[House Hearing, 110 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
OVERSIGHT OF STATE-RUN JUVENILE CORRECTIONAL FACILITIES KNOWN AS `BOOT
CAMPS'
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME, TERRORISM,
AND HOMELAND SECURITY
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED TENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
DECEMBER 13, 2007
__________
Serial No. 110-127
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary
Available via the World Wide Web: http://judiciary.house.gov
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
39-706 PDF WASHINGTON DC: 2008
---------------------------------------------------------------------
For Sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office
Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: toll free (866) 512-1800; (202) 512�091800
Fax: (202) 512�092104 Mail: Stop IDCC, Washington, DC 20402�090001
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
JOHN CONYERS, Jr., Michigan, Chairman
HOWARD L. BERMAN, California LAMAR SMITH, Texas
RICK BOUCHER, Virginia F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, Jr.,
JERROLD NADLER, New York Wisconsin
ROBERT C. ``BOBBY'' SCOTT, Virginia HOWARD COBLE, North Carolina
MELVIN L. WATT, North Carolina ELTON GALLEGLY, California
ZOE LOFGREN, California BOB GOODLATTE, Virginia
SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas STEVE CHABOT, Ohio
MAXINE WATERS, California DANIEL E. LUNGREN, California
WILLIAM D. DELAHUNT, Massachusetts CHRIS CANNON, Utah
ROBERT WEXLER, Florida RIC KELLER, Florida
LINDA T. SANCHEZ, California DARRELL ISSA, California
STEVE COHEN, Tennessee MIKE PENCE, Indiana
HANK JOHNSON, Georgia J. RANDY FORBES, Virginia
BETTY SUTTON, Ohio STEVE KING, Iowa
LUIS V. GUTIERREZ, Illinois TOM FEENEY, Florida
BRAD SHERMAN, California TRENT FRANKS, Arizona
TAMMY BALDWIN, Wisconsin LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas
ANTHONY D. WEINER, New York JIM JORDAN, Ohio
ADAM B. SCHIFF, California
ARTUR DAVIS, Alabama
DEBBIE WASSERMAN SCHULTZ, Florida
KEITH ELLISON, Minnesota
Perry Apelbaum, Staff Director and Chief Counsel
Joseph Gibson, Minority Chief Counsel
------
Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security
ROBERT C. ``BOBBY'' SCOTT, Virginia, Chairman
MAXINE WATERS, California LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas
WILLIAM D. DELAHUNT, Massachusetts J. RANDY FORBES, Virginia
JERROLD NADLER, New York F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, Jr.,
HANK JOHNSON, Georgia Wisconsin
ANTHONY D. WEINER, New York HOWARD COBLE, North Carolina
SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas STEVE CHABOT, Ohio
ARTUR DAVIS, Alabama DANIEL E. LUNGREN, California
TAMMY BALDWIN, Wisconsin
BETTY SUTTON, Ohio
Bobby Vassar, Chief Counsel
Michael Volkov, Minority Counsel
C O N T E N T S
----------
DECEMBER 13, 2007
Page
OPENING STATEMENT
The Honorable Robert C. ``Bobby' Scott, a Representative in
Congress from the State of Virginia, and Chairman, Subcommittee
on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security..................... 1
The Honorable Louie Gohmert, a Representative in Congress from
the State of Texas, and Ranking Member, Subcommittee on Crime,
Terrorism, and Homeland Security............................... 2
The Honorable John Conyers, Jr., a Representative in Congress
from the State of Michigan, and Chairman, Committee on the
Judiciary...................................................... 4
WITNESSES
Ms. Adora Obi Nweze, President, Florida NAACP, Miami, FL
Oral Testimony................................................. 9
Prepared Statement............................................. 12
Ms. Doris MacKenzie, Professor, University of Maryland, College
Park, MD
Oral Testimony................................................. 16
Prepared Statement............................................. 18
Ms. Audrey Gibson, State Representative of Florida, District 15,
Jacksonville, FL
Oral Testimony................................................. 33
Prepared Statement............................................. 35
LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC., SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING
Prepared Statement of the Honorable John Conyers, Jr., a
Representative in Congress from the State of Michigan, and
Chairman, Committee on the Judiciary........................... 5
APPENDIX
Material Submitted for the Hearing Record........................ 47
OVERSIGHT OF STATE-RUN JUVENILE CORRECTIONAL FACILITIES KNOWN AS `BOOT
CAMPS'
----------
THURSDAY, DECEMBER 13, 2007
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism,
and Homeland Security
Committee on the Judiciary,
Washington, DC.
The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:37 p.m., in
room 2141, Rayburn House Office Building, the Honorable Robert
C. ``Bobby'' Scott (Chairman of the Subcommittee) presiding.
Present: Representatives Scott, Conyers, Johnson, Jackson
Lee, Gohmert and Coble.
Also Present: Representatives Meek and Corrine Brown of
Florida.
Staff present: Bobby Vassar, Subcommittee Chief Counsel;
Rachel King, Majority Counsel; Mario Dispenza (Fellow), BATFE
Detailee; Kimani Little, Minority Counsel; and Veronica Eligan,
Majority Professional Staff Member.
Mr. Scott. The Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and
Homeland Security will come to order.
I would first like to welcome our new Ranking Member, Judge
Gohmert, who is taking over for my Virginia colleague, Randy
Forbes. We have worked together on a number of things, and we
look forward to working with you on this Subcommittee.
I would like to welcome everyone to the hearing regarding
State-run juvenile correction facilities known as ``boot
camps.'' Boot camps are modeled after military training camps
and are considered as an alternative to conventional juvenile
institutions, instilling discipline, structure and education in
a manner that youths are not receiving at conventional school
and in their home environment. Although the boot camp concept
has its advocate, the reality is that we have had widespread
reports of abuse by camp employees and reports of several
fatalities at camps around the country.
The system is simply not performing as intended, and
children in many of these camps are in danger. One of the most
recent high profile deaths is that of Martin Lee Anderson who
died in a Florida boot camp on January 6, 2006. His case
garnered significant public attention because there was a
videotape of guards beating him because they believed that he
was faking illness to get out of exercise. After beating him,
the guards forced him to inhale ammonia smelling salts. When he
lost consciousness, the guards realized that he was seriously
ill. But by the time medical help had arrived, it was too late
to save his life. The guards and a nurse were charged with
manslaughter and gross neglect. But in October 2007, all were
acquitted of all charges. However, the case was the impetus to
shut down some of the juvenile boot camp facilities.
