[Joint House and Senate Hearing, 108 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
AFTER THE DETENTION AND DEATH OF SUN ZHIGANG: PRISONS AND DETENTION IN
CHINA
=======================================================================
ROUNDTABLE
before the
CONGRESSIONAL-EXECUTIVE COMMISSION ON CHINA
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
OCTOBER 27, 2003
__________
Printed for the use of the Congressional-Executive Commission on China
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CONGRESSIONAL-EXECUTIVE COMMISSION ON CHINA
LEGISLATIVE BRANCH COMMISSIONERS
House
Senate
JIM LEACH, Iowa, Chairman
DOUG BEREUTER, Nebraska
DAVID DREIER, California
FRANK WOLF, Virginia
JOE PITTS, Pennsylvania
SANDER LEVIN, Michigan
MARCY KAPTUR, Ohio
SHERROD BROWN, Ohio
DAVID WU, Oregon
CHUCK HAGEL, Nebraska, Co-Chairman
CRAIG THOMAS, Wyoming
SAM BROWNBACK, Kansas
PAT ROBERTS, Kansas
GORDON SMITH, Oregon
MAX BAUCUS, Montana
CARL LEVIN, Michigan
DIANNE FEINSTEIN, California
BYRON DORGAN, North Dakota
EXECUTIVE BRANCH COMMISSIONERS
PAULA DOBRIANSKY, Department of State*
GRANT ALDONAS, Department of Commerce*
LORNE CRANER, Department of State*
JAMES KELLY, Department of State*
John Foarde, Staff Director
David Dorman, Deputy Staff Director
* Appointed in the 107th Congress; not yet formally appointed in
the 108th Congress.
(ii)
C O N T E N T S
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Page
STATEMENTS
Seymour, James Dulles, senior research scholar, Columbia
University, East Asian Institute, New York, NY................. 2
Tanner, Murray Scot, senior political scientist, RAND
Corporation, Arlington, VA..................................... 5
AFTER THE DETENTION AND DEATH OF SUN ZHIGANG: PRISONS AND DETENTION IN
CHINA
----------
MONDAY, OCTOBER 27, 2003
Congressional-Executive
Commission on China,
Washington, DC.
The roundtable was convened, pursuant to notice, at 1:30
p.m., in room 2168, Rayburn House Office building, John Foarde
(staff director) presiding.
Also present: David Dorman, deputy staff director; Susan
Weld, general counsel; Carl Minzner, senior counsel; Steve
Marshall, senior advisor; and Keith Hand, senior counsel.
Mr. Foarde. I would like to welcome everyone to this issues
roundtable of the Congressional-Executive Commission on China.
On behalf of our Chairman, Jim Leach, and our Co-chairman,
Senator Chuck Hagel, welcome to our two panelists and to all
who are here to observe and to listen.
Our subject matter today is not the most pleasant in the
world, but we think that it is important and interesting. It is
particularly interesting for us, with our mandate on human
rights and rule of law.
We had followed very closely the case of Sun Zhigang, a 27-
year-old fashion designer and migrant worker who died 3 days
after his arrest last spring in Guangzhou. The autopsy showed
that he had been badly beaten before his death. As the facts
came out, he was beaten because he was unable to produce a
residence permit.
He was taken to a local police station and then moved to a
custody and repatriation transfer center, which is part, or was
part, of the nationwide system in China for the detention and
control of migrant workers in urban areas. Sun died at the
clinic of the transfer center on March 20.
What ensued, from our point of view, was something valuable
and unique, in that a debate broke out and public pressure was
brought on the government about the whole question of custody
and repatriation, about conditions not only in transfer centers
for urban migrants, but also in detention centers, period.
Although eventually that debate was cut off or truncated,
we thought that it broke out for the first time in a number of
very interesting ways. So, we wanted to get two experts on
these aspects of the Chinese criminal justice system in to
examine these questions.
We are delighted that we have finally been able to get Dr.
Jim Seymour to come down from Columbia to talk to us about the
detention system. He has done a lot of work on Chinese human
rights generally over the past 15 or 20 years, but particularly
co-published or co-wrote a wonderful book on China's prisons.
And Dr. Scot Tanner, who we had the pleasure of hosting at
a hearing last year, and now is down here in the Washington
area permanently, who is an expert on police and police
procedure in the People's Republic of China [PRC].
So, without further introduction, let me just say how we
usually conduct things here at these roundtables. We normally
give our panelists 10 minutes to make an opening presentation,
with the understanding that you may not have time to cover
everything you wanted to cover in 10 minutes.
Once all panelists have spoken, we open it up to questions
and answers from the staff panel. We hope we will also be
joined by personal staff to our Commission members, but given
what the weather is like at present, who knows whether they
will actually join us.
Everyone here will get a chance to do at least one round,
if not two, of questions and answers. We give everybody about 5
minutes to ask a question and listen to the answer.
Without further ado then, let me introduce Dr. Seymour to
start off with the presentation. Thank you.
STATEMENT OF JAMES DULLES SEYMOUR, SENIOR RESEARCH SCHOLAR,
COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY, EAST ASIAN INSTITUTE, NEW YORK, NY
Mr. Seymour. Thank you very much. I am delighted that you
are holding these hearings today.
I prepared a rather detailed, and I hope comprehensive,
paper. I do not know where the pile ended up, but it is
available. They are back there someplace.
Anyway, I think I can see your eyes glazing over at the
thought of my reading that paper, so what I thought I would do
instead is let the paper stand as it is and I would just hit a
few of the highlights, organizing my remarks somewhat
differently, just to keep it clear and not unnecessarily
complicated.
It is kind of a good news/bad news scenario. I will start
with the bad news, and then I will come back to--well, it is
not really good news--but better news.
The bad news is pretty well known. This is a very large
prison system, upward of 2 million prisoners. It is erratically
managed. It is often very poorly managed, although there are,
of course, also some better managed institutions. Conditions
are often very harsh. Even when administrators have the best of
intentions, they lack the resources to maintain the prisons
according to decent standards.
Then, of course, there is the separate problem that many of
the people in these prisons do not belong there. This is really
outside the scope of my paper, but something that one has to
keep in mind. There are arbitrary arrests, no judicial review
of arrests, per se, and many miscarriages of justice. Even if
people are guilty, they are sometimes ``guilty'' of something
that we would not recognize as a crime, but rather of a
political or religious offense.
A third problem, is that often there are no trials. This
brings us to the subject of administrative detention, that is
to say, cases handled outside of the criminal justice system,
which I will just touch on briefly.
There is a whole constellation of regimes of administrative
detention. For instance, there is one for handling people
involved in drugs, another one for people involved in
prostitution. Then there is the whole question of people
incarcerated in mental institutions.
The big issue is the so-called labor re-education. Now, the
number of re-education prisoners has fluctuated widely over the
years. There were about 400,000 such prisoners 20 years ago.
