[Senate Hearing 108-48]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 108-48
NOMINATIONS OF HON. CLARK KENT ERVIN, JANET HALE, AND LINDA M. SPRINGER
========================================================================
HEARING
before the
COMMITTEE ON
GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
ON THE
NOMINATIONS OF HON. CLARK KENT ERVIN TO BE INSPECTOR GENERAL FOR THE
DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY, JANET HALE TO BE UNDER SECRETARY FOR
MANAGEMENT FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY, AND LINDA M.
SPRINGER TO BE CONTROLLER OF THE OFFICE OF FEDERAL FINANCIAL MANAGEMENT
FOR THE OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET
__________
FEBRUARY 27, 2003
__________
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COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS
SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine, Chairman
TED STEVENS, Alaska JOSEPH I. LIEBERMAN, Connecticut
GEORGE V. VOINOVICH, Ohio CARL LEVIN, Michigan
NORM COLEMAN, Minnesota DANIEL K. AKAKA, Hawaii
ARLEN SPECTER, Pennsylvania RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois
ROBERT F. BENNETT, Utah THOMAS R. CARPER, Deleware
PETER G. FITZGERALD, Illinois MARK DAYTON, Minnesota
JOHN E. SUNUNU, New Hampshire FRANK LAUTENBERG, New Jersey
RICHARD C. SHELBY, Alabama MARK PRYOR, Arkansas
Michael D. Bopp, Staff Director and Counsel
Johanna L. Hardy, Senior Counsel
Joyce A. Rechtschaffen, Minority Staff Director and Counsel
Lawrence B. Novey, Minority Counsel
Susan E. Propper, Minority Counsel
Jennifer E. Hamilton, Minority Research Assistant
Darla D. Cassell, Chief Clerk
C O N T E N T S
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Opening statements:
Page
Senator Collins.............................................. 1
Senator Carper............................................... 2
Senator Lautenberg........................................... 15
Senator Akaka................................................ 17
Senator Pryor................................................ 20
Prepared statement:
Senator Voinovich............................................ 29
WITNESSES
Thursday, February 27, 2003
Hon. Kay Bailey Hutchison, a U.S. Senator from the State of Texas 3
Hon. John Cornyn, a U.S. Senator from the State of Texas......... 3
Hon. Elizabeth Dole, a U.S. Senator from the State of North
Carolina....................................................... 5
Hon. Clark Kent Ervin to be Inspector General for the Department
of Homeland Security........................................... 6
Janet Hale to be Under Secretary for Management for the
Department of Homeland Security................................ 8
Linda M. Springer to be Controller of the Office of Federal
Financial Management for the Office of Management and Budget... 21
Alphabetical List of Witnesses
Cornyn, Hon. John:
Testimony.................................................... 3
Dole, Hon. Elizabeth:
Testimony.................................................... 5
Ervin, Hon. Clark Kent:
Testimony.................................................... 6
Prepared statement........................................... 30
Biographical and professional information.................... 32
Responses to pre-hearing questions........................... 38
Responses to post-hearing questions.......................... 124
Hale, Janet:
Testimony.................................................... 8
Prepared statement........................................... 55
Biographical and professional information.................... 57
Responses to pre-hearing questions........................... 63
Responses to post-hearing questions.......................... 134
Hutchison, Hon. Kay Bailey:
Testimony.................................................... 5
Springer, Linda M.:
Testimony.................................................... 21
Prepared statement........................................... 105
Biographical and professional information.................... 107
Responses to pre-hearing questions........................... 114
Responses to post-hearing questions.......................... 136
NOMINATIONS OF HON. CLARK KENT ERVIN, JANET HALE, AND LINDA M. SPRINGER
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THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 27, 2003
U.S. Senate,
Committee on Governmental Affairs,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 11:03 a.m., in
room SD-342, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Susan M.
Collins, Chairman of the Committee, presiding.
Present: Senators Collins, Coleman, Akaka, Carper,
Lautenberg, and Pryor.
OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN COLLINS
Chairman Collins. The Committee will be in order.
Today the Committee of Governmental Affairs is holding a
hearing to consider three nominations, Clark Kent Ervin to be
the Inspector General of the Department of Homeland Security;
Janet Hale to be the Under Secretary for Management at the
Department for Homeland Security; and Linda Springer to be the
Controller of the Office of Federal Financial Management at the
Office of Management and Budget.
In January the Committee approved the nominations of
Governor Ridge to be the Secretary of the new Department and
Gordon England to be its first Deputy Secretary. I am pleased
today that the Committee is considering the next set of
Homeland Security nominees, Mr. Ervin and Ms. Hale, both of
whom appear to have strong credentials and relevant experience
to the positions for which they have been nominated.
The Department of Homeland Security officially opened its
doors on January 24. The establishment of the Department is the
most significant government restructuring in more than 50
years. It involves the merger of some 22 agencies and 170,000
employees.
The creation of the Department is an enormous undertaking
that will require a team effort to ensure its success. As part
of that team, the Under Secretary for Management, who will be
responsible for the organizational issues in the new
Department, will have a particularly challenging job.
With this massive merger, the Under Secretary for
Management will have to work to integrate disparate management,
human resources, and information technology systems. Ms. Hale's
extensive background in management in both the public and the
private sectors appears to be ideal for undertaking the
integration and management of these issues.
Another critical member of the Homeland Security team is
the Inspector General. For more than 20 years the Inspectors
General have been the watchdogs for Congress and the taxpayers
in the ongoing battle against waste, fraud, and abuse. The DHS
IG will face extraordinary challenges. Audit and investigative
components from the various agencies must be integrated into a
single entity within the Department.
The IG is also responsible for performing annual audits of
the Coast Guard to ensure that its new Homeland Security
responsibilities do not divert attention from its traditional
roles, including vital search and rescue missions, which are of
particular importance to my State.
Both the Under Secretary for Management and the Inspector
General will be crucial to the successful organization and
proper functioning of this vital new Department.
I am also pleased that today we will consider the
nomination of Linda Springer to be the Controller of the Office
of Federal Financial Management at OMB. The Controller acts as
the deputy and principal advisor to the Deputy Director for
Management in carrying out the financial management duties as
outlined in the Chief Financial Officers Act of 1990.
This position is critical to ensuring that the financial
management systems in the Executive Branch are efficient,
accurate, and reliable. Ms. Springer's background again appears
to be tailor-made for this position.
Before turning to my colleagues, I want to recognize
Senator Carper for any opening comments that he may have, and
to welcome him today.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR CARPER
Senator Carper. Thank you, Madam Chairman.
And to our witnesses and to our colleagues, it is great to
see each of you and I am looking forward to the hearing.
I am going to ask a rhetorical question. I know this is not
a time to ask questions. But I see Senator Dole here and I have
always wondered this.
For years I have told this story about when you had been
nominated to be a cabinet secretary by former President Bush,
and you were presented to the Senate by your husband, Senator
Dole. And I am told that he said to his colleagues, he quipped,
I regret that I have but one wife to give to my country. Is
that true?
Senator Dole. To my country's infrastructure. I think he
also mentioned something about my biscuit recipe being
something that might be used for potholes, too. We had a lot of
fun with that.
Senator Carper. Good. He has to be a hard act to follow. I
am delighted to be here and look forward to the testimony and
to having a chance to vote for our nominees. Thank you for your
willingness to serve.
Chairman Collins. I very much appreciate the Senator from
Delaware clearing up that essential question that we have all
wondered about throughout the year.
Senator Carper. I have others, too.
Chairman Collins. It is now my pleasure to recognize my
distinguished colleagues for purposes of an introduction. We
are very pleased to have the senior Senator from Texas, Senator
Kay Bailey Hutchison here today, as well as our new colleague,
Senator John Cornyn. I would ask Senator Hutchison if she would
proceed.
STATEMENT OF HON. KAY BAILEY HUTCHISON, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE
STATE OF TEXAS
Senator Hutchison. Thank you, Madam Chairman.
Bear with me a little bit because I had some dental work
this morning and I am not speaking as clearly as I hope I
usually do.
I am very pleased to be here for Clark Kent Ervin, someone
I have known for years and years. And he comes to this post, I
think, with all of the right qualifications. First, of course,
is academic qualifications, having gotten his bachelor of arts
degree and his law degree from Harvard with honors, and he was
a Rhodes Scholar.
But then he went on into the legal field, distinguishing
himself in that field and in several areas of our State
service, including working with my colleague when he was
Attorney General, and I know he will elaborate on that.
