    [House Hearing, 110 Congress]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

    OVERSIGHT OF STATE-RUN JUVENILE CORRECTIONAL FACILITIES KNOWN AS `BOOT
                                     CAMPS'

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   BEFORE THE

                       SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME, TERRORISM,
                             AND HOMELAND SECURITY

                                     OF THE

                           COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
                            HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                           ONE HUNDRED TENTH CONGRESS

                                 FIRST SESSION

                                   __________

                               DECEMBER 13, 2007

                                   __________

                               Serial No. 110-127

                                   __________

             Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary

          Available via the World Wide Web: http://judiciary.house.gov

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                           COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

                     JOHN CONYERS, Jr., Michigan, Chairman
    HOWARD L. BERMAN, California         LAMAR SMITH, Texas
    RICK BOUCHER, Virginia               F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, Jr.,
    JERROLD NADLER, New York                 Wisconsin
    ROBERT C. ``BOBBY'' SCOTT, Virginia  HOWARD COBLE, North Carolina
    MELVIN L. WATT, North Carolina       ELTON GALLEGLY, California
    ZOE LOFGREN, California              BOB GOODLATTE, Virginia
    SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas            STEVE CHABOT, Ohio
    MAXINE WATERS, California            DANIEL E. LUNGREN, California
    WILLIAM D. DELAHUNT, Massachusetts   CHRIS CANNON, Utah
    ROBERT WEXLER, Florida               RIC KELLER, Florida
    LINDA T. SANCHEZ, California         DARRELL ISSA, California
    STEVE COHEN, Tennessee               MIKE PENCE, Indiana
    HANK JOHNSON, Georgia                J. RANDY FORBES, Virginia
    BETTY SUTTON, Ohio                   STEVE KING, Iowa
    LUIS V. GUTIERREZ, Illinois          TOM FEENEY, Florida
    BRAD SHERMAN, California             TRENT FRANKS, Arizona
    TAMMY BALDWIN, Wisconsin             LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas
    ANTHONY D. WEINER, New York          JIM JORDAN, Ohio
    ADAM B. SCHIFF, California
    ARTUR DAVIS, Alabama
    DEBBIE WASSERMAN SCHULTZ, Florida
    KEITH ELLISON, Minnesota

                Perry Apelbaum, Staff Director and Chief Counsel
                     Joseph Gibson, Minority Chief Counsel
                                     ------

            Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security

                 ROBERT C. ``BOBBY'' SCOTT, Virginia, Chairman

    MAXINE WATERS, California            LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas
    WILLIAM D. DELAHUNT, Massachusetts   J. RANDY FORBES, Virginia
    JERROLD NADLER, New York             F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, Jr.,
    HANK JOHNSON, Georgia                Wisconsin
    ANTHONY D. WEINER, New York          HOWARD COBLE, North Carolina
    SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas            STEVE CHABOT, Ohio
    ARTUR DAVIS, Alabama                 DANIEL E. LUNGREN, California
    TAMMY BALDWIN, Wisconsin
    BETTY SUTTON, Ohio

                          Bobby Vassar, Chief Counsel

                        Michael Volkov, Minority Counsel

                                C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------

                               DECEMBER 13, 2007

                                                                       Page

                               OPENING STATEMENT

    The Honorable Robert C. ``Bobby' Scott, a Representative in
      Congress from the State of Virginia, and Chairman, Subcommittee
      on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security.....................     1
    The Honorable Louie Gohmert, a Representative in Congress from
      the State of Texas, and Ranking Member, Subcommittee on Crime,
      Terrorism, and Homeland Security...............................     2
    The Honorable John Conyers, Jr., a Representative in Congress
      from the State of Michigan, and Chairman, Committee on the
      Judiciary......................................................     4

                                   WITNESSES

    Ms. Adora Obi Nweze, President, Florida NAACP, Miami, FL
      Oral Testimony.................................................     9
      Prepared Statement.............................................    12
    Ms. Doris MacKenzie, Professor, University of Maryland, College
      Park, MD
      Oral Testimony.................................................    16
      Prepared Statement.............................................    18
    Ms. Audrey Gibson, State Representative of Florida, District 15,
      Jacksonville, FL
      Oral Testimony.................................................    33
      Prepared Statement.............................................    35

              LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC., SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING

    Prepared Statement of the Honorable John Conyers, Jr., a
      Representative in Congress from the State of Michigan, and
      Chairman, Committee on the Judiciary...........................     5

                                    APPENDIX

    Material Submitted for the Hearing Record........................    47

    OVERSIGHT OF STATE-RUN JUVENILE CORRECTIONAL FACILITIES KNOWN AS `BOOT
                                     CAMPS'

                                  ----------

                          THURSDAY, DECEMBER 13, 2007

                  House of Representatives,
                  Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism,
                                  and Homeland Security
                                    Committee on the Judiciary,
                                                        Washington, DC.