Then the authorities seemed to want to reduce the size of
this labor re-education, that is to say, people who were
imprisoned without trial, apparently aiming at about 200,000,
but in recent years it has usually been a little bit above
200,000, maybe 230,000, 260,000, in that general range. People
are held in 280 labor re-education camps, of which 86 are for
drug offenders.
Now, because the courts are meting out fewer intermediate
length sentences and more shorter sentences, this may have the
effect of pushing more people out of the prison system and into
the labor re-education system. Also even though labor re-
education is normally an administrative punishment, meaning
that they do not have to give suspects a trial, but nonetheless
sometimes the courts will send people to labor re-education
rather than to prison.
I think I should perhaps move on and we can come back to
this question of labor re-education. You will probably have
questions. It is quite controversial, what should be done with
it. What should foreign human rights advocates advocate in the
case of labor re-education? I dare say that will come up in the
discussion period.
The better news can be found in five areas. I would just
list them and then I will let you raise questions about
whatever you are
interested in.
The first is that of the seven or eight forms of
administrative detention, two have been eliminated, most
importantly what Mr. Foarde referred to: the detention and
repatriation regime that Sun Zhigang got caught up in. Because
he was an intellectual and college graduate and so forth, when
he died, that case got a great deal of attention. One likes to
think he did not die in vain, because they did eventually, more
or less, eliminate that practice. There had been large numbers
of prisoners held under that regime. I can go into the details
later on. So, we should be thankful for small favors. They have
gotten rid of certain aspects of administrative detention.
Second, the rate of imprisonment. Although I said that the
numbers of prisoners is very large, 2 million, then you have to
ask, well, is that a lot or a little, and it depends upon to
what you compare it. If you compare China to Scandinavia or
Japan, of course, this is a horrendously high rate of
imprisonment.
If you compare it to Russia or, God forbid, the United
States, then all of a sudden it does not look like such a high
rate of imprisonment. In the case of the United States, our
prison population is very close to the prison population of
China in size, but China has a population four or five times
ours. So, if you do the math, you will realize that, compared
to the United States, the size of the prison population in
China is not great.
The third point. I am not too comfortable putting this
under ``good news,'' but sometimes the problem, which is indeed
a very serious problem, of people being imprisoned for their
religious views, political views, or activities, gets somewhat
overstated. Some people are under the impression that this is a
major part of the incarceration system in China, a huge
percentage of prisoners being there for political or religious
reasons.
Actually, it is not a large percentage. It is hard to put a
figure on it because it depends upon how you define political,
how you define religious. But the great majority of the
prisoners in China's prisons are there because the regime
believes that they have committed something that we would all
recognize as a crime. I put it that way because the regime may
believe wrongly, and there are many miscarriages of justice.
The fourth point, is that they have completely changed
their thinking regarding the economics of the prison system. It
used to be they hoped it would make a profit, or at the very
least, that the prison system would be self-supporting, and
they have given up on that idea and step-by-step moved away
from that kind of thinking.
Just last month, they began what one hopes is going to be
the wave of the future. They are trying, in six provincial
level units--two municipalities and four provinces--completely
separating the prison enterprises from the prisons themselves.
Not only that, but the funding of the prisons is all going to
come from the government. None of the funding has to come from
these enterprises. That should mark an improvement, for reasons
that we can talk about.
Finally, I think there is a realization in high places in
China that the system needs to be reformed, and not just
financially. In particular, inmates' living conditions need
further improvement.
A year ago, the Ministry of Justice held a work meeting on
the upgrading of the administration of the prisons and their
re-education regime. It was admitted that ``our efforts to
build a core of gangzhang,''--that is to say, the
administrators and guards in the prison--``have yet to
completely meet the demands of the new situation and new tasks.
The overall quality of the force still needs further
improvement, and they need to constantly strengthen their law
enforcement in a strict, fair, and civilized manner.'' Then
they proceed to lay out an extremely ambitious 3-year program,
and I have attached to my paper an account of that program as
an
appendix.
This, of course, is not going to be easy for them to
implement. One could detect a note of frustration on the part
of Justice Minister Zhang Fusen. He cited on the need to
address ``the sharp struggle in reform and anti-reform, as well
as the struggle between corruption and anti-corruption.'' He
obviously knows that he has a problem.
Thus, improving this vast system is an awesome challenge
and not simply a matter of rewriting laws and regulations. With
the important exception of the problem of administrative
detention, laws and regulations are in place which, in theory,
should provide China with a decent penal system and also a
decent system of administrative detention.
The progress so far has been spotty, with huge variations
from province to province and prison to prison. But experience
demonstrates that, where there is a political will, prison
conditions can be made satisfactory.
Mr. Foarde. Jim, thank you very much. Just to clarify, we
have passed out your paper. There is a distribution table back
in the back, and everybody has got a copy.
Scot, if you please, go ahead.
STATEMENT OF MURRAY SCOT TANNER, SENIOR POLITICAL SCIENTIST,
RAND CORPORATION, ARLINGTON, VA
Mr. Tanner. Mr. Foarde, Mr. Dorman, I would like to begin
today by expressing my sincere thanks to the Members of the
Congressional-Executive Committee on China for honoring me with
the invitation, and also thank the committee staff, in
particular Dr. Susan Roosevelt Weld, for her kind help in
arranging my visit.
I must also note for the record that, since I was last
honored to speak to this Commission a little over a year and a
half ago, I have taken a new position as a senior political
scientist at the Washington offices of RAND Corporation.
My comments today draw upon my longtime study of policing
issues in China and are not part of any project I am currently
undertaking for RAND. My views today are entirely my own and do
not necessarily represent the views of RAND Corporation, its
officials, or any of its many contracting organizations.
My purpose today is to examine the recent wave or renewed
popular and official attention to law enforcement abuses in
China and analyze some of the recent reforms in police
regulations designed to reign in some of these abuses.
I am going to focus in particular on an issue that even
many law enforcement officials concede is pervasive, and that
is the widespread use of torture.
My purpose is not monitoring or exposition of these abuses.
That has been done much better by many courageous, dedicated,
and meticulous individuals and organizations, including several
here today.
And although I am going to be discussing some recent
changes in police regulations designed to deter torture and
also the positive role played by some law enforcement reformers
in China today, listeners should not infer from that any
defense at all of the government's totally inadequate record in
addressing law enforcement abuses.
As I have argued before, any examination of the efforts of
some Chinese to address law enforcement abuses must begin by
confronting the painful distinction between the kinds of
significant
improvements that may be possible within China's current
authoritarian system and more fundamental improvements that are
not probably possible without institutional changes that are
incompatible with the current system.
China, like most authoritarian systems, lacks the
institutions to create self-generating or self-sustaining
monitoring of law enforcement abuses, or to generate effective
political pressure for reform.
The institutions I am talking about, of course, would be
things such as a free and investigative press, civil society,
human rights monitoring groups, professional judges and
prosecutors, elections, and so on.
The party has launched short-term crackdowns on abuses in
the past--1998 was an example--but without these other
fundamental institutional reforms, improvements are very
difficult unless the top leadership keeps up the pressure.
