportation Communications International Union............................................ 39 Simmons, Patrick, Rail Division Director, North Carolina Department of Transportation, on Behalf of American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials.................. 12 Szabo, Honorable Joseph C., Administrator, Federal Railroad Administration, U.S. Department of Transportation.............. 12 Todorovich, Petra, Director, America 2050........................ 39 PREPARED STATEMENTS SUBMITTED BY MEMBERS OF CONGRESS Johnson, Hon. Eddie Bernice, of Texas............................ 66 Richardson, Hon. Laura, of California............................ 72 PREPARED STATEMENTS SUBMITTED BY WITNESSES Baugh, Robert.................................................... 75 Busalacchi, Honorable Frank...................................... 89 Carper, Thomas................................................... 101 Fleming, Susan................................................... 126 Hamberger, Edward................................................ 138 Pracht, Michael P................................................ 148 Rubio, Nicolas................................................... 163 Scardelletti, Robert............................................. 171 Simmons, Patrick................................................. 180 Szabo, Honorable Joseph C........................................ 190 Todorovich, Petra................................................ 238 SUBMISSIONS FOR THE RECORD Baugh, Robert, Executive Director of the Industrial Union Council, AFL-CIO, responses to questions from Rep. Corrine Brown, a Representative in Congress from the State of Florida.. 81 Busalacchi, Honorable Frank, Secretary, Wisconsin Department of Transportation and Chair, States for Passenger Rail Coalition, responses to questions from Rep. Corrine Brown, a Representative in Congress from the State of Florida........... 97 Carper, Thomas, Chairman of the Board, National Railroad Passenger Corporation, AMTRAK:................................. Responses to questions from Rep. Corrine Brown, a Representative in Congress from the State of Florida..... 116 Responses to questions from Rep. Michael E. McMahon, a Representative in Congress from the State of New York.... 122 Fleming, Susan, Director, Government Accountability Office:...... Responses to questions from Rep. Corrine Brown, a Representative in Congress from the State of Florida..... 134 Response to question from Rep. Grace Napolitano, a Representative in Congress from the State of California.. 33 Hamberger, Edward, President, Association of American Railroads, responses to questions from the Subcommittee................... 146 Pracht, Michael P., President And CEO, US RailCar, LLC:.......... Press release.............................................. 158 Responses to questions from Rep. Corrine Brown, a Representative in Congress from the State of Florida..... 160 Scardelletti, Robert, President Transportation Communications International Union, responses to questions from the Subcommittee................................................... 178 Simmons, Patrick, Rail Division Director, North Carolina Department of Transportation, on Behalf of American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials, responses to questions from Rep. Corrine Brown, a Representative in Congress from the State of Florida...................................... 187 Szabo, Honorable Joseph C., Administrator, Federal Railroad Administration, U.S. Department of Transportation:............. Letter from the Capitol Corridor, Joint Powers Authority, Jim Holmes, Chair........................................ 225 Responses to questions from Rep. Corrine Brown, a Representative in Congress from the State of Florida..... 226 Responses to questions from Rep. John L. Mica, a Representative in Congress from the State of Florida..... 235 Todorovich, Petra, Director, America 2050, responses to questions from Rep. Corrine Brown, a Representative in Congress from the State of Florida............................................... 251 ADDITIONS TO THE RECORD Siemens, Oliver Huck, President, letter to the Subcommittee...... 254 [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] HEARING ON HIGH-SPEED RAIL IN THE UNITED STATES: OPPORTUNITIES AND CHALLENGES ---------- Wednesday, October 14, 2009, House of Representatives, Subcommittee on Railroads, Pipelines and Hazardous Materials, Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure, Washington, DC. The Subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 2:00 p.m., in Room 2167, Rayburn House Office Building, the Honorable Corrine Brown [Chairwoman of the Subcommittee] presiding. Ms. Brown. Will the Subcommittee on Railroads, Pipelines, and Hazardous Materials come to order? This is a wonderful time; we have standing room only. The Subcommittee is meeting today to hear testimony on high-speed rail in the United States. The dream of high-speed rail in America is finally coming true. In 2007, this Subcommittee held a hearing to listen to the experiences of international operators and other countries in developing high- speed rail. Their advice was to invest, get a high-speed rail line operational, and once everyone saw it working they would want it for themselves. In other words, build it and they will come. The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 laid the foundation. It included $8 billion for high-speed rail and $1.3 billion for Amtrak. The Fiscal Year 2010 Appropriations bill that passed the House included an additional $4 billion, and the surface transportation bill being developed by this Committee includes another $50 billion for development of high- speed rail corridors over the next six years. Since enactment of the Recovery Act, interest in high-speed rail has been phenomenal. The Federal Railroad Administration has received numerous applications from the States for development of high-speed and intercity passenger rail projects. These include 45 applications from 24 States totaling $50 billion. They also received 214 applications from 34 States totaling $7 billion for corridor planning and small projects. I would just like to caution the Federal Railroad Administration that you choose two to three systems that will truly work. If you spend the money around in too many systems, the money will not work the way it is supposed to, and I don't want to see bridges to nowhere when it comes to high-speed rail. We really want a system that works. These numerous requests clearly indicate a very strong and growing interest in high-speed rail in the United States. They also make clear that the Federal Government needs to invest in high-speed rail in order to make the President and this Congress' vision a reality, and we need to find a dedicated source of funding to do it. The private sector, including international operators, and foreign governments like Spain, Japan, and China aren't going to help us if they don't see a true commitment from the Federal Government to make high-speed rail a priority. Beijing will spend $50 billion on high-speed rail this year alone, and the central government plans to spend another $250 billion over the next decade. By 2020, China will have laid nearly 16,000 miles of high-speed track capable of carrying the fastest trains in the world. So far, the construction of the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed route alone has created about 110,000 jobs and is playing an enormous role in China's economic recovery. I know that the U.S. faces major challenges that aren't faced by China's central government, but it shows that one of our main international competitors is making high-speed rail a key component of their economic development and recovery. We need to give credit where credit is due, and I want to personally thank President Obama for his vision, and Vice President Biden for his longstanding commitment to rail in the U.S. For eight years we battled the Bush Administration's zeroing out funding for rail, and it is a refreshing change to have real leadership in the White House that supports rail. Finally, I believe that one great opportunity that will come from this new funding will be the ability to establish a domestic manufacturing base for high-speed rail right here in the United States. Since 1998, the U.S. has lost nearly six million manufacturing jobs. We should seize this opportunity and find ways to incentivize production right here in America. We can work on replacing many of the manufacturing jobs that have disappeared in this Country with well paying jobs building new locomotive and passenger railcars to be used in America and sold to other countries throughout the world. With sustained funding for high-speed rail and a strong commitment from the Federal Government, our State partners, and other stakeholders, I am convinced that the United States can once again build passenger rail rolling stock that will be the envy of the world. With that, I welcome today's panelists and thank you for joining us. I am looking forward to hearing and the testimony. Before I yield Mr. Shuster, I ask Members to be given 14 days to revise and extend their remarks, and to permit the submission of additional statements and materials for Members and witnesses. Without objection, so ordered. I yield to Mr. Shuster for his opening statement. Mr. Shuster. Thank you very much. As the Chairwoman pointed out, we have a standing room only crowd here today, which is obviously an indication of the importance and the great interest that there is in this town and this Country with high-speed rail. I also want to welcome my colleague from Ohio and good friend, Mr. Tiberi. Thanks for being here to introduce one of our panelists. I also welcome everybody else that is here today. Since the passage of the Rail Investment and Improvement Act was signed into law a year ago Friday, high-speed rail has emerged as a central issue on the transportation planning of this Country and, in consensus, high-speed rail should be a part of the national transportation strategy. It is a long time coming, but with the support of the Administration and strong bipartisan agreement in Congress and this Committee, the stage is finally set for high-speed rail in the United States. Still, there are may questions about just how high-speed rail is going to be implemented in the United States. DOT and FRA control the dispersal of huge amounts of money. I would like to learn more about how they are planning to distribute the $8 billion that was appropriated for high-speed rail in the stimulus. It cannot be overstated how important these decisions will be in the future of high-speed rail. If the funds are spread too thinly among the $57 billion worth of applications, as the Chair alluded to the award, in too many different places, I fear that they may end up failing to focus on developing a few key high-speed lines that will improve the value of this initiative, leading not more investment. The second point I would like to make is that I believe we should be looking for projects that leverage non-Federal funds. We need to make sure the private sector is involved, along with commitments from States and local governments, in order to fully leverage Federal investment. I am interested in hearing how the FRA is planning and evaluating the funding sources for projects that are being considered for grants, and I look forward to hearing from the witnesses on how they see private partnerships working in the context of high-speed rail. The final point I would like to make is that we need to ensure that high-speed rail does not have a negative impact on the national freight rail network. Our freight rail system is the best in the world. Some of the plans that have emerged from high-speed rail involve running faster trains on track that is currently used for freight operations. We need to ensure that we have explored any possible detrimental impacts to freight operations posed by trains running faster than the current 79 miles per hour, the top speed, on hosted tracks. Again, I am very pleased with the progress we have made in a very short time, but we have already reached a critical juncture for high-speed rail in the United States and we must ensure that this large stimulus investment generates real results. We can't afford to misstep. We are already falling behind the rest of the world in developing high-speed systems. China is spending $300 billion to develop 8,000 miles of new high-speed track by 2020. That is enough rail to go from here to Los Angeles three times over. Amazingly, the Chinese budget for high-speed rail in 2009 is $50 billion. We must continue to work together to keep momentum going. I want to thank all of you again for being here. I am going to have to excuse myself; I am going back to Pennsylvania. It is Senior Night at Hollidaysburg High School. My son is a senior player on the soccer team, so I have to be there. And since I haven't been getting many headlines in the paper and he has been on the sports page weekly in the headlines, I figure I ought to keep the perception people think that their Congressman is a soccer player. So I have to head up to Pennsylvania. So I am very sorry I have to leave, but duty calls in Pennsylvania, so thank you very much. I yield back. Ms. Brown. Congresswoman Napolitano? Mrs. Napolitano. Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you for holding this very critical meeting, especially for the State of California. We, of course, are in the throws of evaluating high-speed rail in California, which was bonded and approved by California voters recently. In my area, the high-speed rail would go through quite a few portions of my district. There would be two tracks that would have to be going through, the Los Angeles-San Diego corridor, there would be an NSF line with a stop in Norwalk, where I reside; and in the Alameda corridor, East Corridor, the New Pacific Line with a stop in the City of Pomona. There are concerns that I have about high-speed rail. First of all, that the State does not divert any funds that are already committed to mass public transit in the State of California going to the high-speed rail. We have discussed these in many hearings and meetings in California with some of the proponents and some of the councils of government who have concerns over this. High-speed rail cannot work without a good transit system in place, and it is expensive. I still am for mass transit; I will continue to fight for being able to move masses that go to work and seniors. I have no--how would I say?--axe to grind with the high-speed rail, love to see it, and I am sure I will be working on that with our leadership in California, how to work collaboratively with our councils of government and with our city so that this can become a reality. My concern is for the local communities and their safety impact and noise impact, the road congestion impact, and, of course, the issue of eminent domain, which, in California--I don't know about other States--is a dirty word. You don't talk eminent domain. This is something that people will not allow, will not tolerate. And, of course, the impact on freight and regional passenger rail, the high-speed rail will take away from the current freight and regional passenger rail corridors because it will need a dedicated rail and may go alongside the current system. Would this take goods movement and put it on a highway that is already congested? Will the railroads cooperate in high- speed rail projects? Those are all concerns that have been brought to me by my residents and also concerns of mine. So, with that, thank you, Madam Chair. I yield back. Ms. Brown. I yield to the Ranking Member and my colleague from Florida, Mr. Mica. Mr. Mica. Thank you and thank you for conducting this hearing on high-speed rail and its future in the United States. I think this is a very timely hearing. We are on the verge, hopefully, of entering the era of high-speed rail. The United States is a third world country when it comes to high-speed transportation systems. I was pleased to work with my colleagues in passing the first rail passenger reauthorization in 11 years, which we did the last few months of the Bush Administration, and the President then signed the legislation that not only included reforms and reauthorization for Amtrak, but rail safety, also a strong provision to promote high-speed rail. Was pleased when the Obama Administration came forward and the President himself injected himself--it wasn't any Member of Congress--but committed to a substantial investment, $8 billion, which we now have available. We do have a slight delay in awarding of those grants and, in a way, I am pleased that all three now are going to be, I think, awarded at once, rather than dribble this and drabble this thing out. But it is important that that money be expended on what I consider true high-speed rail. I don't want this high-speed rail effort hijacked and we cannot take people's money and spend it and not give them what others take for granted in Europe and Asia as far as high-speed rail. Right now, some of the average speeds--I have a little clip here. Put that clip up here. This will just take a second. This is high-speed rail. This is a TGV train in France and it is going 186 miles per hour. That is high-speed. Ms. Brown just said she has been on it. I was on high-speed rail in Spain, and in Spain the AVE service routinely travels at 186 miles per hour, and the Shinkansen bullet train in Japan, 164 miles per hour. I will just put up the little photograph for contrast. Where is my little contrast? Okay, this is Acela. Now, put your tray tables in an upright position. [Laughter.] Mr. Mica. Secure your seatbelts. You are going to go forward at 83 miles an hour. This is not high-speed rail. Spending $10 billion and getting it up to 89 miles an hour is not high-speed service. So I don't want funds hijacked. I think we also have to look at the corridors in the United States that deserve service. First of all, Amtrak, the only corridor it owns in the United States, it owns about 98 percent of it, from Washington to New York and then on to Boston, what, 400-some miles? That is the only corridor that they own, 24, 25,000 miles, whatever. The balance of what Amtrak runs service on is freight rail. These systems are very expensive. Eight billion sounds like a lot. Mr. Oberstar and I committed to $50 billion authorization in the next surface transportation bill. Still sounds like a lot, but listen to this. In Japan, the Shinkansen high speed system is being expanded by 400 miles with a total estimated cost of $40 billion. In Spain, a country about the size of Oregon, the government is committed to a national high- speed rail network that will cost $140 billion. So it takes big money to do these projects. The benefits in the northeast corridor are immense, and I am telling you that I will raise the roof on the Capitol Building if we do not develop high-speed rail in the northeast corridor. Not only will it serve some of the densest population in the United States; it will help us with our aviation delays. Eighty-three percent of the chronically delayed flights in the United States emanated from New York and that airspace, the northeast airspace. So we have to have a concerted effort not to fool people and say we are putting in high-speed rail; we have to have real high-speed service that travels at last competitively; 150 used to be the standard, now you are looking at 160, 180 around the world. So I wanted to come today and make that statement. And if you know me and you know Ms. Brown, we are rather tenacious and we will get it done. So I urge labor, I urge people who have money to invest to work with us. We do need to leverage money. There is no need to put all Federal cash out; we can take a small amount of money, you will hear, and leverage it; $1 of Federal money and we can match it with $8 of private sector investment if we do this the right thing and get real high- speed service where we need it the most. I am pleased to yield back the balance of my time. Ms. Brown. Thank you, Mr. Mica. And now everybody can see what true bipartisanship is all about. Mr. Perry? Mr. Perry. Thank you. I would really like to echo a lot of the concerns and the hopes that have been raised. High-speed rail is really a game changer for this Country. We have been watching as we lose competitive advantage globally, and certainly part of that has been because of an under-investment in infrastructure; our inability to move items, but also to move people; increased lost time from work and other things. This is a chance for us to look for those game changers through the high-speed rail system, and we are not going to get that many bites at this. So while we all have, certainly, our own parochial interests in this, I am very interested in seeing this thing pass through southern Virginia. What is most important is that we match the dollars to regional and national priorities; that we are looking at ways to put the most investments, the most dollars into the areas of greatest need, whether that is of congestion or areas of the Country that we can open up. So certainly the corridor stretching from Charlotte, and maybe even Atlanta, up to D.C. is of great interest. I think there has been increasing cooperation between States, which is encouraging, so that we can build on some of the lessons that have been learned and other things. Right now, in this economic crisis, you can look around the world and see countries that are focused on where they were 20 years and those that are focused on where they could be 20 years from now. We have heard some of the staggering numbers of investments that other countries are making in high-speed rail and related infrastructure investments. We are not matching that. At a time that we have already seen manufacturing and other jobs go overseas, this is a chance, this is a moment for us to really reinvent our comparative advantage, and I think high-speed rail done right can be a component of that. I think we are stewards of this moment. If we can figure out how to use these dollars effectively and efficiently, I think the American people will continue to support more work in this area. If we blow it, to be honest, that interest will not be there. So I hope we will take full advantage of this moment to make the most of this and really present some game changers on the competitive advantage side. With that, I yield back. Ms. Brown. Thank you. Mr. Cao? Mr. Cao. Thank you, Madam Chair, for holding this important hearing today. I have to say that I am a very big supporter of the high-speed rail project and I believe that high-speed rail is part of the solution for modernizing transportation in the United States. Too many communities are on the verge of a level of connectivity that would bring together economic opportunity while at the same time reduce impacts on our environment. This is especially the case in Louisiana, where we have been working on developing a rail system for decades. Local, State, and Federal officials, particularly between our major corridor of Baton Rouge and New Orleans, realize the economic significance a multi-State southern rail corridor would bring to our area. The proposed project of the southern corridor would extend from Houston, Texas through Baton Rouge, through New Orleans, to Atlanta, and I believe that this project will provide a huge economic boost to the region, as well as to the great city of New Orleans that I represent. I was thoroughly disappointed when my State failed to file a track 2 application this past month. We worked very hard to secure the support for the project. We worked to get the municipal governments, as well as the parish governments, to support the rail project at a time when the State does not have the money to do so. But besides that particular fact, I hope that there will be future and continuous funding for the high- speed rail project because I believe in this development and I fully support the implementation, as well as the expansion, of other projects in areas that are in need of high-speed rail. Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Ms. Brown. Ms. Markey? Ms. Markey. Yes. Thank you, Madam Chair, for holding this important meeting. I also do believe that high-speed rail is an integral part of this Nation's future. I have joined several of my House and Senate western colleagues in supporting a high-speed intercity passenger rail program grant application that would conduct a feasibility study for a high-speed rail corridor between El Paso, Texas, and Denver, Colorado. If you look at a map of the designated corridors, the intermountain west, which is growing rapidly--a lot of our population growth in this Country is in the west-- but the intermountain west is completely left out of the high- speed rail system. And in a region with burgeoning development and population, a high-speed rail corridor would provide for both efficient and environmentally friendly transportation options as we continue to develop in this area. Currently, going from El Paso to Denver, a traveler must first go either to Los Angeles or Chicago and change trains. The existing rail lines in the area--the California Zephyr, Sunset Limited, and Southwest Chief--could be connected by a north-south high-speed rail corridor. High-speed rail in both the west and in other parts of the Country has great potential to spur both job creation and economic growth. I look forward to hearing from our witnesses today and further discussing the potential that high-speed rail holds for the Nation. Thank you again very much. I yield back, Madam Chair. Ms. Brown. Mr. Schauer. Mr. Schauer. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for holding this hearing. I was very pleased to have an opportunity to serve on this Subcommittee, primarily for the purpose of advancing high-speed rail as a national priority. I was also proud to support the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act that included an unprecedented investment in high-speed rail in this Country. I represent the State of Michigan; in the State legislature worked on supporting Amtrak and passenger rail, and even supported the Midwest high-speed rail strategy. Fortunately, my State has been a leader and the Midwestern States, including Michigan, have submitted an aggressive application for high- speed rail stimulus dollars. My district, which is southern Michigan, includes two Amtrak lines, which both would be converted into high-speed rail lines; one is the Wolverine line, which goes from Ann Arbor on the eastern part of my district through Battle Creek on the western part of my district on the way to Chicago. The other is the Blue Water line that originates in Port Huron, goes through Battle Creek and Eaton County to, ultimately, Chicago. This is a jobs issue for my State and for our Country. We will put people to work and spur economic activity. We will immediately put people to work through improving our tracks, our signaling, and our rail infrastructure. We will put people to work by building high-speed rail engines, cars, and, in Michigan, I hope we can at least build components for those. We will provide an economic boost to communities along those high- speed rail lines, like many, and some of which I have mentioned already in my testimony. And this hasn't been said. Investing in high-speed rail sends all the right signals to knowledge-based workers in those knowledge-based jobs we are working hard to create, and to new technology knowledge-based companies that we are creating throughout the Country and we are creating in my district in Michigan. So I am very excited about the testimony we are about to hear and the steps we can take to invest in high-speed rail in this Country, and I yield back, Madam Chair. Thank you. Ms. Brown. Thank you. Ms. Richardson, and then we will proceed. Ms. Richardson? Ms. Richardson. Thank you, Madam Chair. First of all, I would like to say, for those who are here present, that they should know that our Chairwoman, no one advocates harder and stronger on rail issues in this United States Congress than Chairwoman Brown, whether it is talking about stimulus or wherever it is. Even just with Secretary Napolitano she was advocating on this issue. So we should know that we are in good hands and she is helping us move forward into the future. Let me say that the United States has fallen tragically behind in the development of high-speed rail. While we consider $8 billion was put in the stimulus and many of us were surprised and excited about it, as has been reported, it is alarming when you consider our other neighboring countries when you look at Europe. Just recently this year, I had an opportunity in South America to ride on the high-speed rail, and it is really embarrassing to be an American citizen where we lack this basic form of transportation. While we were excited and jumped up and down about $8 billion, when you consider, for example, China intends upon investing $730 billion--that is, again, $730 billion--by 2012, we have a much longer way to go. High-speed rail will, yes, assist us; it will help us with travel; but it will also help us with jobs, as some of my colleagues have alluded to. But it will also help us with air quality, congestion relief on our roadways and in our skies, reducing greenhouse emissions, and it will, most importantly, enhance the mobility for people living. Now, just on October 9, 2009, The Wall Street Journal had a report and it was listing information from the Brookings Institute talking about considering the Country's busiest air routes and a call for high-speed rail, and on that, the State that I am from, California, three key sections were listed in that top ten. Consider 6 million people fly between Los Angeles basin and San Francisco basin each year. This is something that we cannot wait; we must make the investment. I don't want to hear anything about a second stimulus; we need to put the money into our roads and our infrastructure and get people moving. So I welcome the discussion today and I welcome us taking big steps forward. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. Ms. Brown. Thank you. As I indicated, there is a lot of interest. Mr. Teague? Mr. Teague. Yes, thank you, Madam Chairwoman, for holding this meeting and letting me speak here. I just want to concur with everyone else here about how important I think it is that we have high-speed rail to remain competitive and also for our national security. But I especially would like to associate myself with the remarks made by Ms. Markey from Colorado, because I think it is terribly important that we have the rail service between El Paso through Las Cruces and Santa Fe, New Mexico to Denver. As has happened so many times in the past with the interstate system and communication systems, I am scared that the intermountain region will be left out and not have much chance to participate. I think that it is very important not only that we have it for the Country, but especially for the intermountain region north out of El Paso. Thank you. Ms. Brown. Thank you. Now, the last one, Mr. McMahon. Mr. McMahon. Thank you, Chairwoman Brown and Ranking Member Shuster. Thank you for holding this hearing on clearly what is to all of us an important issue. And, of course, to the Chairman of the overall Committee, Chairman Oberstar, thank you for your continued leadership in helping us get the infrastructure and transportation of America back to where we have to get it. As many of you know, I represent Staten Island and Brooklyn, New York, and each week I travel by Amtrak back to my district from Washington. I consider myself lucky to be able to do that. Rail is no doubt the fastest, most energy efficient, environmentally responsible way to travel between our larger cities; it takes cars off the roads and helps relieve air and traffic congestion. It is reliable and relatively comfortable. Amtrak has made great strides in upgrading the northeast corridor and other lines throughout the Country, but we are far, far behind the rest of the world when it comes to high- speed rail and it is time for that to change. We need only to look to our competitors in Europe and Japan and in China to see the possibilities that high-speed rail can bring to our own economy and to the convenience of passenger travel in the United States. Think about it, we have the technology to make trains run at a speed of over 200 miles an hour. At that speed, it would take just over an hour to get from Washington, D.C. to the heart of New York City. Japan and Europe have had high-speed trains for decades, but we are now just starting to get in the game. China is in the process of building a train line, scheduled to be ready by 2013, that can travel between Beijing and Shanghai in less than four hours, even though the distance is almost 700 miles. America does not need to settle for a second rate rail network. America deserves the best passenger rail network in the world, and we can do our part in Congress to make this a priority. Both the 2008 Passenger Rail Initiative and Improvement Act and the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act that we passed in February of this year made some strong down payments for high-speed rail. The $8 billion provided in the Recovery Act is a great start, but we to think much more strategically about the benefits of high-speed rail and what it can bring to the Nation as a whole and make our investments accordingly. So I commend you, Chairwoman Brown and Chairman Oberstar, for your tireless advocacy to give our Country a truly first- class integrated high-speed rail transportation network. The proposed framework for the reauthorization of the surface T- bill will provide $50 billion for high-speed bill, which would help us catch up to where we should be. We look forward to working with you all under your leadership, Chairwoman Brown, and all of our colleagues to give America a top-notch high- speed rail system. Thank you. Ms. Brown. Before we go on, the Chair, Mr. Oberstar, of the full Committee, would like to make remarks. Mr. Oberstar. Just briefly to compliment you, Chairwoman Brown, whom I call Ms. Amtrak. She led an unrelenting effort during the years when Amtrak was faced with bankruptcy budgets to keep Amtrak funding alive, did a Harry Truman style whistlestop tour on Amtrak trains to generate support for Amtrak, and her continuing efforts in the Committee as Chair of this Subcommittee are just extraordinary, and we are grateful to you. That is why we are at a point where we can have a hearing on high-speed rail on developments that will happen; not that may happen, but that will happen. I also want to thank Mr. Mica, who has been a long-time strong advocate for high-speed rail, whether it was Maglev or TGV or Talgo technology. He has been a champion and he was a principle reason we are able to get the Amtrak authorization bill through to signature by President Bush in the last Congress, for which I will always be mindful. But just one thought. This is back to the future. Back to 75 years ago, when trains traveled faster moving passengers than they do today. We have to do better than that. That the Burlington Railroad--it wasn't called that in the time--but their Zephyr trains and the Chicago and Northwestern trains moved between the Twin Cities in Chicago at over a mile a minute. There were passenger trains steam powered that moved at 100 miles an hour. There was the Pioneer Zephyr that set a speed record between Chicago and Denver, 1,015 miles, in 13 hours and 5 minutes, 77 miles an hour. The standard we are setting today is 79 miles an hour as the threshold. That is an ion ago; that is when I was born, for gosh sakes. We ought to do better. That is why we are here and I thank the witnesses and I thank the Members for their support. Ms. Brown. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Now, before we introduce the first panel, I want to thank Mr. Tiberi for being here at this hearing this afternoon. You want to introduce one of our witnesses. Mr. Tiberi. Thank you, Chairwoman Brown and Chairman Oberstar, Mr. Mica, and Members of the Subcommittee for allowing me to testify before you today for the purposes of introducing Mr. Michael Pracht, President and CEO of US Railcar. I applaud you for including Mr. Pracht as part of the hearing today. He has years of experience in the rail industry. In addition, his company represents the future of railcar manufacturing in the United States. US Railcar is considering proposing to build a diesel multiple unit manufacturing facility in Gahanna, Ohio, in the heart of the congressional district that I represent. It would be the first of its kind in the United States and would represent an historic opportunity for the United States. The facility would bring new jobs to Ohio. As Congress continues to discuss the opportunities and challenges of expanding passenger rail infrastructure, we must also discuss how to establish a railcar manufacturing base in our Country. I am proud of the work being done by Mr. Pracht and US Railcar to achieve this role, and thank you for giving me the opportunity, Madam Chair, for introducing Mr. Pracht before you today. Thank you. Ms. Brown. Thank you. Thank you for your patience. Now the first panel, please. Thank you and thank you for your patience. I am pleased to introduce our first panel of witnesses. We are starting out with Mr. Joseph Szabo, who is the Administrator of the Federal Railroad Administration. We have Ms. Susan Fleming, Director of Government Accountability Office; Mr. Patrick Simmons, who is the Rail Division Director of the North Carolina Department of Transportation. He is testifying on behalf of the American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials. And Secretary Busalacchi, Secretary of the Wisconsin Department of Transportation, on behalf of the States for Passenger Rail Coalition. Welcome, and we will start with Mr. Szabo. Good seeing you again. TESTIMONY OF THE HONORABLE JOSEPH C. SZABO, ADMINISTRATOR, FEDERAL RAILROAD ADMINISTRATION, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION; SUSAN FLEMING, DIRECTOR, GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE; THE HONORABLE FRANK BUSALACCHI, SECRETARY, WISCONSIN DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION AND CHAIR, STATES FOR PASSENGER RAIL COALITION; AND PATRICK SIMMONS, RAIL DIVISION DIRECTOR, NORTH CAROLINA DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION, ON BEHALF OF AMERICAN ASSOCIATION OF STATE HIGHWAY AND TRANSPORTATION OFFICIALS Mr. Szabo. Good to see you. Chairwoman Brown, Ranking Member Shuster, and Members of the Subcommittee, I am honored to appear here today to discuss one of the most significant initiatives of the President, Vice President, and Secretary, the development of high-speed rail in America. This initiative builds upon the foundation laid last year by Congress in the Passenger Rail Investment and Improvement Act. Our Federal investment in transportation over the last 60 years has been focused primarily on highways, aviation, and transit. Investment in high-speed rail is an opportunity to bring balance to our transportation network. Many States have been engaged in planning for rail while they have waited for a Federal partner. When FRA took pre- applications from the States to gage interest in our rail program, we heard from 40 States and the District of Columbia with projects exceeding $103 billion, and interest was from every region of the Country. Discussions of high-speed rail tend to begin with the fundamental question: What is high-speed rail? Is it peak speed, say, 200 miles per hour? We need to remember that we are about moving people, not just moving trains, so top speed is not necessarily the end-all. I prefer a more market-oriented definition, and that is rail service that cost-effectively provides trip times that are superior to auto or air in a given market. So making high-speed rail a reality, we need to be talking about a range of speed and investment options that each has their own sets of opportunities and challenges. The President's vision is to invest in efficient high-speed passenger rail networks of 100 to 600 mile corridors that connect communities and regions across America. This aligns well with the DOT's strategic goals that ensure safe and efficient transportation choices, promote energy efficiency and environmental quality, build a foundation for economic competitiveness, and support interconnected livable communities. But while the potential for high-speed rail is great in achieving these goals, so are the challenges in delivering on that potential. Challenge number one: sustainability and managing expectations. We are committed to making sure the $8 billion are spent wisely, on the very best projects that produce real results. The goal is to ensure the system's long-term viability. The challenge for all of us is to make sure that this program is sustainable for the long-term. The model I like to point to is development of the interstate highway system, a program that took over four decades to complete. We have to manage expectations. Interest by the States in high-speed rail far exceeds the funds available today, just as it was in the beginning of the interstate system. But public support for the interstate system didn't wane, because citizens could see early successes and knew that ultimately the interstate system would serve them too. Of all of our challenges, managing expectations may be the most important one for us to address. Challenge number two is capability of the States. A handful of States have been engaged in railroad issues for many years. Fortunately, we have a couple at the table with us. But, unfortunately, the number of States with the strong and experienced rail staffs capable of implementing complex rail improvements are the exception rather than the rule. And that is why FRA has engaged the States early and often, and is committed to continuing that effort to enhance the ability of States to manage rail projects. Freight railroad partnerships is another challenge. America's freight railroad system is the envy of the world. But while we build a world-class high-speed passenger rail system, we cannot do that at the expense of degrading our world-class freight rail system. FRA believes there are opportunities to develop partnerships between freight railroads and States to address common interests like requirements for positive train control and safety at highway-rail grade crossings. Finally, we have safety. FRA's mission is, first and foremost, safety. If high-speed rail is to be successful, it must be safe. Ensuring the safety standards evolve as necessary is critical. FRA has recently made available for comment a draft High-Speed Passenger Rail Safety Strategy, which is appended to the testimony. This Strategy endeavors to achieve uniform safe rail passenger service, regardless of speed. In conclusion, the FRA of two years from now will be a significantly different agency than what you see today. While safety will always be our most important mission, we will also be playing a leading role in making the investments that position our Country's transportation system for the future. I am incredibly proud to be at FRA today and to have the opportunity to lead the dedicated team through this transformation. I look forward to a dialog with you on this exciting new initiative. Thank you. Ms. Brown. Thank you. Secretary Busalacchi? Mr. Busalacchi. Chairwoman Brown, Ranking Member Mica, Members of the Committee, my name is Frank Busalacchi. I am Secretary of the Wisconsin Department of Transportation and Chair of the States for Passenger Rail Coalition. I am here today representing the Coalition and appreciate the opportunity to share my views on achieving our national passenger rail vision. The Passenger Rail Investment and Improvement Act of 2008 and the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 provided a policy and funding basis for significant expansion of the Nation's passenger rail network. Through President Obama's Federal 2010 budget request and the action of the House and Senate Appropriation Committees, Congress has shown its commitment to passenger rail. States have seized this opportunity by submitting ARRA passenger rail applications that have far exceeded the $8 billion that ARRA provided. But the challenge facing us all is to build the right projects, use the available funds wisely, and plan for the future. When passed, PRIIA legislation employed the New Starts model for funding distribution. However, under that program, funding is competitive on a year-to-year basis and competition among the States for funding would be intense. It doesn't have to be this way. I strongly urge Congress to adopt the interstate model to build the national passenger rail network. Many States want to develop their passenger rail networks and can support projects on an 80/20 Federal/State funding split, but they need that Federal share. The Federal Government and the States need to think strategically about expanding the passenger rail network and to work toward a long-term vision. The reality is that States are in different phases of development. A phased approach allows States that are ready to go to construct their projects, while States who are not ready can work on their planning and environmental process with some confidence that they will be able to fund their projects in a later phase. This issue should be addressed in the National Rail Plan that FRA is developing. Whether you are building a home, school, or a rail network, you have to know when you begin your planning that you will have the capacity to pay for the project through completion. The States for Passenger Rail Coalition has been consistent in pursuit of a Federal funding partner that can make a long- term commitment to passenger rail. In our view, elements of a funding policy include: recognition that passenger rail is a critical transportation element; provision of an 80/20 Federal/ State funding program to plan, design, and implement passenger rail; provision of an ongoing source of Federal revenue; and establishment of program and funding policies similar to the highway program. In the Coalition's view, the next surface transportation authorization bill must contain a multi-year authorization for passenger rail funding with a strong Federal partnership so more States can develop and deliver passenger rail service. Because of the growing interest in passenger rail, States are in fact coordinating with each other now. For example, eight Midwest Governors and the Mayor of the City of Chicago recently signed a Memorandum of Understanding to create a steering group to align efforts as we develop our passenger rail network. Recently, Wisconsin agreed to buy two Talgo train sets. These 14-car sets will largely be manufactured in Wisconsin, with only 30 percent of the manufacturing to take place in Spain. Wisconsin is investing $47 million in these train sets, with the goal of bringing manufacturing jobs back to the Midwest. To make this happen, train manufacturers need the reliable revenue stream that only a long-term Federal commitment will provide so they can justify their economic investments in plants and equipment. Since most expanded and new service will run on privately owned freight tracks, capacity is a critical challenge for the States and the freight lines. Coalition States have been successful so far in working together with freight railroads, but fair negotiations with freight rail lines on capacity and other issues are growing and will need to be addressed. We have all been frustrated with the pace of the surface transportation authorization bill, but its passage is critically important to the Nation if we want to define a policy that will allow the Nation to build a 21st century rail network. For that reason, I think it is imperative that we pass forward with the development of the National Rail Plan. We should not wait another six years to complete that task. I also encourage the Subcommittee to take another look at the National Surface Transportation Policy and Revenue Study Commission's Passenger Rail Working Group report. It outlines a 50-year vision for what passenger rail could be in this Nation. A copy of the report is attached to my written testimony. States