        The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:37 p.m., in
    room 2141, Rayburn House Office Building, the Honorable Robert
    C. ``Bobby'' Scott (Chairman of the Subcommittee) presiding.
        Present: Representatives Scott, Conyers, Johnson, Jackson
    Lee, Gohmert and Coble.
        Also Present: Representatives Meek and Corrine Brown of
    Florida.
        Staff present: Bobby Vassar, Subcommittee Chief Counsel;
    Rachel King, Majority Counsel; Mario Dispenza (Fellow), BATFE
    Detailee; Kimani Little, Minority Counsel; and Veronica Eligan,
    Majority Professional Staff Member.
        Mr. Scott. The Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and
    Homeland Security will come to order.
        I would first like to welcome our new Ranking Member, Judge
    Gohmert, who is taking over for my Virginia colleague, Randy
    Forbes. We have worked together on a number of things, and we
    look forward to working with you on this Subcommittee.
        I would like to welcome everyone to the hearing regarding
    State-run juvenile correction facilities known as ``boot
    camps.'' Boot camps are modeled after military training camps
    and are considered as an alternative to conventional juvenile
    institutions, instilling discipline, structure and education in
    a manner that youths are not receiving at conventional school
    and in their home environment. Although the boot camp concept
    has its advocate, the reality is that we have had widespread
    reports of abuse by camp employees and reports of several
    fatalities at camps around the country.
        The system is simply not performing as intended, and
    children in many of these camps are in danger. One of the most
    recent high profile deaths is that of Martin Lee Anderson who
    died in a Florida boot camp on January 6, 2006. His case
    garnered significant public attention because there was a
    videotape of guards beating him because they believed that he
    was faking illness to get out of exercise. After beating him,
    the guards forced him to inhale ammonia smelling salts. When he
    lost consciousness, the guards realized that he was seriously
    ill. But by the time medical help had arrived, it was too late
    to save his life. The guards and a nurse were charged with
    manslaughter and gross neglect. But in October 2007, all were
    acquitted of all charges. However, the case was the impetus to
    shut down some of the juvenile boot camp facilities.
        According to Professor Doris MacKenzie from the University
    of Maryland Department of Criminology, who is with us today,
    poor training, inadequate oversight and misguided policies have
    caused the abusive environments that many boot camps have
    become. Twenty States still operate boot camps despite the
    ongoing problems with them. The most recent death occurred in
    Colorado in May of this year to a 15-year-old boy named Caleb
    Jensen died from an untreated staff infection while
    incarcerated at Alternative Youth Adventures, AYA, in Colorado.
    He contracted an infection, realized he was ill and told
    facility employees over a period of several days that he was
    not well. But his claims were ignored. And by the time the
    counselor sat down to talk to him, Caleb slumped over and died
    from the very illness he had been complaining about for those
    days. Although Colorado revoked AYA's license to operate, no
    charges have been filed against any of the employees.
        Another example of boot camp deaths include 14-year-old
    Gina Score who collapsed during a forced run at a South Dakota
    boot camp. She was 5'4'' and weighed 226 pounds, obviously
    unfit for rigorous exercise, yet the guards forced her to run
    2.7 miles in 77 degree heat with 81 percent humidity. She
    passed out. Guards believed that she too was faking it, and
    they left her on the ground for 3 hours until she died of heat
    stroke, her body temperature having reached 108 degrees.
    Employees were charged with child abuse but were acquitted.
        Then there was Travis Parker, 13-years old who was
    incarcerated in a Georgia boot camp when he was killed by
    guards who held him to the ground for more than an hour while
    he pleaded for his asthma inhaler. They didn't give it to him
    because they said he had a habit of asking for an inhaler,
    quote, whenever he was restrained. Six camp employees were
    indicted for felony murder, child cruelty and involuntary
    manslaughter, but the district attorney dropped all of the
    charges after a judge ruled in favor of the defendants in a
    pretrial motion.
        One thing in common to Martin Lee Anderson, Gina score,
    Travis Parker and Caleb Jensen is that none of the responsible
    guards were ever held criminally liable for the children's
    deaths. This hearing will focus on whether States have begun to
    take adequate steps to ensure the protection of the civil
    rights of those who are committed to State-run boot camps and
    whether the boot camp concept has merit from a criminal justice
    policy perspective.
        Right now I would like to recognize our distinguished
    colleague, the Ranking Member of the Subcommittee, Congressman
    Louie Gohmert from the First Congressional District of Texas.
        Mr. Gohmert. Thank you Chairman Scott. And I want to thank
    the witnesses for being here. I am looking forward to working
    with Chairman Scott and other Members of the Subcommittee on
    the important issues of this Subcommittee's jurisdiction. I
    also want to express my admiration for my colleague, former
    Ranking Member Randy Forbes of Virginia, who served us this
    year as the Ranking Member of the Subcommittee. It is my hope,
    Mr. Chairman, you and I can maintain as effective a
    relationship as you and Ranking Member Forbes did earlier in
    this Congress.
        Today's hearing on State-run juvenile facilities does
    concern me to some extent with regard to the scarce use of
    oversight resources that we have. I am tremendously personally
    sympathetic for anyone who has suffered, which has been laid
    out so articulately by the Chairman. And we are all aware of
    the tragic death of a juvenile at Panama City and the acquittal
    of the boot camp guards. That matter is now under Federal
    investigation, sounds appropriate, and we should do nothing to
    interfere with that investigation.
        But there is not a single correctional boot camp maintained
    by the Federal Government. The prosecution and confinement of
    juveniles is almost exclusively a State issue. Approximately 93
    percent of all criminal prosecutions are conducted by State and
    local prosecutors and the percentage of State prosecutions of
    juveniles is even higher than that. According to the Bureau of
    Prisons, there are only 178 juveniles in the entire Federal
    prison system. Because there are so few juveniles in the
    system, the Bureau of Prisons does not even maintain a facility
    for juveniles and instead contracts with State, local and
    private entities for the confinement of juvenile offenders in
    the Federal system.
        Prison boot camp programs started in the 1980's and were
    started for young male offenders originally convicted of
    nonviolent offenders. As the name suggests, boot camp programs
    are modelled after military boot camp training and involve a
    daily regimen, usually of physical training, work assignments
    and vocational training. Over half the States developed boot
    camp programs in the hopes of lowering the rates of recidivism
    among released offenders and reducing costs of housing
    offenders in traditional juvenile detention facilities and
    reducing crowding in those detention facilities. By most
    measures, the boot camp experiment seems to have met with mixed
    success in meeting those three goals. In recent years, some
    States have made the determination that the benefits are
    outweighed by the costs or problems with their boot camp
    programs. Other States determined they are better off keeping
    their boot camp programs. Neither case, I believe and hope that
    it will ultimately be agreed that those decisions should be
    made without undue influence from those of us in the Federal
    Government.
        Having been on the juvenile board of our county in Texas
    where I served as a district judge and later a chief justice,
    we looked at the proposition of having a day boot camp. We
    looked at other boot camps, talked to a lot of people that were
    involved in boot camps. We liked the idea of a day boot camp
    better than a residential boot camp and ultimately went with
    that and found there were many benefits from that.
        But as I think I understand from our witnesses and some of
    the indications, if all you do is a military-style regimen of
    physical activity, you are missing the entire boat. It has to
    be mixed with education and other assistance, vocational
    training, things like that, in order to help juveniles reduce
    recidivism. And additionally, I think everyone would agree, if
    you are going to have a program like that, it does require
    adequate accountability, monitoring and sometimes these
    programs have not had that. In any event, I look forward to
    hearing the testimony of the witnesses. And I will yield back
    the balance of my time, Mr. Chairman.
        Mr. Scott. Thank you.
        The Chair recognizes the Chair of the full Judiciary
    Committee, Mr. Conyers, for a statement.
        Mr. Conyers. Thank you, Chairman Scott. And I welcome Judge
    Gohmert to the Subcommittee as the new Ranking Member. And this
    is a very active Committee. And this subject matter is one that
    leads me to briefly say the following: I hope this hearing and
    any others that may follow it lead to a reexamination of the
    concept and purpose of juvenile boot camps. It has been
    observed already that these facilities don't seem to be any
    more successful than other types of juvenile justice programs
    and do little more or sometimes less to prevent recidivism. It
    is also noted that education and drug rehabilitation programs
    play a major role in helping young people rehabilitate
    themselves. The second thing on my mind as we start these
    hearings is that we need to ensure that it is a crime for a
    child to be killed while being detained in a boot camp. We must
    ensure that children are not killed in boot camps and that
    there is adequate investigation and prosecution if harm,
    certainly death, occurs as a result of some mis-running or poor
    training on the part of those that are involved in these boot
    camps.
        I would like to recommend to this Committee that we inspect
    and visit every boot camp in the United States of America,
    whether it is State or private. I mean, this isn't a matter of
    opinion of how we--whether you like boot camp or lump boot
    camps. These things, to me, at the outset--and I try to keep an
    open mind about everything I do here--have been a grievous
    mistake based upon a false criminal justice premise. And so I
    am anxious to hear from you who have been closer to this than
    me.
        And I ask unanimous consent to put my statement in the
    record.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Conyers follows:]