But I think, even more to the point now, I cannot imagine a
more important job than the Inspector General of the Department
of Homeland Security because with the new emphasis that we are
putting on terrorism, counterterrorism, and intelligence
gathering in this agency, I think the role of Inspector General
is going to be so very important.
And he has the experience for the job. He has been
Inspector General at the Department of State, and he has been
Acting Inspector General since the Department of Homeland
Security came into being. So I cannot think of a better person
for this job and someone that I know personally will go the
extra mile to do everything just right in this agency.
And I am pleased to recommend him to you.
Chairman Collins. Thank you very much, Senator Hutchison. I
want to express admiration for your stamina and ability to
withstand pain and still keep all of your Senate commitments,
as well. It is typical of your extraordinary dedication to your
job and the nominee is indeed fortunate to have your
endorsement.
Senator Cornyn.
STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN CORNYN, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF
TEXAS
Senator Cornyn. Madam Chairman, thank you for letting me
appear here today with my senior Senator and my good friend,
Clark Ervin, on this day when he comes before you seeking
Senate confirmation as Inspector General of the Department of
Homeland Security.
When I was Attorney General for the 4 years preceding my
service in the U.S. Senate, I recruited what I consider to be
the best and brightest that our State had to offer when it came
to my executive staff at the AG's office. In that pursuit I
think I accomplished it, at least in part, when I convinced
Clark to come to work with me as Deputy Attorney General, as
General Counsel, and Director of Administration in my office
before he was whisked away to Washington, DC to work at the
State Department.
While serving as my Deputy Attorney General, Clark
tirelessly sought to ensure that taxpayer money was spent
efficiently, effectively, and wisely. People that come into
contact with Clark quickly realize, though, that he is more
than just an excellent manager. Clark spent considerable time
and effort helping make Texas a better place to work and live
for some of the most vulnerable in our State.
In one instance, Clark recognized that many very helpful
government programs for children were not being utilized,
particularly for children at risk. Parents, teachers, and other
adults coming into regular contact with children were simply
unaware of programs that existed to provide such necessary
items as warm coats, dental services, and the like.
Clark was also the one who introduced me to then-General
Colin Powell's work on America's Promise, a wonderful
organization that continues even today. And recognizing Clark's
talents, he was whisked away by now Secretary of State Powell,
who asked him to come to the Department of State as his
Inspector General.
Clark will be embarrassed to know that I will recount one
story I remember of his meeting with then-designee for
Secretary of State Colin Powell. When after meeting Clark and
being very impressed with him personally and professionally
General Powell asked him if he was married and pointed out or
just dropped the idea that he happened to have two daughters
that were not. It may have just been coincidence in that
conversation, but Clark has since married someone else, for
which we are very happy and congratulate him, and I know he is
happy as well.
As Inspector General at the State Department, Clark
supervised inspections for diplomatic posts around the world to
determine whether policy goals were being achieved and ensure
the protection of our personnel, facilities, and intelligence
information.
Based on his dedication to public service, his love of this
great country, and past success, the President has now
nominated Clark for this very challenging position. Everybody
who knows Clark recognizes his can-do attitude and I know that
will serve him well as he works with Secretary Ridge to shape
disparate organizations into a smooth functioning whole
safeguarding the American people.
I want to thank you, Madam Chairman, for giving me these
few minutes to offer my enthusiastic and unequivocal support to
this wonderful nominee, my friend Clark Ervin, to serve as
Inspector General of the Department of Homeland Security.
Chairman Collins. Thank you very much. I want to thank you
for your personal endorsement and your firsthand knowledge of
the nominee is very helpful.
I know that both of the Senators from Texas have very tight
schedules and we would excuse you at this point, if necessary.
Senator Carper. Madam Chairman.
Chairman Collins. The Senator from Delaware.
Senator Carper. Before the Senators leave, something that
happened last night has just sort of come into focus for me.
Last night I got a phone call at home from Secretary Powell and
he does not often call me at home. I thought he was calling to
talk about the situation in the Middle East or Korea or
whatever.
And he asked if I was on this Committee and I said that I
was. And he said if a fellow named Clark Kent Ervin comes
before the Committee, ask him if he is happily married.
[Laughter.]
Chairman Collins. You need to get more sleep, Senator.
[Laughter.]
Senator Carper. I told him I would ask.
Chairman Collins. Thank you. That can be your first
question for the day, but we will not deduct it from your time.
Again, I want to thank both Senators from Texas for taking
the time to be with us this morning to share their thoughts.
It is now my great pleasure to call upon the Senator from
North Carolina, Senator Dole, to introduce Ms. Hale.
STATEMENT OF HON. ELIZABETH DOLE, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE
OF NORTH CAROLINA
Senator Dole. Thank you. Madam Chairman, Members of the
Committee, it is my great pleasure to introduce Janet Hale of
Virginia as the President's nominee for Under Secretary for
Management for the Department of Homeland Security.
Despite the fact that she is not from the great State of
North Carolina, a forgivable flaw, I am delighted to recommend
Janet to you for this very important position. I have known her
for many years and in many different capacities and I know that
she is extremely well qualified and well prepared for this
position.
And Senator Lautenberg, you might remember our work
together on aviation security, as well as age 21, the drinking
law. Janet was at my side when we were working on those issues
and it was a pleasure to work with you that time.
Janet's resume includes numerous positions of significant
responsibility in both the public and the private sectors. More
importantly, her reputation and the results of her work are
distinguished by the respect of her peers. Her accomplishments
are numerous on behalf of the public and the institutions that
she has so devotedly served for over 2 decades.
As you well know, the duties of the Under Secretary for
Management are critically important to the success of this new
Department. The scope of responsibility is broad indeed,
including budget development and execution, human resource
management, information technology architecture and
integration, procurement, and systems management and
administrative services. Janet Hale's career has given her a
depth of experience in each of these areas.
I first worked with Janet when I served as Secretary of
Transportation and she was a key member of my senior management
team, serving as Assistant Secretary for Budget and Programs
and managing the annual $26 billion budget.
I was so proud and pleased for Janet when she moved on to
the Office of Management and Budget to serve as the Associate
Director for Economics and Government. There she was
responsible for the Departments of Transportation, Treasury,
Commerce, Justice and 25 smaller agencies, managing a $70
billion annual Federal budget.
Over the years her management experience and portfolio have
grown significantly and in her most recent position as
Assistant Secretary of Budget, Technology and Finance at the
Department of Homeland Security, her job description called for
development and execution of a $475 billion budget.
Janet also comes with private sector management experience,
having served as Executive Vice President of the University of
Pennsylvania. As the Chief Administrative Officer of the
University, Janet was responsible for management of human
resources, finances, facilities, and safety. While there she
reengineered all core business functions, resulting in
significant cost reduction and improvements in efficiency.
It is important to highlight Janet's recent experience with
systems integration, both at the Department of Health and Human
Services and the House of Representatives, where she designed
new financial accountability systems and unified the IT
systems. This experience will serve her well as the Department
of Homeland Security integrates the operations of 22 agencies.
By temperament, talent, and experience Janet Hale is a
proven and effective leader in institutional change management.
As you can see, most of her career has been dedicated to
serving the public and I believe we are fortunate indeed that
she is willing to perform this important job for our country at
such a critical time.
Madam Chairman and Members of the Committee, it is my
privilege to present Janet Hale.
Chairman Collins. Thank you very much, Senator Dole. Your
endorsement means a great deal to the Committee and I know it
does to the nominee as well. And we would be happy to excuse
you also at this point.
Mr. Ervin and Ms. Hale have filed responses to biographical
questions.
Senator Carper. It is going to be an interesting hearing.
Chairman Collins. For those of you in the audience who are
not aware of the Senate's schedule, we were in until 1 a.m.
last night.
They have filed responses to biographical and financial
questionnaires, answered pre-hearing questions submitted by the
Committee, and had their financial statements reviewed by the
Office of Government Ethics. Without objection, this
information will be made part of the hearing record with the
exception of the financial data which are on file and available
for public inspection in the Committee offices.
Our Committee rules require that all witnesses at
nomination hearings give their testimony under oath, so I would
ask that you both stand and raise your right hand.
[Witnesses sworn.]
Mr. Ervin, do you have a statement you would like to make?
Mr. Ervin. Yes, Madam Chairman.
Chairman Collins. Please proceed.
TESTIMONY OF HON. CLARK KENT ERVIN \1\ TO BE INSPECTOR GENERAL
FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY
Mr. Ervin. Good morning, Chairman Collins and other Members
of the Committee. I am grateful to you for holding this hearing
today on my nomination to serve as the Inspector General of the
Department of Homeland Security.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\1\ The prepared statement of Mr. Ervin appears in the Appendix on
page 30.
