    [House Hearing, 110 Congress]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                   CHILD SOLDIERS ACCOUNTABILITY ACT OF 2007

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                       SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME, TERRORISM,
                             AND HOMELAND SECURITY

                                     OF THE

                           COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
                            HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                           ONE HUNDRED TENTH CONGRESS

                                 SECOND SESSION

                                       ON

                                    S. 2135

                                   __________

                                 APRIL 8, 2008

                                   __________

                               Serial No. 110-140

                                   __________

             Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary

          Available via the World Wide Web: http://judiciary.house.gov

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                           COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

                     JOHN CONYERS, Jr., Michigan, Chairman
    HOWARD L. BERMAN, California         LAMAR SMITH, Texas
    RICK BOUCHER, Virginia               F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, Jr.,
    JERROLD NADLER, New York                 Wisconsin
    ROBERT C. ``BOBBY'' SCOTT, Virginia  HOWARD COBLE, North Carolina
    MELVIN L. WATT, North Carolina       ELTON GALLEGLY, California
    ZOE LOFGREN, California              BOB GOODLATTE, Virginia
    SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas            STEVE CHABOT, Ohio
    MAXINE WATERS, California            DANIEL E. LUNGREN, California
    WILLIAM D. DELAHUNT, Massachusetts   CHRIS CANNON, Utah
    ROBERT WEXLER, Florida               RIC KELLER, Florida
    LINDA T. SANCHEZ, California         DARRELL ISSA, California
    STEVE COHEN, Tennessee               MIKE PENCE, Indiana
    HANK JOHNSON, Georgia                J. RANDY FORBES, Virginia
    BETTY SUTTON, Ohio                   STEVE KING, Iowa
    LUIS V. GUTIERREZ, Illinois          TOM FEENEY, Florida
    BRAD SHERMAN, California             TRENT FRANKS, Arizona
    TAMMY BALDWIN, Wisconsin             LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas
    ANTHONY D. WEINER, New York          JIM JORDAN, Ohio
    ADAM B. SCHIFF, California
    ARTUR DAVIS, Alabama
    DEBBIE WASSERMAN SCHULTZ, Florida
    KEITH ELLISON, Minnesota

                Perry Apelbaum, Staff Director and Chief Counsel
          Sean McLaughlin, Minority Chief of Staff and General Counsel
                                     ------

            Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security

                 ROBERT C. ``BOBBY'' SCOTT, Virginia, Chairman

    MAXINE WATERS, California            LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas
    WILLIAM D. DELAHUNT, Massachusetts   J. RANDY FORBES, Virginia
    JERROLD NADLER, New York             F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, Jr.,
    HANK JOHNSON, Georgia                Wisconsin
    ANTHONY D. WEINER, New York          HOWARD COBLE, North Carolina
    SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas            STEVE CHABOT, Ohio
    ARTUR DAVIS, Alabama                 DANIEL E. LUNGREN, California
    TAMMY BALDWIN, Wisconsin
    BETTY SUTTON, Ohio

                          Bobby Vassar, Chief Counsel

                        Caroline Lynch, Minority Counsel

                                C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------

                                 APRIL 8, 2008

                                                                       Page

                                    THE BILL

    S. 2135, the ``Child Soldiers Accountability Act of 2007.........     0

                               OPENING STATEMENT

    The Honorable Robert C. ``Bobby'' Scott, a Representative in
      Congress from the State of Virginia, and Chairman, Subcommittee
      on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security.....................     1
    The Honorable Louie Gohmert, a Representative in Congress from
      the State of Texas, and Ranking Member, Subcommittee on Crime,
      Terrorism, and Homeland Security...............................     8
    The Honorable John Conyers, Jr., a Representative in Congress
      from the State of Michigan, and Chairman, Committee on the
      Judiciary......................................................     9

                                   WITNESSES

    Ms. Grace Akallo, former child soldier, advocate for child
      soldiers, Worcester, MA
      Oral Testimony.................................................    11
      Prepared Statement.............................................    13
    Mr. Tom Malinowski, Washington Advocacy Director, Human Rights
      Watch, Washington, DC
      Oral Testimony.................................................    13
      Prepared Statement.............................................    16
    Mr. David Crane, Syracuse University College of Law, Syracuse, NY
      Oral Testimony.................................................    21
      Prepared Statement.............................................    23

              LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC., SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING

    Prepared Statement of the Honorable John Conyers, Jr., a
      Representative in Congress from the State of Michigan, and
      Chairman, Committee on the Judiciary...........................    10

                                    APPENDIX

    Material Submitted for the Hearing Record........................    53

                       CHILD SOLDIERS ACCOUNTABILITY ACT
                                    OF 2007

                                  ----------

                             TUESDAY, APRIL 8, 2008

                  House of Representatives,
                  Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism,
                                  and Homeland Security
                                    Committee on the Judiciary,
                                                        Washington, DC.

        The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 4:10 p.m., in
    room 2141, Rayburn House Office Building, the Honorable Robert
    C. (Bobby) Scott (Chairan of the Subcommittee) presiding.
        Present: Representatives Scott, Conyers, and Gohmert.
        Staff Present: Ameer Gopalani, Majority Counsel; Veronica
    Eligan, Majority Professional Staff Member; Kelsey Whitlock,
    Minority Staff Assistant; and Kimani Little, Minority Counsel.
        Mr. Scott. The Subcommittee will come to order.
        And I welcome you to the hearing before the Subcommittee on
    Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security on S. 2135, the ``Child
    Soldiers Accountability Act of 2007.''
        [The bill, S. 2135, follows:]