According to Professor Doris MacKenzie from the University
of Maryland Department of Criminology, who is with us today,
poor training, inadequate oversight and misguided policies have
caused the abusive environments that many boot camps have
become. Twenty States still operate boot camps despite the
ongoing problems with them. The most recent death occurred in
Colorado in May of this year to a 15-year-old boy named Caleb
Jensen died from an untreated staff infection while
incarcerated at Alternative Youth Adventures, AYA, in Colorado.
He contracted an infection, realized he was ill and told
facility employees over a period of several days that he was
not well. But his claims were ignored. And by the time the
counselor sat down to talk to him, Caleb slumped over and died
from the very illness he had been complaining about for those
days. Although Colorado revoked AYA's license to operate, no
charges have been filed against any of the employees.
Another example of boot camp deaths include 14-year-old
Gina Score who collapsed during a forced run at a South Dakota
boot camp. She was 5'4'' and weighed 226 pounds, obviously
unfit for rigorous exercise, yet the guards forced her to run
2.7 miles in 77 degree heat with 81 percent humidity. She
passed out. Guards believed that she too was faking it, and
they left her on the ground for 3 hours until she died of heat
stroke, her body temperature having reached 108 degrees.
Employees were charged with child abuse but were acquitted.
Then there was Travis Parker, 13-years old who was
incarcerated in a Georgia boot camp when he was killed by
guards who held him to the ground for more than an hour while
he pleaded for his asthma inhaler. They didn't give it to him
because they said he had a habit of asking for an inhaler,
quote, whenever he was restrained. Six camp employees were
indicted for felony murder, child cruelty and involuntary
manslaughter, but the district attorney dropped all of the
charges after a judge ruled in favor of the defendants in a
pretrial motion.
One thing in common to Martin Lee Anderson, Gina score,
Travis Parker and Caleb Jensen is that none of the responsible
guards were ever held criminally liable for the children's
deaths. This hearing will focus on whether States have begun to
take adequate steps to ensure the protection of the civil
rights of those who are committed to State-run boot camps and
whether the boot camp concept has merit from a criminal justice
policy perspective.
Right now I would like to recognize our distinguished
colleague, the Ranking Member of the Subcommittee, Congressman
Louie Gohmert from the First Congressional District of Texas.
Mr. Gohmert. Thank you Chairman Scott. And I want to thank
the witnesses for being here. I am looking forward to working
with Chairman Scott and other Members of the Subcommittee on
the important issues of this Subcommittee's jurisdiction. I
also want to express my admiration for my colleague, former
Ranking Member Randy Forbes of Virginia, who served us this
year as the Ranking Member of the Subcommittee. It is my hope,
Mr. Chairman, you and I can maintain as effective a
relationship as you and Ranking Member Forbes did earlier in
this Congress.
Today's hearing on State-run juvenile facilities does
concern me to some extent with regard to the scarce use of
oversight resources that we have. I am tremendously personally
sympathetic for anyone who has suffered, which has been laid
out so articulately by the Chairman. And we are all aware of
the tragic death of a juvenile at Panama City and the acquittal
of the boot camp guards. That matter is now under Federal
investigation, sounds appropriate, and we should do nothing to
interfere with that investigation.
But there is not a single correctional boot camp maintained
by the Federal Government. The prosecution and confinement of
juveniles is almost exclusively a State issue. Approximately 93
percent of all criminal prosecutions are conducted by State and
local prosecutors and the percentage of State prosecutions of
juveniles is even higher than that. According to the Bureau of
Prisons, there are only 178 juveniles in the entire Federal
prison system. Because there are so few juveniles in the
system, the Bureau of Prisons does not even maintain a facility
for juveniles and instead contracts with State, local and
private entities for the confinement of juvenile offenders in
the Federal system.
Prison boot camp programs started in the 1980's and were
started for young male offenders originally convicted of
nonviolent offenders. As the name suggests, boot camp programs
are modelled after military boot camp training and involve a
daily regimen, usually of physical training, work assignments
and vocational training. Over half the States developed boot
camp programs in the hopes of lowering the rates of recidivism
among released offenders and reducing costs of housing
offenders in traditional juvenile detention facilities and
reducing crowding in those detention facilities. By most
measures, the boot camp experiment seems to have met with mixed
success in meeting those three goals. In recent years, some
States have made the determination that the benefits are
outweighed by the costs or problems with their boot camp
programs. Other States determined they are better off keeping
their boot camp programs. Neither case, I believe and hope that
it will ultimately be agreed that those decisions should be
made without undue influence from those of us in the Federal
Government.
Having been on the juvenile board of our county in Texas
where I served as a district judge and later a chief justice,
we looked at the proposition of having a day boot camp. We
looked at other boot camps, talked to a lot of people that were
involved in boot camps. We liked the idea of a day boot camp
better than a residential boot camp and ultimately went with
that and found there were many benefits from that.
But as I think I understand from our witnesses and some of
the indications, if all you do is a military-style regimen of
physical activity, you are missing the entire boat. It has to
be mixed with education and other assistance, vocational
training, things like that, in order to help juveniles reduce
recidivism. And additionally, I think everyone would agree, if
you are going to have a program like that, it does require
adequate accountability, monitoring and sometimes these
programs have not had that. In any event, I look forward to
hearing the testimony of the witnesses. And I will yield back
the balance of my time, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Scott. Thank you.
The Chair recognizes the Chair of the full Judiciary
Committee, Mr. Conyers, for a statement.
Mr. Conyers. Thank you, Chairman Scott. And I welcome Judge
Gohmert to the Subcommittee as the new Ranking Member. And this
is a very active Committee. And this subject matter is one that
leads me to briefly say the following: I hope this hearing and
any others that may follow it lead to a reexamination of the
concept and purpose of juvenile boot camps. It has been
observed already that these facilities don't seem to be any
more successful than other types of juvenile justice programs
and do little more or sometimes less to prevent recidivism. It
is also noted that education and drug rehabilitation programs
play a major role in helping young people rehabilitate
themselves. The second thing on my mind as we start these
hearings is that we need to ensure that it is a crime for a
child to be killed while being detained in a boot camp. We must
ensure that children are not killed in boot camps and that
there is adequate investigation and prosecution if harm,
certainly death, occurs as a result of some mis-running or poor
training on the part of those that are involved in these boot
camps.
I would like to recommend to this Committee that we inspect
and visit every boot camp in the United States of America,
whether it is State or private. I mean, this isn't a matter of
opinion of how we--whether you like boot camp or lump boot
camps. These things, to me, at the outset--and I try to keep an
open mind about everything I do here--have been a grievous
mistake based upon a false criminal justice premise. And so I
am anxious to hear from you who have been closer to this than
me.
And I ask unanimous consent to put my statement in the
record.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Conyers follows:]
Prepared Statement of the Honorable John Conyers, Jr., a Representative
in Congress from the State of Michigan, and Chairman, Committee on the
Judiciary
Mr. Scott. Without objection.