The biographical information appears in the Appendix on page 32.
Responses to pre-hearing questions appear in the Appendix on page
38.
Responses to post-hearing questions appear in the Appendix on
page 124.
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Let me begin by expressing my thanks and appreciation to
President Bush for the confidence in and support for me that he
has shown by once again nominating me for a high Federal
position. I also thank, of course, Senators Hutchison and
Cornyn for taking time out of their very busy schedules to be
here today on my behalf and for their extraordinarily kind
words of support.
Let me take a minute, if I may, also to introduce those
members of my family who could be present today. I am joined by
my wife, Carolyn Harris, and by my parents-in-law, Barbara and
Harold Harris, as well.
I am humbled, gratified, and excited by the prospect, if
confirmed, of serving as the first Inspector General of the
newest cabinet department representing, as you say, the largest
reorganization of the Federal Government in more than half a
century and charged with a mission of paramount importance,
protecting our homeland against terrorist attack.
Since being so designated by President Bush late last
month, I have served as the Acting Inspector General to the new
Department. Over the course of the first few weeks I have had a
number of occasions to speak to and to interact with both
Secretary Ridge and Deputy Secretary England. On several such
occasions each of them has both privately and publicly stressed
their support for me personally, and their appreciation of role
of the Inspector General as an independent, objective, analyst,
consultant, and constructive critic of the Department's
programs and operations. To their credit, they have sought to
involve me at the front end as the Department begins its
operations, as opposed to my having to come in after the fact
to conduct an inspection, audit, or investigation and finding
problems that could be minimized if caught early or, better
still, avoided altogether. Based on my experience so far with
the Secretary, the Deputy Secretary, and other members of the
senior management team, I expect to have a close and
collaborative working relationship with them.
As I believe that I demonstrated during the course of my
tenure as Inspector General of the Department of State and the
Broadcasting Board of Governors, I am deeply committed to the
mission of inspectors general. As I see it, through inspection,
evaluations, audits and investigations, it is to help the
departments for which we have oversight responsibility achieve
their respective missions in as efficient, effective, and
economical manner as possible.
The Department of Homeland Security faces a number of
significant management challenges. First, of course, it is a
new Department. Second, as of March 1 it will be a huge
Department, the third largest in the Federal Government with
more than 170,000 employees and a budget of more than $30
billion. It will be composed of 22 different Federal agencies
or parts thereof, each of which will bring its own set of
management challenges.
And last but not least, and as noted above, its mission,
protecting our country against terrorist attack, could not be
more important. It is no exaggeration to say that the fate of
our Nation depends upon the degree to which the Department
succeeds in accomplishing its mission. And in seeking to
accomplish a mission such as this, the Department cannot afford
to waste one minute or one dollar.
The Inspector General will play a key role in evaluating
the degree to which the Department is accomplishing its mission
and in recommending ways for it to do so as efficiently,
effectively, and economically as possible.
I pledge to each of you to be independent, objective,
thorough, apolitical, and when need be, critical of the
Department's programs and operations. I also pledge to be
responsive, equally so, to both the Secretary and the Congress.
I fully appreciate the fact that, if confirmed, I have a
responsibility to keep the Congress, as well as the Secretary,
thoroughly and promptly informed of significant findings and
developments.
One of the several gratifying aspects of my relatively
short tenure as Inspector General at the State Department and
the Broadcasting Board of Governors was developing a close and
productive working relationship with certain Congressional
members and staffers. Over the course of my tenure, the number
of Congressional requests for work products and hearings
steadily increased, which I took to be a measure of the
Congress's confidence in me and the team that I had assembled.
I hope to maintain Congress' confidence in me if confirmed for
this position, and I would look forward to working closely with
you, Chairman Collins, and other Members of the Committee or
staff, and any other members and staffers who have an interest
in Homeland Security-related matters.
With that, thank you again, Chairman Collins, and other
Members of the Committee, for holding this hearing today. And I
look forward to answering any questions that any of you may
have. Many thanks.
Chairman Collins. Thank you.
Ms. Hale, do you have a statement?
Ms. Hale. Yes, I do.
TESTIMONY OF JANET HALE \1\ TO BE UNDER SECRETARY FOR
MANAGEMENT FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY
Ms. Hale. Thank you very much, Senator Collins and
distinguished Members of this Committee.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\1\ The prepared statement of Ms. Hale appears in the Appendix on
page 55.
The biographical information appears in the Appendix on page 57.
Responses to pre-hearing questions appear in the Appendix on page
63.
Responses to post-hearing questions appear in the Appendix on
page 134.
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I, too, would like to take an opportunity to introduce some
folks that are with me. Unfortunately, my mother is in Florida,
my brother is in Southern California, but I have some friends
here. I will spare them.
But there are some people that work with both Clark and
myself at the Department of Homeland Security that came to show
their support for us and to understand the value of the
Department that you all created here. And I would personally
like to thank them and recognize that they have come up with us
today.
I obviously thank Senator Dole for her kind comments that
she offered on my behalf.
The primary mission of the new Department is clear, to
deter, detect, prepare for, and respond to terrorist attacks
and other threats against our country and our people. To
accomplish this, the Department will need budgetary and human
capital resources, technology development, and an efficient
management and infrastructure support.
The position I have been nominated to is charged with just
these responsibilities. I am fortunate to have served in such
capacities in both the public and private sector. I have had a
unique opportunity to serve from the program level at a
department, the departmental level, as Secretary Dole
referenced, Office of Management and Budget, and here on
Capitol Hill. I hope this has prepared me for the challenges
that we are facing.
Over the past few months, many people inside and outside
government have highlighted the enormous management challenges
facing the new Department. Merging 22 agencies and bringing
nearly 180,000 Federal workers under one Department will not be
an easy task. However with challenges comes opportunities. If
confirmed, I look forward to helping the Department establish
an organizational culture that values collaboration,
interoperability, and information sharing to take advantages of
these opportunities.
There are several critical things that the Under Secretary
for Management will need to focus on as a leader. First, all
the management functions must directly support the operational
mission and add value to the efforts of our men and women on
the front line who are protecting our homeland and the American
people.
Second, the Under Secretary of Management must work closely
with the four directors, the senior managers, and the IG to be
sure that we are enforcing and implementing the Department's
missions.
Third, the Under Secretary for Management must recognize
the importance of leveraging tremendous resources and
capabilities of these incoming agencies for the benefit of the
entire Department. The most important resources, of course, are
our Federal employees who deserve the best tools available in
order to ensure that they can effectively perform the homeland
security and other critical missions.
As Secretary Ridge said, new funding, technology and
equipment are important, but no more so than the people who are
willing to serve in this new Department. If confirmed, I am
committed to ensuring that the leadership of the Department
maintains continuous effective, two-way communication with our
employees throughout all the organization.
Finally, the Under Secretary must ensure that the
management systems and processes provide good stewardship of
government resources. The Department has a tremendous amount of
resources and responsibility. If confirmed, I promise that I
will honor those.
I have been truly privileged to be nominated for this
position and if the Senate should confirm me, I welcome the
opportunity to work with Congress, with you particularly, to
accomplish the important missions that we are charged in this
statute.
I look forward to answering your questions and I am pleased
to be here today sitting next to my colleague, Clark Ervin.
Thank you.
Chairman Collins. Thank you very much, Ms. Hale.
There are three standard questions that we ask of all
nominees for the record and I am going to begin my questioning
with those.
First, is there anything that you are aware of in your
background which might present a conflict of interest with the
duties of the office to which you have been nominated?
Mr. Ervin. No.
Ms. Hale. No.
Chairman Collins. Second, do you know of anything personal
or otherwise that would in any way prevent you from fully and
honorably discharging the responsibilities of the office to
which you have been nominated?
Mr. Ervin. No.
Ms. Hale. No.
Chairman Collins. And finally, do you agree without
reservation to respond to any reasonable summons to appear and
testify before any duly constituted committee of Congress if
you are confirmed?
Mr. Ervin. Absolutely.
Ms. Hale. Yes.
Chairman Collins. Mr. Ervin, the General Accounting Office
recently included the new Department of Homeland Security on
its 2003 high-risk list. The designation is based on three
factors. First, it is an enormous undertaking that will take
time to achieve in an effective and efficient manner.
Second, the Department's prospective components already
face a wide array of existing management and operational
challenges.