    Prepared Statement of the Honorable John Conyers, Jr., a Representative
    in Congress from the State of Michigan, and Chairman, Committee on the
                                   Judiciary

        Mr. Scott. Without objection.
        The gentleman's time has expired. Thank you very much, Mr.
    Chairman, for your statement.
        We have three witnesses with us today. Representative
    Hastings was here earlier to introduce our first witness, but
    we have many Representatives from Florida that have an interest
    in this hearing. And the first witness will be introduced by
    the gentleman from Florida, Mr. Meek.
        Mr. Meek. Thank you so very much Mr. Chairman, and I am
    honored to be here to not only introduce the witness but what I
    consider a constituent in my district also and a great leader
    in the country. Adora Obi Nweze, president of the Florida NAACP
    and also a member of the national board has been a long-time
    educator in Miami/Dade County and also beginning her work as a
    teacher and working her way up to regional supervisor. I had an
    opportunity to work with Ms. Nweze when I was a member of the
    State legislature where we had a number of issues. And she has
    been a part of numerous committees and projects and building
    partnerships between the Florida Department of Education, also
    the Florida Department of Health, Corrections, Juvenile
    Justice, Elderly Affairs and Emergency Management. She has a
    bachelors degree from Fayetteville University and a masters of
    education degree from the University of Miami. She is also
    certified in the State of Florida in areas of elementary
    education, educational leadership guidance and counseling,
    social studies, mental retardation and specific learning
    disabilities. And Mr. Chairman, I believe that she will be able
    to give the full scope of the very issue that we are talking
    about here today. Thank you.
        Mr. Scott. Thank you. And I understand that she has a plane
    to catch so she will not be able to be here for the full
    hearing. And we apologize for the delay. We are almost 2 hours
    late in starting.
        Our second witness will be Dr. Doris Layton MacKenzie, who
    is a professor at the Department of Criminology and Criminal
    Justice at the University of Maryland and director of the
    Evaluation Research Group. She has an extensive publication
    record in the criminal justice area, including, among other
    issues, what works to reduce crime in the community, inmate
    adjustment to prison, impact to intermediate sanctions on
    recidivism and boot camp prisons. She has directed research
    projects on, among other topics, multi-State study on
    correctional boot camps and descriptive study of female boot
    camps. She has a bachelors degree masters degree and doctorate
    each in psychology and each from the University of
    Pennsylvania.
        Our third witness will be introduced by the gentle lady
    from Florida, Ms. Corrine Brown.
        Ms. Brown. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for
    holding the important hearing today at the request of the
    Florida delegation. It is a pleasure for me to introduce
    Florida State Representative Audrey Gibson from my home State
    of Jacksonville, Florida. She is a native of Jacksonville,
    north side, she attended the local school in Jacksonville and
    graduated from Florida State University with a bachelors degree
    in criminology. She is the proud mother of an adult daughter
    and two sons. During her career, Representative Gibson has
    worked as a congressional district administrator and as a
    business community liaison. Representative Gibson sits on
    numerous Committees and is affiliated with many worthy causes.
    In her current capacity as State representative of District 15,
    she is committed to fighting for her constituents as well as
    all people of the State of Florida. She is also the recipient
    of many awards and recognition, including the Girl Scouts of
    Gateway Council, in 2006, Women of Distinction award, and most
    important, 2006, Legislator of the Year award from the North
    Side Florida Association of Realtors. It is my honor to
    introduce Ms. Gibson who I have known all her life.
        Mr. Scott. Thank you. Thank you, Representative Brown. All
    of the witnesses have submitted statements, and each of the
    witnesses' complete written statements will be made as a part
    of the record. But I would ask each of the witnesses to
    summarize your testimony in 5 minutes or less. And to help you
    stay within that time, there is a lighting device on the table.
    When you have 1 minute left, the light will go from green to
    yellow, and then finally to red when the 5 minutes are up. We
    will now hear from our first witness who I have known for a
    long time, Ms. Nweze.

               TESTIMONY OF ADORA OBI NWEZE, PRESIDENT,
                        FLORIDA NAACP, MIAMI, FL

        Ms. Nweze. Good evening, Mr. Chairman, Members of the
    Subcommittee, and to the distinguished Congressman Conyers and
    distinguished guests.
        My name is Adora Obi Nweze, and it is my honor to be here
    today in the capacity as president of the Florida State
    Conference, NAACP. With more than 50 NAACP units in the State
    of Florida, we are proud to represent and pursue the civil
    rights interests of all Floridians of color throughout the
    State. I would like to take this opportunity to thank
    Congressman Alcee Hastings, Congresswoman Corrine Brown and
    Congressman Kendrick Meek for their leadership in pursuing this
    matter and bringing it to the attention of the Subcommittee.
        In addition to serving as president of the Florida State
    Conference since 2000, I am currently on the NAACP National
    Board of Directors and have served as a branch president in
    Miami and Opa-Locka for 13 years. Mr. Chairman, Members of the
    Subcommittee, I was born and reared in the Miami area, and I am
    a Florida girl from my heart, and I must tell you that in all
    my years of community activism in Miami and throughout the
    State, that the mistreatment of African American youth by the
    State of Florida is perhaps the one issue that has raised the
    most concern, the most anxiety and the most outrage among
    African Americans throughout the State.
        Black Floridians are outraged that the State continues to
    neglect, harm and even kill our youth and to appear to get away
    with it. I am therefore here today to ask you to use your
    oversight powers to urge the United States Department of
    Justice to launch a thorough investigation of the State of
    Florida's Juvenile Justice System. It is incumbent upon the
    Federal Government to ensure that the rights of Florida's
    children are protected. And from our point of view, it does not
    appear they are.
        According to the latest data, while just over 21 percent of
    Florida's children are African American, more than 42 percent
    of the children who are involved in the Florida Department of
    Juvenile Justice in fiscal year 2006 were Black. Similarly,
    while just over 32 percent of all of Florida's children are
    racial ethnic minorities, more than 55 percent of those
    involved in DJJ in 2006 were children of color. This disparate
    amount means that the NAACP and all Floridians concerned about
    the civil rights of our children is disproportionately
    concerned about how our younger citizens are treated by the
    Florida DJJ.
        Every day it seems the Florida NAACP unit receives a
    complaint about a child in Florida's Juvenile Justice System
    who is being abused, harmed or neglected. Perhaps the best
    known case of the mistreatment of our youth in recent years is
    the case of Martin Lee Anderson. In 2006, Martin was a 14-year-
    old. Of course, you have gone over that and you know that
    story. The ending of that story, however, is that there is now
    an investigation by the Federal division. We hope that that
    will be coming to some resolution, that would be responsive to
    the issue. At first, the official State autopsy determined
    Martin had died as a result of complications from sickle cell
    anemia. However, a second autopsy done at the request of
    Martin's family in conjunction with the NAACP found that Martin
    had died of suffocation due to the action of the guards.
        What made Martin's death unique is not that he died at the
    hands of State officials while in their custody but that his
    death was videotaped, which enabled the entire world to witness
    the beating, torture and eventual killing of a 14-year-old boy.
    For your information, the video can be seen at the NAACP Web
    site at www.naacp.org.
        I would like to take and say at this point that the U.S.
    Department of Justice through Mr. Thomas L. Battles, a regional
    director of DOJ's Community Relations Service, has provided the
    NAACP with invaluable assistance throughout the Martin Lee
    Anderson case, specifically Mr. Battles and his office provided
    vital technical assistance to us as he planned marches,
    protests and town hall meetings.
        And finally, as you know, the result is what it was: The
    legislature in April of 2006 passed the Martin Lee Anderson Act
    closing the State's five juvenile boot camps. The legislation
    was signed into law by then Governor Jeb Bush on July 1, 2006.
    I would hasten to say, however, that this legislation only
    affected the State-run juvenile boot camps. What we must
    understand is that privately run State-funded juvenile
    detention facilities are still plagued by abuse and neglect.
    And the people who are suffering the most are our children.
    This was too late for Martin; as well as for Willie Durden, who
    died at age 17 at Cyprus Creek Juvenile Correction Center; Omar
    Paisley, who died at age 17 at the Miami-Dade Regional Juvenile
    Detention Center; Daniel Matthews, who died at age 17 at
    Pinellas Regional Juvenile Detention Center; Brian Farmer, who
    died at age 17 at the Okeechobee Officer Correctional Center;
    Shawn Smith, who died at age 13 at the Volusia Regional
    Detention Center; and Michael Wiltise who died at age 12 at
    camp E-Kel-ETU in Marion County, Florida. All of these young
    men, these children, died between 2000 and 2006 while in the
    custodial care of the State of Florida. It is important to me
    that we state the names of each of these young people for the
    record as their deaths are quickly becoming forgotten, just
    like them. The juvenile justice system in Florida has the
    unfortunate habit of dehumanizing the children who were sent
    there just when they need to be shown care, love and attention
    and taught that they are worth something.
        And so I thank you, Mr. Chair, Members of the Subcommittee,
    the others who have worked so hard to try to make sense not
    only of Martin's death as well as other children who have died
    in custody. As president of the Florida NAACP as well as an
    educated mother and grandmother, I am committed to working with
    you to ensure that every American youth, regardless of their
    race, is given a decent chance. Thank you again. I will be
    happy to answer any questions.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Nweze follows:]