are ready to be partners in the development and delivery of new passenger rail service in our Nation. We have proven that the partnership works in the highway and transit modes. There are many opportunities and challenges ahead, but I believe that through a solid Federal/State partnership we can maximize this golden opportunity to create a 21st century passenger rail network that will benefit the citizens of our Nation for decades to come. Thank you. Ms. Fleming. Madam Chair, Ranking Member Mica, and Members of the Subcommittee, I am pleased to be here today to discuss funding for high-speed and other intercity passenger rail projects under the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act. The $8 billion provided by the Act for high-speed and other intercity passenger rail projects has focused more attention on and generated a great deal of anticipation about the possibility of developing high-speed rail in the United States. My testimony has three parts: I will discuss some principles that could guide the effective use of these funds, some challenges that States will need to surmount in establishing high-speed and other intercity passenger rail service, and the nature of our ongoing work on Recovery Act high-speed rail projects. First, several principles could guide the effective use of Recovery Act funds and any future investment in high-speed rail. These principles include establishing clear Federal objectives and stakeholder roles, clearly identifying expected outcomes, basing decisions on reliable ridership and other forecasts, and re-examining how intercity passenger rail service fits in with other Federal surface transportation programs. While each of these principles is important, the third principle will soon come into play as FRA decides which projects will receive initial Recovery Act funding. As you know, FRA has received applications totaling almost $60 billion for $8 billion available in Recovery Act funds. Determining which, if any, high-speed rail project may eventually be economically viable will rest on the factors such as ridership potential, cost, and public benefits. High-speed rail is more likely to attract riders in densely and highly populated corridors, especially where there is congestion on existing transportation modes and where it compares favorably to travel alternatives in terms of door-to- door trip times, price, frequency of service, reliability, and safety. Costs largely hinge on the availability of rail right- of-way, land use patterns, and a corridor's terrain. To stay within financial or other constraints, project sponsors typically make tradeoffs between cost and service characteristics. We are pleased to note that FRA's notice of funding availability of high-speed rail projects generally asks applicants to address those factors. I will now turn to my second point. Once FRA chooses projects for funding, project sponsors face several significant challenges. These include securing the significant up-front investment for construction costs; sustaining public, political, and financial support; and resolving outstanding liability issues. We found that in other countries with high-speed intercity passenger rail systems, the central government generally funded the majority of up-front costs of high-speed rail lines. The $8 billion in Recovery Act funds represents a significant increase in Federal funds available to develop new or enhanced intercity passenger rail. This amount, however, represents only a small fraction of the estimated cost for starting or enhancing service on the federally authorized high-speed rail corridors. Furthermore, the challenge of sustaining public and political support and stakeholder consensus is compounded by long project lead times, the diverse interests of numerous stakeholders, and the absence of an institutional framework for coordination and decision-making. Finally, several State and industry stakeholders have told us that outstanding questions about liability coverage for passenger rail providers on freight railroad tracks is a major barrier to entry for service providers and for host railroads. Moving on to my last topic-- our ongoing Recovery Act work on intercity passenger rail projects-- our work is focused on determining how States that have recently initiated passenger rail service have met these challenges, how the rail industry can accommodate this increased investment, and how FRA is planning to oversee the use of Recovery Act funds for intercity passenger rail service. We are in the beginning stages of our work and plan to report on these issues early next spring. We would be pleased to discuss our work with you or your staff as we progress. In conclusion, the infusion of up to $8 billion in Recovery Act funds is only a first step in developing potentially viable high-speed passenger rail projects. The principles we have identified can be applied to promote the effective investment of Recovery Act and future Federal funds for these projects. Surmounting these challenges will require Federal, State, and other stakeholder leadership to champion the development of economically viable high-speed rail corridors and have the political will to carry them out. They will also require clear, specific policies and delineations of expected outcomes and objective realistic analysis of ridership costs and other factors to determine the viability of projects and their transportation impact. Madam Chair, this concludes my statement. I would be pleased to answer any questions you or Members of this Subcommittee may have. Ms. Brown. Thank you. We are going to hear from Mr. Simmons, then we will have questioning after we have five votes. So, Mr. Simmons, we are going to hear from you and then we will go to questions and answers when we get back. Mr. Simmons. Thank you, Madam Chairman and Ranking Member Mica and Members of the Committee, for this opportunity to be here today. I represent the American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials today. That is away from my daily job as directing a rail division at the State level. We interact there with freight and passenger interests; we manage safety programs; we conduct industry inspections; we partner with Class I railroads, Amtrak and short lines, to make economic development opportunities occur in our States around the Country. North Carolina is the lead State in developing the federally designated Southeast High-Speed Rail Corridor which we refer to as SEHSR. Today, my boss, Gene Conti, Secretary Conti could not be with the Committee, so he asked me to stand in for him. Secretary Conti chairs the Standing Committee of rail transportation officials across the Country. Through AASHTO, we advocate for improved transportation policies and we share with one another; we provide each other with technical assistance. This is my third time this year to appear before this Subcommittee. Each time we have had a valuable dialog, we have had constructive engagements on the issues, and it has really been a learning experience for me. As I prepared testimony, I refreshed myself by looking at the vision for high-speed rail expressed by President Obama. There, he identified high-speed and intercity passenger rail, and we have interest across the Country in that. Of course, with the new express, the higher-end projects of 150 miles an hour and above, there are a number of emerging and regional corridors around the Country looking at top speeds of 90 to 110 miles an hour, and then there are projects that are looking to get into the game, States that do not have service or are looking to upgrade reliability for conventional operations. That is really the last time I am going to mention speed itself, but I am going to refer to mobility and travel time. The U.S., particularly FRA, has a tough job. I can't tell you how refreshed I am to have completed the task of submitting our application, and I know that my colleagues around the Country also put forward their best efforts. It will be tough for Administrator Szabo and his staff to judge these efforts. We are pleased, as States, to partner both with the States for Passenger Rail and through AASHTO to compliment the agency and the work that they are now doing. Last week, in North Carolina, we had the announcement of another factory, one that we had invested a lot in as a State, and it closed, and that represented 1,000 jobs that went away. That hurts anywhere that happens, but clearly the main opportunity for the Reinvestment Act is to create jobs. We need that in our State; we need that in States across the Country; we need that across our Nation. We also need to partner to make capacity investments. Prior to the downturn in the economy, passenger service across the Country suffered from poor on-time performance. It did so because we didn't have the capacity in our national network. These investments and partnerships with the freight railroads can help ensure mobility for freight and passenger services. Now is the time to put people to work making meaningful, long- term infrastructure investments. High-speed rail is a lead policy element; it will help guide our transportation future, but it challenges us also to consider energy, the environment, and land use in putting forward these projects. I challenge the Committee to also think a little more broadly, rather than a single project. A single project would be a lovely signature project for our Country, but it will not recover the Nation's economy, nor will it foster partnerships across the Country that will leverage mobility. Our State DOTs are poised on an era of change. Our department is the second largest highway department in the Country, but we now need to build broader mobility options in transit and with rail. We will need to broaden our partnerships with the freight railroad companies to improve both passenger and freight throughput. That is important. PRIIA and ARRA are great starts. We know that we need to be transparent in progressing these initiatives, and we need to be prepared to make adjustments as we learn more as we go forward. All elements of our society will be challenged to grow and to manage the capacity that we have with these opportunities. As States, we need a couple of tools. I want to echo some of what Secretary Busalacchi said about the need for investments in planning funds so that States can help design a national network that will serve our Country well into the future. In addition to the new authority that U.S. DOT has to issue letters of intent for projects to build over a period of time, States will need the program stability and contract authority to be able to deploy this scale of infrastructure improvements. Thank you on behalf of AASHTO and State rail programs across the State for this opportunity today. States have risen to the challenge and have presented FRA with proposals for real mobility investments, real partnerships, real agreements with our freight railroads across the Country. States are ready to build today and we hope to have the opportunity soon. Ms. Brown. Thank you. We are going to stand in informal recess while we go to vote. We have five votes, then we will start up. Thank you. We will have questions when we get back. Thank you. [Recess.] Ms. Brown. Will the Committee please come back to order? I understand that Mr. Szabo has a plane at 5:30, so we want to start with you with the questioning, and I know my colleague, I saw him jotting down notes quickly when you were speaking on the question of high-speed and what constitutes high-speed. I know there is much discussion, but would you discuss with us what you all visualize as high-speed and what are some of the elements that you are using to make the decision? I know I had the Secretary, less than a week ago, down in Florida, and he was saying it is on the Web site. Well, would you tell us some of the criteria? Because there is such excitement throughout the Country. I have been to California, Texas, Florida, Tennessee, and all of the Committee Members. Everywhere I go there is such an interest and one of the things we have to make sure is that we put in a system that really works and the American people can see it. Most American people--and we can ask this audience how many people have been on high-speed rail. Raise your hand, let's just see. See, this is such an unusual audience. Thank you. Most people in this Country, when we talk about high-speed, don't know what we are talking about. So, with that, would you answer that question? We have other questions. And if the other Members don't mind, we will ask him questions and then let him catch his plane. Is that okay with the Committee? Thank you. Mr. Szabo. I think the first important point to note is that virtually all speeds are eligible under the grant guidance, and if you go back to my written testimony, in the Vision for High-Speed Rail in America that was released by the White House, there essentially are four areas that it talks about, which is conventional rail, which operates in that 79 to 90 mile an hour range; emerging high-speed rail, which are developing corridors of roughly 100 to 500 miles an hour in length, with top speeds of 90 to 110 miles an hour; and then high-speed regional rail, which, of course, is more frequent service between major and moderate population centers roughly 100 to 500 miles apart, with top speeds roughly in the range of 110 to 500; and then high-speed rail express, which is that service between major population centers more in the range of 200 to 600 miles apart, with very few stops, with top speeds in excess of 150 miles an hour. I think it is real important to note, first off, that all of these speeds and all of these services are important. We talk quite a bit about the European model, and this is in fact the model that is used in Europe and Asia. Not every single train is going 200 miles an hour. It is important to understand how these pieces fit together depending on the market being served, and I like to compare it to our road and highway system, where you have local streets, you have county roads, you have State highways, you have U.S. highways, and then you have the interstate system; and all of them are very, very important components that fit together to make a comprehensive road and highway network. So what we need to ensure is that we build out a comprehensive passenger rail program. It is also, I think, important to note that quite often your startup is going to be more meager, but will be an important incremental step into the ultimate build-out. For example, if you go back and look at what Spain did, they didn't start out at 200 miles an hour; they started out roughly about 110, 125 miles an hour, with about a half dozen trains a day, and the ridership grew. It was so successful that from there they were able to go up to whatever it is, roughly 20 trains a day at speeds of 200 miles an hour. So it is about what can you most cost-effectively achieve immediately to build the ridership base before you take that next step. Certainly, I don't want to leave the impression that we are diminishing 150 mile or 200 mile an hour service. Certainly, that is a standard that we expect to be achieved and that we intend to make happen. But, again, not every train everywhere will be running 200 miles an hour. The other question that you asked, I think the second part to that, was the criteria that we will be using. As we went through the first round of applications, we put together panels; we gave them a strong orientation, one day of orientation to make sure that all members of the panel were on the same page, understood the criteria, that there was a consistency in how these projects were judged; and then we divided those panels up and, on a random basis, assigned to them applications to review. So nobody knew whose applications from where they were given, it was a lottery. The approach will be, obviously, similar as we go now into the major corridors. I think we ended up with a dozen panels in the first go-round. Obviously, we won't need that many in this go-round, it will be a smaller handful. But they will be a little bit larger because they are going to need a higher level of technical expertise and we need to make sure that that technical expertise is available to those panels. Quite obviously, it is going to be a longer process, a much more intense process as they take a look at those markets that have the strongest value. Ms. Brown. So do you have an idea as to when you all are going to announce the initial rounds? Mr. Szabo. We strategically chose to hold that. While the work has been done, it really comes back to the comments that you made, that Ranking Member Mica made, and other Members of the Committee about making sure this is done right. You know, it was painful to delay because we had given our word, and it is always very painful not to deliver on your word, particularly when you do have the ability to deliver on your word. But a three month delay or so. We are talking about the birth of a new program, so in the grander scheme of things, to make sure this is done right and that we look at all these applications holistically, to make sure that all the pieces fit together properly, a short three-, four-month delay is minuscule. Ms. Brown. Okay. All right, I am going to Mr. Mica. Mr. Mica. Thank you. A couple of comments. I want to respect your time, but, Mr. Administrator, you heard me talk about the northeast corridor. As you know, that really is the only corridor that Amtrak owns. We have a couple of small pieces, but we have nothing as extensive as that heavily traveled corridor. I always consider one of our most important assets and I always joke about us sitting on our asset. The northeast corridor doesn't have a high-speed designation right now, but you have the ability to designate that and qualify it for some of these funds. What is your thought there? Mr. Szabo. Well, I think the first and most important point to make is that that designation is not necessary in order to be the recipient of any of the ARRA high-speed grants. Mr. Mica. So you are saying you can without. I don't want to get you into prioritizing, but certainly when you own that kind of an asset, when it is so critical to transportation and the entire northeast corridor, it would seem that it should be the top of the list. The problem is I heard our commissioner, who is sitting next to you, talk about having a plan. We have designated corridors, but we really don't have a strategic passenger rail plan. Where would the northeast corridor, you think, fit into a future plan? Mr. Szabo. Well, I think that is the key second part that I wanted to state. While it is not necessary to have the designation to receive the grants today, the important news is the designations will be better flushed out as we do move forward with our National Rail Plan. FRA is required to deliver to Congress a preliminary draft of a rail plan by this Friday, October 16th. We are on time to do so. In fact, your staff will be briefed on it, I believe, tomorrow. Mr. Mica. That is on time and will be here? Mr. Szabo. Yes, sir. Mr. Mica. Okay. Good. Do you want to give us any preliminary, since it is only a day or two away and we may be gone Friday? Mr. Szabo. You will get the briefing tomorrow, sir. But, no, that is where we will start flushing out these issues of the additional potential designations, you know, where are the best potential markets; how does it fit together with freight rail. The National Rail Plan is not strictly a passenger rail document; it will be a comprehensive rail document. Mr. Mica. Well, the other thing you have heard today--well, first of all, $8 billion is a significant amount of money, but in the scheme of these larger investment projects and systems it is not a lot. Even with the $50 billion Mr. Oberstar and I have committed to try to get into the surface reauthorization, $50 billion won't cut it. But what will cut it is leveraging. How do you view leveraging? And we will hear from another panel that leveraging is possible; they do it with other infrastructure projects as much as eight to one, which would give you huge capacity, and you have huge revenues if it is a huge success. Mr. Szabo. The good news is that the States have the flexibility to choose the provider of their choice. There is dialogue that is going on between the States and various private entities, and certainly we encourage that dialogue. Mr. Mica. Well, I heard your analogy to the interstate system, and we do have other components in rail in place, but I think it would be beneficial, based on the fact that we really have no high-speed rail system, to have one or two successes not just at the 79 to 90 mile an hour or 90 to 110, but something that would be competitive with the rest of the world and also at least one model that we could show true high-speed service. Mr. Szabo. Yes. Certainly, we are aware of the need to provide some very real, very tangible success. Mr. Mica. Quite frankly, Ms. Brown, I can't speak for her, but we are not parochial about this. We are not campaigning for any site. You haven't heard us. We look in our district or our area, and we model pretty much. We are looking for a success for the Country. So we appreciate your efforts and look forward to working with you. Yield back. Ms. Brown. True bipartisan. Mr. Cohen. Mr. Cohen. Thank you, Madam Chair. I am going to be quite parochial. I am from Memphis. Memphis is the transportation hub of the Nation; largest cargo airline, highways, rail yards, Mississippi River. No high-speed rail. Last year, Marion Barry and I worked together and got a portion of a bill passed that would have a feasibility study for the South Central High-Speed Rail Corridor where you go from Little Rock to Memphis. It has been a year and the study has not commenced. Memphis is no closer to high-speed rail service, and it would be a very important thing. We have a hub airline there; people like to come in for that. They like to come and eat barbecue, sing the blues after they watch our football games, and things like that. Can I ask you can you give me any assurances that you are going to get that study commenced and started so we can foresee some high-speed rail? Mr. Szabo. The good news is that we have requested those resources in the fiscal year 2010 budget request, and if that funding is provided we will in fact provide the study. Mr. Cohen. For Memphis-Little Rock? Mr. Szabo. Yes, sir. Mr. Cohen. Have you ever heard of Alex Chilton? Have you ever heard of the Box Tops? Mr. Szabo. Yes, I remember the Box Tops. Mr. Cohen. Well, Alex was stretching me a little bit, but Alex was 18 and wrote that song, number one hit, number one hit, the Box Tops. Give me a ticket for an airplane; ain't got time to catch a fast train; my baby just wrote me a letter. [Laughter.] Mr. Cohen. We will write you a new song. Get us a fast train. [Laughter.] Mr. Cohen. Thank you. I yield the remainder of my time. Ms. Brown. Mr. Oberstar, how are you going to top that? Mr. Cohen. Top that. Mr. Oberstar. I don't compose music or lyrics; we compose legislation. Sometimes lyrics can help you move things along. You have a good spirit going. I know that, Mr. Szabo, you have a time limitation; you have to get underway. The question is the Buy America requirement going to create problems in the development as we move into the implementation phase? Have you evaluated the availability of railcar, locomotive, subassemblies, trucks? Rail is not a problem, most of it is in place, some may need upgrading; switches. Positive train controls are going to be necessary for these high-speed projects, especially where passenger rail must intersect with freight rail that is using the same track or the same corridor. What is your assessment of the availability of the parts, equipment, subassemblies, and other under the Buy America provisions? Mr. Szabo. When, an absolute goal out of this whole process is to ensure that we reinvigorate domestic manufacturing. Are the Buy American provisions going to be a problem? Absolutely not because they are a requirement that are going to have to be met. We are going through right now the development of a strategy about how we can better bring