Beginning in late summer, we started seeing the first signs
that another wave of attention to law enforcement abuses,
especially administrative detention of migrants, detention
exceeding time limits, torture, abuse of prisoners, was
emerging within China's popular press, within its official
legal press, and even in the speeches of some senior officials.
So far, this has spawned renewed policy debates over how to
handle these problems, and a few noteworthy changes in
regulations. I would point to four or five significant
political forces that have come together to pressure China's
leadership to address these issues at the present time.
These are, first, leadership succession politics and the
desire of the new Party General Secretary and President Hu
Jintao to find popular issues such as corruption and rule by
law to strengthen his power base and his mass support.
Second, the recent occurrence of several high-profile
shocking cases of law enforcement abuses that acted as focusing
incidents in the Chinese, that is, jiaodian shijian, for these
problems.
Third, the rise of a nascent public opinion pressure on the
regime, in particular via a less restrained and increasingly
competitive and sensationalistic press and Internet, all of
which have raised public consciousness of these focusing
incidents in a manner that we have rarely seen before in China.
Fourth, the tireless lobbying and advocacy of a small
number of reformist legal officials and scholars who, for more
than a decade, have drafted and continually pushed proposals
for stronger disincentives for law enforcement abuses, in
particular, stiffer penalties and tougher rules of evidence.
Fifth, I would say the international forces have always
played a significant role. While it is impossible to say with
any great confidence how much impact sustained international
pressure by international human rights organizations, by the
U.S. Government, or by other countries has had in shaping this
response, we do know that in internal discussions of law
enforcement policy reform, China's international reputation is
frequently invoked as one among many justifications for change.
We should also note that the changes proposed by legal
reformers in China explicitly draw on Western, and in many
cases Warren Court-era U.S. law enforcement reforms.
Readers of China's legal press would probably never have
anticipated this campaign at the beginning of the year. In
early February, the Ministry of Public Security held a rather
self-congratulatory nationwide meeting to launch a 5-year
effort to reduce police violations of law and discipline.
This meeting, however, began by claiming remarkable
improvements that had been made against such abuses in 2002
over 2001, including a claim of a 41.4 percent drop in torture
cases over the preceding year.
By mid-summer, however, it was clear that even official
views of law enforcement discipline were changing quickly In
China, as in most countries, including the United States,
political perceptions of law and order are shaped far more by a
few high-profile, heavily publicized focusing cases than they
are by any official statistical measures of legal trends.
The most famous cases, unquestionably, were the detention
and beating death of Sun Zhigang, as well as the case of a
mother detained by police whose baby starved to death because
of police neglect, written up, I think, brilliantly in an
article by John Pomfret.
Cases that received not only extensive coverage in official
and popular press outlets, but also in the West and, in
particular, on the Chinese Internet. As with the SARS crisis in
the spring, these new electronic media helped fan the nascent
public opinion pressure that the government felt it could not
ignore.
We do also know, however, that there were other cases of
illegal detention and torture that got spotlighted in Chinese
law enforcement internal documents. Although they were not
widely publicized, they appear to have had some impact in the
process.
These focusing cases soon became symbols in China's ongoing
leadership succession process. Before his accession to power
last November, General Secretary and President Hu Jintao had
never made a public priority of legal reform or rule by law. I
say this, having suffered from having read every published
speech the man has ever given, something I do not recommend.
Indeed, when he spoke of legal issues at all, it was often
to endorse strike-hard anti-crime campaigns or to endorse Deng
Zaoping's famous authoritarian dictum that ``stability
overrides
everything.''
Very soon after his accession, however, Hu began making
speeches and organizing seminars for top party leaders on the
importance of law and constitutionalism. These talks contained
few concrete proposals to reform legal institutions, and so far
they have shown no sign of going beyond a very instrumental
strategy of advocating rule by law in order to stabilize and
professionalize the party's ruling position.
Obviously, I have cut too long a presentation for myself.
Let me get to the major points. On July 14, in response to Hu
Jintao's pressure, the Minister of Public Security, Zhou
Yongkang, gave a widely publicized press conference in which he
attacked a number of these abuses.
In response to this pressure, there have been two modest,
but noteworthy, law enforcement policy changes, both of which
draw on policy proposals long advocated by reformist scholars.
In September, the Zhejiang Provincial Public Security
Bureau announced tougher administrative punishments for police
who commit torture, including automatic firing not just for
them, but for their overseeing bosses. Also, if a public
security department has two serious torture cases in a year,
the head of the department is supposed to be fired.
The second noteworthy change was a revision of the
Ministry's regulations on handling administrative cases, the
category of broad cases that include the Sun Zhigang case.
I believe one of the most interesting aspects of this was
that the regulations involved adopting an exclusionary rule for
oral confessions, and perhaps other evidence illegally obtained
by torture.
These were improperly reported in the press as a ban on
torture in China. As the Commission members no doubt know very
well, torture has been illegal under Chinese law for decades.
But this is a step toward bringing police internal regulations
in line with those of courts and procurators to exclude
illegally obtained evidence.
In legal circles, these regulations rekindled a major new
policy debate. Some have portrayed these as a step forward.
Others have criticized them, arguing that these punishments
might be substituted for criminal punishments for torture.
Still others have expressed a fear that these might create
unintended negative side incentives as local police, fearful of
being fired, will step up their pressure to intimidate
witnesses.
I can go into more detail on this later. But I see these as
a modest step forward in the direction toward establishing a
solid, clear exclusionary rule for evidence obtained by
torture.
Prospects and obstacles. Two noteworthy positive points.
One, is the nascent public opinion pressure via the press and
Internet which could gradually become a persistent source of
pressure and criticism on law enforcement abuses.
Another modest source of optimism is that with each
successive wave of attention to these law enforcement abuses,
legal reformers seem to be making gradual progress in the
intellectual battle toward law enforcement professionalism and
the establishment of an exclusionary rule.
Still, there is strong reason for pessimism that the
current wave of leadership attention is going to be sustained.
The letter of Chinese law has long banned torture to extract a
confession, as I pointed out. The problem has always been
getting sustained enforcement of these regulations.
Despite the calls by Hu Jintao for judicial structure
reform and these new regulations, there is no sign yet that
anyone in China's top leadership is presently pushing for the
kind of significant institutional changes that I have argued
would be necessary to create self-sustaining, self-generating
pressure against these abuses.
Consequently, there is reason to fear that, as the
leadership and popular attention to the problem eases, so will
the pressure for
improvement.
Mr. Foarde. Lots of ideas there and a rich trove of
question-producing ideas; the same from Jim Seymour's
presentation.
I am going to let you both catch your breath for about 1
minute while I take care of an administrative matter or two.
Because our Commissioners are, we hope, fast closing in on
the end of the first session of the 108th Congress, we will
probably not have another formal hearing this calendar year. We
will be back in the spring, or probably late winter, to start
our hearing series again.
But we will continue to have these issues roundtables every
couple of weeks through the end of this calendar year, and
picking up again in January. So I do not have an announcement
for you today, but please continue to watch our Web site, and
that is www.cecc.gov.