        Mr. Scott. In at least 18 countries around the world,
    children are direct participants in war. Many of these child
    soldiers, some as young as 8 years old, are abducted or
    recruited by force and often are compelled to follow orders
    under harsh duress. Contrary to popular belief, in many
    conflicts, girls make up more than 30 percent of child soldiers
    and are often raped. Once recruited, these children, boys and
    girls, participate in all forms of combat, even wielding AK-47s
    and M-16s, as portrayed in the media.
        The prevalence and nature of the child soldier problem is
    not going away any time soon. It continues to plague the
    international community. In Uganda, a rebel group has abducted
    at least 20,000 children and has forced them to work as
    laborers, soldiers and sex slaves. We hear about ongoing
    persecution and atrocities in Burma, but what has escaped media
    attention is the use of child soldiers there. The Government
    has recruited up to 70,000 children--more than any other
    country in the world.
        There is a clear legal prohibition on recruiting and using
    child soldiers. Over 110 countries, including the United
    States, have ratified the Optional Protocol to the Convention
    on Rights of the Child, which prohibits recruitment and use of
    child soldiers under the age of 18. But individual recruiters
    continue to operate with impunity, violating their countries'
    policies and treaty obligations.
        So we must ask ourselves why this so. Is it a failure of
    the law or of will or both? This hearing will probe ways in
    which we may, as a country, contribute to prevention and
    punishment of recruiting and using child soldiers.
        Recruiting and using child soldiers does not now violate
    the United States Criminal Code. To this end, Senator Durbin
    and Senator Coburn introduced the Child Soldiers Accountability
    Act, legislation designed to amend title 18 of the U.S. Code to
    create a criminal provision aimed at those who recruit or
    conscript children under the age of 15 into armed conflict. The
    bill will establish criminal penalties up to 20 years in prison
    and up to life imprisonment if death results from the crime.
        Finally, the bill would extend U.S. jurisdiction to
    perpetrators of the crime who are present in the United States,
    regardless of their nationality and regardless of where the
    crime takes place, so that those who commit these crimes cannot
    use this country as a safe haven from prosecution. This type of
    jurisdiction exists for similar crimes, such as laws against
    torture and genocide, which allow for extraterritorial
    jurisdiction for crimes committed outside of the United States.
        We overwhelmingly passed the Genocide Accountability Act
    last year to end the immunity gap in the genocide law. We
    should explore doing the same for those who maliciously recruit
    and use innocent children in warfare.
        With that said, it is my pleasure to recognize the Ranking
    Member of the Subcommittee, the gentleman from Texas, Mr.
    Gohmert.
        Mr. Gohmert. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do want to thank
    you for scheduling this hearing. This is an atrocious practice
    that has been carried out in countries around the world. And we
    are honored to welcome a distinguished panel of witnesses to
    share their views on this timely issue.
        Children are currently used as soldiers apparently in over
    20 countries. An estimated 200,000 to 300,000 children are used
    as soldiers for rebel groups, militias and government armed
    forces.
        The individuals who recruit children do so because children
    are physically vulnerable and easily intimidated. Many children
    are recruited by force and often compelled to follow orders
    under threat of death.
        When faced with issues such as combatting the recruitment
    of child soldiers, many in Congress are interested in enacting
    legislation that attempts to address the problem. I believe the
    Committee has good intentions in addressing this issue.
        Our colleagues in the Senate have already passed S. 2135,
    the ``Child Soldiers Accountability Act of 2007.'' The Child
    Soldiers Accountability Act makes it a Federal crime to recruit
    or use child soldiers in an armed conflict. The bill also gives
    the Government the authority to deport or deny admission to any
    individual who recruited or used children or a child as a
    soldier under the age of 15.
        Advocates for this bill state that it sends a message to
    the world that the United States does not condone the use of
    child soldiers. They also state this bill ensures that our
    soldiers will not serve as a sanctuary for human rights
    violators.
        However, I wonder if adding another statute to the Federal
    Criminal Code is the best way for this Committee and ultimately
    this Congress to combat the use of child soldiers. To date,
    there have only been a total of 14 prosecutions involving a
    charge of recruiting child soldiers worldwide. All 14 cases
    have been held in international war crimes tribunals. None of
    the 14 defendants were American. None of the conduct that led
    to the 14 prosecutions occurred on American soil.
        These facts lead me to wonder if a child soldier
    recruitment case would ever be brought in a U.S. Federal Court.
    It may be prudent for Congress to consider other ways to combat
    the use of child soldiers, but I remain interested in hearing
    from our witnesses on this issue.
        Congress should take action to pressure violating countries
    to end this practice. Another possibility is to deny foreign
    assistance to nations or groups that use child soldiers. I
    believe there are a variety of options to be considered that
    may be better than adding another statute to the Federal Code.
    But again, I understand the position that the United States
    needs to set an example, and so I remain interested to hear
    your testimony here today.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
        Mr. Scott. Thank you.
        The Chairman of the full Committee, the gentleman from
    Michigan, Mr. Conyers.
        Mr. Conyers. Thank you, Chairman Scott, Judge Gohmert.
        This is important. This is one of the few bills that are
    self-descriptive: to prohibit the recruitment or use of child
    soldiers; to designate persons who recruit or use child
    soldiers as inadmissible aliens; to allow the deportation of
    persons who recruit or use child soldiers.
        So what that means is that anybody that has done that and
    comes to this country is still subject to prosecution. And it
    is a very, I think, excellent step forward in this grisly and
    inhumane practice in which some quarter of a million or more
    children are exploited each day in state-run armies, in
    paramilitaries and in guerilla groups around the world. They
    are soldiers, they are human mine detectors, they are sex
    slaves, they are porters. And they suffer, being in their
    vulnerable position, a higher mortality rate. They are more
    prone to disease. Their injuries in combat situations are
    always higher than adults.
        And so we feel that this a very important step forward to
    help in every way. As Judge Gohmert suggests, there may be
    other additional steps that we may take. And it is to that end
    that I commend the Chairman and the Ranking Member for these
    hearings.
        And I ask unanimous consent that my statement be included
    in the record.
        Mr. Scott. Thank you. Without objection, so ordered.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Conyers follows:]
    Prepared Statement of the Honorable John Conyers, Jr., a Representative
    in Congress from the State of Michigan, and Chairman, Committee on the
                                   Judiciary
        The use of child soldiers has been reported in at least 21
    conflicts around the world since 2001, including conflicts in Colombia,
    Uganda, the Democratic Republic of Congo, and Sierra Leone. It's
    estimated that up to 250,000 children are currently serving as soldiers
    or in some combat support capacity.
        As you might imagine, the lives of these youngsters are constantly
    in danger as a result of their forced labor as combatants, porters,
    human mine detectors, and sex slaves. Their precious childhoods are
    permanently scarred by such experiences--experiences we would not wish
    to endure, at any age.
        The ``Child Soldiers Accountability Act'' seeks to deter this
    horrible practice by taking several important steps to end the use of
    child soldiers.
        First, the bill makes it a federal crime to recruit or to actually
    use child soldiers, under the age of 15, in hostilities. The concept of
    individual criminal responsibility in this area is supported worldwide.
    The United States is a party to several treaties, including the
    Convention on the Rights of the Child, that prohibit this practice. The
    bill imposes penalties of 20 years to life in prison for this heinous
    crime.
        Second, the bill facilitates the swift prosecution of perpetrators,
    regardless of where the crime was committed. Last fall we passed the
    William Wilberforce modern anti-slavery bill, which provided the State
    Department international aid and monitoring mechanisms to combat the
    use of child soldiers.
        But fighting this heinous crime overseas is not enough. This bill
    brings the power of the Justice Department to bear, in recognition that
    this is an offense against international law that every country has a
    responsibility to prosecute when it is discovered, just like torture
    and slavery.
        In fact, the House recently passed a bill, subsequently enacted
    into law, that would authorize genocide prosecutions against those
    found present in the United States who committed genocide abroad. We
    did this to avoid a situation where perpetrators of genocide could
    reside in the United States as a safe haven from prosecution.
    Similarly, we should not allow those who recruit or use child soldiers
    to find a safe haven in our Nation.
        Third, this Act will send a forceful message that child soldier
    recruiters will be prosecuted. And, for the future, it will be a
    forceful deterrent against the abuse of innocent children around the
    world.
        The United States has been a key participant in global law
    enforcement efforts against genocide, war crimes, and other crimes
    against humanity. By supporting the ``Child Soldiers Accountability
    Act,'' we extend these critical efforts into punishing and deterring
    the use of child combatants.