The gentleman's time has expired. Thank you very much, Mr.
Chairman, for your statement.
We have three witnesses with us today. Representative
Hastings was here earlier to introduce our first witness, but
we have many Representatives from Florida that have an interest
in this hearing. And the first witness will be introduced by
the gentleman from Florida, Mr. Meek.
Mr. Meek. Thank you so very much Mr. Chairman, and I am
honored to be here to not only introduce the witness but what I
consider a constituent in my district also and a great leader
in the country. Adora Obi Nweze, president of the Florida NAACP
and also a member of the national board has been a long-time
educator in Miami/Dade County and also beginning her work as a
teacher and working her way up to regional supervisor. I had an
opportunity to work with Ms. Nweze when I was a member of the
State legislature where we had a number of issues. And she has
been a part of numerous committees and projects and building
partnerships between the Florida Department of Education, also
the Florida Department of Health, Corrections, Juvenile
Justice, Elderly Affairs and Emergency Management. She has a
bachelors degree from Fayetteville University and a masters of
education degree from the University of Miami. She is also
certified in the State of Florida in areas of elementary
education, educational leadership guidance and counseling,
social studies, mental retardation and specific learning
disabilities. And Mr. Chairman, I believe that she will be able
to give the full scope of the very issue that we are talking
about here today. Thank you.
Mr. Scott. Thank you. And I understand that she has a plane
to catch so she will not be able to be here for the full
hearing. And we apologize for the delay. We are almost 2 hours
late in starting.
Our second witness will be Dr. Doris Layton MacKenzie, who
is a professor at the Department of Criminology and Criminal
Justice at the University of Maryland and director of the
Evaluation Research Group. She has an extensive publication
record in the criminal justice area, including, among other
issues, what works to reduce crime in the community, inmate
adjustment to prison, impact to intermediate sanctions on
recidivism and boot camp prisons. She has directed research
projects on, among other topics, multi-State study on
correctional boot camps and descriptive study of female boot
camps. She has a bachelors degree masters degree and doctorate
each in psychology and each from the University of
Pennsylvania.
Our third witness will be introduced by the gentle lady
from Florida, Ms. Corrine Brown.
Ms. Brown. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for
holding the important hearing today at the request of the
Florida delegation. It is a pleasure for me to introduce
Florida State Representative Audrey Gibson from my home State
of Jacksonville, Florida. She is a native of Jacksonville,
north side, she attended the local school in Jacksonville and
graduated from Florida State University with a bachelors degree
in criminology. She is the proud mother of an adult daughter
and two sons. During her career, Representative Gibson has
worked as a congressional district administrator and as a
business community liaison. Representative Gibson sits on
numerous Committees and is affiliated with many worthy causes.
In her current capacity as State representative of District 15,
she is committed to fighting for her constituents as well as
all people of the State of Florida. She is also the recipient
of many awards and recognition, including the Girl Scouts of
Gateway Council, in 2006, Women of Distinction award, and most
important, 2006, Legislator of the Year award from the North
Side Florida Association of Realtors. It is my honor to
introduce Ms. Gibson who I have known all her life.
Mr. Scott. Thank you. Thank you, Representative Brown. All
of the witnesses have submitted statements, and each of the
witnesses' complete written statements will be made as a part
of the record. But I would ask each of the witnesses to
summarize your testimony in 5 minutes or less. And to help you
stay within that time, there is a lighting device on the table.
When you have 1 minute left, the light will go from green to
yellow, and then finally to red when the 5 minutes are up. We
will now hear from our first witness who I have known for a
long time, Ms. Nweze.
TESTIMONY OF ADORA OBI NWEZE, PRESIDENT,
FLORIDA NAACP, MIAMI, FL
Ms. Nweze. Good evening, Mr. Chairman, Members of the
Subcommittee, and to the distinguished Congressman Conyers and
distinguished guests.
My name is Adora Obi Nweze, and it is my honor to be here
today in the capacity as president of the Florida State
Conference, NAACP. With more than 50 NAACP units in the State
of Florida, we are proud to represent and pursue the civil
rights interests of all Floridians of color throughout the
State. I would like to take this opportunity to thank
Congressman Alcee Hastings, Congresswoman Corrine Brown and
Congressman Kendrick Meek for their leadership in pursuing this
matter and bringing it to the attention of the Subcommittee.
In addition to serving as president of the Florida State
Conference since 2000, I am currently on the NAACP National
Board of Directors and have served as a branch president in
Miami and Opa-Locka for 13 years. Mr. Chairman, Members of the
Subcommittee, I was born and reared in the Miami area, and I am
a Florida girl from my heart, and I must tell you that in all
my years of community activism in Miami and throughout the
State, that the mistreatment of African American youth by the
State of Florida is perhaps the one issue that has raised the
most concern, the most anxiety and the most outrage among
African Americans throughout the State.
Black Floridians are outraged that the State continues to
neglect, harm and even kill our youth and to appear to get away
with it. I am therefore here today to ask you to use your
oversight powers to urge the United States Department of
Justice to launch a thorough investigation of the State of
Florida's Juvenile Justice System. It is incumbent upon the
Federal Government to ensure that the rights of Florida's
children are protected. And from our point of view, it does not
appear they are.
According to the latest data, while just over 21 percent of
Florida's children are African American, more than 42 percent
of the children who are involved in the Florida Department of
Juvenile Justice in fiscal year 2006 were Black. Similarly,
while just over 32 percent of all of Florida's children are
racial ethnic minorities, more than 55 percent of those
involved in DJJ in 2006 were children of color. This disparate
amount means that the NAACP and all Floridians concerned about
the civil rights of our children is disproportionately
concerned about how our younger citizens are treated by the
Florida DJJ.
Every day it seems the Florida NAACP unit receives a
complaint about a child in Florida's Juvenile Justice System
who is being abused, harmed or neglected. Perhaps the best
known case of the mistreatment of our youth in recent years is
the case of Martin Lee Anderson. In 2006, Martin was a 14-year-
old. Of course, you have gone over that and you know that
story. The ending of that story, however, is that there is now
an investigation by the Federal division. We hope that that
will be coming to some resolution, that would be responsive to
the issue. At first, the official State autopsy determined
Martin had died as a result of complications from sickle cell
anemia. However, a second autopsy done at the request of
Martin's family in conjunction with the NAACP found that Martin
had died of suffocation due to the action of the guards.
What made Martin's death unique is not that he died at the
hands of State officials while in their custody but that his
death was videotaped, which enabled the entire world to witness
the beating, torture and eventual killing of a 14-year-old boy.
For your information, the video can be seen at the NAACP Web
site at www.naacp.org.