If you are not already signed up for our Web site, and I
see from the people in the crowd that maybe you are, but if you
are not, you can sign up on the front page of the Web site and
receive our announcements. We try to get them to you at least 2
weeks before the event.
So, we will probably have a roundtable in November and one
in December before the Christmas holidays start before picking
up again after the first of the year.
Let me leave the administrative announcements there and go
now to the question and answer session.
I would open by posing a question or two to Jim Seymour,
please.
One of the things that the Congress is very interested in,
and certainly our Commission members are very interested in, is
the question of re-education through labor and reform through
labor and the relationship between the enterprises that are
staffed by prison laborers and exports anywhere, but
particularly exports to the United States.
As you know well, section 1307, title 19, U.S. Code
prohibits the import of prison labor-made products into the
United States, and this is something that our Commissioners
take seriously.
So I wanted to see if you would spend a minute or two
picking up on a theme that you brought up in your presentation.
That is, I take it from your writings and from what you just
said that at one point the Chinese penal system had it in mind
that it could be a revenue-generating enterprise, generally.
The government has now admitted to itself that that is
basically not possible, and they need to have a budget and
budget for it as a cost item rather than a revenue-generating
item.
In the context of those changes, can you talk a little bit
about your views as to whether exports from prison labor
facilities to anywhere in the world, but particularly the
United States, are a big problem or a small problem? Is there
any way to tell? Your views would be welcome.
Mr. Seymour. Well, as you say, Federal law prohibits the
import of products of prison labor. By the way, it does not
outlaw the
export of the products of prison labor, and the Chinese are
very aware of that. My own impression, though it is difficult
to get statistics on this, is that the export from China of the
products of prison labor go almost entirely to countries
neighboring or very near China: Southeast Asia, and some of the
Central Asian or former Soviet Union countries.
Of course, they deny that any of it comes to the United
States. Every once in a while, a product of prison labor does
get through the net. I do not think they do everything they
could on the Chinese side to prevent that. But because these
products tend to pass through a lot of different hands, or
enterprises, or commercial entities, it is kind of hard to
track.
However, the vast majority of the products of prison labor
are sold within China, so my own view is that, from a human
rights points of view, we should be focusing more on the
conditions in the prisons and the exploitation--whether they
are prisoners are not--of Chinese labor. So, that is my
perspective. Did I miss parts of your question?
Mr. Foarde. Not at all. Very useful.
Let me shift gears a little bit and ask you for your sense
of the percentage of the prison population in China currently
that are people that you would term, I think, people that are
there because everybody recognizes what they did is a crime,
would be a crime anywhere.
Mr. Seymour. By our definition of a crime.
Mr. Foarde. By our definition.
Mr. Seymour. Well, it is hard to put a number on it. I do
not think I should try to do that. First, we do not have enough
information. Second, there is such a huge definitional problem.
I think if you use a more precise term, such as Amnesty
International's term, ``prisoner of conscience,'' then you
might be able to pin this down, but then it would probably be a
rather small number compared to the total prisoner population.
It is certainly not in the hundreds of thousands. It is
probably more than in the thousands, maybe 10,000 or 20,000. I
think it would be generally in that range.
I personally suspect that there is a large category of
prisoners that fall in the gray area of people who are in
prison not because they wrote a pamphlet, nor because they put
on a Falun Gong demonstration, but because somebody stepped on
the toes of some administrator, said the wrong thing or did the
wrong thing, and maybe did, indeed, have some minor infraction
that they could pin on him or her, and then send him or her to
jail for what is actually a different reason from the stated
reason. I think there is a lot of abuse of that sort. You could
call those people political prisoners. If you include that sort
of thing, then of course the figure gets much larger.
If you include people who have engaged in some act of
violence, it would probably be slightly larger, although this
is mainly an issue when you get up into the northwest. But that
is my general take on that.
Mr. Foarde. Thank you. Can you also comment just briefly on
what, in your view, are the best sources of information about
questions like this from your research over the many years?
Mr. Seymour. I am sorry, sources of information?
Mr. Foarde. The best sources of information in China about
prison population, types of offenses, and what people are
incarcerated for, et cetera.
Mr. Seymour. Well, there are a variety of sources. No
single one, in itself, is satisfactory. One can approach it
from a number of different angles. You can, of course, look at
the official national statistics. One can also go province by
province and get a sense of how many people there are in these
different prisons--we know most of them--then add it all up and
see how that comports with the official figures.
But there is a problem with the official figures in that
they leave out a whole lot, so you have to add it back in. So,
what they call the prison population does not include any of
the administrative detention people, for instance. It does not
include any of the people who are detained in jails, pre-trial,
or maybe never will get a trial. Usually such detentions are
just for a matter of days or weeks, but there are cases of
people having been in jail untried, the case unsettled, for
decades. This is not the norm, but it happens. So if you add in
all those cases, and it involves a lot of guesswork, then it is
at least a third higher than your starting official
``prisoner'' figure.
Mr. Foarde. Very useful. Thank you. I am out of time, so I
am going to hand the microphone over to Dave Dorman.
Dave.
Mr. Dorman. Thanks, John. And thanks to both of you for
taking the time today to testify. What you have said so far has
been very useful.
I have had an opportunity to scan through your written
statement Professor Seymour, and calling it comprehensive is an
understatement. I think it will be a very valuable addition to
the record, so thank you for that.
One thing you both may have noticed in this year's annual
report by the Commission, and this is a question for you
Professor Seymour, is that the Commission commented positively
on China's
decision to eliminate its frequently repressive custody and
repatriation regulations and replaced them with non-coercive
measures.
I was interested in your testimony, and made a point of
writing down your statement that these regulations had ``more
or less'' been eliminated in China.
As a Commission, to point out to the Chinese Government
that here is a move that we are pleased with, and then to hear
that these regulations have only been ``more or less''
eliminated, concerns me.
Could you expand on your comment, please? Thank you.
Mr. Seymour. Well, the words ``more or less'' just were to
flag the fact that this is rather recent, and it is too soon to
say what is happening. In general, this regime used to be
administered jointly by the Civil Affairs Bureau and the Public
Security Bureau, or the police. Supposedly now the police are
out of it, and it is just the Civil Affairs Bureau, and it is
supposed to be kind of a humanitarian way to take care of these
migrants. But this happened so
recently that it is hard to access. But I have asked around to
people who are in a position to know, and they seem to think
that it is happening, that people are not forcibly detained any
more simply because they were in a city where they did not have
the proper
papers to be in that city. The emphasis is more on helping
those people who are destitute or in trouble, and it is out of
the penal system.
Now, that is the initial feedback that I get. But we have
to wait. Ask me a year from now and I will have a much better
sense of whether it really happened.
Mr. Dorman. Do you think that the Commission was premature
in identifying this as a positive development?