        Mr. Scott. We have a distinguished panel of witnesses here
    to help us consider the important issues before us.
        Our first witness will be Grace Akallo, who is a graduate
    of Gordon College with a degree in communications and has
    worked for World Vision on behalf of children worldwide. She
    was abducted by Ugandan rebels at the age of 15 and dragged
    into Sudan. She witnessed numerous atrocities committed by the
    rebels. And although she witnessed the murder of those who
    attempted to escape, she managed a heroic escape back home. She
    is now internationally renowned as a spokesman and one who has
    testified before the House Committee on Foreign Affairs. She
    has also appeared on the ``Oprah'' television show. She is the
    author of ``Girl Soldier: A Story of Hope for Northern Ugandan
    Children.''
        Our next witness after that will be Tom Malinowski, who has
    served as the Washington advocacy director for Human Rights
    Watch since 2001. He is responsible for the organization's
    overall advocacy effort. Prior to joining Human Rights Watch,
    he served as a special assistant to President Bill Clinton and
    as a senior director of foreign-policy speechwriting at the
    National Security Council. He holds degrees in political
    science from the University of California at Berkeley and
    Oxford University.
        And our final witness will be Professor David M. Crane,
    appointed as a professor of practice at Syracuse University
    College of Law in the summer of 2006. From 2002 to 2005, he was
    the chief prosecutor of the Special Court for Sierra Leone in
    an international war crimes tribunal and was appointed to that
    position by Secretary General of the United Nations Kofi Annan.
    He has served in public service for over 30 years in various
    capacities, such as senior inspector general at the Department
    of Defense and the assistant general counsel of Defense
    Intelligence Agency.
        So we begin our testimony with Ms. Akallo. Your entire
    written statement will be made part of the record. We would ask
    you to summarize your statement in 5 minutes or less. And there
    is a lighting device at the table which will go from green to
    yellow when there is 1 minute left and to red when the 5
    minutes are up.
        Ms. Akallo?

     TESTIMONY OF GRACE AKALLO, FORMER CHILD SOLDIER, ADVOCATE FOR
                     CHILD SOLDIERS, WORCESTER, MA

        Ms. Akallo. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Members of the
    Subcommittee, for allowing me to testify before you today on
    behalf of many of the children who are being brutally forced to
    become soldiers and killers. Your concern on the issue of child
    soldiers is very vital for the children who have suffered and
    continue to suffer around the world.
        On the night of October 9, 1996, the Lord's Resistance
    Army, rebels fighting the Government of Uganda, dashed into my
    school dormitory. Some of those rebels were younger than me; I
    was 15 years old. Within an hour, the rebels tied up girls in
    my dorm and forced 139 of us into the cold night. It was
    pricking cold. It felt unreal. No stars shown. Dawn was far
    off. No moon lit our way, only dark clouds announcing our fate.
        Our silent fear had come true. Nothing could prepare us for
    it. For 20 years, war has been no stranger among us. Our
    capture could have happened on any other day. But this
    particular day was a day of celebration and singing in my
    country--such irony--for October 9th was our celebration of
    Uganda's independence. That night, led like slaves, we were
    taken to a life of torment. We left our independence behind.
        We moved the whole night. Sister Rachelle, the deputy
    headmistress of Saint Mary's College in Aboke, who had hidden
    behind the banana plantation during our capture, tracked our
    footprints and caught up with us. Sister Rachelle, eyes swollen
    with grief, walked by our side for the whole day, pleading with
    the rebel commander for our release. 109 were released, and 30
    of us were kept. And some of us were never to come back to see
    our homeland and feel the warmth of our parents' love again,
    never to see the rise and setting of the sun.
        We were taught to dismantle, clean and assemble the gun. We
    were taught to kill, abduct and loot people's property. Many of
    these abducted children who could not walk were killed, and
    those who tried to escape were brutally killed in front of me
    and the others. Five of my friends were killed, and two are
    still missing. I have seen heads smashed. I have seen people
    beaten until their sockets swallow their eyes. I have seen
    children turn into monsters against their will. I have survived
    being buried alive.
        Mr. Chairman, the recruitment and forceable abduction of
    children into the army continues today because their voices are
    never heard. We have failed to see their tears. The day I was
    abducted, the world stood still, and that is what every child
    forced to become a child soldier faces. It is beyond fear, Mr.
    Chairman.
        I am not here to evoke emotions without action but to plead
    with you, Mr. Chairman and Members of the Subcommittee, to make
    the Child Soldiers Accountability Act become law. The
    perpetrators of child-soldiering crime must be held
    accountable. They should be brought to justice everywhere in
    the world. It pains my heart when the perpetrators are given
    safe haven here in the United States and other parts of the
    world or given amnesty. In some countries where some of the
    perpetrators have been given amnesty, they live like kings, yet
    their victims suffer injustices.
        On November 20, 1989, the United Nations approved a
    Convention on the Rights of the Child. And article 35 provides
    the right to protection from being abducted, sold or
    trafficked. Article 36 provides the right to protection from
    all other forms of exploitation. And article 38 provides the
    right, if below 15 years of age, not to be recruited into the
    armed forces nor engaged in direct hostility.
        Mr. Chairman, this has not been obeyed by numerous
    countries that still abduct, recruit and exploit children
    because they face no consequence for their action. Making the
    Child Soldiers Accountability Act become law would send a
    strong message to those involved now and those planning in the
    future to recruit and abduct children below 15 years of age
    into armed forces.
        Mr. Chairman and Members of the Subcommittee, I thank you
    for the opportunity to testify today and argue to continue to
    be leaders in the protection of children around the world. The
    enactment of the Child Soldiers Accountability Act will send a
    signal to those country's armies and state and nonstate actors
    who intend to arm and threaten the life of children--children
    who need education opportunities and plowshares, not swords,
    thrust in their arms.
        I will be happy to answer questions about my experience as
    a child abducted into soldiering and my quest now to speak on
    behalf of those gone, forgotten and now bearing arms against
    their will.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Akallo follows:]
                       Prepared Statement of Grace Akallo
        Thank you Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee for allowing
    me testify before you today on behave of many of the children who are
    being brutally forced to become soldiers and killers. Your concern on
    the child soldiers is very vital for the children who have suffered and
    still suffering. On night of October 9, 1996 the lord's resistance
    army, rebels to the government of Uganda, dashed into my dormitory. And
    Some rebels were younger than me, then 15 years old. Within an hour the
    rebels tied up girls in my dormitory, and forced 139 girls into the
    cold night. It was pricking cold. It felt unreal. No stars shone. Dawn
    was far off. No moon lit our way. Only dark clouds announcing our fate.
    Our silent fear had come true; nothing could prepare me for it. For 20
    years, war has been no stranger amongst us. Our capture could have
    happened on any other day. But this particular day of celebration and
    singing in my country? Such irony. For October 9, 1996, was our
    independence. That night, led like slaves, we were taken to the life of
    torment. We left our independence behind. We moved the whole night.
    Sister Rachelle, the deputy headmistress who had hidden behind the
    banana plantation, tracked our footprints and caught up with us. Sister
    Rachelle, swollen with grief, walked by our side for the whole day
    pleading with the commander for our release. 109 were released and the
    30 of us were kept behind and some of us were never to come back to our
    homeland, and feel the warmth our parents' love again, never to see the
    rise and setting of the sun again. We were taught to dismantle clean
    and assembled the gun. We taught to kill abduct and loot people
    property. Many of the kids who could not walk were killed and those who
    tried to escape were brutally killed in front of the others. Five of my
    friends were killed and two are still missing.
        I have seen heads smashed. I have seen people beaten until their
    sockets swallow their eyes. I have seen children turned into monsters
    against their will. I have survived being buried alive.
        Dear Mr. Chairman, the recruitment and forcible abduction of
    children into the army continues, because their voices are never heard,
    we have failed to see their tears. The day I was abducted, the world
    stood still and that is what every child forced to become child a
    soldiers encounters, it is beyond fear Mr. Chairman.
        I am not here to evoke emotions without action, but to plead with
    you Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee to make child soldier
    accountability act became law. The perpetrators of child soldiering
    crime must be hold accountable. They should be brought to justice
    anywhere in the world. It pains my heart when the perpetrators are
    given safe havens here in the United States and others parts of the
    world or given amnesty as in the case in country where some of the
    perpetrators have been given Amnesty, they live like kings yet the
    victims continue to suffer injustices.
        On November 20th, 1989 the United Nations approved the Convention
    on the right of the child and in article 35 states; the right to
    protection from being abducted, sold, or trafficked. 36 states; the
    right to protection from all other forms of exploitation and 38 states;
    the right, if below 15 years of age not to be recruited into the armed
    forces nor engage in direct hostilities. Mr. Chairman this has not been
    obeyed by some countries that still abduct, recruit and exploit
    children, because they do not face any consequences of their action. By
    making the Child soldier accountability act 2007 become law, it would
    send a strong massage to those involved now and those planning in the
    future to recruitment and abduct children below 15 years of age into
    armed forces.
        Mr. Chairman and the members of the Subcommittee, I believe that as
    you decide on this piece of legislation whether to adopt it or not, you
    would be thinking of own your family, your children, if they were the
    once being forced to become soldiers what would do, what would want
    people do for you and your family.
        Thank you Mr. Chairman.