I would like to take and say at this point that the U.S.
Department of Justice through Mr. Thomas L. Battles, a regional
director of DOJ's Community Relations Service, has provided the
NAACP with invaluable assistance throughout the Martin Lee
Anderson case, specifically Mr. Battles and his office provided
vital technical assistance to us as he planned marches,
protests and town hall meetings.
And finally, as you know, the result is what it was: The
legislature in April of 2006 passed the Martin Lee Anderson Act
closing the State's five juvenile boot camps. The legislation
was signed into law by then Governor Jeb Bush on July 1, 2006.
I would hasten to say, however, that this legislation only
affected the State-run juvenile boot camps. What we must
understand is that privately run State-funded juvenile
detention facilities are still plagued by abuse and neglect.
And the people who are suffering the most are our children.
This was too late for Martin; as well as for Willie Durden, who
died at age 17 at Cyprus Creek Juvenile Correction Center; Omar
Paisley, who died at age 17 at the Miami-Dade Regional Juvenile
Detention Center; Daniel Matthews, who died at age 17 at
Pinellas Regional Juvenile Detention Center; Brian Farmer, who
died at age 17 at the Okeechobee Officer Correctional Center;
Shawn Smith, who died at age 13 at the Volusia Regional
Detention Center; and Michael Wiltise who died at age 12 at
camp E-Kel-ETU in Marion County, Florida. All of these young
men, these children, died between 2000 and 2006 while in the
custodial care of the State of Florida. It is important to me
that we state the names of each of these young people for the
record as their deaths are quickly becoming forgotten, just
like them. The juvenile justice system in Florida has the
unfortunate habit of dehumanizing the children who were sent
there just when they need to be shown care, love and attention
and taught that they are worth something.
And so I thank you, Mr. Chair, Members of the Subcommittee,
the others who have worked so hard to try to make sense not
only of Martin's death as well as other children who have died
in custody. As president of the Florida NAACP as well as an
educated mother and grandmother, I am committed to working with
you to ensure that every American youth, regardless of their
race, is given a decent chance. Thank you again. I will be
happy to answer any questions.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Nweze follows:]
Prepared Statement of Adora Obi Nweze
Mr. Scott. Thank you.
Our normal procedure is to hear from all witnesses before
we respond to questions, but because we are 2 hours late and
Ms. Nweze has to leave, we will go out of order. And if people
have specific questions for her, we will entertain those at
this time.
And I just have one. The Florida NAACP has received many
complaints for the juvenile system. Is that from boot camps
only or from other parts of the juvenile system?
Ms. Nweze. It is including all of the facilities, not only
boot camps but certainly the detention centers, some who--
residential as well as day programs.
Mr. Scott. Thank you.
Mr. Gohmert.
Mr. Gohmert. Well, thank you. And it is an honor to have
someone who has dedicated their life to helping others so much
as you have.
I was a little concerned when I--in your statement earlier,
you said you were concerned about the children of color and the
mistreatment of African American youth. So I was relieved to
hear at the end when you said you were concerned about every
American youth, regardless of race. And we appreciate--
obviously your life speaks volumes about what you have done to
try to help others. And we may disagree about ways to try to
help them. But clearly you have a heart for helping others. And
I thank you for being here.
Mr. Scott. Thank you. Mr. Conyers.
Mr. Conyers. Thank you very much.
Do we need boot camps?
Ms. Nweze. Well, research has shown that they don't work.
They really don't work as they are presently structured.
Mr. Conyers. Because we have got enough wrong with the
criminal justice system and youth, and the juvenile system
tacked on becomes another huge part of the problem.
Ms. Nweze. Right.
Mr. Conyers. And of course, it is all people involved, but
it is Black people mostly the victims. Now, let's not fly out
of here thinking that we don't know that.
Ms. Nweze. Right.
Mr. Conyers. And so the question for me--and then this
Committee has, goodness knows, a big job. But this is a small,
tiny part of our examination of the criminal justice system.
I want to hear the case for boot camps. And I am trying to
be neutral about it, but I haven't been around here this long
being neutral. It comes out of a misguided theory. And I don't
expect you to be able to go into this. But I want everybody to
follow this with me, and that is why we are on television----
Mr. Scott. I think our next witness will have a lot to say
about boot camps.
Mr. Conyers. We want to get down--this is not a meeting to
find out how to improve boot camps. I mean, do they have a
worthwhile purpose or not? And to me, that is the jumping-off
point. And so I join in with the commendations of the Ranking
Member of the Committee to thank you for your testimony.
Ms. Nweze. Thank you.
Mr. Scott. The gentleman from North Carolina.
Mr. Coble. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will be very brief. I
want to put a question to the witness.
Good to have you all with us, by the way.
If she doesn't know the answer, maybe I will submit the
question to the Chair. Boot camps are operational in how many
States? Does anyone know that?
Mr. Scott. Approximately 20 right now.
Mr. Coble. Twenty?
Mr. Scott. I think.
Mr. Coble. And Ms. Nweze, I will assume logistically the
way it works, a person is prosecuted and convicted, and then,
at that point, the court of jurisdiction assigns the offender
or the defendant to a boot camp? Is that the way it goes
logistically in Florida?
Ms. Nweze. I am sorry. I didn't understand your question. I
heard you. But you need to repeat it so I am sure.
Mr. Coble. I said logistically a juvenile is prosecuted and
convicted. And upon his conviction, I presume the court of
jurisdiction would then assign the defendant or the convicted
defendant to an appropriate boot camp. Is that the way it
works?
Ms. Nweze. Generally, yes.
Mr. Coble. Okay. I have no further questions.
Mr. Scott. Thank you, Ms. Nweze, for your testimony and for
your responses. I regret that we had to--we were so late
getting started because of votes on the floor. But I appreciate
your work on this issue, on the State NAACP and on the national
board. I have seen you at many conventions, and it is good to
see you today.
Ms. Nweze. Yes, sir. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Scott. Thank you.
Professor MacKenzie.
TESTIMONY OF DORIS MacKENZIE, PROFESSOR,
UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND, COLLEGE PARK, MD
Ms. MacKenzie. I am honored to be here. I thank the
Committee, Subcommittee for inviting me.
I began studying correctional boot camps in 1987. And when
I talk about correctional boot camps, I am including both camps
for both juveniles and adults. At that time, I was awarded a
grant from the National Institute of Justice, and I have
continued to study them since that time. Most recently, the
University of Maryland was awarded a grant, and I studied the
correctional boot camp for adults at Maryland. I have then had
the opportunity to visit a large number of these camps to
observe activities; to consult with staff, administrators and
juveniles; review evaluations; collect data. I have visited
programs for males and females; for juveniles and adults; and
in Federal, State and local jurisdictions.