Mr. Seymour. No. I believe that certainly it is a step
forward, no question about that. Just what happens to these
people, it is just too early to say. But so far, the news is
good. It appears that migrants are not being dragged off the
street. We have not heard of any Sun Zhigang-like cases since
the Sun Zhigang case.
Mr. Dorman. Good. Thank you very much.
Dr. Tanner, you commented on the impact the current
leadership transition in China may or may not have on the
prison system in China. Is it your feeling that, without
sustained, high-level interest by the PRC leadership, any
systemic change in the system is possible? Both of you
mentioned variations in the prison system from province to
province, and from locality to locality, but in terms of the
overall system, is there any possibility of change without
sustained leadership pressure?
Mr. Tanner. I think, as I tried to point out in here, that
significant improvement within the current system is just not
possible without a sustained push from high-level leaders. And
not just the national level leaders.
One of the things I have been trying to tell people for a
long time, is that we in the West greatly over-estimate how
centralized the Chinese law enforcement system is. Unless there
is pressure not only from national level leaders, but also from
provincial level party and government leaders, this significant
improvement is not likely to occur.
Most of that comes down to just the difficulties of
monitoring law enforcement behavior. We know how difficult this
is in our own system or any other system. There is just
something in the nature of policing. It requires speed, it
requires a certain irreducible amount of secrecy, access to
violence. These are all things that are very difficult to
monitor from the outside, and doubly difficult in a Leninist
system. So, yes. Pressure from the top on a sustained basis is
necessary.
Now, that said, there are reformers in the criminal justice
system and also in China's legal universities, and who have my
undying admiration, because these people just hammer, and
hammer, and hammer away at this stuff to try and make small
changes. And I am not going to deny that they do make a certain
amount of progress.
In my longer statement, you will see a list of the long
number of regulations that have been issued in the last decade,
trying to find ways to exclude as evidence confessions obtained
by torture. I have no evidence that top central party officials
were very heavily involved in authorizing or drafting that sort
of thing.
My very strong sense, from talking with Chinese law
enforcement officials and scholars, is that one of the great
frustrations for them is that they cannot get senior leaders to
pay attention to anything other than the economy.
Mr. Dorman. Thank you very much.
Mr. Foarde. Let us pass the questioning over to Susan Weld,
the general counsel of the Commission.
Susan.
Ms. Weld. Thanks a lot. I guess my first question maybe can
be answered quickly. I am interested in that new, centrally
controlled prison in Beijing. Do you see it as possibly leading
to changes in the prison system as a whole or a place for pilot
programs in prison reform, any good efforts of that kind? If
you could both answer that question, I would be grateful.
Mr. Seymour. Well, I did not study that particular prison.
I think, in general, the centrally managed prisons are less
inhumane places than many of the provincial prisons. We know
that they have certain prisons with high standards, and they
get held up as models that others are supposed to emulate.
But that is not only true of the centrally administered
prisons, this is also true of, for instance, Shangdong, where
the prison system is considered better, and other provinces are
urged to emulate that.
It is certainly a good sign that the center is paying
attention and trying to do something somewhere, and let us hope
that others follow the example.
Mr. Tanner. I cannot claim to have studied this particular
reform in any detail. Let me just say a couple of quick,
general things about that, though.
Two of the biggest problems in professionalizing law
enforcement in China have to do with the localization of law
enforcement. One of them is control of the type of personnel
that get recruited to the system, which is frequently tightly
controlled by local officials and frequently involves properly
trained law enforcement people, by Chinese standards, being
passed over for the brother-in-law of the mayor.
So, centralization, in that respect, could improve the
quality of personnel that are recruited to it. The other
problem is the budgetary issue. Since most law enforcement is
financed locally in China, it means that provinces tend to
provide as good law enforcement as they care to afford.
That means that the level of professionalization can vary
enormously from place to place. As hard as this is to believe,
I cannot tell you how many Chinese legal scholars I have had
tell me that the best, most professional law enforcement in
China is in Beijing.
Ms. Weld. Thanks a lot.
Mr. Foarde. Let me pass the questioning over now to our
friend and colleague, Steve Marshall. Steve works on Tibet and
on prisoner data base issues for us and has some experience in
following prisoner cases.
Steve.
Mr. Marshall. First, let me say that I have really enjoyed
your written testimony and what you have had to say. There is a
great deal of detail here, and we will all look at it very
closely.
I am thinking of our Administration and the effort,
beginning with President Clinton, to suggest that China should
review the sentences of people convicted of counterrevolution
before 1997 and propose their early releases or commutation of
sentences, on the basis that this is now a defunct crime.
Some people point out that there is a problem with that,
because basically with respect to the new CL and CPL, and then
the 1999 constitutional amendment, that ``counterrevolution''
was just neatly changed into ``endangering State security.''
Based on these two premises, what do you gentlemen think?
Is this likely to be a productive approach? Is it a good
approach on principle, even if it does not necessarily yield
results? Professor Seymour, do you want to start?
Mr. Seymour. Well, certainly everything helps that calls
attention to the fact that people who were imprisoned under an
old regime that is supposed to be no longer in effect, just for
the world to remember and to keep reminding the Chinese
authorities that you are responsible for these people who are
in prison, in many cases, non-violent people.
Of course, there was a whole range, or a half a dozen
different types of counterrevolutionary crime, and one might
want to distinguish among them. But probably one should focus
on individual cases.
A problem with the suggested approach is that they could
release all the people who are presently in jail as
counterrevolutionaries, and it would just be the tip of the
iceberg in terms of the total number of people whom we would
consider political prisoners, or people imprisoned because of
their beliefs or religious activities.
So, I think that is a useful approach, but I would not want
it to divert us from the larger issue, that every non-violent
person in prison because of their beliefs, political
activities, should be released, regardless of the label that
was placed on them at their trial, if they had a trial.
Mr. Tanner. I would simply agree with Dr. Seymour's very
thoughtful comments about that. But I think it is a bit
artificial to overdraw the distinction between the old crime of
counter-revolutionary offenses and endangering State security,
leaking State secrets, the whole series of equally ill-defined
crimes under Chinese law that were put in their place.
We also have to consider whether this is the most effective
place to use our leverage, and that is all I care to say on
that, except, of course, to stress that these are my own
personal views.
Mr. Marshall. Thank you.
Mr. Foarde. You have got time for a follow-up.
Mr. Marshall. I think I will pass the mic right now,
because the next question I have is going to take every bit of
5 minutes.
Mr. Foarde. Then let us give Keith Hand a chance to ask a
question or two. Keith is a senior counsel and looks at
national level rule of law issues for us.
Keith.
Mr. Hand. I was wondering if you might comment on the
status of legal challenges to re-education through labor and
administrative detention, generally. We understand that part of
the impetus for the repeal of the custody and repatriation
regulations was a scholar petition to the National People's
Congress Standing Committee that challenged the legality of
those regulations. Is there anything similar under way with
respect to re-education through labor or other forms of
administrative detention?
Mr. Seymour. Well, this is becoming somewhat more common.