        Mr. Scott. Thank you very much. Thank you.
        Mr. Malinowski?

      TESTIMONY OF TOM MALINOWSKI, WASHINGTON ADVOCACY DIRECTOR,
                   HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH, WASHINGTON, DC

        Mr. Malinowski. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Members, for
    having us here and for looking at this very, very important
    issue.
        Children are recruited to serve and to fight in armed
    conflict in at least 18 countries around the world. Human
    Rights Watch, my organization, has investigated the use of kids
    in armed conflict in Colombia, where they are used by both
    paramilitary groups and left-wing rebels; in northern Uganda,
    where Grace is from; in Sri Lanka, where both sides in the
    civil war use children; in Burma, Somalia, Rwanda, Liberia. The
    list unfortunately goes on and on.
        No one knows the exact number of child soldiers in the
    world, but the U.N. estimates there may be as many as a
    quarter-million serving in conditions of armed conflict
    worldwide.
        Children are recruited because they are vulnerable, because
    they are easily intimidated, because they make obedient
    soldiers. Many are recruited by force, like Grace was. Others
    join out of desperation, as their communities break down, as
    they are separated from their families, driven from their
    homes, left with no opportunities, no one to care for them or
    to protect them. But regardless of how they are recruited,
    child soldiers are denied a childhood, and they are often
    subjected to horrific violence.
        How do we fight this problem? There is no magical solution.
    But what we can do is what we have done for generations in
    trying to curb the worst, most inhumane excesses of war: We can
    try to set a standard, and then we can try to enforce that
    standard, until a practice that still appears normal in many
    parts of the world begins to be seen as wrong, subject to
    punishment and ultimately, we hope, unthinkable.
        Now, we have already gone a long way toward setting a
    global standard that you can't recruit kids for war. The
    recruitment and participation in hostilities of children under
    15 was first prohibited in 1977 by the additional protocols to
    the Geneva Conventions. It is recognized as a war crime now by
    the International Criminal Court. We now have a treaty, which
    the United States has ratified, forbidding recruitment of
    children under 18 or their use in hostilities. And that has
    been ratified by 120 countries, including by us.
        The challenge we face is enforcing these norms, for while
    many governments and even nonstate armed groups have policies
    on paper stating that their minimum age of recruitment is 18,
    recruiters who actually violate those policies are rarely held
    accountable.
        Now, a big recent advance has come with the Special Court
    for Sierra Leone, which David Crane will talk about and which
    receives, as you know, strong financial support from the United
    States. The Special Court has begun to prosecute and to convict
    people who recruited child soldiers in that country's brutal
    civil war, including Charles Taylor.
        The International Criminal Court recently took a case
    involving a defendant who is accused of conscripting children.
    And as these trials proceed, as convictions are handed down, we
    hope that child recruiters get the message that they are going
    to be held accountable for this kind of behavior. And that is
    the way to achieve deterrence.
        Now, you mentioned, Mr. Gohmert, that thus far it has been
    mostly the international courts that have taken these kinds of
    cases. And that is true, but that is precisely because very few
    countries have criminalized the practice of recruiting and
    using child soldiers in their national criminal codes. National
    courts in most countries simply can't do this yet. But we need
    them to, because the international courts have very limited
    jurisdiction, only for a small number of countries, like Sierra
    Leone or cases that the ICC may take, which are only the most
    extraordinary ones. Here in the United States, our code doesn't
    address the issue. So if one of Grace's tormenters were to come
    to the United States, or any number of people like that, our
    courts would not be able to act. They would be able to take
    safe haven here.
        Now, that is why we support the Child Soldiers
    Accountability Act. We think it would send a strong message to
    child recruiters around the world that they can't find safe
    haven in the United States. It would enable us to prosecute
    people who might try to recruit kids from the United States to
    fight in foreign conflicts. And that is not unthinkable. In the
    late 1990's, for example, the Kurdistan Workers Party recruited
    school-children in Europe to serve in PKK forces in
    southeastern Turkey. And it would set an example for other
    countries around the world that would also like to adopt
    similar laws. And I believe the Justice Department would use
    this law. We can perhaps discuss that later.
        We also have precedent for this kind of legislation in
    existing laws. The Chairman mentioned, I believe, the U.S. Code
    already makes it a crime for torture to be committed abroad,
    irrespective of the nationality of the victim or alleged
    offender. The Senate has passed the Genocide Accountability
    Act, which allows us to prosecute non-U.S. nationals for acts
    of genocide. And these kinds of laws have proven useful in
    real-life cases in the past.
        So we are encouraged to see the bill has passed the Senate.
    We are encouraged by the strong bipartisan support; there is no
    divide in this Congress or in this country about preventing the
    exploitation of children. And we do hope that the Subcommittee
    will act favorably and take this up so it can quickly become
    law.
        Thank you very much.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Malinowski follows:]
                      Prepared Statement of Tom Malinowski

        Mr. Scott. Professor Crane?