                     Prepared Statement of Adora Obi Nweze

        Mr. Scott. Thank you.
        Our normal procedure is to hear from all witnesses before
    we respond to questions, but because we are 2 hours late and
    Ms. Nweze has to leave, we will go out of order. And if people
    have specific questions for her, we will entertain those at
    this time.
        And I just have one. The Florida NAACP has received many
    complaints for the juvenile system. Is that from boot camps
    only or from other parts of the juvenile system?
        Ms. Nweze. It is including all of the facilities, not only
    boot camps but certainly the detention centers, some who--
    residential as well as day programs.
        Mr. Scott. Thank you.
        Mr. Gohmert.
        Mr. Gohmert. Well, thank you. And it is an honor to have
    someone who has dedicated their life to helping others so much
    as you have.
        I was a little concerned when I--in your statement earlier,
    you said you were concerned about the children of color and the
    mistreatment of African American youth. So I was relieved to
    hear at the end when you said you were concerned about every
    American youth, regardless of race. And we appreciate--
    obviously your life speaks volumes about what you have done to
    try to help others. And we may disagree about ways to try to
    help them. But clearly you have a heart for helping others. And
    I thank you for being here.
        Mr. Scott. Thank you. Mr. Conyers.
        Mr. Conyers. Thank you very much.
        Do we need boot camps?
        Ms. Nweze. Well, research has shown that they don't work.
    They really don't work as they are presently structured.
        Mr. Conyers. Because we have got enough wrong with the
    criminal justice system and youth, and the juvenile system
    tacked on becomes another huge part of the problem.
        Ms. Nweze. Right.
        Mr. Conyers. And of course, it is all people involved, but
    it is Black people mostly the victims. Now, let's not fly out
    of here thinking that we don't know that.
        Ms. Nweze. Right.
        Mr. Conyers. And so the question for me--and then this
    Committee has, goodness knows, a big job. But this is a small,
    tiny part of our examination of the criminal justice system.
        I want to hear the case for boot camps. And I am trying to
    be neutral about it, but I haven't been around here this long
    being neutral. It comes out of a misguided theory. And I don't
    expect you to be able to go into this. But I want everybody to
    follow this with me, and that is why we are on television----
        Mr. Scott. I think our next witness will have a lot to say
    about boot camps.
        Mr. Conyers. We want to get down--this is not a meeting to
    find out how to improve boot camps. I mean, do they have a
    worthwhile purpose or not? And to me, that is the jumping-off
    point. And so I join in with the commendations of the Ranking
    Member of the Committee to thank you for your testimony.
        Ms. Nweze. Thank you.
        Mr. Scott. The gentleman from North Carolina.
        Mr. Coble. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will be very brief. I
    want to put a question to the witness.
        Good to have you all with us, by the way.
        If she doesn't know the answer, maybe I will submit the
    question to the Chair. Boot camps are operational in how many
    States? Does anyone know that?
        Mr. Scott. Approximately 20 right now.
        Mr. Coble. Twenty?
        Mr. Scott. I think.
        Mr. Coble. And Ms. Nweze, I will assume logistically the
    way it works, a person is prosecuted and convicted, and then,
    at that point, the court of jurisdiction assigns the offender
    or the defendant to a boot camp? Is that the way it goes
    logistically in Florida?
        Ms. Nweze. I am sorry. I didn't understand your question. I
    heard you. But you need to repeat it so I am sure.
        Mr. Coble. I said logistically a juvenile is prosecuted and
    convicted. And upon his conviction, I presume the court of
    jurisdiction would then assign the defendant or the convicted
    defendant to an appropriate boot camp. Is that the way it
    works?
        Ms. Nweze. Generally, yes.
        Mr. Coble. Okay. I have no further questions.
        Mr. Scott. Thank you, Ms. Nweze, for your testimony and for
    your responses. I regret that we had to--we were so late
    getting started because of votes on the floor. But I appreciate
    your work on this issue, on the State NAACP and on the national
    board. I have seen you at many conventions, and it is good to
    see you today.
        Ms. Nweze. Yes, sir. Thank you, sir.
        Mr. Scott. Thank you.
        Professor MacKenzie.