Beginning my research on the boot camps, I began by asking
people what they expected to be accomplished by the boot camps.
They had many goals. But the primary goal was always--almost
always--recidivism. So I began studying the recidivism and most
recently have done a meta-analysis, examining all the studies
that we could identify that have examined the outcome of
recidivism of boot camps. They compared people that went to the
boot camps, juveniles and adults, to people that had some other
sentence or spent time in a facility or in the community. This
was a large number of juveniles and adults that were included
in these studies. We only used studies that were considered to
be adequate scientifically. So the research designed was
strong. If the major goal of boot camps is to reduce
recidivism, there is little reason to continue these programs.
They do not reduce recidivism. This has been the continual
result that I found from my earliest studies to this
examination of all the studies that I could find in a meta-
analysis. There is no evidence that they successfully reduced
recidivism.
People do have other goals of the programs though. And so I
have also tried to examine the other goals. One of them was to
reduce prison crowding. People expected the programs to reduce
prison crowding, partly because they would reduce recidivism,
which of course they don't, but also by releasing the offenders
and delinquents early if they took part in this rigorous boot
camp program. The trouble is that many of the judges decide to
send juveniles and adults to the boot camp instead of giving
them an alternative community treatment. So instead of sending
them to probation, they end up putting them into a prison,
incarcerating them in the boot camps or net widening.
The other area that we studied in the boot camps was to
look at the environment of the boot camps. We did find some
positive results from the boot camps. If we look at the
environments, the juveniles and staff evaluated the program as
more positive, the boot camp programs. The trouble is, we were
comparing them to the traditional facilities of the juveniles
where there are large facilities, not small--not small
programs, as they had for the boot camps. You also must
remember, when we study in our lab in the boot camps, we are
allowed in those that are probably less apt to prove to be
abusive and have better trained staff.
I have just recently done a review of what works in
corrections, looking at a large number of correctional
programs, including the boot camps. I identified 284 studies
that have adequate research designs. And that is very important
because much research in corrections is very poorly done. I can
conclude that programs that are based on control, punishment,
strict rules, confrontations similar to boot camps or scared
straight programs are not effective.
However, we do have programs that are effective. These are
the programs that we have referred to as rehabilitation,
education, drug court, drug treatment, cognitive skills
programs. We do have programs that reduce recidivism. But boot
camps are not something that reduces recidivism.
For years I have said we should consider boot camps because
we could put therapy within the camps. But looking at the
recent number of deaths and injuries in these camps, I have
changed my mind, and I no longer support--I think it is too
dangerous to continue with the boot camps. We don't have a
justification.
[The prepared statement of Ms. MacKenzie follows:]
Prepared Statement of Doris MacKenzie
Mr. Scott. Thank you very much, Professor MacKenzie.
Representative Gibson.
TESTIMONY OF AUDREY GIBSON, STATE REPRESENTATIVE OF FLORIDA,
DISTRICT 15, JACKSONVILLE, FL
Ms. Gibson. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and Members of the
Committee. And certainly I want to thank my congresswoman for
inviting me today.
I want to cover a couple of points that I kind of took out
of my testimony. First and foremost, I want to make sure that
it is known that I don't believe in coddling criminals. I do
believe in personal responsibility, but I believe that it has
to be taught. And I don't think that boot camps in any way,
shape or form teach that to our young people.
I also think that the best opportunity we have to reduce
our increase in our corrections systems throughout the United
States is by rehabilitating juveniles. I think that we all know
that the African-American population is over represented in our
corrections system for adults as well as juveniles. And so
therein lies, I think, the comments that there is great concern
for African American children while there is concern for all
children.
I don't think that there is enough mental health
programming within the confines of a boot camp. And largely,
most of these children that go into boot camps are poor
children; their health has not been monitored over the years;
and so they go into a program that primarily focuses on
rigorous physical activity.
The other issue has to do with it being run by sheriffs'
offices, or as was stated earlier, it is a State-run type of
program, which doesn't in my mind mean that we shouldn't have
national outcry, but we certainly should have standards or
should have had, because I certainly don't believe or support
the continuation of boot camps. But there has to be--or there
should have been, I am sorry, a standard of training within the
facilities so that we did not have the deaths that we have had.
And that not only includes the medical component, which has
been insufficient, but also the personnel who are used to
handling adults and not children. And certainly that is what
those young people are; they are developing children.
I think it is far better or we are far better served if we
do have programs like multisystemic therapy, which we utilize
in Florida. And I think they also utilize it in Mississippi, if
I am not mistaken. Functional family therapy, because taking a
juvenile into a setting that doesn't include making sure that
the family is treated, if you will, it doesn't complete the
cycle. And so in order to recognize reduced recidivism rates,
then we need to certainly include the family and, as was
mentioned earlier, make sure that there is an educational
component; there is an employment training component. Because
we are trying to prepare the person--this young person who has
gotten into trouble--not to go into the correctional system. We
are trying to prepare that person to come back and be
productive in the community. And boot camps certainly do not do
that. In terms of the dollars being spent being State dollars,
if you will, I wrote a note that certainly there are Federal
dollars that fund juvenile justice programs. And those dollars
that are State dollars may be used as a match to draw down
those dollars from the Fed. And in looking at whether or not
someone wants to continue boot camps or not, recognize the
national importance of this issue, certainly we shouldn't be
using State dollars as match dollars to draw down Federal
dollars if any of the State dollars are going to be used for
boot camps as we continue on. Let's see.
As I said before, as my time runs out, I think we are far
better served, and we have far more statistics that show
prevention programs work, therapy programs work, wilderness
programs even, like Outward Bound, where a young person can
find out where their strengths and talents lie and then draw on
those to take them through life. We have a high murder rate
going on right now in Jacksonville. And I think it certainly
involves a lot of our young people. I think adults as well as
children could certainly benefit from the inclusion of conflict
resolution in any program. And with that, I thank you very
much.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Gibson follows:]
Prepared Statement of Audrey Gibson
Mr. Scott. Thank you, Representative Gibson.
Now we will have rounds of questions from Members. We will
limit ourselves to the 5 minutes. And I will recognize myself
first.
Professor MacKenzie, just on the question of recidivism,
you indicated on several occasions that there is no reduction
in recidivism at boot camps compared to other facilities. You
also have suggested that boot camps, like their sister programs
at military schools, are not conducive to assisting teens to
make and keep long-term change. Is that accurate? And if so,
could you expand on that?
Ms. MacKenzie. That is accurate for the boot camps, the
adjudicated delinquents and offenders, there is no evidence--
the overall evidence is that they do not reduce recidivism.