     TESTIMONY OF DAVID CRANE, SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY COLLEGE OF LAW,
                              SYRACUSE, NY

        Mr. Crane. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for this
    opportunity to address this Committee on what I feel to be an
    important international issue that impacts our country and its
    security, and that is the scourge of children used as soldiers
    in armed conflict.
        For the first time in history, those who bear the greatest
    responsibility for war crimes, crimes against humanity and
    other serious violations of international humanitarian law that
    took place during recent wars have been charged with the use of
    child soldiers under the age of 15 into an armed force.
        The use of children in armed conflict is an age-old issue,
    of course. Modern international norms, however, have identified
    and outlawed their use. International tribunals, such as the
    Special Court for Sierra Leone, of which I was the founding
    chief prosecutor, are now on the cutting edge of international
    criminal law and holding accountable those warlords, commanders
    and politicians who turn to children, some as young as the age
    of 6 years old, to carry out orders that, in some cases, result
    in war crimes and crimes against humanity. Only in the past 10
    years has the international community begun to grapple with
    this international problem.
        A favorite tactic to induce children to join their force
    was for the rebels to move in and surround the village in
    Sierra Leone. The children were made to kill their parents and
    then were driven into the bush and forced to serve as soldiers,
    in many instances for years. The numbers are not fully known,
    but it was in the thousands. These children, ranging from 6 to
    18 years of age, roamed the battlefields, hopped up on cocaine
    or marijuana, destroying their own country. Over time, the
    various warring factions became their home and their families.
    Many forgot their real names or even where they came from.
        All sides to the conflict in Sierra Leone used children.
    When that horrific conflict staggered to its bloody conclusion
    in 2002, just shortly before my arrival in country, an entire
    nation lay in ruins. These child fighters found themselves with
    no families, little to no education, and a society unable to
    assist them in starting to rebuild their lives. Many were
    physically and psychologically damaged. The lost generation of
    Sierra Leone now sits by pockmarked roads with no hope waiting
    for the next ``Pa'' to lead them back into the only life they
    know: fighting, raping, pillaging and murdering their fellow
    citizens.
        The Child Soldiers Accountability Act of 2007, passed by
    the United States Senate in December of last year, is an
    important signal to the world that this country will not
    tolerate those who recruit mere children into armed forces of
    whatever kind. Moreover, it gives our Government the legal
    tools to deal with those who are in this country or seek to
    enter this country to deal with them by prosecution, exclusion
    and/or deportation.
        I will close with a story of thousands that I personally
    was involved with in my 3 years in West Africa relating to just
    one child soldier. And I quote this from my opening statement
    to the tribunal against the leadership of the Revolutionary
    United Front.
        It was a clear, hot day. The meeting hall in the school for
    the deaf located up country near Makeni rippled with the heat
    of over 500 persons. I had been speaking to the students,
    faculty and others in one of my many town hall meetings I
    conducted throughout Sierra Leone. The purpose of the meetings
    were to provide a vehicle for the people of this small and
    fragile nation to talk to their prosecutor about the war, the
    crimes, their pain and other issues related to our work.
        As I finished answering a question from a student near the
    front, a shy, small arm was raised in the middle of the hall. I
    walked back to the student. He meekly stood up, head bowed, and
    he mumbled loud enough for those around him to hear, ``I killed
    people. I am sorry. I didn't mean it.'' I went over to him,
    tears in my eyes, and I hugged him and said, ``Of course you
    didn't mean it. I forgive you.''
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for this opportunity to address
    you today about holding accountable those who destroy
    children's lives by recruiting them into armed forces. I
    welcome your questions, sir.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Crane follows:]
                      Prepared Statement of David M. Crane