People can appeal a verdict, or there also is another approach
under the administrative litigation law that can be done. It is
becoming doable. I do not say that it is the usual case, but
only that the procedures are improving.
One hopes that that is the wave of the future. Certainly,
in criminal trials, there has always been at least a
theoretical possibility of an appeal, although usually the
appeal is rejected. Now it is becoming much more common in the
administrative detention cases that it is possible to appeal.
Along with that, now, people have, in administrative cases,
a theoretical right to a lawyer if they can afford it. They are
also entitled to a public hearing. So, all of this lays the
basis for appeals if they wanted to do it. But I am not aware
that it has been studied as to how often or what percentage of
the cases get appealed, and how many of those appeals are
successful.
Mr. Tanner. I prefer to see this as one of the latest steps
in a long process, almost a reform cat-and-mouse game that is
being played by people who want to tighten up the Chinese legal
system to try to narrow--increasingly through steps, through
changes, through redefinitions--the number of actions for which
people can be incarcerated without the case coming into court,
which used to be just an enormous percentage of the number of
cases.
I see this as the latest step forward in that line going
all the way back to getting rid of Shourong shencha, or
``shelter for investigation,'' and things like that. This, and
these administrative appeals, and changing the handling of
these regulations, I think, are the latest step forward in
this.
Unfortunately, what I would predict, based on what happened
with shelter and investigation, is that local police officials
will probably try to find additional pretexts within the
available regulations to incarcerate people under other means,
and then reformers will try and find some way of modeling that
as well.
Mr. Seymour. Could I just add that allowing appeals under
the administrative detention cases only began this year, so it
is really too early to answer that question.
Mr. Foarde. Very useful.
Let me pass the questioning on now to Carl Minzner, who is
a senior counsel looking at grassroots level rule of law
issues.
Carl.
Mr. Minzner. Thank you very much for coming here today. I
want to just ask two quick questions, and one is perhaps a
little more pointed than the other. And you can either both
respond to one or the other, or maybe of you will respond to
one, the other one will respond to the other.
The first question I want to ask is something just to
follow-up on a question that Dr. Weld had asked. Both of you
mentioned that the Chinese Ministry of Justice, the Chinese
prison systems, are decentralized. I think Professor Seymour
mentioned it in his written testimony. If I heard correctly,
Dr. Tanner, you mentioned that in your spoken testimony. Both
of you also characterized the provincial or the local
detentions as perhaps more inhumane than, for example, the
Beijing, or national, level.
Do you think that the U.S. Government or even U.S. aid
agencies could play a useful role in improving the conditions
of Chinese prisons by helping the central government to
nationalize or control the prison system? So, centralized
control of the prison system--that is the first question.
The second question is, as Mr. Foarde mentioned, that our
Commissioners are very interested in the prison labor system in
China. The United States has prison labor as well. Could you
simply compare and contrast the prison labor systems in the two
countries?
Mr. Tanner. I am going to decline on the second for
ignorance of the American system. An awful lot of people in the
Chinese criminal justice system see the decentralization of the
system as one of the major sources of problems, the lack of
professionalism, the lack of control, the difficulties of
getting laws actually implemented or enforced the way they want
them to.
I think they have a point. I also, however, sometimes think
that they overstate this case. The Soviet system was a good
deal more centralized than the Chinese system. I do not think
we would draw from that the conclusion that it was more humane
or professional.
Nevertheless, I do think that what you have asked is kind
of the cutting-edge question for the most difficult areas of
U.S. legal engagement with China, because, in the short term,
professionalization of the system, tightening up of standards
is probably one of the best things we can accomplish under the
current Chinese system. It also, unfortunately, creates a
massive dilemma--we run the risk of strengthening a system that
none of us cares for at all.
I suggested, in the most cautious language the last time
that I was here, that we might consider increased contacts with
the Chinese procuratorial organs, because at least as far as I
can tell, that seems to be one of the strongest locations
within the system for this professionalizing, centralizing, and
standards-raising school of thought, but that this has to be
done in the most cautious way to make sure that we minimize the
degree to which we might inadvertently be simply strengthening
the existence of a system that we do not care for.
Mr. Seymour. I would say that it is best to keep the focus
on human rights abuses and urge the Chinese authorities to end
those abuses, but not tell them exactly how to do it. I mean,
this is a problem. They know they have a problem and they have
to solve it.
But for us to suggest specific ways, ``you need to be more
centralized,'' or something like that, is kind of interfering
in their affairs, and they are not going to listen anyway. So,
I think that we should not tell them exactly how to solve these
problems. We have just got to tell them they have got to solve
this problem.
In many ways, we look with favor on China becoming a more
decentralized place because then it becomes somewhat more
pluralistic. Do we really want to push for more power and more
authority in Beijing and less authority in the localities? That
is a road that might look attractive in the particular case of
the prison system because we see so many abuses in this or that
province where they just have an awful system, and why does
Beijing not move in and straighten it out? Well, of course,
they should do what they have to do to straighten out those
problems, but to just in general ask for a more centralized
system, I would be cautious about going down that road.
Mr. Foarde. Let me continue now with a question to both of
you. What is the one thing that the Chinese government could do
at the national, provincial, and local level to improve prison
conditions and bring them up to international standards? One
policy change or one specific thing. What would you recommend?
Mr. Seymour. I would say that, in general, it is a matter
of changing the political culture. At every level, people need
to be told about the dignity of the individual and that people
have legal rights, and people have rights under international
human rights conventions, and specifically what these rights
are and the limitations on authority. If you would only let me
do one thing, then I am going to make it a big thing.
I would like to just have the government, which they are
obligated to do under various international human rights
conventions, promote the idea of human rights and educate
people as to what their rights are, and educate the people
administering the prisons as to the limitations on their
authority and power.
Mr. Tanner. If I were going to choose one, I think I would
probably focus on weakening the control that local Communist
Party committees have at every level over the whole package of
law enforcement organs in China. Like a Soviet system, the
Chinese legal system, on paper, has an enormous number of
overlapping, cross-cutting oversight and monitoring and
checking organizations.
A police department has a discipline inspection committee,
it is a political affairs department, it has personnel, it has
auditing, it has police oversight, and so on, and so forth.
Outside, there is the procuracy, there is the courts, all of
these other things.
These are supposed to be the organs that are supposed to
cross-check and at least make sure that some semblance of
procedure is actually followed. The problem is that at every
level of this system, every one of these strings leads back to
the Political Legal Committee of the local Party and the same
person ends up overseeing all of these things. That greatly
undermines the capacity of these organizations to begin to even
play the kind of just basic bureaucratic, competitive cross-
checking that would be at least a step forward in this system.
So, I guess I would come back to getting rid of the old Party
political/legal system of committees.
Mr. Foarde. Very useful. Thank you.
I will pass the microphone back to Dave Dorman for a
question.
Dave.
Mr. Dorman. Just a very short question for each of you. I
will start with you, Professor Seymour.