together both the foreign and domestic manufacturers. The biggest thing that we need to ensure that we reinvigorate domestic manufacturing is knowing that there is going to be a sustainable long-term program. You are not going to see the investment into plant and equipment if the businessman doesn't believe he is going to get an appropriate return on his investment. So, unfortunately, at this point, so many of the opportunities rest with foreign manufacturers. We need to bring the parties together to make sure that there are joint ventures; to make sure that if it a foreign manufacturer, that is more than just simply assembling the cars or locomotives in this Country, but that there actually is a downstream supply, you know, the suppliers involved, the domestic suppliers---- Mr. Oberstar. Well, you are on the right agenda here. I was going to say the right track, but that is stretching things. I am going to send you relevant pages of testimony from hearings I held in 1988 on Buy America in our highway and transit and Corps of Engineer programs. What we found in the course of that set of hearings was that the Federal Highway Administration was in full compliance, 100 percent compliance; every rebar, every I-beam, every guardrail, every fence post was steel made in America. When we got to the transit program, we found that because of the abandonment of public transit by our fellow citizens from the 1920s through the early post-war era, track was pulled up, locomotives set off, passenger cars were sold to Central and South America. The manufacturing capability went offshore. The only major U.S. component manufacturer was Allied Signal, and they were bring subassemblies in from overseas and assembling them in the U.S. So it was a dismal picture. Not that Federal transit was avoiding the law; there just wasn't a market for those products, for the buses, for the passenger railcars, and for the locomotives appropriate for passenger rail service. Now there is. Mr. Szabo. That is right. Mr. Oberstar. We have a robust Federal transit program. There are manufacturers for light rail, commuter rail, intercity passenger rail. Bus manufacturers that left have been replaced by those who founded their American facilities and are producing American parts; some imported, but well below the threshold required. I asked the question because there is some passenger railcar manufacturing capability in the United States, but certainly not sufficient to supply what we hope will be a robust outpouring of projects that you and the Secretary are going to have to decide on in the next month and a half or so, because I want you to pay attention to that. We have American railcar, we have Kawasaki that is located somewhere in the United States; we have Bombardier. Talgo has made a commitment with the governor of Wisconsin to locate a manufacturing facility in Wisconsin should they be awarded a portion of the stimulus to do the Chicago to Milwaukee to Madison to Minnesota segment. There are others. But we had a problem in the current stimulus with the EPA program, where EPA and the State agencies did not think ahead and anticipate shortage of pumps, because we have a lack of pump and valve manufacturing capability in the United States. A good many of those products are produced in Canada. We had to work out exceptions. That delayed the implementation of the EPA portion of stimulus and many States, about 20 States, have nothing going, have no contracts underway. So I don't want to see that happen. I want you to take a close look at that aspect of it and make sure that when you award these projects, there is going to be compliance and that is not going to be an impediment. Mr. Szabo. Chairman, the good news is that the Secretary clearly shares your point of view and has made that message very clear to us, and we are in fact trying to get ahead of the curve on this. Again, we are just starting our strategy now on the format that we are going to use, but we are probably going to call some type of summit with the manufacturers and suppliers. And, again, the Secretary has made very clear that he expects a downstream benefit on this of all the suppliers that are providing carpeting for the railcars, leather for the seats, you know, light bulbs, whatever the components are. Mr. Oberstar. That is very good and you tell the Secretary I sent my compliments. He started out well. He started his career in Congress here in this Committee. Is one of the considerations in making these awards under stimulus going to be sustainability of the project? Mr. Szabo. Absolutely. Mr. Oberstar. And by that what do you mean? Mr. Szabo. Well, obviously, that is exactly the type of criteria that we are going to be looking at and the type of merits that we will be judging the projects on. Again, we have to know that what we do here supports the long-term vision, and that is why the evaluation criteria that we will be using is not only the obvious, like the transportation benefits, the energy efficiency and livable communities, but then the applicants' track record of comparable projects, the thoroughness of their management plan, the reasonableness of their financial estimates, the quality of their planning process, a detailed review of their financial plan. Clearly, we understand that it has to be sustainable. Everything we are talking about doing is based on that long-term vision. Mr. Oberstar. But also be careful about the legacy of the previous administration in the transit arena, and their cost- effectiveness index that was invented out of whole cloth for the purpose of denying, rather than affirming, transit projects. So don't get caught up and deterred by those invalid premises. Mr. Szabo. We have spent a great deal of time studying the transit process to learn both from best examples as well as, perhaps, mistakes. Mr. Oberstar. Are you going to--you have selected four tracks. Are you going to be making simultaneous awards or are you going to do track one, and then two, and then three, and then four? How are you going to sequence this process? Mr. Szabo. We would anticipate at this time that it will be more comprehensive announcements, but it won't be sequenced; we will come out with comprehensive announcements. Mr. Oberstar. Okay. There are lots of other questions I have, but those suffice for the moment. Thank you for tackling this assignment and getting it underway very expeditiously. Mr. Szabo. We are enjoying the challenge. Mr. Oberstar. Listen to Mr. Busalacchi, though, he will tell you a lot about how to do things right. Ms. Brown. I understand you only have about five more minutes. Mrs. Napolitano. Mrs. Napolitano. Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr. Szabo, so glad to see you again. My questions are in regard to the efforts that California is making. I am sure you heard my comments before we recessed. But is there anything in your plan to require the rail authorities involved to mitigate not only the noise, the congestion, the safety impacts of the high-speed rail? That is question number one. And how do you plan to work with those communities or are you only going to work with the States? Mr. Szabo. The key is the important news and the good news is that this essentially is what gets flushed out during the process and the development of the environmental impact statement, and that is the very reason why that document is required to be created, that you must go in and work with the communities and understand the effect upon them, the effects upon them on noise and analyzing various routes and understanding the effects, pros and cons, of each of those routes. So that is an important part of the process; it is something that Federal law requires. We require it and we review it. Mrs. Napolitano. You will be working with the communities themselves also? Mr. Szabo. We won't be directly involved with the communities per se, but, again, we will be reviewing the work that the States do in developing their EIS and make sure that it is a document that is going to be legally supportable so there aren't suits from the communities. Mrs. Napolitano. Great. The fact that many of the railroads are opposed to local government taking the right-of-ways for the high-speed rail, in other words, to build that extra track for dedicated service, because it does hinder their freight movement and that is where their profitability is. So how do we address these concerns and how do we implement what Secretary LaHood informed me that Chicago and--I forget what other city he mentioned; it escapes me at my age--that are working at looking at the tri-methods that we need: goods movement, mass transit, and high-speed rail? Mr. Szabo. First off, I think it is important that we keep in mind that the rail right-of-way in most cases is a privately owned asset by a private for-profit corporation that answers to a board of directors and to shareholders, so we have to understand that it truly is their property. However, I do think we have the opportunity--it really comes back to what I talked about in my testimony--to form partnerships, and it has to be partnerships that achieve win-win solutions. The worst thing we could do is to advance the President's agenda for high-speed rail to get passengers on trains at the expense of forcing freight off the rail and onto the highways and creating even worse congestion and pollution and use of fuel. So we are going to have to find the careful balance. I think it will come in a couple places. First off, we will touch on this in the development of the National Rail Plan, but I also think probably more important than that, it will be a part of the work that FRA continues to do with the State DOTs to strengthen their level of expertise, their level of experience in negotiating these types of agreements. You know, you tend to find less problems in those States where there is a mature relationship between the freight railroads and the rail bureau of the DOT, and it is a lot more challenging for a new State that is just venturing in and perhaps dealing with that freight carrier for the first time and doesn't understand all of the issues. They are pretty complex. Mrs. Napolitano. Right. But understand that in Los Angeles County, which is over 12 million people, there is no room left, no open land. So there will be a lot of need of rail separation, and the railroads will not support very much that financially; it is only about three percent. So that leaves the locals and the State and the county and others to come up with the funding. That is a big issue. Mr. Szabo. Yes, it is, and it is one we have to continue to work through. Mrs. Napolitano. Thank you, sir. I yield back. Ms. Brown. I have a couple of quick questions that I want to run by you before you leave. I understand you have only one minute so, let's see how we are going to do that. [Laughter.] Ms. Brown. In the Passenger Rail Investment Improvement Act of October, 2008, Congress attempted to address the issue of how railroad labor laws would be applied to workers on passenger rail operations and infrastructure such as signalmen who benefit from grants issued to the States. Can you tell me how the FRA has interpreted the Act and how these labor laws will be applied? Mr. Szabo. Yes, Madam Chair, we believe the law is very, very clear. The intent of Congress is very, very clear. In almost all circumstances, if you accept FRA funding for the purpose of pursuing high-speed or intercity passenger rail, you will be deemed a ''railcarrier'' under 49 U.S.C. 24405(b), and fall under all of those Federal laws that apply to railroads and rail workers, the Railroad Retirement Act, the Railway Labor Act, and any of these other applicable Federal laws. And certainly we intend to make that a part of our grant agreements, to just reinforce what the law already states. Ms. Brown. One last point, I note that you are not giving us a drop dead date, but we are going to adjourn in, I guess, some time before Christmas. Will you make your announcement before Christmas? Mr. Szabo. No. I am fairly certain it will not come until after the first of the year. I would rather promise little and deliver much than make a promise I can't keep. So I think it is safe to say after the first of the year. Ms. Brown. Well, thank you very much, and I understand that maybe Mark Yachmetz will take your place. Thank you very much, Mr. Administrator. I just want you to know that there is, if you look around in the room, a lot of interest. Mr. Szabo. Yes, there is. Ms. Brown. There is. You are a very popular person right now. [Laughter.] Ms. Brown. Okay, we have some other questions for the other panelists. The first question I want to ask you is I have heard, and I know you have, that there is a lot of discussion concerning planning grants, and that we didn't have enough in the pipeline. What is FRA doing to address those needs? Mr. Yachmetz. First off, you are correct. There was one of the oversights in the Recovery Act was planning was not an eligible expense, and so all we had was the $9 million in our fiscal year 2009 appropriation. We have been working with the appropriators to make sure that that oversight is addressed in the 2010 bill, and I believe both Houses have significantly increased the amounts of funds. I believe the House is at $50 million for 2010. We would actually like to see it a little bit higher. Ms. Brown. Okay, okay. Thank you. Next question is for Mrs. Fleming. In your written testimony, you mentioned that outstanding questions on liability coverage for passenger rail providers and operators on freight rail tracks is a major barrier to inter-service providers for the host railroads. What recommendations do you have to minimize the barriers that liability issues may cause between State and host railroads in efforts to expand high- speed passenger rail? And that is really shaping up to not just high-speed, period, inter-city rail. Ms. Fleming. Right. Well, as you know, this is a huge, complex issue and negotiations can take many years. There is really no cookie cutter approach. What our work has found is that it really varies depending on the freight railroad and the commuter rail, the who owns the track, the speed of the trains, and when they would be running. So there are a lot of different nuances. But, we have found that it is in the mutual best interest for both the freight and other, the commuter rail or in this case it would be high-speed rail projects, to work together to resolve these. While it takes a long time, they eventually do come up with a mutually beneficial agreement. Ms. Brown. What have we learned from other--you have done extensive studies on foreign high-speed rail systems. What can you report back to us about lessons learned as we develop? I mean, because we are at the baby stage. Ms. Fleming. Well, there are several. In the countries we visited-- which were Spain, France and Japan-- there was a commitment and a priority to develop high-speed rail. And that commitment, basically, started out as a financial commitment. So the majority of up front construction costs were paid by the central government, often without the expectation that its initial investment would be recouped. This model basically, as well as an integrated intermodal approach, and taking the time to develop a vision and plan for high-speed rail, as well as with the goals and objectives, very much led to the successful development of high-speed rail. A second lesson learned is that in many of these countries, the initial investment was to build a trunk line between two intercity pairs with dense populations, and an existing market of intercity travelers in other modes. These lines would be like Madrid to Seville and Tokyo to Osaka. These initial lines have proven to be very viable, so much so that the revenues have been sufficient to cover their operating costs, as well as some of the initial investments. I think our last lesson would be that high-speed rail systems are reliable and safe, and are very often designed to be time and price competitive with other modes. Ms. Brown. Mr. Simmons, do you want to respond to that? Mr. Simmons. Yes. One of the observations that we have of the development internationally of high-speed rail are several. First, they have been at it for decades, and so there is a well-developed industry to design and implement these services. A second point, which is often missed, is that particularly in Japan and some of the other places, that they fully developed their base railway system first, and then deployed the dedicated true high-speed lines. I think we should learn from the lessons that we see from abroad, recognize it is going to take us a while to overcome a 40 or 50 year head start. I think we can make some constructive investments, and I will give you an example of one that we are working on. And it is that today, our top service speed is 79 miles an hour, and we can't go faster until we make some improvements to the railroad, but primarily until positive train control is implemented. Then we will be able to hit top speeds of 90 to 110. As we have designed our corridor, and I believe as other States have designed their corridors, they designed them for even higher speeds, but we need to wait on technology and policies to change. So that with our particular corridor, you will later be able to go faster on the same tracks within the same corridor, but with a different machine, an electrified locomotive. So I think one should observe what is happening around the world, learn some of those lessons carefully, figure out how to apply them, learn from some of the technology that has been developed elsewhere that can help us here in America, and figure out how to do it in our mixed freight and passenger environment. I think we have some good opportunities to do that. Ms. Brown. I have been on several of the systems, but I have never been on a high-speed system that interact with the freight. So I would like to know, are we looking at separate tracks? We certainly have to be looking at positive train controls. One of the things that we have right here, every year we go on a trip on the train and we share, of course, with the freight, and it is kind of embarrassing that we are, we go on a two-hour trip and we get there four hours late, but we are sharing the track. So these are some of the, I guess Mr. Yachmetz, you can respond to that. As we move forward, when we are really talking about high-speed rail, are we talking about separate tracks? Mr. Busalacchi. Well, I think---- Ms. Brown. Well, I mean, I would love to hear from all of you on that subject area. Mr. Busalacchi. Well, let me just say, I think Pat was right on the mark in what he said. Ms. Brown. I can't hear you, Mr. Secretary. Mr. Busalacchi. Yes, I did that. I thought I did that. Can you hear now? Ms. Brown. Yes, sir. Mr. Busalacchi. Okay. What Pat said is absolutely true, but I think we have to be careful about high-speed rail versus the regular rail. I can speak for what we do in our State; we will deliver service on a host railroad. We work off of the freight track. Now, is that a good situation for us? For us, it works and it works very, very well. The key is that our trains are 90 percent on time. We have a great working relationship with Amtrak. We have a terrific working relationship with Canadian Pacific. So in our particular situation, it does work. We seem to get in this push and shove about high-speed versus the 100 or 110 mile per hour service. And I believe that, we need to walk, like Pat said. We need to walk first, and work our way into this before we really get into the true high speed. The concern that I have, and it has been my main concern, is that we are spending a lot of money here, and the public is looking at all of us. We understand this stuff, all of us here. We know what is going on. But the average citizen, well, I am not so sure. And we have to make sure that when we spend these dollars on passenger rail, that we do it right. This is going to be the key here, that we do it and we do it right. We need to listen to the experts, FRA. We need to listen to the AAR. And together, we need to work these situations out, Madam Chair. We can do it. I am not saying that we can't. The worst thing that can happen is that these trains are not on time. If we get into that situation where people are sitting at these stations and they are waiting and waiting and waiting, people are going to abandon these trains. They are going to go back to their cars. That is not what we need to do here. And that is why Pat and I talk, coming out of the gate, we need to do it right. Ms. Brown. Well, if you listen to the testimony that I have had from the international people, one of the things at the top of the list is on time, capacity, on time, I mean, those are major factors. But we have got to throw ridership. I mean, because we cannot have a train and just, we have got to make sure the people are on the train. And I guess we are talking about a combination. Maybe we are talking about two or three corridors that are high speed, and then we are talking about more speed. I mean, you look at some of the areas like in the Northeast Corridor, I mean, some people would like to see them going 200 miles an hour. Well, maybe that is not the best thing. Maybe the best thing is that we can improve some of those tracks and some of those bridges and some of those tunnels, and be able to go from Washington to New York in two hours. I mean, that might be a good thing. Mr. Yachmetz? Mr. Yachmetz. Well, to the question that you raised about whether at some point we need to have the high speed on separate tracks, yes. At some point, there is. High speed, fast trains raise safety issues, reliability issues, capacity issues. And so at some point, there will be a need for either a separate track on the same right-of-way or an all new right-of- way. And those decisions will be driven by, a lot of the analysis of how much freight traffic is on there right now; what is the terrain; what are the other issues that would affect these decisions. And I think that is part of the good planning that needs to be done cooperatively between the freight railroads, the States, the passenger railroads, and FRA. And we have done this on some corridors already, and we will assist the States and other corridors in doing these plannings. Ms. Fleming. Madam Chair, may I add to that as well? Ms. Brown. Yes, please. Ms. Fleming. One of the things that we found that in order to be competitive with other modes that time is of the essence. In order to be time competitive, it is likely that high-speed rail would have to be on dedicated track. Ms. Brown. I didn't hear you. Ms. Fleming. Yes. It is likely that high-speed rail service would have to be on dedicated track, again, to be time competitive with air or highway. And the other factor is I think that when you are talking about the alignment, you would want the alignment to be fairly straight, and you can achieve the higher speeds. So that is also likely to require purchasing rail right-of-way, which as you know can be very costly and problematic. Ms. Brown. Do you see, Ms. Fleming, that we are trying to compete with the air service? I don't necessarily even view it that way. I mean, I don't know what we are trying to do as we develop it, but maybe we are trying to not clog up some of the air space between here and there. Ms. Fleming. I think that gets to one of our points, which is that it is very important to really lay out a vision for the national high-speed program, particularly as it fits in with our whole transportation system. And it is going to be very important that we lay out the goals and objectives we are trying to achieve with our high-speed rail project. And then again, identify--and I am looking to FRA--to identify the expected outcomes, and then to put together some metrics so you can see what progress we are making toward achieving those goals. So for us, that is the starting place for an endeavor of this magnitude. Ms. Brown. Mr. Simmons? Mr. Simmons. Yes, Madam Chair, thank you. I just wanted to say I would applaud your efforts to join with us to get beyond the embarrassment of the delayed train. It really is a signal that we don't