        Mr. Scott. Thank you.
        Ms. Akallo, how do recruiters induce the children?
        Ms. Akallo. When they are first abducted, they use--in
    Uganda, they use kind of a ritual act by putting a batter on
    the child. That is to initiate the child into the army. And in
    the second step, the child is beaten until he doesn't know
    himself or herself. And then he is given a gun and is forced to
    kill or beat someone to death. And the child goes on,
    continues, until the child is hardened enough to do it alone.
        Mr. Scott. Mr. Malinowski, you mentioned Charles Taylor.
    What did he do relevant to this issue, and how was he
    prosecuted? And what would this bill do?
        Mr. Malinowski. That is actually better directed to the
    former chief prosecutor who prosecuted him.
        Mr. Scott. Mr. Crane?
        Mr. Crane. Well, thank you.
        Charles Taylor was the linchpin in a 10-year-long
    geopolitical joint criminal enterprise between himself, Blaise
    Compaore of Burkina Faso and Muammar Gaddafi of Libya. Charles
    Taylor told Foday Sanko, who was about to invade Sierra Leone
    from Liberia, to take over the diamond fields of eastern Sierra
    Leone, ``Recruit everyone, to include women and children,'' and
    that he did for 10 years.
        And for that I signed an indictment in March of 2003
    indicting Charles Taylor, the sitting President of Liberia, on
    11 counts of war crimes and crimes against humanity, one of
    which was the unlawful recruitment of children into an armed
    force under the age of 15, the first time in history that this
    had ever been done.
        Mr. Scott. What is the status of the prosecution?
        Mr. Crane. Well, the Special Court for Sierra Leone is
    about 90 percent done. Most of the individuals who were charged
    have been found guilty and have been convicted, to include, all
    of them, the unlawful recruitment of children under the age of
    15 into an armed force.
        Charles Taylor--of course the international community had
    to come to a political decision as to when to hand over a head
    of state to an international tribunal. They did so in March of
    2006. He now sits before Trial Chamber No. 2 of the Special
    Court for Sierra Leone in The Hague on that 11-count indictment
    that I signed on the 3rd of March of 2003, sir.
        Mr. Scott. Now, this is the International Criminal Court?
        Mr. Crane. No. It is a hybrid international war crimes
    tribunal. It is the first one tried in history.
        The ad hoc tribunal concept was too slow, too expensive.
    The Security Council, with the leadership of this country, I
    might add, came up with a new hybrid international tribunal to
    be a little bit more efficient, a little bit more effective,
    and try those who bear the greatest responsibility for war
    crimes and crimes against humanity, as opposed to just
    everyone.
        So I narrowed it down to about 13 indictees, and they are
    completing their work. They should be done about 8 years after
    we started.
        Mr. Scott. Are United States citizens subject to this
    court?
        Mr. Crane. They are not, Mr. Chairman.
        Mr. Scott. Is there any situation that would justify
    recruiting children under the age of 15?
        Mr. Crane. Not that I can know of at all. I have found no
    military reason, moral reason or practical reason.
        Mr. Scott. Why do we use 15 rather than 18?
        Mr. Crane. That is a good question. That is a debate within
    the international community, and Tom might be able to address
    that.
        My personal opinion is certainly anybody under the age of
    15 should not be in an armed force. Various countries in the
    world use 17 year olds in their armed forces with consent from
    parents, but the international standard is under 18. However,
    the debate continues related to whether a child can commit a
    war crime; certainly under the age of 15, I would certainly
    submit to you.
        And this act, correctly at this point, cites those who
    unlawfully recruit under the age of 15.
        Mr. Malinowski. I agree. There is an absolute international
    consensus for under 15. There is an emerging norm that under 18
    is prohibited, which the United States has joined. We still
    recruit--and that is consistent with the treaty--17 year olds,
    but it is U.S. policy not to involve them in hostilities, in
    conflict.
        Mr. Scott. Thank you.
        The gentleman from Texas?
        Mr. Gohmert. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        And I thank the witnesses for your testimony.
        Ms. Akallo, obviously nobody here would wish what you went
    through on anyone. And you have our greatest sympathy.
        You did say, ``It pains my heart when the perpetrators are
    given safe havens here in the United States, in other parts of
    the world, are given amnesty.'' And I am curious, do you know
    if any of your perpetrators were given safe haven or amnesty
    here in the United States?
        Ms. Akallo. I still don't know the people that have been
    given amnesty here. But the leader of the Lord's Resistance
    Army is actually asking for the Government of Uganda to allow
    him to be given a place somewhere. And it can be the United
    States, it can be anywhere in the world that he can go, and he
    will be free without being charged.
        Mr. Gohmert. But do you know of anyone who you are aware of
    forced children to become soldiers, getting safe haven or
    amnesty in the United States?
        Ms. Akallo. Not in the United States. The second in command
    in Uganda, the Lord's Resistance Army, was given amnesty in
    Uganda and lives in Uganda.
        Mr. Gohmert. Okay. Well, I was just curious, because when
    you said it pains my heart when perpetrators are given safe
    havens here in the United States, I guess you were talking
    about in the future, if it ever happened, because you are not
    aware of it happening so far, correct?
        Ms. Akallo. I am not aware, but it can happen in the
    future.
        Mr. Gohmert. Okay. Thank you.
        Professor Crane, I am really torn here. It is such a moving
    story about the young man that admitted what he had done as a
    child. And you had expressed that you forgave him. And I
    wonder, if it turned out that--you know, as a judge, I saw a
    lot of child abuse, and people who abused children were often
    abused themselves. And I am wondering, if it turns out that
    most of these people forcing children to become soldiers were
    forced into being a soldier as a child themselves, should we
    forgive them and just let it go because they were forced in
    originally as a child?
        Mr. Crane. That is a good question, Judge, and I appreciate
    the point.
        The bottom line is that, at the international level, you
    have entire generations of children, 35,000 in Sierra Leone,
    who were moving around who were child soldiers. I made a
    political decision, as the chief prosecutor, that I did not
    have the capacity to prosecute a child for war crimes and
    crimes against humanity. Frankly, I don't think a child has the
    mens rea to commit a war crime, and I made that appropriate
    decision. The entire country issued a collective sigh of
    relief.
        So when I said ``forgave,'' it was a personal forgiveness;
    it wasn't a legal forgiveness.
        Mr. Gohmert. Because I wonder, because this is an issue
    that gets debated frequently. And some States, like my own,
    have laws that if a crime is so atrocious and the facts
    surrounding it give such an indication that there was clearly
    mens rea by someone under 17, then he can be certified up to be
    tried as an adult for such a heinous crime.
        And so, anyway, there is an ongoing debate over the issue,
    but I wondered where you came down on that. You are not
    asserting that we forgive anybody that was forced in
    originally, correct?
        Mr. Crane. Not at all. You know, I am an old Federal
    prosecutor.
        Mr. Gohmert. That is a mitigating factor on sentencing,
    rather than an outright defense then, as a prosecutor?
        Mr. Crane. Yes, sir. As a prosecutor, I would say that
    anybody who commits violations of domestic law under our
    domestic law has the appropriate resolution.
        At the international level, when the multiples are far
    beyond just one or two or a gang or what have you that might be
    before your court, Judge, that might be a different story. But
    when you are looking at literally an entire generation, you
    have to make some hard calls related to who you prosecute and
    who you don't.
        Now, frankly, my mandate from the Security Council was
    those who bear the greatest responsibility, and that is the
    guys that actually started it, aided, abetted it.
        Mr. Gohmert. Thank you.
        And I know that Human Rights Watch, as I understand it, is
    a member of the Coalition to Stop the Use of Child Soldiers. As
    I understand it, that is a group that does want to stop anyone
    under 18 from becoming a soldier. Is that correct?
        Mr. Malinowski. I can tell you that we are absolutely
    comfortable with the treaty that the United States is part of,
    which----
        Mr. Gohmert. But isn't that something that the coalition
    has a stated goal?
        Mr. Malinowski. I think there are many, many folks who
    would say that, yes. I think it is a very narrow distinction
    now. And you know where we are, as a country, that DOD can
    recruit at age 17; 17 year olds don't go to the front lines.
    And we think that is certainly something that we are
    comfortable with.
        Mr. Gohmert. Okay, you are comfortable with, but would you
    like to see, personally, eventually no 17 year olds recruited?
        Mr. Malinowski. Personally, I would be happier, because I
    am concerned about setting the clearest example for other
    countries where this is more of a problem. It is not so much
    the United States aspect of this that is the problem, but we
    are the leader, and everything we do is an example, for better
    or worse, for others.
        But, as I said, this is not the major issue in the debate
    right now. The major issue is how do we get the standard
    enforced in the countries where it is such an atrocious
    problem.
        Mr. Gohmert. And truly, it is a problem.
        I would expect you would support the bill that I think has
    been filed here in the House to end any foreign assistance to
    countries that allow this type of practice, correct?
        Mr. Malinowski. Well, that's right. And a version of that
    is actually already enacted in the Consolidated Appropriations
    Act that you all passed last December. That bill would make it
    essentially permanent. And, again, it gives the State
    Department a powerful tool to press governments that are at the
    root of the problem to change their practices. And that is
    vital.
        Mr. Gohmert. Okay. And just to wrap up, I'd note for the
    record that most all of our attendees at our service academies
    were recruited and signed up, or at least recruited and made
    the commitment to application, before they turned 18. I
    certainly applied for A&M and went into ROTC and turned 18 just
    before I started school. So maybe you could point to that and
    say, ``Oh, so that's your problem.'' But anyway, thank you.
        I yield back.
        Mr. Scott. Thank you.
        The gentleman from Michigan, Chairman of the Committee?
        Mr. Conyers. Thank you, Chairman Scott.
        Can we get into the record the countries that have the most
    problems with the use of child soldiers? Is that in anyone's
    testimony or in our prepared material?
        Mr. Malinowski. We could provide you with a list of the 18
    countries, Mr. Conyers, where we know this to be a significant
    problem.
        Mr. Conyers. Thank you very much, Mr. Malinowski.
        [The information referred to follows:]