They don't change the delinquents so that they don't continue
in criminal activity.
Mr. Scott. In terms of safety, did you study the safety of
the boot camps?
Ms. MacKenzie. We studied the perceived safety of the boot
camps from the perspective of juveniles in the camps and staff.
And we compared that to traditional facilities and safety. The
juveniles in the boot camps felt they were safer in most areas.
I think that reflects the fact that the strict rules keep them
from being hurt by other juveniles in the facility. They were,
however, more afraid of staff. So there was some fear of staff.
Mr. Scott. Well, Ms. Gibson, many children have died in
boot camps. Is there a difference in the death rate at boot
camps as opposed to other facilities?
Ms. MacKenzie. That is really where we need some research.
We do not have that research. The other thing is, we don't
really have a very good handle on how many boot camps are still
there because there are State boot camps, but there are also
many that are run by local jurisdictions. So we need to know
where they are and then compare the injury and death rates in
the camps to the other facilities where these young people
would be.
Mr. Scott. You mentioned local, local government-run. What
about privately run?
Ms. MacKenzie. And there are also privately run, usually
contracted with government.
Mr. Scott. And we don't know whether or not there is a
difference in private or local-run facilities in terms of
safety?
Ms. MacKenzie. As far as their reported safety, we did not
find any differences between the juvenile programs that were
run by public or private, not for profit.
Mr. Scott. And if there is no difference in recidivism, are
the boot camps cheaper than the alternatives?
Ms. MacKenzie. The boot camps are only cheaper if the
people are released after serving a shorter period of time. And
the concern here is net widening. Many of the judges make the
decision to send someone into the boot camp instead of an
alternative, like probation. That makes it much more expensive.
So some State systems for adults have used it to reduce their
prison population. New York State in particular because of the
Rockefeller drug laws has used their boot camp for adults to
release people earlier. They reported some savings. But they
have an enormous number of people that they put through the
boot camp in a year, 5,000. In comparison, the small programs
run for juveniles are probably not saving any money.
Mr. Scott. Thank you.
Representative Gibson, you serve on the Juvenile Justice
Committee. Is that a subcommittee in the Statehouse?
Ms. Gibson. Yes.
Mr. Scott. You have gotten rid of all of the State-run boot
camps. What happens to children now that would have been
sentenced to a boot camp?
Ms. Gibson. They are either house arrested--because boot
camps in Florida were for nonviolent offenders. And so they are
either house arrested or probation, community probation or
detention centers.
Mr. Scott. Has anyone ascertained whether or not there has
been more or less crime as a result of the closing of the
State-run boot camps?
Ms. Gibson. Not that I am aware of.
Mr. Scott. What can be done to make these boot camp--if we
are not having boot camps, what can be made to deal with the
safety of the children? Professor MacKenzie, we are still
having some boot camps. Is there anything that can be done to
enhance the safety?
Ms. MacKenzie. Have strict requirements about the need for
training the staff would be one of the first things. I think
that, from my experience, many of the staff were not well
trained to identify stress and physical and mental stress that
the juveniles face in these boot camps. And I am very worried
about how long the staff has training. I mean, it is very short
periods of time. They are often given--they participate in some
kind of training activity. And that just won't give them what
they need.
Mr. Scott. Thank you. My time has expired.
Judge Gohmert.
Mr. Gohmert. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And let me just mention, our Chair of the Committee has
stepped out. But he was going to address, he had indicated he
wanted to hear evidence on both sides. And I can tell you, Mr.
Chairman, we had tried to get some of the witnesses from
programs that I am aware of in Texas that have had a good deal
of success. And since we were not able to offer their airfare
or travel expenses to get here, they didn't have the
wherewithal to do so. They operate on tight budgets and just
could not make the transition; plus they have small staffs, and
it is difficult when you take somebody out for 2 days and it is
not completely job related to what they are doing. But there is
evidence out there, and I hope we will have a chance to get
some of that additional evidence before the Committee.
Dr. MacKenzie, you made the statement that--and in your
written statement, it is in all capitalized letters, boot
camps, ``do not reduce recidivism,'' and you went a step
further here. And in your written statement, you said, ``I
believe the research is clear on this.'' you went a step
further than that, and always understand as I do that
testifying falsely here is a crime. And I guess the old judge
comes out when somebody makes a statement that is so bold. You
went beyond that. You said, ``There is no evidence they reduce
recidivism.'' so since I am familiar with some places where
they have reduced recidivism, let me just ask you, are you not
aware of one single boot camp anywhere in the Nation that has
actually reduced recidivism?
Ms. MacKenzie. I am aware of some boot camp studies that
have shown a reduction in recidivism.
Mr. Gohmert. I am talking about one boot camp anywhere in
the country that itself reduced recidivism amongst those who
have come through that boot camp.
Ms. MacKenzie. The studies study a particular boot camp.
So, yes, I would know--I do know of--offhand, I can't tell you
exactly which States. But I can tell you, yes, there were some.
And in the testimony, I reported that some did have lower
recidivism from----
Mr. Gohmert. And it seems, and you pointed this out in the
study, it seems like--in those that have had some success,
usually they incorporate more than just a physical regimen.
They use the education and training, and the life skills has
not always been terribly helpful, but there is a dimension of
that that can be. And I wanted to be sure if you were aware of
those or not. But you also said you were allowed in boot camps
that were less apt to be abusive. Did you make attempts to be
in boot camps you knew were more abusive?
Ms. MacKenzie. We attempted to go into every juvenile boot
camp that was in existence when we started the study of the
environments of juvenile boot camps.
Mr. Gohmert. Is that just in Florida or all across the
country?
Ms. MacKenzie. Across the country.
Mr. Gohmert. That is a lot of boot camps. You made an
inquiry----
Ms. MacKenzie. I gave the numbers in here. It was about 48
or 49 boot camps at that point that we could identify.
Mr. Gohmert. Okay. Well, then, I notice the most recent
study that you cited I think was 2001. Have you reviewed any
study since then that are being cited?
Ms. MacKenzie. Reviewed studies for the recidivism or----
Mr. Gohmert. Well, the studies that were cited had the most
recent ones. There were a couple of them I think that were
2001. Those were the studies that were cited as footnotes to
your statement. Did you have any other opinion to your
statement of other studies?
Ms. MacKenzie. The studies in the meta-analysis that we
conducted, we conducted the meta-analysis 2 years ago. That is
referenced on----
Mr. Gohmert. Okay. My time is--okay. Thank you.
But I do want to ask Representative Gibson--and thank you
for coming. I know it is a hardship for anybody that comes up
here and especially when you sit around like this for us. But I
was concerned that it appears that Florida legislature has
taken the step--and you have made indications of things that
concerned you that, you know, the abuses obviously should
require some action. But I just want to ask you, is the Florida
legislature incapable of addressing boot camp problems unless
the Federal Government tells you what and how to do?