               TESTIMONY OF DORIS MacKENZIE, PROFESSOR,
                UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND, COLLEGE PARK, MD

        Ms. MacKenzie. I am honored to be here. I thank the
    Committee, Subcommittee for inviting me.
        I began studying correctional boot camps in 1987. And when
    I talk about correctional boot camps, I am including both camps
    for both juveniles and adults. At that time, I was awarded a
    grant from the National Institute of Justice, and I have
    continued to study them since that time. Most recently, the
    University of Maryland was awarded a grant, and I studied the
    correctional boot camp for adults at Maryland. I have then had
    the opportunity to visit a large number of these camps to
    observe activities; to consult with staff, administrators and
    juveniles; review evaluations; collect data. I have visited
    programs for males and females; for juveniles and adults; and
    in Federal, State and local jurisdictions.
        Beginning my research on the boot camps, I began by asking
    people what they expected to be accomplished by the boot camps.
    They had many goals. But the primary goal was always--almost
    always--recidivism. So I began studying the recidivism and most
    recently have done a meta-analysis, examining all the studies
    that we could identify that have examined the outcome of
    recidivism of boot camps. They compared people that went to the
    boot camps, juveniles and adults, to people that had some other
    sentence or spent time in a facility or in the community. This
    was a large number of juveniles and adults that were included
    in these studies. We only used studies that were considered to
    be adequate scientifically. So the research designed was
    strong. If the major goal of boot camps is to reduce
    recidivism, there is little reason to continue these programs.
    They do not reduce recidivism. This has been the continual
    result that I found from my earliest studies to this
    examination of all the studies that I could find in a meta-
    analysis. There is no evidence that they successfully reduced
    recidivism.
        People do have other goals of the programs though. And so I
    have also tried to examine the other goals. One of them was to
    reduce prison crowding. People expected the programs to reduce
    prison crowding, partly because they would reduce recidivism,
    which of course they don't, but also by releasing the offenders
    and delinquents early if they took part in this rigorous boot
    camp program. The trouble is that many of the judges decide to
    send juveniles and adults to the boot camp instead of giving
    them an alternative community treatment. So instead of sending
    them to probation, they end up putting them into a prison,
    incarcerating them in the boot camps or net widening.
        The other area that we studied in the boot camps was to
    look at the environment of the boot camps. We did find some
    positive results from the boot camps. If we look at the
    environments, the juveniles and staff evaluated the program as
    more positive, the boot camp programs. The trouble is, we were
    comparing them to the traditional facilities of the juveniles
    where there are large facilities, not small--not small
    programs, as they had for the boot camps. You also must
    remember, when we study in our lab in the boot camps, we are
    allowed in those that are probably less apt to prove to be
    abusive and have better trained staff.
        I have just recently done a review of what works in
    corrections, looking at a large number of correctional
    programs, including the boot camps. I identified 284 studies
    that have adequate research designs. And that is very important
    because much research in corrections is very poorly done. I can
    conclude that programs that are based on control, punishment,
    strict rules, confrontations similar to boot camps or scared
    straight programs are not effective.
        However, we do have programs that are effective. These are
    the programs that we have referred to as rehabilitation,
    education, drug court, drug treatment, cognitive skills
    programs. We do have programs that reduce recidivism. But boot
    camps are not something that reduces recidivism.
        For years I have said we should consider boot camps because
    we could put therapy within the camps. But looking at the
    recent number of deaths and injuries in these camps, I have
    changed my mind, and I no longer support--I think it is too
    dangerous to continue with the boot camps. We don't have a
    justification.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. MacKenzie follows:]

                     Prepared Statement of Doris MacKenzie

        Mr. Scott. Thank you very much, Professor MacKenzie.
        Representative Gibson.

     TESTIMONY OF AUDREY GIBSON, STATE REPRESENTATIVE OF FLORIDA,
                     DISTRICT 15, JACKSONVILLE, FL

        Ms. Gibson. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and Members of the
    Committee. And certainly I want to thank my congresswoman for
    inviting me today.
        I want to cover a couple of points that I kind of took out
    of my testimony. First and foremost, I want to make sure that
    it is known that I don't believe in coddling criminals. I do
    believe in personal responsibility, but I believe that it has
    to be taught. And I don't think that boot camps in any way,
    shape or form teach that to our young people.
        I also think that the best opportunity we have to reduce
    our increase in our corrections systems throughout the United
    States is by rehabilitating juveniles. I think that we all know
    that the African-American population is over represented in our
    corrections system for adults as well as juveniles. And so
    therein lies, I think, the comments that there is great concern
    for African American children while there is concern for all
    children.
        I don't think that there is enough mental health
    programming within the confines of a boot camp. And largely,
    most of these children that go into boot camps are poor
    children; their health has not been monitored over the years;
    and so they go into a program that primarily focuses on
    rigorous physical activity.
        The other issue has to do with it being run by sheriffs'
    offices, or as was stated earlier, it is a State-run type of
    program, which doesn't in my mind mean that we shouldn't have
    national outcry, but we certainly should have standards or
    should have had, because I certainly don't believe or support
    the continuation of boot camps. But there has to be--or there
    should have been, I am sorry, a standard of training within the
    facilities so that we did not have the deaths that we have had.
    And that not only includes the medical component, which has
    been insufficient, but also the personnel who are used to
    handling adults and not children. And certainly that is what
    those young people are; they are developing children.
        I think it is far better or we are far better served if we
    do have programs like multisystemic therapy, which we utilize
    in Florida. And I think they also utilize it in Mississippi, if
    I am not mistaken. Functional family therapy, because taking a
    juvenile into a setting that doesn't include making sure that
    the family is treated, if you will, it doesn't complete the
    cycle. And so in order to recognize reduced recidivism rates,
    then we need to certainly include the family and, as was
    mentioned earlier, make sure that there is an educational
    component; there is an employment training component. Because
    we are trying to prepare the person--this young person who has
    gotten into trouble--not to go into the correctional system. We
    are trying to prepare that person to come back and be
    productive in the community. And boot camps certainly do not do
    that. In terms of the dollars being spent being State dollars,
    if you will, I wrote a note that certainly there are Federal
    dollars that fund juvenile justice programs. And those dollars
    that are State dollars may be used as a match to draw down
    those dollars from the Fed. And in looking at whether or not
    someone wants to continue boot camps or not, recognize the
    national importance of this issue, certainly we shouldn't be
    using State dollars as match dollars to draw down Federal
    dollars if any of the State dollars are going to be used for
    boot camps as we continue on. Let's see.
        As I said before, as my time runs out, I think we are far
    better served, and we have far more statistics that show
    prevention programs work, therapy programs work, wilderness
    programs even, like Outward Bound, where a young person can
    find out where their strengths and talents lie and then draw on
    those to take them through life. We have a high murder rate
    going on right now in Jacksonville. And I think it certainly
    involves a lot of our young people. I think adults as well as
    children could certainly benefit from the inclusion of conflict
    resolution in any program. And with that, I thank you very
    much.
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Gibson follows:]