have the capacity that we need to build, and it is more than embarrassment. It is a cost to our society, the cost of congestion is a true expense. Now, we can get beyond that. We get beyond that through partnerships with the class one railroads to add the capacity that is necessary, to have the throughput and the network that can do that. And my personal definition of a partnership is when I am willing to reach in my pocket and you are willing to reach into your pocket and make an investment that we can both honor and feel good about and use. And I know that there are those opportunities around the Country today. Ms. Brown. I think as we move forward, it is the vision that we need to work on together, and it has truly got to be a partnership between the Federal Government, the States and the local, and private. So it is a marriage, and it is putting all of these stakeholders together. Ms. Napolitano, you had additional questions? Mrs. Napolitano. Yes, ma'am. Thank you, Madam Chair. And great interest in GAO's reported, GAO has reported extensively on foreign high-speed rail systems. And there are lessons that you have touched on. But is it true that most of those systems are built on government-owned land, so they can create additional track lines if necessary or be able to do all the things they need to do? So I am not quite sure, and this is, I guess, for Mr. Yachmetz, is whether or not this is being part of the consideration of being able to help communities be able to work on. Mr. Yachmetz. If we are looking at very high speed, the equivalent of what you find in Europe or Japan, they have gone off and generally bought new right-of-way, or acquired new right-of-way under their country's laws to develop their systems. If you look at the European model, the European model is basically new rights-of-way right until you get to the outskirts of town, and then shifting over to the historic rail routes into town. And the Japanese model was sort of building their system in what was then the suburbs, but is now the new center cities of many of the communities in Japan. We see there being a mix. We see, as an example, California high-speed rail, most of its system would be acquired on new rights-of-way, but as an example, between San Jose into San Francisco, they would be sharing the current right-of-way with CalTrans. The services that are in, say, from here to Charlotte would, at least initially, be on existing freight railroads right-of-way except in a large part of North Carolina where the State actually continues to own and has always owned the rail line between Raleigh and Charlotte. So we see this being a mixture, but getting back to it, and the answer that Mr. Szabo gave, a key element of this is the environmental process. And while our partner in doing the environmental reviews are the States, part of the environmental reviews do require the engagement of the communities and other interested groups in evaluating options and opportunities. Mrs. Napolitano. Ms. Fleming? Ms. Fleming. I would have to get back to you in terms of the countries that we visited, whether or not it was public land or not. But one of the things that we did hear time and time again was that one of the challenges they did face was having to try to make sure that the rail system was going to be connected with the other parts of the rail in the country. That was a big part of their vision was to make sure that they had connectivity. So as Mark said, that it is very important to up front kind of figure out what your goals are and to make sure that you are going to build in that connectivity from city center to city center. So that is why many of the European countries decided to go with steel wheel and steel rail, rather than maglev in order to be able to do that. But I can get back to you in terms of the public land and percentage that was in the three countries that we went to. Mrs. Napolitano. Would you? Because my understanding is in Southern California in the high-speed rail, BNSF is quite willing, but UP is very unwilling. So while we say that there is a great deal of support for it, unless the railroads play ball, it is not going to be an easy movement. [Information follows:] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Ms. Fleming. I think it can be a deal breaker. Mrs. Napolitano. Okay. The Administrator is gone, so maybe Mr. Yachmetz can answer it. Does the FRA have sufficient resources to handle all of the applications from all the States? Mr. Yachmetz. We will handle those, the applications, but the answer is no, we do not have the resources we need for a mature program. The Recovery Act did not include any new positions for any of the agencies implementing the programs, and in particular FRA. And also, one of the challenges of the Recovery Act is it provided us only the opportunity to take one-quarter of 1 percent to fund oversight, even though the legislation that came out of this Committee that was passed last year, the PRIIA, authorized one percent. And so we are using those funds right now doing the application reviews, and if the situation isn't addressed, we are going to have a serious problem when it comes to oversight of project implementation. Mrs. Napolitano. Madam Chair, I would like to put that down for the record that they do need some additional assistance to be able to carry out what we have asked them to do. The last question, and this is going along with the buy American and helping develop the manufacturing base in the U.S. We have so many areas that are so faced with economic downturn and high unemployment. Is there a way that we can be able to entice, develop the building of some of those systems here in the U.S.? Mr. Busalacchi. Well, let me just say something here. I am sorry, Mark. Mr. Yachmetz. Go ahead. Mr. Busalacchi. We purchased two train sets. I know that the Chairman talked a little bit about it, but we actually purchased two train sets for the---- Mrs. Napolitano. Built in Spain. Mr. Busalacchi. Well, that is what I am going to get to. For the Chicago-Milwaukee Corridor that is in operation, and we will have those sets in two years. Talgo has agreed, the wheels, the steel wheels and the shelves will be made in Spain, but the rest of the trains are going to be made in the United States, 70 percent, just to start with, Congresswoman. And that is going to increase. If we are successful in our grant, then we will also purchase two more train sets. But I believe that we have, coming out of the gate with Talgo, we have shown that we are willing to take this gamble and get these trains built here in the United States. Mrs. Napolitano. Right. But unless Congress commits a larger amount of money, $9 million is not going to do it. Mr. Busalacchi. Well, you are absolutely right. I mean, there is no question about that. And I think in my speech I talked a little bit about it. But there has to be a long-term commitment here. You are absolutely right. I don't want anybody to think that $8 billion is chump change, because it is not. But in order to get manufacturers interested, whether it is Talgo or any of the other train manufacturers, there has to be this attitude that we are going to implement this program and we are going to go forward with dollars, with a commitment. And then I believe people are going to come to the table, Congresswoman. Mrs. Napolitano. But if we are not even putting enough money in--well, I would say enough. You say it is not chump change. I agree with you. But if we are not putting in support for FRA to put additional people to just handle the applications, what are we looking at? Mr. Yachmetz, can you respond to my question? Mr. Yachmetz. Yes. We are strongly committed to implementing the buy America provisions. We are. But beyond that, Secretary LaHood and Deputy Secretary Porcari are very committed to using this opportunity of standing up this program to rejuvenate our manufacturing base. And we are looking for opportunities to help that. I know we are committed. We don't want to go through the it is made over there and assembled here type buy America. We want to make sure that the components and sub-components are also domestic manufacture. And so you will see that reflected in our grant agreements. But as the Secretary says, the key is going to be showing that there is a sustainable market that justifies continued domestic investment and with that we will see the rebirth of our domestic rail supply industry. Mrs. Napolitano. And also the inclusion of the automatic train control. Mr. Yachmetz. That is correct. One of the other points that I would make is that we have also requested, and the House has been generous so far in the 2010 appropriation for research and development in high-speed rail, and part of that is designed to help develop North American solutions to high-speed rail issues that could also help support a domestic manufacturing base. Mrs. Napolitano. Thank you, sir. Thank you, Madam Chair. You have been very generous. Ms. Brown. Thank you. I just want to be clear that I think there is not only a commitment in the Congress for rail passenger, but the commitment and the excitement throughout the Country, we cannot deny it. It is there. The Secretary talked about it, and I can tell you in traveling all over the Country, there is an excitement there. And I think the Administrator mentioned how we have to manage--what is it he said?--he said we have to manage expectations. Well, I am expecting big things also. So I think this is an exciting time to be involved in it, and I want to comment the Secretary of what you all have done in Wisconsin. You participated in our roundtable discussion wherein we had standing room only there, and we were talking about how we were going to put American people back to work because we have thousands of people out of jobs. They have skills. We need to maybe have a pilot program on how we can retrofit and put some of those people back to work. We had manufacturers that were interested. I mean, there is an interest there in what we can do to retrain and employ a lot of American people. And so as we move forward, we will be looking for recommendations on what we could do in Congress and partner with these local communities. Do you want to respond to that, and I will go into my last question. Mr. Yachmetz. Well, let me just give you one example of excitement. There is a GS-12 person who works in my office normally on the RRIF Loan Program. And we had to bring in everybody to review applications, and she was on a team that was reviewing a set of the track one applications. Going home one night, she stepped off Metro and broke her ankle, spent the night in the emergency room, and was in the office at 7 a.m. the next morning working with her team reviewing applications. That is genuine excitement about where we are at with this program. Ms. Brown. Yes. Mr. Secretary, your testimony on ongoing sources of Federal revenue to fund the high-speed rail program, it is important to have a dedicated funding source. What advantages of securing a dedicated funding source for high-speed rail have on a State's ability to develop a high-speed rail system? And I mean, I think that is one of the major problems that we have. We have a lot of interest in local, even though we say we have a lot of interest in the State system, they have not put up the money, and that is several States. So I know we will be reviewing that when we look at applications. But Mr. Secretary, what do you say about the dedicated source? Mr. Busalacchi. Well, you mean it is going to be critical. It is going to be critical to this program. As Ms. Fleming said the Europeans made a commitment, and they did. Ms. Brown. The central government. Mr. Busalacchi. They did. That is exactly right. Ms. Brown. Yes. Mr. Busalacchi. And the government made a commitment and that is how it got done. We look at these systems and we are always amazed. Well, a magic bunny didn't pull them out of a hat. I mean, it took a lot of will and it took a lot of money and a commitment. And Congressman Oberstar has been very supportive. As you know, I sat on the national commission. We made a recommendation. Our recommendation to Congress through the year 2050 is $357 billion that we need to invest in this Country in passenger rail. Now, I know that is a big number, but in order to get this done, Madam Chair, we will have to make that commitment. We are certain of it. And if we do that, Mark will get all his people that he needs, and everybody will be happy, but we do have to commit to it. Ms. Fleming. May I answer that as well? Ms. Brown. Yes. Ms. Fleming. I just want to build on what he said. We have had some attempts in this Country, and they failed in large part due to their inability to sustain political and public support, as well as financial support, enough to carry the project through multiple political cycles, as well as the lengthy project development time line. They also struggled and couldn't overcome the challenge with securing the up front investment needed to get these projects going. So absolutely, sustaining this commitment over the project time line will be critical at all levels, at the Federal, State, local and private sector. Ms. Brown. And Mr. Simmons? Mr. Simmons. I would just echo that, and I am familiar with communities, particularly in our State, and our State level that are working towards setting up dedicated funds to provide the matching dollars. And it will take the leadership at the national level, the regional level, the local level to make the commitments and invest in the infrastructure that we need to build our communities. Ms. Brown. Okay. You all have been so gracious with your time. Any closing remarks that you would like to make, either one? Mr. Busalacchi. Well, Madam Chair, I am going to suck up to you right now. [Laughter.] Mr. Busalacchi. I just want to say thank you. You have really been a breath of fresh air. I have been around, Pat's been around this. We have all been around passenger rail here for years. We remember the gloom and doom days where we couldn't get six people in a room to have a meeting. Now we have a meeting and it is standing room only. And it is because of people like you. Thank you. Ms. Brown. Thank you. And do you know that is true everywhere I go, all over the Country. I mean, it is just amazing the interest. I don't care what city, what State, what hamlet is, the interest is a packed house. Anyone else? Thank you very much. The last panel, they are mostly in order. Okay. Thank you, first of all, for your patience. We are very excited, as you all know, about what is going on in transportation. It went longer than we anticipated, but thank you for being able to stick with us. I would like to welcome the second panel of witnesses. Today, we have Mrs. Petra Todorovich, Director of America 2050. And we have Mr. Tom Carper, Chairman of Amtrak Board of Directors. Okay. We are almost in order. And Mr. Bob Scardelletti, President of the Transportation Communications International Union. Welcome. And Mr. Michael Pracht, President and CEO of US Railcar; and Mr. Robert Baugh, Executive Director of the AFL-CIO Industrial Union Council; Mr. Nicolas Rubio, President of the Cintra US; and lastly but not least, my friend Ed Hamberger, President and CEO of the Association of American Railroads. Let me remind witnesses that under our Committee rules, oral statements must be limited to five minutes, but the entire statement will appear in the record. And we will start with Ms. Todorovich. TESTIMONY OF PETRA TODOROVICH, DIRECTOR, AMERICA 2050; THOMAS CARPER, CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD, NATIONAL RAILROAD PASSENGER CORPORATION, AMTRAK; NICOLAS RUBIO, PRESIDENT, CINTRA, US; ROBERT SCARDELLETTI, PRESIDENT TRANSPORTATION COMMUNICATIONS INTERNATIONAL UNION; MICHAEL P. PRACHT, PRESIDENT AND CEO, US RAILCAR, LLC; ROBERT BAUGH, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE INDUSTRIAL UNION COUNCIL, AFL-CIO; AND EDWARD HAMBERGER, PRESIDENT, ASSOCIATION OF AMERICAN RAILROADS Ms. Todorovich. Thank you Chairwoman Brown, Mrs. Napolitano and Members of the Committee. Thank you for inviting me to testify on the important and timely topic of high-speed rail. I am Director of America 2050, a national urban planning initiative to develop an infrastructure and growth strategy for the United States. We are based at the Independent Regional Plan Association in New York. America 2050 strongly supports the creation of a national network of high-speed rail corridors organized around the Nation's mega-regions. Mega-regions are networks of metropolitan areas like the Northeast, like the Florida mega- region, the Texas Triangle, Southern California, that are connected by travel patterns, economic links and large natural systems. Spanning areas of roughly 300 to 600 miles across, mega- regions are the ideal size for high-speed rail networks, and have densities comparable to Asian and European countries with high-speed rail. Over 70 percent of America's population and jobs are concentrated in the 11 mega-regions that we have identified across the Country. By the year 2050, American will grow by more than 140 million people, a greater number of people than we added from 1950 to 2000, during which we built the entire interstate highway system. Just as limited access highways made daily commutes within metropolitan regions possible, high-speed rail will open the possibility of daily commutes within mega- regions. And high-speed rail stations, when located in city centers, will support the type of energy efficient land development patterns that will reduce carbon emissions and save households and businesses money on transportation and electricity bills. However, going from virtually no high-speed rail system in America to a robust national network is not without its risks. Therefore, the Federal Government should proceed strategically and invest first in corridors that show the greatest promise for generating ridership that will offset long-term operating costs. America 2050 offers one mechanism for assessing which potential high-speed rail corridors will have the greatest ridership demand in our recently released study, Where High- Speed Rail Works Best. We evaluated 27,000 possible pairs of cities of at least 50,000 people or more located between 100 and 500 miles from each other, against the following criteria. We looked at population size, favoring cities with large populations in large metropolitan regions; distance between city pairs, with distances of 150 to 300 miles receiving the highest value; presence and size of local and regional rail transit networks to account for access to high-speed rail stations at the beginning and end of the trip; economic productivity, measured by per capita GDP; auto congestion, measured by the Texas Transportation Institute's travel time index; and whether the city pairs were located within a mega- region to account for the benefits of connecting numerous metropolitan hubs. By weighing these various criteria and calculating them in a formula, we produced a score and a ranking for all 27,000 city pairs. The list of the top 100 city pairs with the greatest potential for ridership demand is provided in my written testimony. The three mega-regions with the most high ranking city pairs were the Northeast, California, and the Midwest. But the presence of any city pair in the top 100 indicates a potential to support high-speed rail service in that corridor. Many on the ground factors will make the difference in whether ridership will materialize. We think the most critical factors will be the integration of high-speed rail within existing local and regional transit networks, the location of stations within walkable dense environments with easy access to major destinations, and the existence of intercity travel markets as demonstrated by current auto or air travel patterns. Our analysis did not take into account on the ground factors such as existing rail infrastructure, matching funds, local political support, preliminary engineering. We are confident that these are factors that the FRA will strongly consider, and they have access to that information through the grant applications. Therefore, we intend for our ranking system to be considered as an additional factor for the FRA to consider, not the only factor. We hope the FRA will develop its own guidelines and methodology for comparing ridership demands across corridors and determining the quality of the financial plans submitted by rail applicants. We hope our study will spur additional research and public discussion about what factors must be in place to create the conditions to maximize high-speed rail investment. Since releasing the report, we have already collected suggestions on additional criteria that would improve this analysis, such as looking at existing air travel patterns, and I am sure Members of this Committee may have suggestions as well. In closing, I urge this Committee to think about ways to secure new long-term revenue sources for high-speed rail in America. High-speed rail needs a dedicated source of funding and a long-term commitment in order to succeed, similar to the process we put in place to build the interstate highway system. Unfortunately, we no longer have the luxury of enjoying the excess capacity built into the infrastructure systems of the 20th century. That capacity is now used up. We must begin building the infrastructure of tomorrow today. Thank you very much. Ms. Brown. Mr. Carper? Mr. Carper. Thank you, Madam Chairman and Congressman Napolitano for the invitation to testify here today on the opportunities and challenges of high-speed intercity passenger rail in America. As the former Mayor of a small Illinois college town that was heavily dependent on Amtrak for its mobility needs, I know the opportunities rail networks offer to communities that wish to develop a livable urban living structure and transportation solutions they need for survival and for growth. Amtrak is ideally positioned to address those needs. We fully support the Administration's vision for high-speed rail and we have strong partnership with States, the Federal Railroad Administration, and freight railroads. We are positioning ourselves to aggressively be the intercity provider of choice. I would like to talk a little bit about the expertise that underpins that strategy before I turn to a discussion of the challenges and opportunities. First slide, please. I am going to continue, Madam Chair. Ms. Brown. Did you call for the slides? Mr. Carper. Yes, I did. Ms. Brown. Okay. I think they have it now. Mr. Carper. There we go. Okay. First slide, please. These photos were taken on our Northeast Corridor, and illustrate something important. Amtrak is a high-speed rail provider. More than half of our daily trains exceed 100 miles an hour. It is a unique system that mixes high-speed Acela and regional trains with commuter and freight service to provide a broad range of public benefit. Slide two. When people hear the term high-speed rail, this is what they have in mind: very fast trains running on brand new grade-separated straight-arrow rights-of-way. This is one of the very successful AVE services in Spain, which operates at 186 miles an hour. Slide three. Here is a slightly different picture. This is the Northeast Corridor, and you can see an Amtrak Acela train on a bridge that was built in 1835, although it now carries 125 mile an hour trains. And here you see the difference between these two approaches. They designed the infrastructure to realize the potential of the equipment, and we designed the equipment to operate within the constraints of the infrastructure. Slide four, please. Both have their merits. The development of high-speed service on the Northeast Corridor began in the early 1960s. Successful high-speed services of all kinds are built on incremental improvements, but whatever the approach, the constraining factors are the same: cost and environmental impact. Slide five, please. Next slide. Here is a comparison of two complementary high-speed projects. On the left we have Amtrak's Harrisburg line, which underwent a round of incremental investment that culminated in the introduction of 110 