Ms. Gibson. Thank you for your question. I believe that
what Florida did was change from a boot camp model to something
called star academies. However, we had no takers with the
change in the structure even though the dollar amount was
there. And of course, it is a shared program between usually a
sheriff's department and the State. And the reason we had no
takers is because of the training. There is a different kind of
training required to be a sheriff as it is to be over
juveniles. There are different takedown methods taught and
other kinds of training that individuals need to have when they
work with juveniles. So we had no takers for the program.
Mr. Gohmert. Okay. Thank you. But you feel like Florida
could handle and legislate requirements for its own boot camps
is really--or did you need the Federal Government to tell you
how to do that?
Ms. Gibson. Let me go back to what I believe I said in my
initial comments, and if I didn't, I certainly meant to; that I
believe that the issue of juvenile justice is a national issue.
Children are children from State to State. And there needs to
be standards put in place nationally so we don't have these
kinds of issues. And I believe the Federal is national, and I
believe there needs to be involvement. And we wouldn't be where
we are today, I don't think, if we had national standards to
deal with our juvenile criminals.
Mr. Gohmert. And if we don't pass national standards,
Florida, you are saying, would not be able to adequately take
care of the boot camp issue within its own State?
Ms. Gibson. Florida won't have any boot camps, first of
all.
Mr. Gohmert. Okay. Thank you.
Mr. Scott. Thank you. The gentleman's time has expired. I
believe the gentle lady from Texas came in next.
The gentle lady from Texas is recognized.
Ms. Jackson Lee. I thank the distinguished Chairman. You
know, this is the kind of hearing I am just grateful that, as
we have moved to the new 110th Congress and we are working with
our colleagues, friends on the other side of the aisle, that we
have been able to initiate questions like this. And I want to
put firmly on the record my appreciation to Chairman Scott for
giving us a very broad road map. I chair the Congressional
Children's Caucus, and it is holistic in its approach entering
programs, health issues, such as obesity, gun violence over the
years that has been in place and children's exploitation. And
so we look at things in a broad manner, and certainly we
recognize that children have to be disciplined; they have to be
rehabilitated. And when the boot camp first started maybe a
decade ago, people were excited. CNN was covering it. It looked
like it would be bite-your-tongue fun, a good way to discipline
children. We didn't know that it was going to become a death
trap. Or those who had the good intentions didn't know that, in
places around the country, it would result in being a death
trap for children.
Now, I have just come off of the floor discussing the
propensity and epidemic of youth violence. One on one, one of
the most conspicuous examples, of course, was the four
youngsters who broke into the home of Sean Taylor which
resulted in his death. And I say that to recognize that we have
a dual problem of violence perpetrated by youngsters, and then,
of course, how do you save their lives? How do you intervene?
And how do you work with respect to intervention?
But I would like to ask Representative Gibson--and I thank
you for your leadership, coming from Florida. I am not sure if
you are from the area--forgive me for missing your testimony. I
was on the floor. I only know the story of the youngster who
was flat on his back and big hurly, burly people stepping on
him. Is this Mr. Anderson? Is that the young man?
Ms. Gibson. Yes.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Help me understand why we should be
questioning boot camps across the country and why it poses a
severe problem, more so than it solves problems of youth crime,
which I assume this young man was in because of some incident,
criminal incident. And I assume maybe you are from this area.
As I said, forgive me. I came in, and I am looking at some
notes. But help us understand--I understand Florida has
eliminated the boot camps?
Ms. Gibson. Yes.
Ms. Jackson Lee. By State action. Is it all gone? Or they
are in the process of being eliminated?
Ms. Gibson. No, following this Martin Lee Anderson
incident, actually the boot camps were closed, and the children
were moved.
Ms. Jackson Lee. What year was that?
Ms. Gibson. 2004 I think.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Four. That is okay. Why don't I just let
you answer the question and then, doctor, would you follow up--
Professor, would you follow up and tell us, if we wanted to
overhaul this concept of boot camps and we wanted to find a fix
and we are looking at a number of legislative initiatives, more
intervention, what--eliminate it totally? Or is there another
model that could be used?
Representative Gibson, just tell us about the situation in
Florida.
Ms. Gibson. Well--and thank you. I think the video speaks
for itself and speaks very loudly to the fact that folks
obviously didn't know how to handle this young man. And there
was a lack of training. There was a lack of consideration for
his physical ability for him to do whatever it was that they
wanted him to do.
Ms. Jackson Lee. His size compared to their size.
Ms. Gibson. Absolutely.
And the fact that they had stuffed ammonia tablets up his
nose is very egregious to me and I don't see how anyone looking
at that and knowing what happened, that they could even think
that the boot camp model works.
The other part of that, I think I put in my testimony, is
that as far as I know, boot camps are military in nature,
designed to prepare people to go to war. We are not preparing
our children to go to war. We are preparing them to come out
and be productive citizens. And I don't think that the boot
camps do that. Nor are they inclusive, as I said before--I
think you were right--of deep therapy, mental health issues
about--with our young folks today, we are finding that not only
in Florida, but I believe across the United States that there
are a myriad of mental health issues that certainly aren't
addressed in a short-term boot camp. And the recidivism rate
that I think we are after with our taxpayer dollars is not
recognized. And the aftercare programs that some of the boot
camps have had, the programs are very fragmented, and so there
is no help actually for the child or the family.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Quickly, Professor, do you have an
alternative model, quickly?
Ms. MacKenzie. The alternative would be to really use the
programs that we know are effective, the treatment programs
that include education, focus on drug use and drug education
and drug problems like drug courts. Multisystemic therapy is
another one that looks very promising. We have programs that--
cognitive skills would be another one. We have programs that
are effective. We might want to try, given that the
environments of boot camps--the staff and juveniles did say
positive things about them--we might want to try small
structured programs without the military basic training model.
Ms. Jackson Lee. And the roughness that ensues?
Ms. MacKenzie. The roughness.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Let me thank you and I yield back. I thank
the Chairman very much.
Mr. Scott. Thank you. The gentleman from Georgia, Mr.
Johnson.
Mr. Johnson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Why is it that roughness would not work in terms of
discipline, in terms of physical requirements? In other words,
do the pushups, do the sit-ups, do the chin-ups, do the laps as
part of the disciplinary process, as part of the teaching of
respect of authority that sometimes many young men and women
are missing and which can contribute to them being thrust into
the juvenile justice system for a rebellious young person who
has had no disciplinary guidance, who may not have achieved on
a physical level, may never have done a pushup or a sit-up and
who basically lacks respect for authority, couldn't boot camp,
if properly administered and if supplemented with various
psychological training methods and that kind of thing, couldn't
it be something that could be positive, or is it--and I meant
this question for both of you--or is it just the whole boot
camp model needs to be just done away with because it has no
merit whatsoever? Is that what I hear you all saying?