And third, the failure to effectively carry out its mission
exposes the Nation to potentially very serious consequences.
If you are confirmed as IG, how will you seek to ensure
that DHS addresses these concerns and challenges? And what is
your response to the GAO's listing the new Department on its
high-risk list?
Mr. Ervin. Madam Chairman, I think the GAO has done a good
job of identifying the significant challenges that face the
Department. And if I were to do so on my own, I would have
identified exactly those challenges.
As to how, if confirmed, I would proceed to help the
Department to address them, I would intend to have a very
robust inspections, audit, and investigative team thanks to the
various parts of Offices of Inspector General that I would
inherit. I would seek to conduct inspections, evaluations,
audits, and investigations where necessary with regard to those
three areas of challenge.
Furthermore, as I noted in my opening statement, to the
credit of the Secretary and the Deputy Secretary, I have been
involved to a significant degree at the front end, as the
Department begins its operations, and I have sought to provide
some advice and recommendations to the Secretary and other
senior management so that at the very beginning of its
operations issues can be avoided and a plan can be put in place
to address these challenges and others.
Chairman Collins. Mr. Ervin, some of the component agencies
of the new Department are, frankly, troubled agencies and the
Immigration and Naturalization Services is one that comes
immediately to mind. The INS, for example, has had continual
problems in managing its information technology resources that
are critical to its ability to function effectively,
particularly in a post-September 11 environment.
The Department of Justice's Inspector General, which has
issued numerous reports on this, as well as GAO have made a
series of recommendations designed to increase the
effectiveness of the information technology practices at INS.
As Inspector General, what would you do to ensure that we start
to actually solve some of the problems that will be transferred
to the new Department, particularly in the area of information
technology?
Mr. Ervin. Madam Chairman, I note that there are about 87
different information systems in INS alone. The large number of
information systems, the fact that those systems cannot
communicate with each other, the security vulnerabilities that
each of those systems has are all, as you say, issues in the
information technology area that have been identified by my
colleague, the DOJ Inspector General.
I have had the benefit of a number of briefings, both from
him personally and from other members of his team with regard
to those issues and others that affect INS. I would propose to
follow up on any outstanding recommendations with regard to
those issues, if confirmed, and indeed I would expect to
continue to do work in this area, both inspections and
evaluations and audits, as INS becomes a part of the Department
of Homeland Security.
Chairman Collins. Ms. Hale, one of the challenges facing
the new Department is developing a flexible and appropriate
personnel system. It is my understanding that the component
agencies are bringing in diverse personnel systems. I believe
that it is very important that the Federal employees unions be
fully involved in this process.
What are your plans for helping to integrate and develop a
personnel system with the advice and in consultation with the
Federal employee organizations?
Ms. Hale. I share your concern about the disparate systems
that we are inheriting from these agencies. It is truly a
concern of our employees and I think it is a considerable
concern of all of ours.
I have met with the senior union leadership and I have
pledged to them, as I will pledge to all of you because I know
of your concern, that they will be an intricate part. We need
to have employees on the front line, both union and nonunion
representative. We need middle management, we need senior
management to be sure that this system is developed with an
understanding of their business needs, their responsibilities
out there, and we have already begun the consultation with the
unions because they will be critically involved in this
project.
Chairman Collins. You are going to have an enormous task
covering many different areas with a large department, and a
complicated reorganization. If you are confirmed, what would be
your top priorities for the coming year?
Ms. Hale. I think first and foremost is a smooth
integration and transition of these agencies coming into the
Department. They clearly have diverse cultures, long histories,
and proud accomplishments, and we need to be sure that the men
and women on the front line do not see any adverse impact as
they are transferred to the new Department.
We then need to be sure that our IT systems are there to
support their mission. We need to be sure that we have a new
human capital system and an integrated financial management
system.
So I think if I started with the transition and then moved
to the serious task that you have identified, those would be my
top priorities.
Chairman Collins. Thank you. Senator Carper.
Senator Carper. Before I became a Senator I was a governor
for 8 years, the Governor of Delaware, and very active in the
National Governors Association.
One of the traits of the practices within the National
Governors Association is when a person is elected as a new
governor in November of a year, the National Governors
Association hosts what we literally call a new governor's
school, and a school for governors and spouses. it is a
wonderful time of sharing, where the old governors, the
grizzled veterans, teach the new governors where they screwed
up, the mistakes they made, and we learn from our experiences.
Each of the new governors is appointed or assigned a mentor
and it is a traditional organization. In my 8 years as
governor, I got to be the mentor for Gary Locke from
Washington, Governor Bob Wise from West Virginia, and also
Governor Tom Ridge, which is unusual because you do not
normally have someone from the opposite party. But he and I
were colleagues and friends together in the House for a long
time, came to the House together 20 years ago.
Among the advice that I shared with Governor-elect Ridge, I
said always surround yourself with people smarter than you. So
my question for both of you is are you both smarter than Tom
Ridge? [Laughter.]
Ms. Hale. Clark, that is yours.
Mr. Ervin. I certainly am not, Senator.
Ms. Hale. If I can follow your advice, I will not answer
because I think the guy is a great leader and I am proud to be
part of this team, but I hope that I will put people smarter
than me as my chief human capital officer and my CIO and CFO.
Senator Carper. That is a great answer.
Let us talk about team building. Can you talk to us about
the nature of the teams that you will build and lead in your
respective new assignments, if confirmed?
Mr. Ervin. Senator, I will inherit if confirmed, about 457
employees from various offices of inspector general. The FEMA
Office of Inspector General will be coming to the DHS office of
Inspector General in its entirety, about 200 people. I will be
getting a similar number, about 195 to be exact, from the
Treasury Department's Office of Inspector General, about 45
from the Department of Transportation's Office of Inspector
General, about 15 for the Department of Justice Inspector
General, and two positions and about $250,000 from both the
U.S. Department of Agriculture Inspector General and from GSA
Office of Inspector General, for a total of about 457 employees
and a budget of about $80 million.
In addition to having a Washington-based staff of around
100 or so, the rest of the people are located in field offices
around the country in the major cities of the country and along
the Southwest border, particularly with regard to INS work.
I would hope, beginning on day one, if confirmed, to do
what I can to craft a cohesive team that would, on day one
ideally and if not as soon as possible thereafter, to begin to
think of themselves not as employees of the Office of
Transportation Inspector General or FEMA Inspector General,
etc., but instead as members of one integrated cohesive team,
the Office of Department of Homeland Security Inspector
General, focused on the mission of the Department of Homeland
Security.
I have had occasion during the course of the last few
weeks, as acting Inspector General, to meet with some of the
employees who would be transferred to this office from the
Treasury Office of Inspector General and the FEMA Office of
Inspector General. I am heartened by the expertise and
credentials that these people bring, their dedication to their
respective missions. And if confirmed, I think that I will have
a team in place that is smarter than I and able to help me
perform the mission that I would be entrusted to perform.
Senator Carper. Thank you.
Ms. Hale, our Chairman already asked the question that was
on my mind, and she spoke of the representatives of employee
groups that you will be dealing with. I was very pleased to
hear that you have already begun to consult with them and to
listen to them and for them to hear you out, as well.
I would just say, I am not going to ask a question about
it, but I want to provide some positive reinforcement to say
that is just the kind of approach I would hope that you would
not only take initially, but one that you would continue to
embrace as you go forward.
One of the areas that I think--Senator Collins and I share
common interests in a whole lot of legislative areas. Really
coincidentally, one of the areas I think we have had some
common interest is in the sort of coordination there will be
between this new Department and State and local providers. Can
you share just a little bit, either of you but particularly Ms.
Hale, how you would approach that subject?
Ms. Hale. First, as you know, there is a State and local
coordinator that I will work closely with because I think it is
essential. Due to my tenure at the Department of Health and
Human Services, I understand how critically important it is to
provide the resources, which we did through the appropriations
in the Congress, for public health infrastructure preparedness.
I think that is the same thing we will see with the ODP grants
and the FEMA First Responder grants.
It is critical that we have one-stop shopping for the
States, clear messages, and clear interoperability.
So my goal is, just like I did at Transportation and at
HHS, to meet with them, understand their needs, and work
closely with my colleagues as we quickly get the money out and
provide the technical assistance that we need to be sure that
we are utilizing those resources.
Senator Carper. Good.
Mr. Ervin. If I could add to that, Senator, I certainly
share Ms. Hale's and the Department's interest in getting money
to States and localities just as quickly as possible, given the
immensity of the needs and the seriousness of the needs to
which the money would be put.