mile an hour service in 2006. On the right, we see a brand new Madrid service high-speed line finished in 2007 and designed to carry trains at 186 miles an hour. This compares and highlights the importance of relating the investments to benefits. We want to make sure that we get as much return on our money as we can, and we want to do it in a timely manner. Next slide, please. The Northeast Corridor has undergone several rounds of incremental improvements since 1976. On the right, you see the results in terms of the travel market we share with all the airlines. We have also invested in other corridors, putting positive train control systems on the Amtrak-owned Michigan line, and laying the groundwork for 110 mile an hour service on our St. Louis to Chicago line. Amtrak wants more high-speed rail, but we always need to remember that the goal is a competitive trip time. Sometimes, that means raising speeds from 79 to 110; sometimes that means raising speeds from 110 to 150; and it also means the development of much higher speeds where we need to be competitive. Next slide, please. This slide breaks out the funding programs from ARRA, which will finance the next round of development. These grant programs are a tremendous first step, but we definitely need help to develop long-term funding streams to support future needs. The High-speed Rail Initiative Chairman Oberstar proposed would be a potential source of funding, and we strongly support this program. We have partnered with States to apply for ARRA funding. This slide highlights some of the major track projects. Some will be new service. We have also applied for funding to improve service and speed up trains on existing routes Projects to increase frequencies and install PTC will improve capacity and trip times. And equipment is a vital need, and we are working with vendors and the FRA and our State partners to develop specifications and funding plans for new equipment procurement. Last slide. Amtrak will deliver. We must help our Nation retain its economic competitiveness and communities and transportation are a vital component of that. We are eager to develop a partnership that will make these projects possible, and look forward to working closely with the States and the FRA as we build the foundation for a generation of economic growth and prosperity. Thank you, Madam Chairman. Ms. Brown. Leave that last slide up there. There seem to be a major part that is not connected. If you look at Florida, that little dot on there, it stops right there in Georgia and it doesn't go to Jacksonville to Orlando. This system was developed how long ago? Before I came to Congress. I mean, I know it was developed---- Mr. Carper. The high-speed rail designations, Madam Chairman? Ms. Brown. Yes. We need to update it. You can't stop in Georgia and then pick up somewhere down there in Florida. It needs to be connected. It doesn't have to be high speed. I mean, several of the Members have pointed out places in this particular that are not connected. Mr. Carper. Duly noted, Madam Chairman. [Laughter.] Ms. Brown. I understand that you have to leave. Listen, let me just ask you one quick question. I know it is dedicated sources of revenue, and we have been struggling with Amtrak, trying to move it forward and work out some of the problems. And I can say, from New York to D.C., I think we can do it in two and a half hours. And if we fix some of the tunnels and trains, we could do it maybe in two hours. But from Boston to Washington it is eight hours. And so if other factors other than the conditions of the tracks, I mean, we are talking about developing high-speed on systems that are already developed. What do you think we need to do to move forward? What are some of the recommendations? In other words, we are starting out and the towns and communities are already developed, whether we are talking about someone stopping in this area. I am 100 percent in favor of it, but we don't want to blow the whistle, or the train has to go through the communities. So we need to do some things in those communities so that we can have the rail going through. Mr. Carper. Well, first of all on the Northeast Corridor, I am not sure of the total time between Boston and Washington, D.C., but I think---- Ms. Brown. I think it is eight hours. I tried to put somebody on the train and they wouldn't do it. Mr. Carper. I believe on the Acela service or even on the regional service, it is somewhat lower than that, but I will get back to you on that. Let me simply say we can cut some trip time down on Northeast Corridor service, and I can provide you---- Ms. Brown. You say we can or we can't? Mr. Carper. We can. Ms. Brown. Okay. Mr. Carper. We certainly can. If you go back to one of the comments that I made about with the amount of resources that are available, to cut 15 minutes off is perhaps a number that we could deal with. But to get down to something about half an hour off, it is in the range of multiple billions of dollars. And when you look in the incremental approach out in the other parts of the Country, the things that we can do to help accessibility in our stations and to bring some new service on line and to put some service in the Midwest, we could get many things done with that amount of money. And those are the things that we are balancing that will need to be balanced on how we allocate limited resources. Ms. Brown. I am not disagreeing with you. I just want to point out that, okay, fine, if we can only cut it down 15 minutes, but one of the complaints that I get is on time. So if we could, I mean, it doesn't matter if it is going to run in two hours and 15 minutes, but the fact is it is delayed by two hours going and coming. Mr. Carper. The Northeast Corridor is pretty much the only service that we have where we control our own destiny. We manage the railroad, transit and freight. In my part of the Country, in the Midwest and throughout the system, we work with our State partners and there are some good investments to be made that can ensure a much, much better on time performance by making some. And we have just lists and lists and lists, and I could name some in the Midwest that would be good investments for relatively small amounts of money that can help that on time performance. And I agree with you 100 percent, if we are going to continue to attract new riders, and not only get them one time, but to have them continue to come back, we need to be able to arrive at the station and leave when we say, and arrive at the destination when we say. And we are working towards that and are putting good use of funds that were allocated to Amtrak at one point, $3 billion, to work on many of those things, Madam Chairman. Ms. Brown. I am sorry for the rest of the Members. He has to leave, I guess. He has to catch a train, and not a plane, I hope. [Laughter.] Ms. Brown. Ms. Napolitano? Mrs. Napolitano. I really don't have very many questions on Amtrak other than just a comment, because part of it in California, there is Amtrak service. And I have had some complaints about it being late. It is not always on time. And I have visited their facility, their center, their routing center, if you want to call it that. Mr. Carper. Yes. Mrs. Napolitano. And I am very impressed. So how do we continue to move forward, and as you see on your own map, there is very little on the west side of the United States. There is hardly anything in the central. How do we connect all of those to be able to ensure that people have options for travel and be able to get where they need to go? Mr. Carper. Well, it is interesting that you bring that up, because one of the things that we are looking very seriously at at Amtrak is not only improving the system we have, but seeing where we can make incremental connectivity improvements throughout the Country. Bringing new service on line, as this Committee knows, much better than I, is a monumental task. But making the incremental investments in the system and looking for opportunities through the system that is in place, that the FRA will be rolling out here this winter, will be a start with that. And I couldn't agree more with the comments that were made in the previous panel. Early success and measurable success will be very helpful in expanding that system. Again, it is important to understand where I come from. I come from a community that had no air service, no scheduled bus service, and was 250 miles with a State university from Chicago, Illinois. This was the mode of transportation for students. We doubled the service in Illinois two years ago with tremendous success in ridership. It did not diminish the morning service. Now we have two round trips a day. We went for three decades with one round trip a day, and doubling that service was a monumental success. I have seen it work. I have seen economic development spurred by these incremental improvements. And this is at 79 miles an hour, with improved on time performance, better quality equipment, and increased frequency. We can really add and be a tool in the economic development revival of my part of the Country and the rest of the Country. So I commend you for, again Madam Chairman, for what you have done. I was in the battle in the '90s as a Mayor trying to save our service. Ms. Brown. Thank you. And I do know that we talked during that time period because there was a move to cut out the services viewed as not profitable. And in your area and in many areas, the only kind of service that people have is the train service. If it wasn't for the train service, they don't have bus service. They don't have air service. They would not be connected at all. And I tell people it is not just the trains. It is homeland security. We have to be able to move people. Mr. Carper. Madam Chairman, you are absolutely correct. And the Illinois Legislature recognized that and doubled the State investment to double that service, and the results have been extraordinary. And part of that is the service that Secretary Busalacchi was talking about, because we do participate in the Hiawatha, the partnership agreement with the State of Wisconsin. We have seen it work first-hand, and I have seen it work on other corridors, other Amtrak corridors, and the incremental approach of improvement, without giving up the vision of higher speed and high-speed rail, is a good use of taxpayer dollars, I believe, and will show some immediate results. Ms. Brown. Last question. Under the dedicated source of revenue, having a dedicated source from the State, and you knowing that what you are getting from the Federal Government, how would that affect how you plan and how you all run a railroad as Chair of the Amtrak Board? Mr. Carper. Well, first and foremost, and I wish CEO Boardman were here today to be able to answer this, but from my perspective, one of the things we are trying to do with Amtrak is put together a management team and start laying the groundwork for well beyond my tenure on the Board into the future. And understandably, we need to do that. It will allow us to plan and to rotate equipment in and out, and to do some planning and scheduled maintenance, rather than waiting and hoping for a funding mechanism. So to run any successful business or any concern, you need to have the resources to plan. And that will allow us to look into the future. And the payback, we believe and know from past experience, should be a good payback for the citizens of the United States. Ms. Brown. Thank you. Mrs. Napolitano. Well, thank you, Madam Chair. But lastly, so you won't be late wherever you need to go, but one of the things that when you were showing your slide in regard to the systems upgrading or the new systems in Europe versus the systems that you have, that you contend with on Amtrak, has there been concerted effort to look at what it would take to be able to upgrade to address those areas, to be able to utilize higher speed instead of just 100 or 110, but rather 180 or more, to be able then to truly be a high-speed rail? Mr. Carper. I don't want to speak out of turn here. I am certain I can bring you information on what it would take to upgrade the Northeast Corridor, which is right now the only corridor that we have control over. The other corridors would perhaps likely be more in line with what you saw on the slide. So, and we would be happy to get that information to you. Mrs. Napolitano. I would love to be able to have that, Madam Chairs, because then you have an idea of what we are looking at for the future, and it is probably way beyond my time in Congress. Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr. Carper. Thank you. Ms. Brown. Thank you. You are dismissed. [Laughter.] Mr. Carper. Thank you, Madam Chair. Ms. Brown. If you all could just be patient with us. Mr. Rubio I think has a plane, and we are running late, so I know everybody has probably got somewhere to go, but if you could go next, please, and thank you, everybody else, for your patience. Mr. Rubio. Thank you, Mrs. Chair, and I will be more than happy to wait if I can help, and I will be more than happy to miss my plane if that helps in all this effort. Thank you for this opportunity today. My name is Nicolas Rubio. I am the President of Cintra, US. Cintra is a transportation infrastructure developer. We have been in this business now for 50 years. In the United States, we are currently responsible for the development of three new construction projects in Texas, and we manage existing roadway assets in Illinois and Indiana. Combined, these five assets represent an investment value of over $11.6 billion, with an equity commitment of over $2.8 billion. On a worldwide scale, our group manages major infrastructure assets including more than 1,900 miles of highways with a total investment of $29 billion. We also manage seven airports in the U.K, including London Heathrow Airport, tube lines, the lead private operator in the London Underground transportation system. We have been in this business and we have been as well involved in the development of high-speed rail, with nearly 413 miles built of high-speed rail infrastructure very much in line with what you have seen in that slide. Private involvement in the development of rail infrastructure is not new. In fact, as has been mentioned here, freight rail models are radically different in Europe than in the U.S., with much deeper involvement of the private sector and a clear advantage in efficiency and usage on this side of the Atlantic. In its beginning, high-speed rail in Europe and Japan, as has been mentioned as well, was owned and developed through conventional delivery methods in which governments took the risk associated with the design, bid, construction, finance and maintenance aspects of the project. In most cases, the operation of the passenger service was adopted by government- owned operators as well. Since the beginning of this decade, nevertheless, high- speed rail development in Europe has shifted away from this purely public model towards a partnership-based model that encourages private sector participation. While a multitude of ownership, development and operational alternatives could be considered, different European countries ended up opting for very similar P3 schemes to develop high-speed rail, following a model separating the provision, operation and maintenance of the infrastructure on one side, and the ownership of rolling stock and the provision of transportation services to final users on the other one. Ultimately, the European Union has opted to introduce legislation ensuring that any rail operator will be able to provide transportation services in any European network. Even with private funds, the development of this rail network requires strong public financial support. Many of the social benefits of high-speed rail transportation, like its impact in improving the environment, cannot be easily converted into actual project revenues. Other modes of transportation take advantage of the availability of low cost infrastructure already built, which true global cost are not always being charged to users. We are convinced that involving private infrastructure developers in its implementation is paramount to maximizing efficiency in the provision of a high-speed rail network. This will not only provide access to new sources of funds, it will also reduce the overall cost, accelerate its implementation, and maximize the leverage of limited public funds. Public- private partnerships shift the financial risk of transportation projects to the private sector and away from the government or public taxpayer. Through the early investment of private funds, we can anticipate much needed infrastructure, with significant impact in global economic development, as has been mentioned as well. As recent examples in the U.S. demonstrate, the P3 model is unchallenged when looking to maximize output for taxpayer money invested. In Texas alone, our company is developing through three partnerships with the State, in Dallas, Fort Worth and Austin, more than $8 billion of congestion-relieving roadway projects with only $990 million taxpayer dollars utilized. We were asked to come here, and one of the questions was, what do private developers need to see happen to bring them to the table for U.S. high-speed rail development. And there were many things said today. Susan Fleming mentioned that the advantage of high-speed is that it is reliable, safe and timely mode of transportation. And I will say those three factors are what the private sector would be looking for to invest here: reliability, safety of valuable investment, and timeliness. Ultimately, the development of a high-speed rail network in the United States will face many challenges. But, with the desire and the commitment of both the public and private sector working together, I strongly believe that those challenges will be overcome to the benefit of the citizens we are all honored to serve. Thank you very much. Ms. Brown. The one question I would ask to you is what is it, we talk a lot about the partnership is the State, the local, the Federal, but I think the private, in my opinion, could play an equal role. And what do you think are some of the things that we could do to leverage that, to encourage the investors to invest? For example, I was talking to some investors, and one of the things that they indicated would be to see some tax credits. So what would you recommend to be some of the ways that we can entice that private investment? Because we do have limited dollars and we watch the system develop around the world, and transportation really is a commitment of the government. It is not going to pay for itself like you hear some of my colleagues talking. It doesn't pay for itself anywhere in the world. Mr. Rubio. Madam Chair, private investment in infrastructure is a long shot. It is a very long-term investment. I think there are three things that are needed. One is commitment from the public authority. The second one is alignment of the stakeholders that will bring reliability, credibility to the whole thing. And the third one I would say is realism. Try to develop projects that make economic sense. Ms. Brown. Thank you. Ms. Napolitano, do you have a question? Mrs. Napolitano. Very quickly, and welcome, Mr. Rubio. The systems you have in Texas, are they passenger, freight? Mr. Rubio. The three systems I have mentioned in Texas are highways. They are not rails. We do not run rail operations in the U.S. We run highway operations. Mrs. Napolitano. Highways, so that is truck traffic. Mr. Rubio. That is passenger and truck traffic. Those are managed lanes, basically adding capacity to existing highways and maintaining the whole capacity in the long term, and getting users of those managed lanes to pay for the use. Mrs. Napolitano. So they are tolled, toll lanes? Mr. Rubio. Only in managed lanes, only the additional capacity that is built is being tolled. The actual capacity has been maintained. It has been upgraded and it is not being tolled. Mrs. Napolitano. Okay. The partnerships you spoke of, can you give us a rough estimate of the percentage that each one has been able to help with, contribute, be part of? Mr. Rubio. Excuse me? Mrs. Napolitano. The percentages, your percentage into making it happen, the county, the State, the Fed? Mr. Rubio. Yes. I mentioned three projects, two of them in Dallas and Forth Worth, and another one in Austin. The global initial investment in those three projects is $6 billion in construction. On the long term, the maintenance investment will add another $3 billion on top of that. And all that needed a contribution from the State of $990 million. The rest is being paid through the tolls that are going to be collected in the coming 50 years, only for those users using the managed lanes. Mrs. Napolitano. And that is going to be feasible? Will it pay for itself? Mr. Rubio. I want to keep my job. I hope it will be feasible. [Laughter.] Mrs. Napolitano. Well, the reason I ask is we had a freeway in California, 91, that was supposed to be profitable, and ended up not being profitable. So pardon me if I ask, because those are one of the things that we have found to be evident. Now, just thank you, Madam Chair. That is it. Ms. Brown. Thank you. And you are dismissed. Mr. Rubio. Thank you. Ms. Brown. OK, Mr. Scardelletti? Mr. Scardelletti. Thank you, Madam Chairman, Congresswoman Napolitano. My name is Robert Scardelletti, and I am the International President of Transportation Communications/IAM. Our union, together with other rail unions, represent over 150,000 workers on America's freight, passenger and commuter lines. TCU/IAM is the largest union on Amtrak, representing six crafts. All rail labor has long supported high-speed rail in the United States, which included the passage of the Passenger Rail and Investment and Improvement Act of 2008, PRIIA, and the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, ARRA. This historic commitment to intercity and high-speed rail will create and sustain thousands of good jobs. The passage of PRIIA and the appropriations in ARRA is a good start for what can be a great opportunity for high-speed rail in our Country. Labor protections and requirements to preserve existing collective bargaining agreements must be administered fairly and consistent with the law. Davis-Bacon prevailing wage requirements must fully apply to all covered construction work. Buy America requirements must be applied and strongly enforced. Amtrak and its workforce must be fully utilized as the backbone of high-speed rail in America. Amtrak is by law America's national passenger rail carrier and the only current provider of high-speed rail through its Acela Express service in the Northeast Corridor. Amtrak has an established national network which includes an extensive reservation system, existing rolling stock, statutory relationships with the freight railroads for trackage rights, and decades of demonstrated compliance with all Federal rail laws. Amtrak has also partnered with States and local governments to provide passenger rail service for decades. Amtrak has a track record of adhering to various grant requirements imposed by the Federal Government. Most importantly, Amtrak has a dedicated and very experienced workforce. Collective bargaining has existed with Amtrak since its creation in 1971. And current labor agreements are in place with all the companies' unions. High-speed rail is just that, railroad work. Amtrak should receive credit for complying with all railroad statutes and not be placed at a competitive disadvantage. For example, Amtrak as a rail carrier has financial obligations to its employees through the Railroad Retirement Act. If another entity seeks to provide service, but does so with the intention of evading, for example, one law, the rail retirement law, that entity could artificially undercut Amtrak on a cost basis. Potential providers of service must not be allowed to evade the railroad statutes so that all applicants will be judged on a level playing field. All rail labor supports a strong buy America requirement, as contained in both the Amtrak statute and ARRA. Almost all existing major high-speed rail equipment manufacturers are foreign. Buy