As a simple political scientist on a commission that is
made up mainly of lawyers, they have the very difficult task of
trying to
explain to me the intricacies of things like Chinese criminal
procedure law. And I have to admit that I often have trouble
understanding the precise definition of illegal or unlawful
detention in China. There seem to be many exceptions and many
loopholes. Help us understand how the average Chinese citizen
views their system. How difficult is it for someone to
determine whether they are legally or illegally detained?
Mr. Seymour. Well, one can kind of break it down this way.
There are certain laws that say under what circumstances you
detain somebody. Then the formal arrest comes later.
But probably the larger issue is the sort of non-legal
detention. They can detain you pretty much for any reason they
want to. This is the underlying problem. I do not think anybody
has a clear idea, because they do not make it that clear, as to
what is legal and what is illegal.
There are certain time limits in which you are supposed to
be let go, depending upon what regime you are taken in under.
You are supposed to be let go at the end of a certain number of
days. Of course, there are legal procedures or legal provisions
when it comes to the formal arrest.
Then it becomes a little more something that we would
recognize within the regime of law. I have no expertise in this
area because I study what happens after they are imprisoned or
sent to one of the non-prison incarceration regimes. But that
is my general impression. You really put your finger on an
important problem and it is really something they need to work
on.
Mr. Dorman. Is this a one question round?
Mr. Foarde. No. Please, go ahead.
Mr. Dorman. Dr. Tanner, you made a very interesting and
useful point, and I hope you can clarify it for us further. You
mentioned the impact that the press and the Internet is having
on some legal cases, and this in turn, on the legal system.
Dr. Tanner, I think you used the words ``focus cases''
``focal cases.'' What characterizes these cases? In other
words, if each of these has had a significant positive impact
on the system as a whole, what is it about these small number
of cases that has led them to have such an impact on the
system? Why do we not see more? How can we encourage more?
Mr. Tanner. Well, first of all, in reference to your
previous question, I want to tell you that you should not let
the legal scholars get you down, that, as we all know, the
superior degree is political science.
The Chinese propaganda system does not have anywhere near
the level of control over the press that it did when I first
went to that country in 1984. The capacity of even Communist
Party-controlled papers or Web sites to publish these cases is
really remarkable compared to what it used to be.
The need for these papers to make money drives them. I
deliberately chose the word ``sensationalistic'' in my oral
presentation to describe this. In an odd way, this is one of
the interesting things that drives this. The write-ups you get
on some of these cases are simply gut-wrenching, in many cases,
the degree of detail they will go into, perhaps literally true,
perhaps not. But these things get recirculated very quickly. I
ran a quick Chinese Web site check on Sun Zhigang's name last
week and was astonished at the number of times that the same
couple of stories have been reprinted, and reprinted, and re-
posted to other sites, including several official government
sites.
We do not know yet exactly the politics of how that
translates into putting pressure on legal officials. But on one
of the points I left out of my oral presentation, the Vice
Minister of Public Security, Bai Jingfu, in a public press
conference shortly after these regulations were changed, was
extremely frank about what happened after the Sun Zhigang case
got out. He said, ``We started getting complaints from all over
Guangdong Province. We started getting complaints even from
within Public Security departments about the way this case had
been handled.''
I do not pretend to know any better than others why one
case draws more public attention that it does in China any more
than I understand why--I am not going to use a particular name,
but we can all think of a half dozen legal cases that have
focused attention in America in the last 5 to 10 years. These
end up being moral object lessons in what is wrong with the
system.
Unfortunately, one little thing that bothered me a little
bit in doing some of my research for this. This can work in the
other direction. One of the other cases that is being widely
publicized on the Chinese Internet these days is that of--I do
not recall the name.
Maybe you know, Dr. Seymour--a mafiosi, if you will, from
northeastern China who apparently was able to successfully use
an exclusionary rule as a defense in court and get a conviction
turned back. These Chinese articles writing about this over and
over again made reference to questions such as, ``Is our
country going to become like the cases of Aiji Xiqusan,'' which
is, of course, the Chinese transliteration of O.J. Simpson. Is
this going to be a case where correct evidence against a man
who is clearly guilty will be thrown out on a legal
technicality?
So, this process can cut both ways. But the ability of
these individual cases to galvanize public opinion is something
that we really have to pay more attention to. But as for why
some of them gather the attention of public officials more than
others, I cannot really say.
Mr. Seymour. Could I add a comment to that? That is, we
should not think that suddenly these cases are getting a lot of
attention in the media, whereas before they did not. It is a
little different from that.
There was a lot published 10 or 15 years ago about
horrendous cases of abusive behavior of people administering
the justice system and awful things going on in the prisons,
but they tended to be in a kind of narrow slice of what you
might call the law press. That is, publications like Fazhi
Ribao that tended to focus on, and just be of interest to,
people who are interested in this sort of thing within the
community of lawyers, judges, and people who are just following
legal issues.
Now, so much of it is getting into the popular press and on
the Internet. That probably has more clout. You would think
that people would have had to pay attention to the legal press,
but this seems to be a social phenomenon that is having some
impact.
Mr. Foarde. Very useful. Thank you.
Let us pass the questioning on to Susan Weld again for
another question, please.
Ms. Weld. Thanks, John.
I am interested in--was it John who asked you--what was the
single thing that you would like to have done if you could have
something done? Jim said that the priority issue should be to
teach the culture of human rights. He was probably referring to
the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights
[ICCPR]. Scot, you also had a top-down solution. What was that?
Mr. Tanner. My solution was to loosen the Party committee
control over all of the legal organs within one area.
Ms. Weld. That is less of a top-down idea. But what I see
as the most useful thing is the culture of human rights, not in
the sense that the state is teaching others how to respect
them, but instead educates the ordinary people that they have
these rights and that there are tools to use, mechanisms to go
through to enforce them.
Several articles in the press recently have talked about
prisoners' rights. A scholar we were having lunch with talked
about legal assistance centers in the prisons. I would love to
think that could be an answer to this in a bottom-up way.
Can you tell me your assessment of whether that is likely?
Is that a hope which is based in any sense on a good
foundation?
Mr. Tanner. Well, it is likely and it is something that is
going on quite a bit, and not just on legal issues. This has
become quite the thing now. If you find that a local party
official or a local government official is wronging you, it is
increasingly easy--this commission knows that it used to be
extremely difficult to even find the text of laws in China--now
to find the text of regulations.
And, as several of my colleagues have written in other
ways, one of the major sources of protest in this country
occurs when people get a hold of the regulations and just go to
the officials and wave them in front of them. ``Here is the
directive from Beijing. Where do you get off disobeying
Beijing's law? '' That is a very powerful and hopeful sign for
change in that system, this persistent, lower level pressure to
actually force local officials to take the law seriously.
Mr. Seymour. I think that we may be getting a false
impression that we were thinking top-down, because it was kind
of inherent in the way the question was asked, what one thing
can China do. Well, China only has one government at the top.