Equally important, of course, is ensuring that controls are
put in place, to ensure that the money is spent for the
intended purpose, and to ensure that the money achieves the
results that the money is intended to achieve.
Just recently I have sent some advice that I believe has
gone forward to the Secretary about just that. I will be very
interested, as Inspector General, to ensure that the Department
at the Federal level ensures, as I say, that the money is spent
for the intended purpose and that the results are achieved,
accountability and performance are very important criteria,
needless to say.
Senator Carper. When Vince Lombardi was the football coach,
the head coach at the Green Bay Packers, he used to say unless
you are keeping score, you are just practicing. And I have
always found in my life that the things that I measure or ask
others to measure are the things that we do best.
I guess my last question for each of you is how will you
measure the success of the team that you lead? How will you
measure, looking back a year, 2 years, 3 years from now? How
will you measure your success?
Mr. Ervin. Well, there are a number of ways, Senator. One
is led to believe that the number of products that he or she
produces is an important indicator of success. Of course, as
Inspector General, if I am confirmed, I would produce
inspection reports and audit reports. I expect, given the
immensity of the Department, and the complexity of its mission,
there will be a number of those reports.
But quantity is only one criterion and, relatively
speaking, it is the less important one. The important criterion
for me is ensuring that the Department achieves its mission as
effectively and efficiently and economically as possible.
If confirmed, I hope to have a long tenure. And at the end
of that tenure, I would hope to be able to say in a measured
way that there has been noticeable and demonstrable and
quantifiable progress in terms of economy, efficiency, and
effectiveness with regard to each of the Department's programs
and operations, or at least those that are most significant.
Senator Carper. Ms. Hale.
Ms. Hale. I share Clark's concerns. I would emphasize the
outcomes. I hope our borders are safer. I hope that the
response we give to disaster relief across the country is
provided efficiently and effectively. We will need to develop
the outcome measures that are necessary to be sure that we have
addressed the mission critical areas of our Department.
Senator Carper. Madam Chairman, I just want to again thank
our witnesses for being here today. Not only for that, but for
your willingness to serve our country during a really
challenging time.
Ms. Hale, you mentioned, I think, the name of your mom, I
think you mentioned your brother who are not here. I am sure
they are proud of you and we sent along our best to them. And
especially to your mom. Our thanks for raising a daughter who
has a commitment to public service.
Mr. Ervin, to you and to your family members who are
present, as well, we want to thank them for their willingness
to share you with all of us.
Mr. Ervin. Thank you, Senator.
Chairman Collins. Thank you, Senator.
We are following the early bird rules. Senator Lautenberg,
you would be next.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR LAUTENBERG
Senator Lautenberg. Thank you very much.
It is a pleasure to have a chance to hear two, if I can use
the term aspirants, so well qualified and experienced to take
on these important assignments. Frankly, I am still somewhat
concerned about the ability to organize all of this in what now
is an urgent moment. So each of you in your particular
responsibility is going to have a huge undertaking.
I think that as time goes by and the Chairperson has heard
me raise the question about what we do in the Senate to match
up to this new cabinet-level department. So I look at this, and
I reviewed some of the responses to the inquiries.
Mr. Ervin, one of the things that concerned me, I come out
of the corporate world, and the job of the Inspector General
is, of course, unique to the government, I believe, is how you
continue the association that you described you might have with
the Secretary, and talk about senior staff meetings, senior
leadership meetings, and about the chance to communicate at
those meetings.
I wonder how free you are to communicate the concerns that
you have or things that you start to see, because you are
prevented, by virtue of your responsibility, from early
discussions with--I think, with the Secretary, the person to
whom you report because you have to have had the information
you seek firmly in hand before any suggestions or any reports
are released.
Do you think that there is any kind of a compromise which
you ought to be concerned about with discussions at a senior
leadership meeting? I do not think you can freely discuss
research or ongoing investigations that your Department is
doing, can you?
Mr. Ervin. No, I completely agree with that, Senator, and I
did not mean to suggest otherwise. My role, really, in these
leadership meetings to date has been, appropriately I think,
only one of listening and informing myself as to what the
Department's plans are going forward. So that, at this early
stage, I can offer my suggestions and recommendations as to how
the Department might avoid things that might become pitfalls.
Senator Lautenberg. Right, and I think that is a proper
view.
What about the IT phase of this huge Department? How many
people will be assigned to the Inspector General's Office, do
you know?
Mr. Ervin. Yes, sir. There will be about 457 or so, and
they will be drawn from both Washington and offices in the
field.
I did something, I do not know if it is unique but it is
unusual, when I was the Inspector General at the State
Department with regard to IT operations. I formed a discrete, a
separate unit, in the Office of Inspector General solely,
exclusively to focus on information technology issues headed by
an Assistant Inspector General. And I would propose, if
confirmed, to do exactly the same thing.
One of the biggest challenges, as we have all noted here,
that the Department will face, of course, lies in the
information technology area in terms of interoperability, in
terms of efficiency, in terms of redundancy, in terms of other
such things, the information security needless to say.
What I would propose to do is to take a hard look at the
number of inspectors that I will be inheriting from these
different offices, I think there are around 14 or so. I will be
inheriting around 208 auditors, several of whom are not just
financial auditors but they have expertise in program audits,
as well.
And I would craft, from the inspections team and from the
audit team that I would inherit, a team of some size--I would
say in the 50-person range probably and hopefully grow over
time--to focus on information technology and information
security issues. It is a critical part of my mission.
Senator Lautenberg. How early do you think it would be
possible for you to be involved? The planning part of the job
is, I think, a very important one. You make recommendations
based on the experience that you have had, and based on the
outcome that you would like to see. So do you see being asked
to intervene at an early period of time, in terms of laying out
the strategy for creating the organization, particularly as it
affects the IT section?
Mr. Ervin. As a matter of fact, just a few days ago I had
occasion to, I sought and received a briefing, from the
Department's CIO, Chief Information Officer, about his plans as
to enterprise architecture for the Department and his plans
generally for proceeding with regard to information technology
and information security issues.
I and my Assistant Inspector General for Information
Technology Designate, if confirmed, were pleased by what we
heard and thought that the Department, based on what we heard,
was proceeding in the right direction. And we would propose, if
I am confirmed, to continue to monitor that, to make
recommendations along the way, with regard to things that we
think the Department might be able to do better and more
economically and efficiently.
Senator Lautenberg. What do you have to do to get the
resources, both personnel and non-personnel resources, that you
need? Do you start out by getting a budget or requesting a
budget that you know can cover the needs of the Department?
Mr. Ervin. Yes, sir. As I say, the 457 people I will be
inheriting from these various Offices of Inspectors General or
parts thereof, and a budget of about $80 million. And I hope
that that will be sufficient for purposes of starting to do the
work that the Office of Inspector General must do.
Having said that, I would note that this is a huge
Department, needless to say, the largest Department in the
Federal Government, more than 170,000 employees, more than $30
billion budget.
I would argue that over time thought should be given as to
whether the Office of Inspector General should be comparable in
size to other offices of Inspector General that oversee
comparably-sized departments. The Office of Inspector General
of the DOD, the Office of Inspector General at HHS, and the
Office of Inspector General at the Tax Enforcement
Administration are in the range of 1,000 people. And I would
argue that over time an Office of Inspector General of
comparable size would be in order for a department of this
size.
Senator Lautenberg. I see it says stop. That means go
faster.
Madam Chairman, we are fortunate to have two such skilled
people, and the fact that you have worked together, I think,
adds a degree of comfort to us that you are available to take
this assignment.
I need not caution you about how complicated life is going
to get to be. Perhaps you should remember to greet your wife
every time you see her because they may be less frequent than
they used to be. The fact is that it is heartening to see such
good candidates. We congratulate you as you go forth.
Mr. Ervin. Thank you, Senator.
Chairman Collins. Thank you, Senator.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SEANTOR AKAKA
Senator Akaka. Thank you very much, Madam Chairman. I want
to compliment you on this hearing and your work as Chairperson
of this Committee. And I want to welcome our panelists and also
your family and friends to this hearing.
Having as hard-hitting Senators as you have to introduce
you this morning, there is no question about your experience
and abilities. What you have done for our government already is
commendable. I have a few questions to ask of both of you.
Ms. Hale, if confirmed as Under Secretary for Management,
you will be responsible for human resources and personnel,
which will be a huge and enormous responsibility given the
overall structure of the Homeland Security Department.