        Mr. Conyers. Now, what do we do if a child soldier is under
    the age of 15?
        Mr. Malinowski. What do we do?
        Mr. Conyers. Yes, if the law says it has to be he is at
    least 15.
        Mr. Malinowski. No, it is under 15.
        Mr. Conyers. It is under 15?
        Mr. Malinowski. That's right.
        Mr. Conyers. Okay. Anything under 15?
        Mr. Malinowski. That's correct.
        Mr. Conyers. Is there a credible case for making it under
    18?
        Mr. Malinowski. I think we would be happier if it was under
    18. That is the emerging international standard. It is
    something that the United States has signed up to. Fifteen is a
    more conservative approach to this, one that is consistent with
    what everyone around the world has already agreed to
    criminalize.
        So, again, we are comfortable with the bill at 15. We would
    be happy if the Congress were able to bring that up higher. The
    most important thing, though, is to criminalize the worst, most
    egregious violations of the standard. And, obviously, the
    younger the child, the worse the violation.
        Mr. Conyers. Prosecutor Crane, have you anything to add to
    this?
        Mr. Crane. Other than to just underscore, Mr. Chairman, the
    fact that if the United States passes this bill, it rings a
    bell throughout the world saying, at a minimum, under 15, if
    you recruit children, if you come to the United States or we
    find you in the United States, you will either be prosecuted,
    deported or denied entry.
        And as an old prosecutor myself, if I have a tool by which
    to choose, then that is a useful thing for me. I may choose to
    do nothing, based on the circumstances, but if I have the
    opportunity, it would be a terrible thing not to be able to do
    anything related to a child soldier.
        You know, there is a huge diaspora of West Africans in this
    country who settled around Baltimore, Boston, Philadelphia. In
    fact, Charles Taylor's son was caught in Miami and currently is
    sitting in Miami, being prosecuted for an unrelated charge. But
    he was going to Minnesota, which has a huge Liberian diaspora,
    to recruit to get his father out of Nigeria, to take him back
    into Liberia to start the civil war all over again. Some of
    those were children.
        So I would just say as just a factual note, respectfully,
    if the practice is there, and the opportunity, they will take
    it.
        Mr. Malinowski. If I may add to that, because I think that
    is the question looming over the discussion: Is this just a
    symbolic gesture, a way for us to say we are against child
    soldiers? Or is it something practical that will create legal
    precedent that will bring perpetrators to justice? And I think
    the answer is the latter. I wouldn't be here if it was just
    symbolic.
        My understanding is that the Justice Department has, in
    fact, identified potential cases that they could bring, were
    this law to be adopted. They are not going to tell us who those
    individuals are, I think for very appropriate reasons. But that
    is my understanding.
        Is it going to be hundreds of people? Of course not. But
    one case, such as the case of the son, Chuckie Taylor, as he is
    known, does send a very powerful message and creates a
    precedent about this standard that we are trying desperately to
    advance around the world.
        Mr. Conyers. Ms. Grace Akallo, are there any other comments
    you would like to make that occurred to you during this
    discussion after you made your opening statement?
        Ms. Akallo. Yes. I have been listening about the age limit
    that children should be recruited in the army that is between
    15 and 18. If it was in my power, I think 18 would be the best
    standard, because even the 15 year olds still deserve the
    chance for a future. But being recruited into the army--I was
    recruited at the age of 15. I was in school. My future was
    basically destroyed. If I had not gotten a chance to survive
    and come back and continue with education, I wouldn't be
    sitting here.
        And the recruitment of children above 15 years old should
    not even been forceful; it should be voluntary, if the child is
    15 or 18, should be voluntary, not forced. But so many
    countries force these children. When we talk about recruitment
    of children, they are forced. They are forced by abduction or
    by threat of death or killing of their families, and the
    children join in the army.
        And if possible the age limit would be 18, according to me,
    it would be good. But if the world has come to agreement to
    that, I will be comfortable for now.
        Mr. Conyers. If I can ask this final question, Chairman
    Scott, what is the psychological repair of this? Have we been
    able to engage in any medical examination of how we bring
    people out?
        You, Ms. Akallo, are a unique representative of this
    phenomenon, because I can tell without an examination of my own
    question that, for many, this is a difficult and impossible
    road back to normalcy and sanity.
        And so I wanted to ask all of you how we should go about
    the psychological healing that is so awfully complex.
        Ms. Akallo. The psychological healing of these children--I
    would begin by myself--is very possible, sir. When a child is
    taken and put into another world different from where he has
    been, he believes in that world. But he is not completely
    destroyed. He still has the memory of the world that he was
    taken from. So when he comes back or he manages to escape and
    he is given counseling and given a chance of a future and a
    chance of responsibility to his community, the child is able to
    come back to his normal.
        But most of the time, when these children come back, their
    families are destroyed. Like in Uganda, they live in displaced
    camps that are really bad, bad situation. They are ridiculed.
    They are abused, because these people live in a compact
    community camp that is really bad. And the abuse may not be
    purposefully, but because they are redundant, there is no work
    to do, so they continue abusing these kids. And then these kids
    don't get completely get psychologically healed.
        But if they are given a chance to a new environment, a new
    future--and, to me, a new future is education--that if they get
    and they know the sense of responsibility to their community,
    they easily can get healed.
        Mr. Conyers. Mr. Malinowski, have you anything--what are
    you thinking about the healing process?
        And this should be relatively easy legislation to enact;
    the next step is the healing.
        Mr. Malinowski. Well, I am not sure what I can add that
    could possibly be as eloquent as what we just heard from
    someone who has lived this.
        I do know that in the relatively fortunate societies where
    the active recruitment of children has stopped or is on the
    decline, like northern Uganda, like Sierra Leone, because of
    the peace process, there is an opportunity for the brave people
    that our Government often funds and supports in the aid
    community to deploy and to provide the kinds of services,
    particularly education, that kids desperately need to have the
    opportunity to live a more normal life.
        And I know that our Government is engaged in that. And we
    always love it when Members of Congress ask the State
    Department what they are doing and encourage them to do more
    and help them to do more. And I would encourage you to do that.
        And, of course, there are societies where there is no
    opportunity to do that, like, for example, Burma, where this
    problem continues to rage, and there is no opportunity for good
    people to go in and hug these kids and to give them a chance to
    lead a more normal life. And there our focus has to be on
    stopping it.
        So it is a two-pronged effort. We need both.
        Mr. Crane. Just to brief up, Mr. Chairman, I haven't asked
    this question yet. I have thought about it. In fact, I have had
    nightmares about it, frankly, sir. But the point is that there
    is an entire generation in West Africa that has no hope. Have
    you ever seen a child who looks you in the eye and has no hope?
    They can't read, they can't write, they have no jobs, there is
    no basis to even educate them. They don't even know their real
    names, and they don't even know where they came from.
        The 10 percent, maybe 5 percent, that finally work their
    way back to their village, they have a cleansing ceremony,
    which I observed. Very moving. A child throws himself to the
    feet of his elders, seeking forgiveness. The elders ask the
    community, do they want this now 6-, 5-, 7-year older child,
    who left at 7 years old, who comes in at 14 or 15 years old.
    They all nod, and they put him into a cleansing hut, and they
    take off his clothes, and they ritually wash him, and they give
    him new clothes, and he walks out, and the community accepts
    him back into the community. That is, like, one in a thousand.