                      Prepared Statement of Audrey Gibson

        Mr. Scott. Thank you, Representative Gibson.
        Now we will have rounds of questions from Members. We will
    limit ourselves to the 5 minutes. And I will recognize myself
    first.
        Professor MacKenzie, just on the question of recidivism,
    you indicated on several occasions that there is no reduction
    in recidivism at boot camps compared to other facilities. You
    also have suggested that boot camps, like their sister programs
    at military schools, are not conducive to assisting teens to
    make and keep long-term change. Is that accurate? And if so,
    could you expand on that?
        Ms. MacKenzie. That is accurate for the boot camps, the
    adjudicated delinquents and offenders, there is no evidence--
    the overall evidence is that they do not reduce recidivism.
    They don't change the delinquents so that they don't continue
    in criminal activity.
        Mr. Scott. In terms of safety, did you study the safety of
    the boot camps?
        Ms. MacKenzie. We studied the perceived safety of the boot
    camps from the perspective of juveniles in the camps and staff.
    And we compared that to traditional facilities and safety. The
    juveniles in the boot camps felt they were safer in most areas.
    I think that reflects the fact that the strict rules keep them
    from being hurt by other juveniles in the facility. They were,
    however, more afraid of staff. So there was some fear of staff.
        Mr. Scott. Well, Ms. Gibson, many children have died in
    boot camps. Is there a difference in the death rate at boot
    camps as opposed to other facilities?
        Ms. MacKenzie. That is really where we need some research.
    We do not have that research. The other thing is, we don't
    really have a very good handle on how many boot camps are still
    there because there are State boot camps, but there are also
    many that are run by local jurisdictions. So we need to know
    where they are and then compare the injury and death rates in
    the camps to the other facilities where these young people
    would be.
        Mr. Scott. You mentioned local, local government-run. What
    about privately run?
        Ms. MacKenzie. And there are also privately run, usually
    contracted with government.
        Mr. Scott. And we don't know whether or not there is a
    difference in private or local-run facilities in terms of
    safety?
        Ms. MacKenzie. As far as their reported safety, we did not
    find any differences between the juvenile programs that were
    run by public or private, not for profit.
        Mr. Scott. And if there is no difference in recidivism, are
    the boot camps cheaper than the alternatives?
        Ms. MacKenzie. The boot camps are only cheaper if the
    people are released after serving a shorter period of time. And
    the concern here is net widening. Many of the judges make the
    decision to send someone into the boot camp instead of an
    alternative, like probation. That makes it much more expensive.
    So some State systems for adults have used it to reduce their
    prison population. New York State in particular because of the
    Rockefeller drug laws has used their boot camp for adults to
    release people earlier. They reported some savings. But they
    have an enormous number of people that they put through the
    boot camp in a year, 5,000. In comparison, the small programs
    run for juveniles are probably not saving any money.
        Mr. Scott. Thank you.
        Representative Gibson, you serve on the Juvenile Justice
    Committee. Is that a subcommittee in the Statehouse?
        Ms. Gibson. Yes.
        Mr. Scott. You have gotten rid of all of the State-run boot
    camps. What happens to children now that would have been
    sentenced to a boot camp?
        Ms. Gibson. They are either house arrested--because boot
    camps in Florida were for nonviolent offenders. And so they are
    either house arrested or probation, community probation or
    detention centers.
        Mr. Scott. Has anyone ascertained whether or not there has
    been more or less crime as a result of the closing of the
    State-run boot camps?
        Ms. Gibson. Not that I am aware of.
        Mr. Scott. What can be done to make these boot camp--if we
    are not having boot camps, what can be made to deal with the
    safety of the children? Professor MacKenzie, we are still
    having some boot camps. Is there anything that can be done to
    enhance the safety?
        Ms. MacKenzie. Have strict requirements about the need for
    training the staff would be one of the first things. I think
    that, from my experience, many of the staff were not well
    trained to identify stress and physical and mental stress that
    the juveniles face in these boot camps. And I am very worried
    about how long the staff has training. I mean, it is very short
    periods of time. They are often given--they participate in some
    kind of training activity. And that just won't give them what
    they need.
        Mr. Scott. Thank you. My time has expired.
        Judge Gohmert.
        Mr. Gohmert. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        And let me just mention, our Chair of the Committee has
    stepped out. But he was going to address, he had indicated he
    wanted to hear evidence on both sides. And I can tell you, Mr.
    Chairman, we had tried to get some of the witnesses from
    programs that I am aware of in Texas that have had a good deal
    of success. And since we were not able to offer their airfare
    or travel expenses to get here, they didn't have the
    wherewithal to do so. They operate on tight budgets and just
    could not make the transition; plus they have small staffs, and
    it is difficult when you take somebody out for 2 days and it is
    not completely job related to what they are doing. But there is
    evidence out there, and I hope we will have a chance to get
    some of that additional evidence before the Committee.
        Dr. MacKenzie, you made the statement that--and in your
    written statement, it is in all capitalized letters, boot
    camps, ``do not reduce recidivism,'' and you went a step
    further here. And in your written statement, you said, ``I
    believe the research is clear on this.'' you went a step
    further than that, and always understand as I do that
    testifying falsely here is a crime. And I guess the old judge
    comes out when somebody makes a statement that is so bold. You
    went beyond that. You said, ``There is no evidence they reduce
    recidivism.'' so since I am familiar with some places where
    they have reduced recidivism, let me just ask you, are you not
    aware of one single boot camp anywhere in the Nation that has
    actually reduced recidivism?
        Ms. MacKenzie. I am aware of some boot camp studies that
    have shown a reduction in recidivism.
        Mr. Gohmert. I am talking about one boot camp anywhere in
    the country that itself reduced recidivism amongst those who
    have come through that boot camp.
        Ms. MacKenzie. The studies study a particular boot camp.
    So, yes, I would know--I do know of--offhand, I can't tell you
    exactly which States. But I can tell you, yes, there were some.
    And in the testimony, I reported that some did have lower
    recidivism from----
        Mr. Gohmert. And it seems, and you pointed this out in the
    study, it seems like--in those that have had some success,
    usually they incorporate more than just a physical regimen.
    They use the education and training, and the life skills has
    not always been terribly helpful, but there is a dimension of
    that that can be. And I wanted to be sure if you were aware of
    those or not. But you also said you were allowed in boot camps
    that were less apt to be abusive. Did you make attempts to be
    in boot camps you knew were more abusive?
        Ms. MacKenzie. We attempted to go into every juvenile boot
    camp that was in existence when we started the study of the
    environments of juvenile boot camps.
        Mr. Gohmert. Is that just in Florida or all across the
    country?
        Ms. MacKenzie. Across the country.
        Mr. Gohmert. That is a lot of boot camps. You made an
    inquiry----
        Ms. MacKenzie. I gave the numbers in here. It was about 48
    or 49 boot camps at that point that we could identify.
        Mr. Gohmert. Okay. Well, then, I notice the most recent
    study that you cited I think was 2001. Have you reviewed any
    study since then that are being cited?
        Ms. MacKenzie. Reviewed studies for the recidivism or----
        Mr. Gohmert. Well, the studies that were cited had the most
    recent ones. There were a couple of them I think that were
    2001. Those were the studies that were cited as footnotes to
    your statement. Did you have any other opinion to your
    statement of other studies?
        Ms. MacKenzie. The studies in the meta-analysis that we
    conducted, we conducted the meta-analysis 2 years ago. That is
    referenced on----
        Mr. Gohmert. Okay. My time is--okay. Thank you.
        But I do want to ask Representative Gibson--and thank you
    for coming. I know it is a hardship for anybody that comes up