But this is something that has to permeate society and it
will not just be top-down, obviously. I mean, the Internet can
play a role. I would hope that every local schoolteacher would
teach these things, and every student, by the time he or she
gets out of grade school, would know about the Universal
Declaration of Human Rights and some of the international human
rights covenants. If you get arrested, you have a right to do
this, and a right not to do that, and a right to a lawyer, and
so forth. Americans pick this up from watching television
programs and that sort of thing. We all know about our Miranda
rights.
So, in China, just the way China is, probably the easiest
way to do it would be to publish it on the front page of
People's Daily. I do not know, does anybody read People's Daily
any more? I am not sure. Of course, there are local newspapers
and they can promote this. So, you are absolutely right, it
cannot be top down. It has to happen at all levels.
Ms. Weld. What about these legal assistance centers and the
prisons. Does that seem to you like a realistic thing? Because,
otherwise, if there is not a legal assistance center there, the
prisoners themselves have no way to assert their rights against
whatever abuse is being visited on them. So, do you think that
is likely? I just want to know whether you think there are such
possibilities from your experience.
Mr. Tanner. I cannot speak specifically to the legal
assistance centers. I will say that previous similar
experiments have not worked out well, as far as I know. A
number of years ago, an experiment was tried to put
representatives of a local prosecutor's offices in prisons to
give prisoners a chance to discuss things that were wrong with
their cases. This was proposed also as a way of dealing with
people who were incarcerated through tortured confessions. I
have yet to see any evidence that this has resulted in any
improvement in their situation. I cannot recall ever hearing of
one prisoner that got released as a result of that. I can hope
the legal assistance centers are more successful, but I am
dubious.
Mr. Seymour. I would say the underlying problem is that
there are very few well-trained lawyers in China, compared to
the need. So, even though there is a theoretical right for
people who are going to be tried to have a lawyer, of course,
they usually get access to the lawyer too late.
The lawyer may not be qualified. The good lawyers tend to
go into commercial law and work for companies because you can
make a living there. You really cannot make a living being a
defender of people accused of crimes. Certainly, defending
criminal suspects is somewhat risky.
You hear of lawyers who try to defend alleged criminals. I
guess in China we drop the term ``alleged,'' because they are
just considered criminals. So, sometimes lawyers get beaten up
for defending these people whom the police are not particularly
interested in having defended. Of course, if it is a political
case, it is very hard to get a lawyer to defend a defendant.
They may have to be brought in from another city.
I was recently talking to Han Dongfang, the labor activist.
He would say, ``Well, one of our labor organizers gets
arrested. If they find somebody who is willing to defend them,
probably,'' Han Dongfang said to me, ``The lawyer knows less
about the law than I do.'' So, they are just not qualified and
maybe they do not have the guts--and who among us would--to
defend these sensitive cases.
Mr. Foarde. Our colleague, Steve Marshall, who has been
very patient, has had a good question keyed up for about a half
hour, now. So you may proceed with your question.
Mr. Marshall. Well, actually I have got more than one, so I
have to make up my mind.
I would like to look at a comment on page 13 of Professor
Seymour's testimony. You mentioned that as many as 40 percent
of the political prisoners could be Mongols, Uyghurs, and
Tibetans. You were commenting about the high incidence of State
security convictions for these groups. This is very
disproportionate, of course, to their population.
I wonder if this conspicuous disproportionality would also
apply to something like torture. In your studies, and I am not
talking about just political prisoners, is the police system in
areas like Inner Mongolia, the Tibetan autonomous areas, or
Xinjiang, arresting more indigenous peoples there for various
crimes, including politically oriented crimes? Are they more
likely to be tortured than people in other parts of China?
Mr. Seymour. Well, that comparative question, I do not
think I can answer. Let me just put it this way. It would not
surprise me at all if the ethnic minority people imprisoned for
political reasons were more subject to torture.
Also, perhaps because I am talking about the prisons and we
should not just talk about torture in the usual sense, but
include neglect, people who have health problems that do not
get addressed, all of these things, one reads of case after
case.
Actually, in hearings of this sort I like to humanize it by
mentioning one individual. So, if I may, in response to your
question, mention a gentleman named Hada in Inner Mongolia. Mr.
Hada had a bookstore in Hohhot and was arrested a few years ago
and given a 15-year sentence, and is reported to be in terrible
condition and subject to, shall we say, physical abuse. So,
this is a case that very much fits the category of prisoners
that you are raising.
One knows anecdotally of so many cases of ethnic minority
prisoners, especially politically active ethnic minority
prisoners, who have been subject to physical abuse in prison,
that one has the impression that, unfortunately, the answer to
your question is ``Yes.'' But data is a little hard to come by.
Mr. Tanner. Mr. Marshall, I am glad you asked the question.
It is a question that I have tried very hard over the years to
find any reliable evidence for one way or the other.
Any time that I have looked at data or characterizations or
anything like that, I have never been able to find anything
that in any conclusive way suggested one way or another that
there was a higher incidence of torture of ethnic minority
prisoners than there is of Han Chinese prisoners.
I do not rule it out. This is just one of these cases where
we have to say, very frankly, that we do not have solid enough
evidence to say one way or the other. I can say that I have
discovered one thing that disturbs me a little bit and makes me
suspicious, which is that in case books on torture, where cases
of torture by police are being discussed in Chinese legal texts
and analyzed, that the torture of ethnic minority prisoners
seems to be systematically under-represented and under-
reported, that these books tend to be loath to mention victims
who are ethnic minorities. You used the standard ``compared to
their percentage of the population,'' and they are well below
the percentage of the population. That makes me think that
something special is going on here in the systematic under-
reporting of it.
The other thing that is worth considering is that some of
the crimes for which people in ethnic minority areas are picked
up--how to put this? The same action in a Han area might be
defined in one way and might be defined differently in another.
The one that immediately comes to mind is that when the
police count incidents of unrest in China, these are referred
to as incidents of a mass nature, sheng ti xing shijian, that
of course is not necessarily the case for when protests, or
riots, or a mass demonstration occurs in Xinjiang or Tibet.
That is a riot, that is separatism, that is terrorism. Other
words are used for that. This is making a logical jump, but
that sets these people up for a different and much harsher
standard of treatment in the law.
So, I would say those two things that lead me to suspect
that there may be some evidence here, but I have to underscore
I have tried very hard to find any solid evidence for this and
have never been able to locate it.
Mr. Marshall. Thank you very much.
Mr. Foarde. We have reached the magic hour of 3, despite
what the clock behind me says. And we do have a responsibility
to give up the room. So, unfortunately, we are going to have to
leave our discussion there for today.
But on behalf of Congressman Jim Leach and Senator Chuck
Hagel and the other Members of the Congressional-Executive
Commission on China, thanks to Jim Seymour and to Scot Tanner
for coming to share your expertise with us this afternoon.
Thanks to everyone in the room for staying. I think it has
gotten progressively colder in here over the last 40 minutes or
so, and you are all troopers. I appreciate your coming.
Please watch the Web site and your e-mail for an
announcement on our next issues roundtable. With that, we will
bring this one to a close. Thanks very much, and good
afternoon.
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