America in this context must mean that even if the developer is foreign-owned, any equipment must be assembled entirely in the United States. Amtrak, with its skilled and unionized shop craft employees, should be the first choice to repair and maintain all new high-speed rail equipment. Foreign companies should not be allowed to avoid the application of railroad statutes. Employee protections under law should be seen as a means of integrating the existing workforce into high-speed rail and expanding intercity service. Existing collective bargaining agreements can assure that new operations have access to experienced and trained workers and, in the process, minimize labor uncertainty. In summary, funding for Amtrak and its current services must not be cut. We call upon Congress and the Administration to fully fund Amtrak's capital and operating needs at its currently authorized level, and any new high-speed rail programs must be fully funded. We must be committed to the long haul. Good labor policy and sound transportation policy are not inconsistent propositions. In fact, high-speed rail in this Country will succeed if workers are brought into the process and treated fairly. The benefits will be the best high-speed rail system in the world. Thank you, Madam Chairman. Ms. Brown. Thank you. Mr. Pracht? We are going to have questions. We will just hear the rest of the testimony, if you don't mind. Mr. Pracht? Mr. Pracht. Good afternoon, Madam Chairman, Members of this Subcommittee, and staff. My name is Mike Pracht. I am the President and CEO of US Railcar, a newly formed American-owned Ohio-based company with a business plan to resume manufacturing American-made passenger trains in the United States. It is a real privilege to be here. Thank you for this opportunity. As an almost 30-year veteran of the rail transportation industry, I have never seen the level of excitement, support, and commitment for passenger rail that exists today in both Houses of Congress on both sides of the aisle, and with such determination put forth by the current Administration. Prior to taking this position, I held several key positions at two of the world's leading rail transportation companies, Ansaldo from Italy and Siemens from Germany. Six months ago, I became involved with a group of investors from Columbus, Ohio led by Barry Fromm, an entrepreneur with a passion for trains, a desire to make a difference, and a vision for putting American passengers back on America's tracks. I would like to just take a minute and acknowledge Barry back there, for his leadership in this area. Barry owns and runs and is the founder of a company called Value Recovery Group, which works at several levels of Federal, State, and local government in areas that include distressed asset management, brownfield and economic development, and energy management. Two of Barry's larger accounts include the U.S. Departments of Energy and Education. Earlier this year, Barry acquired the assets of Colorado RailCar. This company, entrepreneurial in its own right, developed a modern version of a bygone self-propelled train set called the diesel multiple unit, or DMU. This product was originally developed by the Budd Company back in 1947. Like many other American innovations, DMUs went on to become a core component in the fleet pools of just about every modern industrialized nation around the world. Unfortunately, as with the Budd Company and other iconic manufacturers like Pullman and St. Louis Car, Colorado RailCar fell victim to a market with insufficient investment, lack of priority, and missed opportunity. The original Colorado RailCar DMU was developed in 2003 and is currently the only FRA-compliant DMU in production today. Ten of these units operate in daily revenue service in Florida, Oregon, and Alaska, each meeting and/or exceeding their customers' expectations. I have traveled extensively in these last few months, welcomed by transportation agencies across the country with renewed interest in purchasing the US Railcar DMU. This assumes, of course, we can attract sufficient investment to secure our business plan. In so doing, we are not here seeking public subsidy for a private venture. Rather, we are encouraging continued public investment in passenger rail and support for American manufacturing and American jobs. We are willing to put our business plan to the competitive test with sufficient resolve and entrepreneurial spirit. However, we are concerned about doing so on an uneven playing field with deep-pocketed foreign suppliers, some of whom receive home government subsidies and others of whom practice predatory pricing. It is important to note that there are currently no American-owned passenger rail car manufacturers in the United States. All existing rail cars are produced by foreign suppliers from Europe and Asia. These companies assemble locally, however typically import 40 percent of their content from abroad and export most, if not all, of their profits back home where they are then reinvested in foreign technology. My company's investors are committed to reestablishing an American-owned company that engineers, designs, manufactures, and develops in America. We believe several elements will be prerequisite to the success of US Railcar and the country's renewed passenger rail initiative as a whole. We encourage strong Federal leadership in the following five areas: One, approval of the Ohio Rail Development Commission's TIGER application. US Railcar has joined with the Ohio RDC in a public-private partnership to produce and ultimately maintain trains at a new rail car manufacturing and maintenance facility to be established just outside of Columbus. Two, support for the FRA's proposed 2010 High-speed Rail Research and Development Program. This important initiative will help new start and new entry American companies develop and advance the state of American technology to better compete with foreign suppliers. Three, effective implementation of the PRIIA next- generation equipment pool that must include DMUs made in America by American-owned companies. This program will assure product standardization, adequate sources of domestic supply, and reduce much of the wasteful costs associated with the one- off vehicle procurements all too typical in the transit sector. Four, consistent administration of PRIIA Buy America standards. Implementing these new Buy America standards with resolve will test our national commitment to establishing a new American rail car manufacturing industry. Five, a sustained commitment and funding for high-speed intercity passenger rail. Perhaps the most critical in the mix, sufficient levels of capital cannot be attracted from the private sector without confidence in a sustainable and reliable market. US Railcar applauds the leadership of this Committee and encourages the establishment of a dedicated funding source to assure continuity. Thank you again for this opportunity to testify. I am happy to answer your questions, and I am really excited about these times. Ms. Brown. Thank you. Mr. Baugh? Mr. Baugh. Chairwoman Brown and Member of the Committee, we thank you for the opportunity to testify here today. I am speaking for the 10 million members of the AFL-CIO and the affiliates of the Industrial Union Council, which are the manufacturing unions of the AFL-CIO. With high-speed rail, the Nation stands at the crossroads of opportunity for domestic investments in innovation, new technology and energy efficiency that will save jobs, create new jobs, and new industries, and revitalize American manufacturing. However, while we can be certain that the rail lines will be built here, there is no guarantee that they and all the related technology will be made here. What is needed is an environmental economic development policy to guarantee that these investments are made in the United States and that they result in good, sustainable jobs. It has been commented on this Committed earlier today the situation in this Country is dismal. We are at 10 percent unemployment. The real number is closer to 15 percent unemployment. We have lost jobs for 21 straight months. It is frankly a continuation of what has happened in the last decade of manufacturing. We lost 5 million manufacturing jobs. We saw 40,000 manufacturing facilities close in this Nation. And over 1 million of those jobs were professional technical jobs, engineers, designers, developers, people with the skills that give us the technical capacity as a Nation to make things. These came with record trade deficits, $701 billion in 2007, of which it was driven by an $850 billion deficit in manufactured goods; $500 billion of that was in manufactured goods alone. The rest was oil. Even with record oil prices, the manufacturing deficit has been driving our record trade deficits. We are looking at another record deficit this coming year with China, and China will account for 75 percent of the manufactured good deficit in our overall trade deficit. It is shocking, and we ought to be concerned about it. The industrial Midwest and the State of Michigan, with real unemployment approaching 25 percent, sit at ground zero, surrounded by an army of dislocated, discouraged skilled workers, engineers, designers, scientists, and closed facilities. And they represent the best of our Nation's skills and technical capacity to create, innovate and manufacture the goods needed for a sustainable future. We have ignored the maxim: It matters where things are made. It is time to change direction. Our Nation is stumbling towards an economic development policy, one that says we want auto. One that says we are making a new investment in energy policy. And now we have a manufacturing strategist for the Country, which is a first, Ron Bloom. It is a good thing. It is what our competitors internationally do. We have got to start acting like them as a Nation and think about the economic development policies of their country. High-speed rail investments like the ones in new energy infrastructure must be designed to create the jobs here. This is the challenge. Three decades ago, we led the world in renewable energy technology. Today, we built last year a record 8,300 megawatts of wind turbines in this Nation. Less than half were made here. These are technologies the rest of the world in the last three decades went ahead of us on. And it is exactly the same situation in high-speed rail. And the challenge there may even be greater. The innovation, knowledge and experience of building and maintaining high-speed rail is embedded in the nations that have led the way, and we are far behind. We have one firm, Maglev, that is dealing with the next generation of high-speed rail technology. We have some limited experience in the Northeast Corridor with high-speed rail. And these are examples of the broad range of technologies an advanced manufacturing economy like ours should be capable of delivering. But as has been noted here, the leading technologies in the world are in other countries that have been doing this for several decades. The Industrial Union Council joined with our transportation labor brothers and sisters in support of a broad program of investment in our transportation infrastructure, and in particular in high-speed rail. The Recovery Act made an important statement about that with the inclusion of buy America, and this has been a very enlightening discussion here this afternoon. We supported that. We worked very hard on it. But I think we have to recognize that is tactical move, not a strategic move. It doesn't do what we need to do. The challenge is to develop a high-speed rail industry, get the entire production system from the supply chain to engineering to R&D. That takes scale. That takes financial leverage. And that takes cooperation. Right now, the money will be spent in many places around the Country. It doesn't give you the leverage to negotiate an entire production system from another country. And that is what you want to capture, not just a rail car assembly operation. We want to talk about the entire technology in the system. And we have to be able to move and negotiate at scale to achieve those opportunities and have these things done here. It requires the ability to think in that larger context, to be able to say we want to do something about the Midwest, and target this idle capacity. And within the macro context of this, the goal should be to leverage and encourage comparable systems and common design by seeking the best technology in the world. We have a set of recommendations, too, for Congress. We must make an aggressive, sustained commitment of the resources. We must link our R&D to actual job and employment opportunities in this Country, and we support the idea of an R&D network to support the high-speed rail industry. We must enforce and strengthen buy America and other domestic investment provisions, including putting the waivers on the internet so people can see them and even compete on this. This is silly. We have the technology. We have a series of other recommendations on how to strengthen those provisions. We believe we must enact other forms of investment criteria for making these products here. And finally, we think that the Congress needs to use its financial leverage here to encourage regional-national collaboration to achieve these set of goals, common design, systems comparability, attracting the world's best technology, mobilizing private capital, and establishing a domestic state of the art high-speed rail production system for the United States. And finally, we would join with Brother Scardelletti in saying that we must actually obey our own labor laws in this Country to protect the interests of the workers that work in these industries. We look forward to working with this Committee to develop a high-speed rail system in this Country that is made in America. Thank you. Ms. Brown. Mr. Hamberger? Mr. Hamberger. Madam Chairwoman, Congresswoman Napolitano, on behalf of the members of the AAR, thank you for the opportunity to testify this evening on the opportunities and challenges flowing from expanded high-speed passenger rail in America. Madam Chairwoman, you opened this hearing by praising the President for his leadership in this area, and that is certainly well deserved. But having worked with you and this Committee and having seen you run this hearing this afternoon, I believe I would be remiss for not making sure we get on the record that there has been leadership from Congress in this area. Chairman Oberstar, your leadership here in this Subcommittee, Mr. Mica, Mr. Shuster and the entire Committee, successfully last year passed the Passenger Rail Improvement Act, the Passenger Rail Safety Improvement Act. And so thank you. I will just join Secretary Busalacchi in thanking you and the full Committee for that leadership in the past, and look forward to working with you in the future. Let me start by saying that I want to emphasize that our Nation's privately owned freight railroads support development of passenger rail and our actions to date prove this fact. We are already successful partners with passenger rail across the Country. Outside of the Northeast Corridor, almost all Amtrak trains operate over tracks owned and maintained by freight railroads. In addition, hundreds of millions of commuter trips each year occur on commuter rail systems that operate at least partially over tracks or rights-of-way owned by freight railroads. As the FRA's recently released Vision for High-speed Rail in America points out, both freight and passenger railroads provide enormous public benefits to our Nation, including reduced traffic congestion, reduced fuel consumption, lower greenhouse gas emissions, and less pollution. Railroads, both passenger and freight, are the smart, sensible way to help solve America's 21st century transportation challenges. And that is why AAR is a member of OneRail, a new coalition that brings together both passenger and freight rail stakeholders, including labor and environmental representatives, to advance railroading nationwide. OneRail supports increased public and private investment in freight rail, and also supports State efforts to seek an ongoing dedicated funding source for intercity passenger rail expansion. And one of the reasons that we were able to coalesce around these goals is jobs. One billion dollars of capital investment in the freight railroad industry conservatively produces 20,000 jobs in the economy. That is using Department of Commerce, Bureau of Employment Administration multiplier effects. So we believe that the money should be spent, and I want to emphasize that these are jobs that stay within our borders. There is no way to in any way outsource those jobs. All of us involved in this effort know that reshaping the Nation's passenger transportation system with expanded rail choices will bring significant challenges. Administrator Szabo said it best earlier this afternoon when he observed that America deserves the world's best passenger rail system, but not at the expense of impairing what is already the world's best freight passenger system. Mr. Szabo understands that the economy depends on freight rail. The combination of safety, efficiency, environmental friendliness and affordability of our freight rail network is unmatched by any other freight rail system in the world, and provides a huge competitive advantage for America's farmers and manufacturers as they compete in the global economy. Now, ideally, freight railroads and intercity passenger railroads would operate in completely separate worlds, but that is not practicable at this time. As a result, high-speed passenger rail will, in many cases, have to share tracks, or at least the right-of-way, with freight railroads. Clearly, each freight rail corridor is unique and is governed by its own circumstances, but I would like to highlight four general principles that we believe should apply in all circumstances of joint use. First, safety must be the top priority. Railroads are an extremely safe way to move both people and freight, and everyone involved in railroading wants to make sure it stays that way. Second, capacity concerns must be properly addressed. Increased demand for rail transport will require more capacity for both freight and passenger rail. Notwithstanding the recent downturn in the economy, freight rail will be asked to carry as much as 100 percent more freight by the year 2035. Third, freight railroads should receive full compensation for use of their assets. It should be remembered that no comprehensive passenger rail system in the world operates today without significant government assistance. Once you, as policymakers, agree on the scope of passenger railroading in this Country, you must be willing to fund both operating and capital on a long-term basis. Fourth, freight railroads must be adequately protected from liability risks that would not have resulted but for the added presence of passenger rail service to their networks. These are critical challenges, but they are hardly insurmountable. Freight railroads are committed to working with Members of Congress, the Administration, the States and passenger interests to implement a strategy that will allow both freight and passenger rail to grow in the national interest. Thank you for allowing me to be here today. Ms. Brown. Thank you. I think I want to start with you. If Mr. Oberstar was here, he would give us a history of the rail in the United States. So we are going to bypass that. But I want to know, I understand most of the rail is owned by freight. How does AAR plan to work with the State and high- speed rail operators to clarify issues of liability? I mean, that is a major one, and have you engaged the freight line? I know we have had some discussions. Mr. Hamberger. With respect to liability, and that is why I, of course, mentioned it in our testimony, liability is one of the key issues. GAO has issued a report on that, I believe, earlier this year. We are not seeking legislation at this point. ``To clarify'' was already in the statute limiting liability at $200 million for a passenger rail accident. And I think that each of our members has been able to work out with their State and local partners the ability to address that issue. I was talking earlier with the representatives from the States for Passenger Rail, and I believe we will be getting together and talking about it on a broader scale to see if there are other areas of agreement that can be reached. But primarily, it is a contract issue worked out between the host railroad and the passenger provider. Ms. Brown. How do you think that positive train control fits into this as we move forward? Mr. Hamberger. Well, Congress, of course, mandated last year positive train control on all track that has passengers on it. I think, again, that is an area where the host railroad will have to sit down with Amtrak and with the commuter rail operators and try to allocate appropriately the cost of the PTC to be put there, because of course, Congress also mandated positive train control wherever toxic by inhalation hazardous materials, TIH, hazardous materials are transported. So that is a cost that would not be a passenger cost. So that kind of discussion I suspect will begin at some point in the not too distant future once we have the final rules out of the FRA. Ms. Brown. Who are the partners with the OneRail? Mr. Hamberger. I will get that for you for the record. I don't want to miss anybody, but I know UTU is a member, States for Passenger Rail, the Natural Resources Defense Council, Amtrak, the NRP, the National Rail Passenger Association. So it is a pretty good group, APTA, American Public Transit Association. Ms. Brown. Is labor a part of that? Mr. Hamberger. The only one right now is UTU, but thank you for asking because I am trying to get Mr. Scardelletti to join, and I think he would be a very valuable member if he were to sign up. Ms. Brown. We need all our representatives at the table. Mr. Hamberger. Yes. Ms. Brown. Ms. Napolitano? Mrs. Napolitano. Thank you, Madam Chair. And it is great to be able to listen to the dialogue from all the panelists. And to Mr. Baugh, I have questioned some of the folks that are working on the high-speed rail in California whether they consider maglev. And they tell me it is prohibitive, yet I heard one of my Mayors, from Cerritos, say that in Europe, some of them were considering transferring from their current system to maglev. Question: do you have any information on that? Mr. Baugh. All that I know is that it is the next generation of rail technology, and it is being used in Germany, and it is being used in China, and it is being used in Singapore. And it is a technology that is out there. I would be happy to have the maglev people, I don't know if they are still here, but I would be happy to come and talk with you and share the information with you. I think the point I was trying to make here is that there is a number of high-speed rail technologies out there and our point is that they are not here, with some minor exceptions, and that it should be in our interest to utilize our financial leverage from the investments we are going to make as a government and a Country to capture the best technologies in the world and have them made here. This is no different, frankly, coming from manufacturing and having dealt with trade, this is no different than what is being done to us for the last decade by governments that actually have strategies around developing and targeting industries in their country. And that is all we are asking is we are going to spend the money, then let's do it here. Mrs. Napolitano. Well, my concern is that I am hearing that it is more expensive, yet if this is the future, then why are we not going parallel to finding what there is and how to work with it or how to implement it in the future, or build the systems so that in the future they may be incorporated? Mr. Baugh. Madam Chairman, Congresswoman Napolitano, I would beg off on this one to actually talk to the people who know more about the technologies than I. I think that is really the point. Ms. Brown. And let me just clear up my position, because I have made sure