    here and especially when you sit around like this for us. But I
    was concerned that it appears that Florida legislature has
    taken the step--and you have made indications of things that
    concerned you that, you know, the abuses obviously should
    require some action. But I just want to ask you, is the Florida
    legislature incapable of addressing boot camp problems unless
    the Federal Government tells you what and how to do?
        Ms. Gibson. Thank you for your question. I believe that
    what Florida did was change from a boot camp model to something
    called star academies. However, we had no takers with the
    change in the structure even though the dollar amount was
    there. And of course, it is a shared program between usually a
    sheriff's department and the State. And the reason we had no
    takers is because of the training. There is a different kind of
    training required to be a sheriff as it is to be over
    juveniles. There are different takedown methods taught and
    other kinds of training that individuals need to have when they
    work with juveniles. So we had no takers for the program.
        Mr. Gohmert. Okay. Thank you. But you feel like Florida
    could handle and legislate requirements for its own boot camps
    is really--or did you need the Federal Government to tell you
    how to do that?
        Ms. Gibson. Let me go back to what I believe I said in my
    initial comments, and if I didn't, I certainly meant to; that I
    believe that the issue of juvenile justice is a national issue.
    Children are children from State to State. And there needs to
    be standards put in place nationally so we don't have these
    kinds of issues. And I believe the Federal is national, and I
    believe there needs to be involvement. And we wouldn't be where
    we are today, I don't think, if we had national standards to
    deal with our juvenile criminals.
        Mr. Gohmert. And if we don't pass national standards,
    Florida, you are saying, would not be able to adequately take
    care of the boot camp issue within its own State?
        Ms. Gibson. Florida won't have any boot camps, first of
    all.
        Mr. Gohmert. Okay. Thank you.
        Mr. Scott. Thank you. The gentleman's time has expired. I
    believe the gentle lady from Texas came in next.
        The gentle lady from Texas is recognized.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. I thank the distinguished Chairman. You
    know, this is the kind of hearing I am just grateful that, as
    we have moved to the new 110th Congress and we are working with
    our colleagues, friends on the other side of the aisle, that we
    have been able to initiate questions like this. And I want to
    put firmly on the record my appreciation to Chairman Scott for
    giving us a very broad road map. I chair the Congressional
    Children's Caucus, and it is holistic in its approach entering
    programs, health issues, such as obesity, gun violence over the
    years that has been in place and children's exploitation. And
    so we look at things in a broad manner, and certainly we
    recognize that children have to be disciplined; they have to be
    rehabilitated. And when the boot camp first started maybe a
    decade ago, people were excited. CNN was covering it. It looked
    like it would be bite-your-tongue fun, a good way to discipline
    children. We didn't know that it was going to become a death
    trap. Or those who had the good intentions didn't know that, in
    places around the country, it would result in being a death
    trap for children.
        Now, I have just come off of the floor discussing the
    propensity and epidemic of youth violence. One on one, one of
    the most conspicuous examples, of course, was the four
    youngsters who broke into the home of Sean Taylor which
    resulted in his death. And I say that to recognize that we have
    a dual problem of violence perpetrated by youngsters, and then,
    of course, how do you save their lives? How do you intervene?
    And how do you work with respect to intervention?
        But I would like to ask Representative Gibson--and I thank
    you for your leadership, coming from Florida. I am not sure if
    you are from the area--forgive me for missing your testimony. I
    was on the floor. I only know the story of the youngster who
    was flat on his back and big hurly, burly people stepping on
    him. Is this Mr. Anderson? Is that the young man?
        Ms. Gibson. Yes.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Help me understand why we should be
    questioning boot camps across the country and why it poses a
    severe problem, more so than it solves problems of youth crime,
    which I assume this young man was in because of some incident,
    criminal incident. And I assume maybe you are from this area.
    As I said, forgive me. I came in, and I am looking at some
    notes. But help us understand--I understand Florida has
    eliminated the boot camps?
        Ms. Gibson. Yes.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. By State action. Is it all gone? Or they
    are in the process of being eliminated?
        Ms. Gibson. No, following this Martin Lee Anderson
    incident, actually the boot camps were closed, and the children
    were moved.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. What year was that?
        Ms. Gibson. 2004 I think.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Four. That is okay. Why don't I just let
    you answer the question and then, doctor, would you follow up--
    Professor, would you follow up and tell us, if we wanted to
    overhaul this concept of boot camps and we wanted to find a fix
    and we are looking at a number of legislative initiatives, more
    intervention, what--eliminate it totally? Or is there another
    model that could be used?
        Representative Gibson, just tell us about the situation in
    Florida.
        Ms. Gibson. Well--and thank you. I think the video speaks
    for itself and speaks very loudly to the fact that folks
    obviously didn't know how to handle this young man. And there
    was a lack of training. There was a lack of consideration for
    his physical ability for him to do whatever it was that they
    wanted him to do.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. His size compared to their size.
        Ms. Gibson. Absolutely.
        And the fact that they had stuffed ammonia tablets up his
    nose is very egregious to me and I don't see how anyone looking
    at that and knowing what happened, that they could even think
    that the boot camp model works.
        The other part of that, I think I put in my testimony, is
    that as far as I know, boot camps are military in nature,
    designed to prepare people to go to war. We are not preparing
    our children to go to war. We are preparing them to come out
    and be productive citizens. And I don't think that the boot
    camps do that. Nor are they inclusive, as I said before--I
    think you were right--of deep therapy, mental health issues
    about--with our young folks today, we are finding that not only
    in Florida, but I believe across the United States that there
    are a myriad of mental health issues that certainly aren't
    addressed in a short-term boot camp. And the recidivism rate
    that I think we are after with our taxpayer dollars is not
    recognized. And the aftercare programs that some of the boot
    camps have had, the programs are very fragmented, and so there
    is no help actually for the child or the family.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Quickly, Professor, do you have an
    alternative model, quickly?
        Ms. MacKenzie. The alternative would be to really use the
    programs that we know are effective, the treatment programs
    that include education, focus on drug use and drug education
    and drug problems like drug courts. Multisystemic therapy is
    another one that looks very promising. We have programs that--
    cognitive skills would be another one. We have programs that
    are effective. We might want to try, given that the
    environments of boot camps--the staff and juveniles did say
    positive things about them--we might want to try small
    structured programs without the military basic training model.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. And the roughness that ensues?
        Ms. MacKenzie. The roughness.
        Ms. Jackson Lee. Let me thank you and I yield back. I thank
    the Chairman very much.
        Mr. Scott. Thank you. The gentleman from Georgia, Mr.
    Johnson.
        Mr. Johnson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Why is it that roughness would not work in terms of
    discipline, in terms of physical requirements? In other words,
    do the pushups, do the sit-ups, do the chin-ups, do the laps as
    part of the disciplinary process, as part of the teaching of
    respect of authority that sometimes many young men and women
    are missing and which can contribute to them being thrust into
    the juvenile justice system for a rebellious young person who
    has had no disciplinary guidance, who may not have achieved on
    a physical level, may never have done a pushup or a sit-up and
    who basically lacks respect for authority, couldn't boot camp,