And I am sorry that I was not here at the beginning of your
testimony. So I didn't hear. And I am kind of asking this
question out of some skepticism of tidbits of what I have heard
just sitting here so far, and also probably a lack of knowledge
about how to positively impact juveniles who have gone astray.
So I will listen to your responses. Spare the rod, spoil
the child. You know, those kinds of things that we have heard.
You know, talk to me.
Ms. Gibson. Let me start by saying this. I am the mother of
two sons that I raised by myself. Both of them have graduated
from college and I didn't spare the rod nor the mouth. In terms
of physical activity as a way of disciplining young people, I
don't think that it should be used that way.
Mr. Johnson. It may not be just to discipline them, it may
be to give them some discipline and also give them a means of
achieving something and becoming more physical, helping with
the psychosomatic issues. In other words I can achieve
physically, I am strong, you know, I can commit myself to more
positive pursuits as opposed to what got me in trouble in the
first place; I can become Michael Jordan or somebody because I
can achieve physically.
Ms. Gibson. I made references earlier before you came to
successes of wilderness-type programs and Outward Bound
programs, and there is another program in Florida called About
Face that is run by our National Guard. And these programs do
have a physical component, rope climbing and things of that
nature.
But they also focus on team building and trust, in addition
to the physical component, which is not present in a boot camp.
If you get up at 0-dark-30, I call it, and are immediately
subjected to running the track in the heat or just pushups,
that to me does not instill discipline and doesn't allow a
child to totally tap into some talents they may find in the
rope climbing or in the canoeing or being out in the wilderness
communing with nature, if you will.
Mr. Johnson. Nothing positive about it at all? Getting up
early in the morning, being required to do some laps?
Ms. MacKenzie. As I said before, there does appear to be
some positive attitudes in the boot camp toward the staff and
the staff toward the juveniles. So there is something positive.
My worry is with these injuries and deaths in the camp that the
military--putting that basic training model in isn't effective.
My research would say that it doesn't have an influence on
later criminal activities. It is not criminogenic learning to
change physically, it isn't really going to change you to keep
you away from a life of crime. You may need consequences for
your actions and that may be beneficial. But we could do many
of these things in a different model of a juvenile facility,
not using the basic training military model.
Mr. Scott. Thank you very much.
Let me just follow up with one quick question. The Ranking
Member, Judge Gohmert, mentioned some of the aspects of
programs that seemed to work; that is, when you have a boot
camp with just the physical activities, it doesn't seem to
work, but when you add in education, some of the psychological
services, mental health perhaps, when you have that,
particularly the education, that it makes a positive
difference. That is also what I have been led to believe. Is
that what research shows?
Ms. MacKenzie. The research in that area is very limited.
We don't have enough information and the programs don't appear
to be very extensive in the boot camps. So the research--I
would not make a strong statement about whether the boot camps
that now exist that have treatment and therapy within the camps
have an impact on recidivism. It is questionable at this point,
the results of the research.
Mr. Scott. Thank you. Judge Gohmert, do you have any other
questions?
Mr. Gohmert. Since we weren't able to get witnesses, people
that I talked to, if I could just mention a couple of things.
For one thing, you know, like my friend Mr. Johnson mentioned,
there are some youth who have a problem being that they have
never had any self-discipline, they have never been taught any
discipline. And in talking to parents and teachers of those who
have had boot camps--and when I say boot camp, apparently there
is a little miscommunication, because I consider a boot camp
not just to have the physical component, but to have these
other components where education is a part, and the day boot
camps with which I am familiar had the officers of the boot
camp available any time of the day on call. They would show up
and take the child out of the classroom who was being
disruptive and talk to them. And teachers tell me they could
not believe the difference in a child who began to learn and
start to reach their God-given potential.
I have had parents--there was one mother who said she never
could get her child to go to bed, and one night she got fed up
and she called the sergeant major that ran the boot camps and
said, ``My son won't go to bed.'' He said, ``Put him on the
line.'' She put him on the line and he said, ``Son, go to
bed.'' And the kid went to bed.
And she said, ``How did you do that?'' he said, ``Well, I
don't know. We need to work on this a little bit.''
But we found that many times the parents needed some
training as an additional component because we are talking
about youth. And Representative Gibson, I think you alluded to
another issue. When you are dealing with youth, training
becomes all the more critical because--Dr. Mackenzie, you are
dealing with--these are not hardened adults. These are still
moldable children. But Representative Gibson, you mentioned the
STAR program and I don't know if it is the same thing, but that
is what we were--the boot camps that I looked at in Texas back
when I was on the juvenile board, they called themselves STAR
programs and they had the additional components. But it just
seemed like, Mr. Johnson--sometimes the discipline is needed in
order to get their attention. And one problem we ran into--or I
have heard from others--they would have kids get so motivated,
turn their studies around, and then after graduating high
school, want to join the military. And they would say, ``Well,
you have had these problems in your background, so we really
don't want you.'' and I hate to see that happen when somebody
has turned their lives around.
But anyway, I just wanted to mention that for the record. I
have heard some great stories of people turned around. But
certainly the detriment of losing a precious child requires
extra training, requires extra accountability and monitoring.
And I appreciate the opportunity to mention these other
aspects.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Scott. Thank you. And I would like to thank our
witnesses for their testimony today. Members may have
additional questions to ask. They will be submitted to you in
writing and we would ask you to forward your answers as
promptly as possible so they can be made part of the record.
And, without objection, the hearing record will remain open
for 1 week for the submission of additional materials, and I
assume the gentleman from Texas may have additional statements.
At this time, I would like to introduce for the record a
statement from the Thayer Learning Center and one from
Representative Hastings and Representative Corrine Brown.
[The prepared statement of the Thayer Learning Center
follows:]
[The prepared statement of Mr. Hastings of Florida
follows:]
[The prepared statement of Ms. Corrine Brown of Florida
follows:]
Mr. Scott. Is there any other business to come before the
Subcommittee? Without objection, the Subcommittee stands
adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 3:45 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]
A P P E N D I X
----------
Material Submitted for the Hearing Record
Prepared Statement of the Honorable Sheila Jackson Lee, a
Representative in Congress from the State of Texas, and Member,
Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security
Prepared Statement of the Honorable Alcee L. Hastings, a Representative
in Congress from the State of Florida
Prepared Statement of the Honorable Corrine Brown, a Representative in
Congress from the State of Florida