As you know, Section 881 of the Homeland Security Act
required the Secretary, in consultation with the Office of
Personnel Management, to report to Congress by February 24 on a
plan to eliminate disparities in pay and benefits for the new
Department. I know from a discussion that I had with Deputy
Secretary England that pay disparities with Federal law
enforcement officers have been studied. However, that addresses
only one of many issues, other issues relating to pay and
benefits that must be addressed.
February 24 has passed. March 1 is coming. Why has this
overall deadline been missed? And what is the status of the
plan, if there is such a plan?
Ms. Hale. The status of the plan is that it is this close,
and I think it will be up here in the next couple of days. One
of the things that I think is terribly important, as I know
that Chairman Collins and you and others had the opportunity to
discuss this with Deputy Secretary England, is that we think it
is terribly important to be sure that we look at this in
relationship not just to the disparities.
What you will see when the report comes up is just, as you
know, the tremendous disparities that exist among our agencies.
But far more importantly, as you both have indicated, it is
critical that we start the design of the new system and we need
to look at them in concert.
So we think that it is important to kick off that effort of
designing, including our employees, the unions, our management
from across the country, and from all of our agencies. And I
look forward to doing that.
When I was at the Office of Management and Budget I spent a
significant period of time looking at the disparities and
watched one by one the law enforcement agencies get different
benefits at different times. And this really is the time, under
the auspices of this Department and your statute, that we bring
those together.
I think it will be a period of time before we can resolve
all of them but doing it in concert, I think, is critical.
Senator Akaka. Mr. Ervin, Inspectors General conduct
independent and objective investigations, audits, and
inspections in order to promote economy and efficiency while
preventing waste, fraud, and abuse. However, the Homeland
Security Act provides broad authority to halt an IG inspection
and investigation. In fact, the Secretary of Homeland Security
is authorized to prohibit the Inspector General from carrying
out or completing any audit or inspection.
Mr. Ervin, do you believe these limitations will affect
your ability to protect against waste, fraud and abuse?
Mr. Ervin. Senator, I took note of that limitation
provision in the statute and I discussed it, as a matter of
fact, with Secretary Ridge in my very first encounter with him.
He assured me at the time, and I take him at his word, that he
is unlikely ever to invoke that provision. He says that he
cannot conceive of a circumstance under which he would invoke
the provision.
As you know, it is limited to those instances where, in his
judgment, an inspection, audit or investigation by the
Inspector General would in some way, or could, compromise
intelligence matters, national security matters, criminal
investigations, etc.
I think I have demonstrated in my relatively short time as
Inspector General of the State Department, where there is no
such limitation on the Inspector General incidentally, that I
am very sensitive to the proper handling of intelligence
information, other national security information, and criminal
investigations. And so I believe that there should be no
concern about my ability to handle such matters and then carry
through with an inspection, audit, or investigation.
I take Secretary Ridge at his word that he would not invoke
that provision. I believe that he takes me at my word when I
say that he would not need to invoke that provision.
Of course, no Inspector General or no one likes the notion
of a limitation on his or her power, particularly given the
importance of the mission of this office. I would note that
there is a similar provision, as you know, with regard to the
Inspector General of the Defense Department, the Central
Intelligence Agency, and in certain others. I believe the
Treasury Department, as well.
There is no such limitation on the State Department
Inspectors General, as I say. As a practical matter, I do not
think it will be a problem because I do not believe that the
Secretary will invoke the provision.
Senator Akaka. Madam Chairman, my time has expired. Let me
just say, before I leave, that I am interested and concerned
about whistleblowers. I have one more a question and then I
will place in the record other questions.
Chairman Collins. If you would like to ask it, feel free,
Senator.
Senator Akaka. Thank you very much, for that.
Mr. Ervin, ensuring that employees at the new Department
have full whistleblower rights and protections has been very
important to me and to all of us on this Committee. The
Inspector General plays, without question, a significant role
in helping whistleblowers disclose waste, fraud, and abuse
without retaliation.
As a nominee for Inspector General at the Department of
Homeland Security, how do you view the role of the IG as it
relates to whistleblowers?
Mr. Ervin. Senator, I too share your interest in and
concern for these issues. Whistleblowers must be protected if
the function of government is to proceed as it should.
The way I handled it when I was Inspector General at the
State Department, and the way that I would propose to handle it
if I am fortunate enough to be confirmed as Inspector General
of the Homeland Security Department, is as follows: As you
know, there is a separate independent Federal prosecutorial
agency called the Office of Special Counsel. And if one looks
at the website of the Office of Special Counsel, it says that
its mission is to safeguard the merit system by protecting
Federal employees and applicants from prohibited personnel
practices, especially reprisal for whistleblowing. It is the
primary mission of that office.
Likewise, of course, as you suggested, the Office of
Inspector General has an interest in whistleblowing, as well.
A secondary mission of the Office of Special Counsel is
doing what it can do to guard against waste, fraud, and abuse.
That is a major part of the mission of the Office of Inspector
General. So there is a lot of parallelism and complementariness
in the missions of the Office of Inspector General and the
Office of Special Counsel.
The way I handled it at State and the way I propose to
handle it at Homeland Security is if someone alleged that he or
she was being retaliated against for having cooperated with, or
for that matter initiated, an Office of Inspector General
investigation, then I would seek to investigate that
whistleblower allegation myself because, of course, such an
allegation would go to the very integrity and efficacy and
continued efficacy of the Office of Inspector General. It would
obviously have a chilling effect on our investigations if
people could, without consequence, be retaliated against for,
as I say, either initiating or cooperating with our
investigations.
If however, there was an allegation that there was
retaliation for whistleblowing but there was no allegation that
the retaliation resulted from cooperating with or initiating an
Office of Inspector General investigation, my inclination would
be, subject to the circumstances, to refer that matter to the
Office of Special Counsel, for two reasons.
One, as I say, dealing with whistleblower allegations is
the primary mission of the Office of Special Counsel. Second,
the Office of Special Counsel, as I understand it, has a staff
of about 106 criminal investigators and lawyers. Whereas, the
Office of Inspector General, at least at the State Department,
we were very understaffed in terms of criminal investigators.
During the course of my tenure, I think we went down from 30 to
20.
One of the felicitous things about the Department of
Homeland Security, if I am fortunate to be confirmed is, as I
may have said earlier, will be a much larger criminal
investigative force.
But that, generally, is the approach that I took there. I
am inclined to say that I would take the same approach at
Homeland Security if I am fortunate enough to be confirmed.
Senator Akaka. Thank you very much for your response, and
for both of you being here today.
Madam Chairman, thank you for extending the time for me.
Chairman Collins. Absolutely. Senator Pryor.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR PRYOR
Senator Pryor. Thank you, Madam Chairman.
I actually do not have any questions, but more of a
challenge for both of you. You all may have been here when now
Secretary Ridge testified before the Committee. Many of us
talked about this with him.
You have this tremendous opportunity to have a brand-new
department. We all know, everybody in this room, everybody in
this country, from time to time gets fed up with bureaucracy
and government and some of the seemingly idiotic things or the
bad results sometimes the government gets itself into when
everybody is trying to do the right thing and trying to do
good.
But both of you, especially in this Department, have a
unique opportunity to set the course of this Department and set
the tone, set up a framework where this Department could be the
model agency in all of government. I hope you seize this
opportunity and take the chance that history is giving you to
go out there and do great things for this Nation and the world,
and also do great things for our government so that other
agencies, other departments can look to you about how to do
things the right way, and the creative things that can be done
in a government agency--under very difficult circumstances
admittedly--but things that can be done there.
And I just want to leave you all with that challenge and
hope that you will go to the office every single day trying to
establish this agency as a model agency for all of our
government.
Thank you, Senator.
Chairman Collins. Thank you very much, Senator Pryor.
Again, I want to thank our two nominees for appearing
today. It is my hope that the Committee will be able to act
expeditiously next week on your nominations to bring them
before the full Senate for confirmation.
I also want to express my personal appreciation for your
willingness to serve your country, particularly in such
challenging jobs. So thank you very much for your public
service and for being with us this morning.
We will now move to our second panel. We will consider and
call up Linda Springer, who has been nominated to be the
Controller of the Office of Federal Financial Management at the
Office of Management and Budget.
Ms. Springer is currently the Counselor to the Deputy
Director for Management at the Office of Management and Budget.
Prior to that she served in a number of executive positions in
the private sector.
Ms. Springer's strong background and experience in
financial systems and management makes her well qualified for
the position to which she has been nominated.
Ms. Springer has filed responses to questionnaires,
including biographical and financial information. She has
answered pre-hearing questions submitted by the Committee,
undergone an interview with the Committee staff, and had her
financial statements reviewed by the Office of Government
Ethics.