    if properly administered and if supplemented with various
    psychological training methods and that kind of thing, couldn't
    it be something that could be positive, or is it--and I meant
    this question for both of you--or is it just the whole boot
    camp model needs to be just done away with because it has no
    merit whatsoever? Is that what I hear you all saying?
        And I am sorry that I was not here at the beginning of your
    testimony. So I didn't hear. And I am kind of asking this
    question out of some skepticism of tidbits of what I have heard
    just sitting here so far, and also probably a lack of knowledge
    about how to positively impact juveniles who have gone astray.
        So I will listen to your responses. Spare the rod, spoil
    the child. You know, those kinds of things that we have heard.
    You know, talk to me.
        Ms. Gibson. Let me start by saying this. I am the mother of
    two sons that I raised by myself. Both of them have graduated
    from college and I didn't spare the rod nor the mouth. In terms
    of physical activity as a way of disciplining young people, I
    don't think that it should be used that way.
        Mr. Johnson. It may not be just to discipline them, it may
    be to give them some discipline and also give them a means of
    achieving something and becoming more physical, helping with
    the psychosomatic issues. In other words I can achieve
    physically, I am strong, you know, I can commit myself to more
    positive pursuits as opposed to what got me in trouble in the
    first place; I can become Michael Jordan or somebody because I
    can achieve physically.
        Ms. Gibson. I made references earlier before you came to
    successes of wilderness-type programs and Outward Bound
    programs, and there is another program in Florida called About
    Face that is run by our National Guard. And these programs do
    have a physical component, rope climbing and things of that
    nature.
        But they also focus on team building and trust, in addition
    to the physical component, which is not present in a boot camp.
    If you get up at 0-dark-30, I call it, and are immediately
    subjected to running the track in the heat or just pushups,
    that to me does not instill discipline and doesn't allow a
    child to totally tap into some talents they may find in the
    rope climbing or in the canoeing or being out in the wilderness
    communing with nature, if you will.
        Mr. Johnson. Nothing positive about it at all? Getting up
    early in the morning, being required to do some laps?
        Ms. MacKenzie. As I said before, there does appear to be
    some positive attitudes in the boot camp toward the staff and
    the staff toward the juveniles. So there is something positive.
    My worry is with these injuries and deaths in the camp that the
    military--putting that basic training model in isn't effective.
    My research would say that it doesn't have an influence on
    later criminal activities. It is not criminogenic learning to
    change physically, it isn't really going to change you to keep
    you away from a life of crime. You may need consequences for
    your actions and that may be beneficial. But we could do many
    of these things in a different model of a juvenile facility,
    not using the basic training military model.
        Mr. Scott. Thank you very much.
        Let me just follow up with one quick question. The Ranking
    Member, Judge Gohmert, mentioned some of the aspects of
    programs that seemed to work; that is, when you have a boot
    camp with just the physical activities, it doesn't seem to
    work, but when you add in education, some of the psychological
    services, mental health perhaps, when you have that,
    particularly the education, that it makes a positive
    difference. That is also what I have been led to believe. Is
    that what research shows?
        Ms. MacKenzie. The research in that area is very limited.
    We don't have enough information and the programs don't appear
    to be very extensive in the boot camps. So the research--I
    would not make a strong statement about whether the boot camps
    that now exist that have treatment and therapy within the camps
    have an impact on recidivism. It is questionable at this point,
    the results of the research.
        Mr. Scott. Thank you. Judge Gohmert, do you have any other
    questions?
        Mr. Gohmert. Since we weren't able to get witnesses, people
    that I talked to, if I could just mention a couple of things.
    For one thing, you know, like my friend Mr. Johnson mentioned,
    there are some youth who have a problem being that they have
    never had any self-discipline, they have never been taught any
    discipline. And in talking to parents and teachers of those who
    have had boot camps--and when I say boot camp, apparently there
    is a little miscommunication, because I consider a boot camp
    not just to have the physical component, but to have these
    other components where education is a part, and the day boot
    camps with which I am familiar had the officers of the boot
    camp available any time of the day on call. They would show up
    and take the child out of the classroom who was being
    disruptive and talk to them. And teachers tell me they could
    not believe the difference in a child who began to learn and
    start to reach their God-given potential.
        I have had parents--there was one mother who said she never
    could get her child to go to bed, and one night she got fed up
    and she called the sergeant major that ran the boot camps and
    said, ``My son won't go to bed.'' He said, ``Put him on the
    line.'' She put him on the line and he said, ``Son, go to
    bed.'' And the kid went to bed.
        And she said, ``How did you do that?'' he said, ``Well, I
    don't know. We need to work on this a little bit.''
        But we found that many times the parents needed some
    training as an additional component because we are talking
    about youth. And Representative Gibson, I think you alluded to
    another issue. When you are dealing with youth, training
    becomes all the more critical because--Dr. Mackenzie, you are
    dealing with--these are not hardened adults. These are still
    moldable children. But Representative Gibson, you mentioned the
    STAR program and I don't know if it is the same thing, but that
    is what we were--the boot camps that I looked at in Texas back
    when I was on the juvenile board, they called themselves STAR
    programs and they had the additional components. But it just
    seemed like, Mr. Johnson--sometimes the discipline is needed in
    order to get their attention. And one problem we ran into--or I
    have heard from others--they would have kids get so motivated,
    turn their studies around, and then after graduating high
    school, want to join the military. And they would say, ``Well,
    you have had these problems in your background, so we really
    don't want you.'' and I hate to see that happen when somebody
    has turned their lives around.
        But anyway, I just wanted to mention that for the record. I
    have heard some great stories of people turned around. But
    certainly the detriment of losing a precious child requires
    extra training, requires extra accountability and monitoring.
    And I appreciate the opportunity to mention these other
    aspects.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Mr. Scott. Thank you. And I would like to thank our
    witnesses for their testimony today. Members may have
    additional questions to ask. They will be submitted to you in
    writing and we would ask you to forward your answers as
    promptly as possible so they can be made part of the record.
        And, without objection, the hearing record will remain open
    for 1 week for the submission of additional materials, and I
    assume the gentleman from Texas may have additional statements.
        At this time, I would like to introduce for the record a
    statement from the Thayer Learning Center and one from
    Representative Hastings and Representative Corrine Brown.
        [The prepared statement of the Thayer Learning Center
    follows:]
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Hastings of Florida
    follows:]
        [The prepared statement of Ms. Corrine Brown of Florida
    follows:]
        Mr. Scott. Is there any other business to come before the
    Subcommittee? Without objection, the Subcommittee stands
    adjourned.
        [Whereupon, at 3:45 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]

                                A P P E N D I X

                                  ----------

                   Material Submitted for the Hearing Record

           Prepared Statement of the Honorable Sheila Jackson Lee, a
        Representative in Congress from the State of Texas, and Member,
            Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security

    Prepared Statement of the Honorable Alcee L. Hastings, a Representative
                     in Congress from the State of Florida

    Prepared Statement of the Honorable Corrine Brown, a Representative in
                       Congress from the State of Florida