that I have not advocated one system or another. I don't think I should be in the position to tell the State or the Federal Government which system to use. I am sure when we negotiate and when we partner, we will get proposals. Every last one of those countries I have been to, they have proposals. They want to participate. They are ready to cut deals. And so what is the best deal for the taxpayer? And I never want to put myself in the position because I like all of them. And what we have to do is get the one that is tailored to our system. I mean, whether it is the French or the English or the Italians or the Germans or--I have been in all the systems, and it is just so exciting to be able to go from one place to another, 300 miles in two hours and a half, or 200 miles in one hour and 15 minutes. But keep in mind, all of those tracks in that system was invented for them. And so therefore, their freight is not running over those systems, not those high-speed systems, nowhere I have been. And so I don't know that we should be in the business of telling the government which system. I mean, that is going to be negotiated. It is going to be bid on and it is going to be the best deal for the taxpayers. And that has kind of been my position. But I want to go back to Mr. Scardelletti. Mrs. Napolitano. Do I have two minutes left? Ms. Brown. Go ahead. Take all the time you like. I thought you were finished. I am sorry. Mrs. Napolitano. Oh, no. [Laughter.] Mrs. Napolitano. Well, actually, Mr. Baugh, one of the things that was mentioned was the enforcement of trade agreement violations, and that, to me, is a great issue because in the past I know they have been wanting to have the inspection of some of the rail cars south of the border, by technicians that we don't know whether they were trained to the level that our men and women are trained in the U.S., or required to have training. And have we done a good job of getting the State Department to go after the violations so that we are ensured that the cars that those operating, whether they are carrying hazardous material or not, are actually going safely through our communities, where there are high residential areas? Mr. Baugh. Congresswoman, I would defer to the people who have the expertise. I will get that question answered and get you the information back. Mrs. Napolitano. Thank you. And I know that Mr. Hamberger, you knew I was going to talk to you, sir. [Laughter.] Mrs. Napolitano. But I am very concerned about the Union Pacific in California not really coming to the table on working with the High-speed Rail Authority, and hopefully also with the Councils of Government through which the system is going to go through. And I am wondering whether or not there are other options. What do they feel we need to do to be able to get them on board? Mr. Hamberger. I am going to answer that question, but may I answer your last question first? Because it is a very important point. In fact, the Federal Railroad Administration, working with the AAR's Tank Car Committee did publish I believe about a year and a half ago now a new enhanced tank car safety standard for the hazardous materials and TIH materials. Mrs. Napolitano. And the placarding? Mr. Hamberger. Yes. What there is, however, I understand, a hole in the regulatory structure. Our coal cars go through more testing than transit cars do. There is a bus testing facility in Altoona, Pennsylvania. I don't know how it got there. And the AAR runs the Technology Test Center in Pueblo, Colorado, where we test other new-designed cars. Nowhere are passenger rail cars tested, and I think that is something that this Committee might want to take a look at. Getting to your second question. Union Pacific, I don't know exactly what specific issue you are talking about, but I do know that they run hundreds of passenger trains a week in California alone, probably thousands throughout their whole system every week. Mrs. Napolitano. Mostly through my District. Thank you. Mr. Hamberger. These are passengers as well, and I know that the number of applications that came in for the high-speed rail grants, I am sure that they were part of any number of those as they came in. I do know there is one line in California that we have talked about in the past that because of the volume of traffic and the physical characteristics of that right-of-way, there just is no more capacity. And so I think that it is not a reflection of their desire not to cooperate. It is just that in that particular case, the physical restrictions of the right- of-way preclude the passenger. Mrs. Napolitano. Which then my comment is, what are the options they would recommend? And that is one of the things, because as I mentioned before, L.A. County being 12 million, there is no more open land to be had unless you go to eminent domain, and that is going to be very hard for anybody to pass through. So essentially if they are concerned about it, then we ought to have them tell the High-speed Rail Authority and the Councils of Government, OK, let's build up or let's utilize another ability to go with the freeways, build on the freeways. But they have to be partners, and they have to be able to ensure that where they are going to be affecting a lot of residents, especially through the Alameda Corridor East, that they assist in being able to help fund the grade separations, which are critical for fast movement of trains. And they tell me there are going to be four crossing that are going to be covered through funding hopefully with the high-speed rail in my area, which is wonderful, except what about the rest of them? And at one point, they said no, we are reneging a little bit; we are not going to cover them. And now I believe they are back on track, so to speak. And we keep tags on these because this is a safety issue. It is an employee safety issue. It is a community and citizen issue, especially if they are going to be carrying hazardous material, toxics, et cetera. So those are the things I would like to share and maybe later go into with you. Mr. Hamberger. Absolutely. I have exhausted my knowledge of that particular line out there, but let me carry your message back. But on a broader issue, just of the grade crossings that is a shared--the railroads do pay some percentage. Mrs. Napolitano. Three. Mr. Hamberger. Well, actually it is up to 10 percent if it is a, it is up to 10 percent, but it is 5 to 10 percent. And that is in the Code of Federal Regulations. But what is important is when we move the reauthorization bill, I would like to make sure that the Committee understands the importance of fully funding the Section 130 Grade Crossing Program that that program, notwithstanding the desire to skinny down the number of programs, that is one that I think deserves extra special attention to keeping alive. And if I might go back to your question, Madam Chairwoman, I somehow missed the most important member of the OneRail Coalition, our Chairwoman Anne Canby of the STPP Program. So that would be another. I will get you the full list for the record. Mrs. Napolitano. Well, thank you. And if you would supply any of the answers to this, any of the witnesses who have information, to the full Subcommittee because I think all of us would be interested in it. Mr. Hamberger. Absolutely. Mrs. Napolitano. And thank you very much, Madam Chairwoman, for being so patient and also for continuing to make sure that we get this information out in the open. Ms. Brown. Do you want to have a follow-up question? Mrs. Napolitano. No. Ms. Brown. Okay, I can go on then. I have a question for both of my labor people here. Do you support a dedicated source of revenue funding for high-speed, as we do the reauthorization of, I don't know what we are going to call it this time, but as we do the reauthorization bill? And also, you talked about technology. Do you think that the workers need additional training to ensure they can operate the new equipment and the new transportation infrastructure technology, so they can keep up with it as we move forward? We have a very safe system, and one of the reasons why it is very safe is the workers are well trained. And a lot of times, we all want to talk about jobs, jobs, jobs. That is the key, but as we develop a system, we need to make sure we develop a safe system, and we need to have that built into the system. So do you want to respond to that? Mr. Scardelletti. Yes, thank you. As far as dedicated funding, of course. If there is not dedicated funding on a continued basis, then it will never work. It will just drop off the line somewhere. Ms. Brown. But with the new Administration? Mr. Scardelletti. Well, we are only having this hearing because there is a new Administration. Ms. Brown. Right, right. Mr. Scardelletti. I mean, it was only two years ago where Amtrak was proposed zero funding. Ms. Brown. Yes. Mr. Scardelletti. So that was going out of business. Ms. Brown. It was a fight every year. Mr. Scardelletti. Right, right. Now, yes, of course, because of President Obama, Vice President Biden, and the Democrats taking control, Amtrak's on a top list. Ms. Brown. But the point that I am talking about, dedicated source, I am seeing just like when we built the highway system 50 years ago, we developed a formula. We had a system. We knew we were going to do it from gasoline tax. So I am saying, do you think, and the others can respond to it, do we need a dedicated source of funding for high-speed rail? Mr. Scardelletti. Well, yes. If we had that, then we wouldn't be coming to Congress every year trying to get money. I mean, absolutely. That would be up to Congress as to how to figure that out, but that is what we need. That is what we have always needed for Amtrak. Amtrak basically operates at the whim of each Administration. Some are for it, some are against it, some are in the middle. That is why it is in the situation it is. As far as the railroad industry, freight railroads and passenger have been implementing new systems forever. And the rail workers, all the crafts, or whatever is involved, adapt, are trained by the railroads and perform that work. Right now on Amtrak, you have Bombardier Superliners, Amfleet, Acela. We do all that. All our crafts do that, and yes, they had to be trained, but it is not like you are training somebody to do something that is really that new because they have been working on cars their whole life, so they have that whole background. And if something new is brought in, we are 75 percent there, if not 80, ready to go, and it is just a matter of whatever the new things are. We have adapted to all of them forever, since railroading began. And all the complicated safety technology, centralized traffic control, all the electronics that enable, 100 trains to move through Penn Station, New York and Washington, mostly Penn Station, New York, where you have four or five commuter railroads all merging. That is all handled by rail workers. Ms. Brown. Well, I want to give you a shout out in the system. Are you familiar with the Beech Grove Station? Mr. Scardelletti. Yes. Ms. Brown. I visited the Beech Grove Station, and they have been trying to do away with it. And we were able to get additional funding to keep it open. And then when Amtrak had a major problem, you had those craftsmen there already trained. They was able to intervene, and now in the new planning, we are going to expand that system and we are going to fix it up. And that is the way it should be. We already own that property. We can upgrade that property and it could be a model hub to repair trains in the system. Mr. Scardelletti. You are 100 percent right. Beech Grove is way under-utilized. It could be a major part of Amtrak's existing and expansion. The same with Delaware, the Delaware shop. And we have people, rail workers. Ms. Brown. Yes, that is right. I mean, they are trained in the craft. I mean, I saw some of the work that they have done. If they had some more equipment like the paint shop, they could operate two teams at the same time. I mean, there is great potential there. Mr. Scardelletti. Right. At one time, we did everything. Ms. Brown. Yes. Mr. Scardelletti. We built everything there was to build on the railroad. We built it. Ms. Brown. Well, I talked to the guys who could fix everything. [Laughter.] Mr. Scardelletti. Yes. Ms. Brown. Yes, sir? Yes? Mr. Baugh. Madam Chair, I think the answer we would give is the same. To do this, to build a national infrastructure of this nature takes a commitment of funds over the long term, and we said that as part of our testimony. There is something very consistent, we have said, in all the climate testimony we have delivered, that as we look at these things, there has to be an aggressive long-term investment policy on the side of this Country to do these things. And concurrent with that, the folks in the rail shops can do the maintenance, repair and do all this. In the manufacturing end of this thing, we need the same confidence that if we are introducing new technology that develops this equipment, right, to make these things, we have to train these workers as well to be able to do that. And again, it builds upon existing skills from the past, but we recognize that the technologies that we use in making things have changed and continue to change. And therefore, you constantly have to deal with the upgrade of the skills of your workforce. And I am not just talking about the front line workers. I am talking about, as we talk about a high-speed rail system, we have to develop the engineering expertise. We have lots of engineering expertise. It is unemployed. It will require some specialty adaption to move to higher speed rail, so that we can actually not only just work on this stuff, we can innovate, that we become an innovation leader as we learn and adapt to these new technologies. So I think you have to think of training and education that runs the gamut from the people that are on the engineering side of the business, or the people who are actually down in the trenches maintaining the equipment, and upgrading it and modernizing it. Ms. Brown. And I think you gave a lengthy discussion about as we move forward with this, what we are trying to do in this area, I want us to keep in mind that what we are trying to do is to move people, goods and services so we can compete. That is what they are doing, so they can get their goods to services, so they can move their people around, so that you can live in maybe Orlando and work in Miami, so we can move people around the Country. That is what our competitors are already there, and that is where we have to get quickly so that we can compete. Mr. Baugh. I was in Japan a year ago this time. And I was working with somebody who commuted from a city 150 miles away and worked in Tokyo every day. That was our guide for what we were doing and looking at their technology. So we actually studied their trains and rode them and it was quite an experience. Ms. Brown. And we have those stories, too. I was in Spain and I was Mr. Oberstar and they went, we were in Barcelona, I went to Madrid, and they stopped in between, on the tour, and I went on to Madrid and spent the day. But it was the first of the new system and I did it in two hours and a half. I did 300 miles and it was just like we are sitting here. So the technology there is--but, see, those are our competitors and we can't forget it, and we have to be able to get our people and goods and services and move them around where the jobs are. In many cases, we have jobs, but the people are not there. So we need to be able to get them where the jobs are. And of course, I tell people the only real stimulus that works is transportation because we know for every billion dollars we invest in transportation, it generates 44,000 permanent jobs. And part of the problem, and Mr. Oberstar, he has had hearings and follow-up on the stimulus dollars, and there is a direct correlation between the stimulus dollars not getting out and the fact is we still have that high unemployment. And I suggest that the Administration have a report card in every area. We doing it in transportation, but in every single area we need that kind of commitment to follow through. And I know I am getting off the subject a little bit. Did you want to respond? I am sorry. Yes? Ms. Todorovich. Yes, Madam Chair. I agree with the previous speakers that a sustained commitment by the Federal government and a dedicated revenue source is the surest way that we can built out a national system. But I do want to encourage us to think about all sources of revenue for high-speed rail, including one of the oldest public-private partnerships for transportation infrastructure, which is the relationship between transportation and real estate investment. And I haven't been to Japan, but I understand that around the train stations, around the Shinkansen, you walk out and you are in the middle of a department store or major retail center, and those are owned by the train companies. As we move forward, we must realize that these stations will create tremendous value, particularly if they are planned right with transit- oriented development and walkable communities, and people will want to be close to these services. So let's provide an opportunity for the rail companies to capture some of that value that is created to help fund the transportation services. Ms. Brown. Or the private-public partnership, we don't have to run it. I mean, we could just run the train system. Ms. Todorovich. Sure. Ms. Brown. But we could lease the property or help develop, or the taxes would pay for itself. I mean, we need to figure out how we can partner because everywhere that I have gone where the train station around it, those communities have developed whether it was from, you go from Paris to Lille. I mean, all of those little towns, everywhere you have a station, you have a development. And we don't have to go that far. Even here, if you go to Crystal City, I mean, that is a city that was built up around that Metro stop. So that is true all over. Ms. Todorovich. Absolutely. Ms. Brown. Yes, Ms. Napolitano? Mrs. Napolitano. Thank you, Madam Chair. There was one last question, and since you have been so kind, I thought I would continue to ask, and this is of Mr. Baugh and Mr. Scardelletti, and the young lady who just brought up the public-private partnerships. But there are still some concerns that that brings up. Would you mind commenting on those? How it affects labor. Mr. Baugh. Well, certainly. Everything we have said, and I didn't go into detail because Mr. Scardelletti did, about the need to recognize existing labor law and to comply with it, and comply with all the requirements under the Federal labor laws. And we believe that public-private partnerships, when it involves the public dollar, is certainly required to live by those laws. And I would be happy to provide our resolution on green jobs, where we discuss these matters that we just passed at our convention. But we remain on target with the idea that we want two things out of this. One, we want a greener economy. We want to do things more efficiently, more effectively. We want high- speed rail for these same reasons. At the same time, we want to be sure we create good jobs. And this doesn't happen because we have good intentions. It actually happens because you have standards, and you live by them. That is our expectation, and that is what we believe is the idea, as Mr. Hamberger said, having all the stakeholders at the table to arrive at a conclusion about how we are going to get this done, and that people are treated decently in this process. Mrs. Napolitano. Mr. Scardelletti? Ms. Brown. I have one last question. Mrs. Napolitano. I don't know if he has an answer, if he wants to comment. Mr. Scardelletti. That is why in the bill, as the FRA Administrator Szabo said, if anybody gets any money, they get us. They get the rail labor laws. They are going to get us. And what we bring is good middle class jobs. And so as a result of this law that carries over our law, the railroad laws, you will be creating what you always say you wanted, the jobs we are losing every day that are almost impossible to recreate. This will recreate them. Mrs. Napolitano. And that leads also, Mr. Hamberger, to prior hearings where I have mentioned that the training that the railroads give the employees has to be training that is going to be able to keep them safe and keep our communities safe. And I think we have gone through that before. So thank you, Madam Chair. Ms. Brown. One of the last questions. Mr. Pracht, you mentioned that the DMU are operating in both Asia and Europe. Where are you operating now? You have operated, and at what speeds of the service, and do you have a lesson learned that you can share about those operations? Mr. Pracht. Yes, we are currently operating five trains a day in Florida. Ms. Brown. Where in Florida? Mr. Pracht. I am sorry? Ms. Brown. Where in Florida? I live in Florida. Mr. Pracht. Running between Miami and Fort Lauderdale on the Tri-Rail service, South Florida SFT. Ms. Brown. Oh, goodness. Mr. Pracht. Five trains. Ms. Brown. I rode on the train in August. There is nothing wrong with the train. There is just something wrong, we have to make sure we get the system off life support. Mr. Pracht. Yes, Madam Chairman. Ms. Brown. But the train is clean. I like the operation. I just rode on it, I rode the system to get the attention that we need the State as partners to make sure that that system is up and operational. And the Federal Government has told the State of Florida, you must run those trains and you must run at certain capacities. Well, thank you, the train is fine. Mr. Pracht. Yes, I would just like to add a general comment. We have this groundswell of interest in high-speed rail, and it is significant and it is important. But let's not forget incrementalism. Let's not forget incremental rail. All of these nations around the world, and I have worked with many of them in my career, that have the high-speed rail networks, they didn't have this sort of hiatus back in the '20s and the '30s and all of a sudden and wind up with high-speed rail in 2009. They got to high-speed rail, as Mr. Szabo said, through an incremental approach, similar to what we did with primary, secondary, and tertiary roads with the Interstate Highway Program. I think in terms of jobs, bang for the buck, and acquainting Americans around the Country with high-speed rail or higher speed rail, so that we get public support, we have to not discount the incremental approach in many of these corridors. You get outside the Northeast Corridor, and you talk to somebody in Wyoming about supporting trains, and there is no interest whatsoever because they don't know what a train is. If we begin to run 79 mile an hour trains, 90 mile an hour trains, 110 mile an hour trains in places like Wyoming and the middle of the country in these population centers, and they see what modern trains are, not the long distance, 40 year old Amtrak equipment, but modern trains are, we will get a lot more support. And building the trains to support those corridors around the country will create a lot more jobs. Ms. Brown. I am not going to disagree with you. And I just want to add that there is a population or a culture that is very interested in riding the trains. We just have to make it more convenient. I mean, there is an older generation that want to move, and they don't like the plane and they would, if it was possible, they would move around the Country if it was convenient. And of course, we have seen the ridership go up with Amtrak, so there is a real interest in the service. Mr. Pracht. Absolutely. Ms. Brown. Let me just thank you all for your patience. It is almost 7:00 o'clock. We have been here all day, but this is, a great time to be involved in transportation. And as we move forward, we are looking forward to additional comments, input, and moving our Country forward. I mean, as I say all the time, we are the caboose and we don't use cabooses anymore. So thank you very much for your interest and your support. [Whereupon, at 6:35 p.m. the Subcommittee was adjourned.] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]