Without objection, this information will be made part of
the hearing record, with the exception of the financial data
which are on file and available for public inspection in the
Committee offices.
Our Committee rules require that all witnesses give their
testimony under oath. So Ms. Springer, I would ask that you
stand and please raise your right hand.
[Witness sworn.]
Ms. Springer, if you have a statement that you would like
to make you can proceed at this time.
TESTIMONY OF LINDA M. SPRINGER \1\ TO BE CONTROLLER OF THE
OFFICE OF FEDERAL FINANCIAL MANAGEMENT FOR THE OFFICE OF
MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET
Ms. Springer. I do. Thank you, Madam Chairman.
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\1\ The prepared statement of Ms. Springer appears in the Appendix
on page 105.
The biographical information appears in the Appendix on page 107.
Responses to pre-hearing questions appear in the Appendix on page
114.
Responses to post-hearing questions appear in the Appendix on
page 136.
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I would also like to introduce, if I may, my family members
who are here.
Chairman Collins. Please do.
Ms. Springer. My mother is here, and my brother, in the
back. And my uncle and cousin, all from Pennsylvania.
Chairman Collins. We welcome you all here today.
Senator Lautenberg. Madam Chairman, if I may intervene with
just a short statement.
Chairman Collins. Absolutely.
Senator Lautenberg. I note with pride that Ms. Springer was
born in New Jersey, that she spent some part of her
professional life, I believe, as well in our State and comes
with a wealth of experience that we are pleased to have in
government.
We congratulate your mother and your family, as well, for
having achieved this distinction that you are about to become,
and we thank you for being here and we are proud of the things
that you have done in the past, and look forward to talking to
you for a moment about how you tackle this incredible job that
lies ahead.
Thank you very much, Madam Chairman. Thank you, Ms.
Springer, for being here.
Chairman Collins. I thank the Senator.
Ms. Springer. Thank you, Senator. I might add that all of
the family members that are here also have spent time in New
Jersey as well. So we have a fondness for both States.
Madam Chairman and Senator Lautenberg, Senator Pryor, as
you know, I am pleased to be here today as the President's
nominee to become Controller in the Office of Federal Financial
Management at the Office of Management and Budget.
My attraction to this position began last spring when I
read the President's management agenda. My reaction was
twofold. First I asked if the government was really this
serious about management issues. And second, if it was, I
wanted to be a part of it.
As someone who is coming to government for the first time,
I bring high expectations and standards for financial
management. These are standards that I have held myself, as
well as my staff in the areas for which I have been
professionally responsible for over 25 years.
There are three particular manifestations of these
standards that I would like to share with the Committee today.
The first is that financial management extends beyond a clean
audit opinion. Integrity and reliability, things to which a
clean audit attests, should be a given. In that area, with the
particular help of this Committee, the Federal Government is
making progress. A record 21 of 24 of the CFO Act agencies
received clean audit opinions in 2002.
But achievement of even 24 of 24 clean audits would not
necessarily prove the existence of strong financial management.
First class financial management requires integration of the
financial impact of agency activities and decisions in
operational execution and in senior management decisionmaking.
It is accompanied by accountability standard setting,
performance tracking, and other analysis.
These are among the characteristics we should seek in
government every bit as much as they are expected in the
private sector.
That leads to the second principle. Government should be
held to the highest, if not higher, standards of financial
management performance as the private sector. The Federal
Government's constituents do not have the option of taking
their business elsewhere. Citizens cannot elect to halt new
investments; i.e., tax payments, until the company, the Federal
Government, has improved its financial practices.
Accordingly, I believe it is incumbent on every financial
professional in government to execute his or her
responsibilities according to standards of excellence that are
consistent with this stewardship responsibility.
The third principle is that the effort to advance the
quality of financial management in the Federal Government
largely transcends political philosophy. The government's
financial managers are dedicated to making programs work better
and more efficiently regardless of their purpose, and I
certainly will be as well.
It is analogous to the situation of the auto mechanic who
is working to achieve optimal engine performance. His or her
work is independent of the size of a car, the destination of
the trip, or the identity of the driver. It occurs to me that I
should tell you that I like to roll up my sleeves and get a
little grease on my hands in checking the engine. So I am very
committed to that principle.
Should I be confirmed as Controller, I will lead the Office
of Federal Financial Management with these principles in mind,
in promoting and assisting the development of the type of
environment that I have described. You have my personal
commitment that I will give my very best effort in that
responsibility.
I do want to acknowledge the increased attention to strong
financial management, of which I have been made aware, in both
the Legislative and the Executive Branches, particularly as a
result of the efforts of this good Committee. I hope to have
the opportunity to participate in a continuation of that
effort.
Finally, I want to recognize and express my gratitude to
the staff of the Office of Federal Financial Management for
their work, and also to my family for their support in the
period that has led up to this hearing.
Thank you, Madam Chairman.
Chairman Collins. Thank you very much, Ms. Springer.
As I explained with our first panel, there are three
standard questions that we ask of all nominees, and I would
like to proceed with those at this time.
First, is there anything that you are aware of in your
background which might present a conflict of interest with the
duties of the office to which you have been nominated?
Ms. Springer. No, there is not.
Chairman Collins. Second, do you know of anything personal
or otherwise that would in any way prevent you from fully and
honorably discharging the responsibilities of the office to
which you have been nominated?
Ms. Springer. No.
Chairman Collins. And finally, do you agree without
reservation to respond to any reasonable summons to appear and
testify before any duly constituted committee of Congress if
you are confirmed?
Ms. Springer. Yes, I do.
Chairman Collins. Ms. Springer, there has long been a
concern by Members of this Committee, and it is a concern that
I share, that management issues seem to take a back seat to
budget matters within the Office of Management and Budget. I
was interested in your testimony that before agreeing to go to
OMB you raised this very issue. But I do feel it is so
important that we put the M back in OMB, and it is my
impression that, while this administration is making progress
in that area, budget issues still tend to be the major focus of
the office.
What is your perspective on the emphasis placed on
management?
Ms. Springer. I think, Senator, that there is a perception
that, by virtue of the size of the budget staff at the Office,
that you could have the impression that management still is a
lowercase ``m'' relative to the budget side.
I would say that it is my observation so far that
management probably has gotten more attention in recent years
under the director and that has been reinforced now with the
recent nomination of Mr. Johnson to the deputy director
position for management. And also, in talking with the people
on the budget side, the resource management offices, that they
are very committed to partnering with the staff on the
statutory management side in achieving our management goals.
So I have seen an increasing amount of attention and I
expect that to continue and I will be working very hard to make
sure that it does.
Chairman Collins. Financial management related issues have
been on the General Accounting Office's annual high-risk list
for many years. That is the list of programs or operations that
the GAO determines are particularly vulnerable to waste, fraud,
abuse, and mismanagement. The GAO has designated several
agencies' financial management--and they are major agencies,
the Department of Defense, for example, IRS, FAA, and the
Forest Service--as high risk.
In the most recent high-risk report, the GAO acknowledged
that a wide range of financial management initiatives are
underway and progress is being made. But we are still seeing
departments and programs that are on the high-risk list year
after year after year. In fact, some programs have been on the
list since the inception of the high risk list which, I
believe, is about a dozen years ago.
What do you think should be done to make dramatic progress
in improving the financial management systems of the Federal
Government?
Ms. Springer. I have had the opportunity, with this new
high risk list that has just been published, to start to review
those reports. I have requested them and I have started to read
them. And I share your observation and your concern about the
length of time that it takes for the remediation activities.
One thing that I have noted is that there is a direct
relationship between the time it takes and the size of the
department. So that a department the size of the Department of
Defense, for example, will take longer for its remediation to
be totally installed and fruitful just by virtue of the size of
the operation.
Having said that, it will be my plan to visit with each of
those departments, their chief financial officers and, where it
is appropriate, their chief information officers, and have the
opportunity to review their plans with them, to see that there
are milestones, metrics, and accountability standards and ways
to see that it is on track. We will do that on a regular basis
where it is appropriate.
And the staff of the Office of Federal Financial Management
are assigned, as well, to each of these agencies so that we
will be able to put very strong attention to monitoring
progress on those plans.
Should we find that there is not a plan in place, then
obviously that would be step one, to work with those
departments to make sure they have a viable plan to address
those issues.