    It is the other 999 that bother me.
        Frankly, there is nothing we can do, because there is not
    enough political will. Even though there are many, many groups
    trying, it just can't be done when you have that amount of--a
    generation lost. That is why we need to at least put a floor
    down saying, it is enough, and continue to move forward. Maybe
    we won't have any further Ugandas, Sierra Leones, Colombias,
    Cambodias, you name it.
        Thank you, sir.
        Mr. Conyers. Thank you very much.
        [5:06 p.m.]
        Mr. Scott. Thank you. I just had a couple of technical
    questions to, I guess, Professor Crane.
        If someone is prosecuted in the United States for a crime
    that was committed somewhere else, are there due process and
    evidentiary challenges that we need to address?
        Mr. Crane. Well, certainly, when one commits a crime
    overseas, there has to be some type of extraterritoriality to
    the legislation. Obviously, there has to be a jurisdictional
    hook by which we can bring that person into the United States
    and prosecute them for violation of any kind of law. I mean,
    that is just a basic jurisdictional issue.
        And so the issue is, if the person is here and it can be
    shown that they unlawfully recruited a child under the age of
    15 into an armed force, for example in Sierra Leone, and they
    are living in the United States, certainly one could argue that
    we might have the ability to prosecute that individual.
        Mr. Scott. I'm not talking about the jurisdiction. I'm
    talking about just the nuts and bolts of a prosecution. Where
    do you get your evidence? How does he defend himself? Due
    process and evidentiary challenges.
        Mr. Crane. Oh, excuse me. Absolutely. Well, certainly
    evidence is always a challenge, evidence is always an issue,
    because a lot of the evidence is overseas. However, if you
    have, for example, an individual who is in the United States on
    a green card, for example, and was found to have been a
    combatant in Sierra Leone, it would be largely up to
    individuals. It is witness testimony. There is nothing in
    writing. It is individuals saying, ``I saw this person kill
    this''--or recruit so-and-so.
        Mr. Scott. Have there been such prosecutions? I mean, where
    do you get your witnesses? Does a defendant have an opportunity
    to defend himself?
        Mr. Crane. Certainly. Of course, at the international
    level, we did prosecute. We did present evidence. And, in fact,
    I even provided you a picture of my lead-off witness in the
    case against the leadership of the Revolutionary United Front.
    He has ``AFRC RUF'' carved into his chest.
        You bring in the victims, you bring in the individuals who
    were victims of being recruited. So it is victim testimony. Of
    course, certainly they can be cross-examined. I mean,
    obviously, the rules of procedure and evidence that were
    created by the statute of the court certainly allow a complete,
    common law due process.
        In fact, it was a very familiar feeling to me when I was
    wearing the robes of a chief prosecutor in a tribunal as you
    would in practicing before the judge here. I mean, it is common
    law. But the bottom line is it is just good lawyering and
    getting your victims.
        I was impressed. We had 395 witnesses lined up to testify
    in all sorts of crimes, one of which was crimes against
    children; 394 showed up. And, as was alluded to, they proudly
    come forward and want to tell their testimony. They want to
    give--they do this for the families that aren't there and for
    the people who have been murdered in front of their eyes.
        Mr. Scott. Mr. Malinowski, do you see any due process or
    evidentiary challenges that we need to address?
        Mr. Malinowski. Well, yeah, the due process standards are
    the same, defendants' rights are the same, and the evidentiary
    standards are the same.
        If the evidence is overseas, it is harder, which is why--
    you know, if it happens in the United States, the Justice
    Department is likely to choose cases where the evidence is
    fairly clear, where witnesses are available, where they feel
    like they have a good chance of obtaining a conviction.
        And, you know, we mentioned the case of Chuckie Taylor,
    Charles Taylor's son. And that is a good example of a case
    where the Justice Department feels it can overcome those
    inherent challenges and set a precedent that will be very
    valuable. And I imagine that would be the same for any case
    that they take under the child soldier statute, as well.
        Mr. Scott. The statute of limitations in the bill is 10
    years. Is that too long or too short or just right?
        Mr. Crane. My feeling is it is--I think it is about right.
    I think it is about right. Ten years is sufficient. I think
    that kind of evidence will come out earlier than later. But,
    again, it remains to be seen. I'm speculating, frankly, Mr.
    Chairman. But 10 years seems to be right to me.
        Mr. Scott. And the penalty, 20 years to life if death
    occurs, how does that compare to other crimes? In context, is
    that an appropriate sentence?
        Mr. Crane. Yes, it is, Mr. Chairman. The standard at the
    international level is if you're charged with the unlawful
    recruitment of child soldiers under the age of 15, it can carry
    up to as much as what would be equivalent to a life sentence.
    There is no death penalty at the international level.
        So, on balance, this bill is right down the middle as far
    as statute of limitations, penalties, and even the standard of
    under the age of 15, in my opinion.
        Mr. Scott. Thank you.
        Mr. Gohmert?
        Mr. Gohmert. Just one clarification question, Mr.
    Malinowski. You mentioned if this were purely symbolic, that
    you wouldn't be here. And I'm curious, because, to me, since it
    appears it will not be used a great deal, so far not at all--as
    the occasion arisen, but there may be facts arising now--but is
    the symbolism to other countries of this Nation passing a law
    like this of any significance?
        Mr. Malinowski. Absolutely. And I would see that as a
    practical, rather than symbolic, benefit.
        Mr. Gohmert. I wasn't sure if you were saying----
        Mr. Malinowski. Yeah, I mean, ideally we would want to
    create a web of laws around the world, so that it is not just
    an issue of no safe haven in the United States, but no safe
    haven anywhere.
        The United States is a leader. If the Congress passes this
    law----
        Mr. Gohmert. We agree on that, because it looked like to me
    that the potential message to the rest of the world may be the
    most important aspect if this becomes law.
        Mr. Malinowski. It is a very important aspect, yes.
        Mr. Gohmert. Okay. I just wasn't sure if you felt that was
    important, from your comment. Thank you.
        Mr. Scott. Let me ask one final question.
        This says the prohibition is against someone doing the
    recruiting and whatnot. If we passed the bill, would it apply
    to anyone who has done this in the last 10 years or anyone who
    violates the provisions of the bill prospectively?
        That came up in some of our other bills. And it was felt
    that, since it is already illegal, that we would be intending a
    retroactive application. How does that fit in our little
    constitutional framework?
        Mr. Crane. Well, certainly, ex post facto laws and those
    types of things are problematic, and I take your point.
        The unlawful recruitment of children under the age of 15
    into an armed force, as our appellate court ruled, crystalized
    as customary international law as of 1996. So it is an
    international crime, certainly as of that date. In other words,
    all who have done it are on notice that it is unlawful to
    recruit.
        So, certainly, my argument would be, if we were doing this
    in a court of law, is that we are just enforcing what is
    already an international crime and using this as the mechanism
    by which we would do that.
        Mr. Scott. Do you have a different analysis, Mr.
    Malinowski?
        Mr. Malinowski. No, I would agree.
        Mr. Scott. I'd like to thank our witnesses for their
    testimony today, particularly Ms. Akallo, for your very moving
    testimony, and responses to questions.
        Members may have additional written questions for witnesses
    which will be forwarded to you, and we ask that if you're sent
    questions, that you answer them as promptly as you can so they
    may be made part of the record.
        And, without objection, the hearing record will remain open
    for 1 week for submission of additional materials.
        Without objection, this Subcommittee stands adjourned.
        [Whereupon, at 5:14 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]
                                A P P E N D I X

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                   Material Submitted for the Hearing Record