Chairman Collins. What do you see as the relationship
between an agency or a department's chief information officer
and the chief financial officer? As I am sure you are aware,
the Clinger-Cohen Act mandated the creation of CIOs across
government and envisioned a close working relationship and a
far greater emphasis on management of technology and
information systems than had been the case prior to the Act.
What is your assessment of the Act and how well it is
working as you look across the Federal Government?
Ms. Springer. I do not think that there is any more
important partnership in the agencies, as I have found to be
the case in the private sector, than between the chief
information officer and the chief financial officer. Without
the integrity and the timeliness of good data, the chief
financial officer or any other senior officer in the agency
will not be able to make informed decisions.
So I think that the Act is absolutely on target. I think
that the agencies--what I have seen is that there is a
different structure in place in each agency. In some cases,
there is a reporting relationship, for example, between the
chief information officer and the chief financial officer. In
other departments it is structured a little bit differently.
And it will be one of my objectives to take the temperature
and really get an assessment of how well that is working. One
of the ways to gauge it will be to see how well the agencies
are able to meet the accelerated time frames we have for
financial reporting and to be able to have a look at some of
the performance metrics and the timeliness and the quality of
the data associated with those.
Chairman Collins. Thank you. Senator Lautenberg.
Senator Lautenberg. Thank you, very much, Senator Collins.
You know, you had me nodding my head because I was, as I
mentioned, in the corporate sector for a long time before I
came here. Whatever I do seems to take a long time.
I ran a company called ADP and I was a founder of that
company. We were three kids just out of school and borrowed
$5,000 from an unwitting investor and produced a company that
today has 40,000 employees. And when the CEO, the last one that
I picked in my work at ADP--the first one already retired but I
could not stand that--the fellow now who runs the company, the
CEO, when he gives a speech to employees it is immediately
translated to 10 languages. The scope of the company, even
though I sat there through its beginnings and its development,
it is one of America's most successful public companies. I look
at it in awe. I look at it as a true example of the American
opportunity.
The three of us, two of my partners were brothers. Their
family, like mine, were hard working factory people in
Patterson, New Jersey. And here we have a company that had the
longest growth record of any company in America, over 10
percent a year. That record, unfortunately, was just broken
after 42 years. The CEO said publicly that it will be down to
single digit growth in the next year because of the conditions
around us. That it is not bad, 42 years of 10 percent increases
each and every year.
It was a good investment and I'm sorry I still do not have
it.
The thing that struck me, I am on the board of a not-for-
profit organization that is part of a quasi-governmental entity
here in Washington. We got in an argument about how clean is
clean. What does it really mean? You hit on a very good
observation that, I guess, was from your experience with
Cooper's, was it?
Ms. Springer. And in the financial services generally, yes.
Senator Lautenberg. When we looked at what happened to some
of America's purportedly great companies who walked away with
clean opinions from their auditors and it turned out that they
were totally defrauding the public and the investors and people
affiliated with them, it is one of America's most disgraceful
private sector moments.
I am on the board of the Columbia Business School, my alma
mater, and just arranged for a chair to be established on
corporate governance. And while on the board of this agency
that I was talking about, the discussion about someone who was
waving the clean flag while we were having all kinds of
management problems, unable to keep up with our receivables,
unable to keep up with our payables, unable to keep up with our
need for resources for our mission.
To hear you say that is reassuring to me, Ms. Springer, I
can tell you that, and the alert that you put up when you say
that standards for financial management in government have to
match the highest that we seek for any operating entity whether
it is private or otherwise.
So again, I commend you for that insight and hope that you
will be able to continue to insist on that as a standard.
Now you are going to work with the most beloved agency in
government, OMB. But I think you have got broad enough
shoulders to withstand the occasional carping that might take
place.
Are you prohibited from expressing opinions about financial
policy as a controller, would you say?
Ms. Springer. No, actually, I think that one of the main
focuses of the Office of Federal Financial Management is to be
a force behind policy. So oftentimes that will relate in a very
specific sense for forming content of financial statements. It
may involve, in a broader sense, working for example, as last
year, with the Committee on legislative activities in the area
of improper payments, erroneous payments, and things like that
that led to the Act last year.
I view that as the model for how the Legislative and
Executive Branches can work together to achieve a common
objective. So I would like to see more of that and I think we
can work in the policy area.
Senator Lautenberg. Let me ask you this without meaning to
in any way cause you any discomfort. Financing operations on a
deficit basis, is that something that you would opine on?
Ms. Springer. I do not think that that necessarily would be
a part of my job description.
Senator Lautenberg. You are good. You are going to be
terrific.
Thank you, very much.
Ms. Springer. Thank you, Senator.
Chairman Collins. Thank you, Senator Lautenberg.
Ms. Springer, just one final question. If we were to bring
you back before this Committee a year from now, what would you
hope to have accomplished? What are your priorities for this
year?
Ms. Springer. There are several, Madam Chairman. The main
priorities would, first of all, be in the area of moving toward
meeting the accelerated time frame goals for 2004 for the
financial statements from each of the agencies. I would hope
that we could come back with a higher number of agencies beyond
the 21 with clean opinions, I would like to be able to report
that to the Committee. I would like to be able to report that a
number of them were turned in on a shorter time frame than they
were in 2002. So I would like to be able to report progress in
that area.
I would like to be able to report that we have made
progress on erroneous payments. As you know, the original
estimate was in the $20 billion range. And as a result of the
reporting now required under the Act and that was required by
OMB in the last budget cycle, the number now is closer to $35
billion. I would like to be able to report to the Committee a
year from now that that number is lower, and it already has
come down in some areas, but we would like to see a lot more.
Those two items are at the top of the list and I am sure,
as I am more fully engaged, should I be confirmed, that there
will be a number of others on the list.
Chairman Collins. I was hoping you were going to report to
us that the erroneous payments, rather than growing to $35
billion would, because of better reporting, I suspect,
declined. That really is a very serious problem and an issue
that this Committee looks forward to working with you on.
I want to thank you very much for appearing today. I do
hope that the Committee will be able to move expeditiously on
your confirmation next week. We appreciate your willingness to
serve.
Thank you.
Ms. Springer. Thank you, Madam Chairman.
Chairman Collins. Without objection, the hearing record
will remain open until 5 p.m. today for the submission of any
written questions or statements for the record.
This hearing is now adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 12:31 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]
A P P E N D I X
----------
PREPARED STATEMENT OF SENATOR VOINOVICH
Good morning and thank you, Madam Chairman. Today, the Senate
Governmental Affairs Committee meets to consider nominations for three
important government management posts, two at the Department of
Homeland Security, and one at the Office of Management and Budget.
I would like to extend a warm greeting to our nominees, including
the Honorable Clark Kent Ervin for Inspector General at the Department
of Homeland Security; Ms. Janet Hale for Under Secretary for Management
at the Department of Homeland Security; and Ms. Linda Springer for
Controller of the Office of Federal Financial Management at the Office
of Management and Budget.
The role of Inspector General of Homeland Security is extremely
important to the success of the new Department. If confirmed, Mr. Ervin
will serve as the internal watchdog by conducting audits,
investigations, and maintaining strict oversight of the Department.
Specifically, the Inspector General will ensure that the Department's
employees and managers uphold the Homeland Security mission of
protecting the American public against another terrorist attack. As you
know, Members of Congress take their oversight role very seriously, so
I can appreciate the significance of the Inspector General's
responsibilities. I look forward to working with Mr. Ervin as he
embarks on this challenging opportunity.
The Under Secretary for Management is responsible for the
administration and management of the Department of Homeland Security.
If confirmed, Ms. Janet Hale will oversee the daunting task of
transitioning and reorganizing 170,000 employees from 22 different
agencies into one new Department. In addition to this massive
undertaking, the Under Secretary for Management will direct other
departmental activities including the budget, procurement, personnel,
facilities and equipment, security, and grants and other management
assistance programs. Therefore, the person selected for this position
must have a broad set of competiencies to accomplish the challenges
associated with the largest government restructuring since the creation
of the Department of Defense in 1947. After reviewing her
qualifications, I am confident that Ms. Hale possesses the skills
necessary for the Under Secretary position. As a fellow Buckeye, I
promise to closely monitor her progress.
This morning, we will also hear from Ms. Linda Springer, the
President's nominee for the Controller of the Office of Federal
Financial Management at the Office of Management and Budget. With over
25 years of private sector experience, I commend her for answering the
President's call to serve our country. I am certain that Ms. Springer's
knowledge and background will be extremely helpful to the Federal
Government's financial management community.
I hope that we can move these nominations through the confirmation
process in an expeditious manner. Thank you Madam Chairman.
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