[Senate Hearing 107-710]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]



                                                        S. Hrg. 107-710

                  MARKUP OF PROCUREMENT, TRAINING AND 

                 COUNSELING, DROUGHT RELIEF, AND OTHER 

                       SMALL BUSINESS LEGISLATION

=======================================================================

                                 MARKUP

                               BEFORE THE

            COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP
                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                      ONE HUNDRED SEVENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                             JULY 24, 2002

                               __________

    Printed for the Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneurship


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            COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP

        .........................................................

                      ONE HUNDRED SEVENTH CONGRESS

                              ----------                              
                 JOHN F. KERRY, Massachusetts, Chairman
CARL LEVIN, Michigan                 CHRISTOPHER S. BOND, Missouri
TOM HARKIN, Iowa                     CONRAD BURNS, Montana
JOSEPH I. LIEBERMAN, Connecticut     ROBERT F. BENNETT, Utah
PAUL D. WELLSTONE, Minnesota         OLYMPIA J. SNOWE, Maine
MAX CLELAND, Georgia                 MICHAEL ENZI, Wyoming
MARY LANDRIEU, Louisiana             PETER G. FITZGERALD, Illinois
JOHN EDWARDS, North Carolina         MIKE CRAPO, Idaho
MARIA CANTWELL, Washington           GEORGE ALLEN, Virginia
JEAN CARNAHAN, Missouri              JOHN ENSIGN, Nevada
    Patricia R. Forbes, Democratic Staff Director and Chief Counsel
               Emilia DiSanto, Republican Staff Director
               Paul H. Cooksey, Republican Chief Counsel


                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                           Opening Statements

                                                                   Page

Kerry, The Honorable John F., Chairman, Committee on Small 
  Business and Entrepreneurship, and a United States Senator from 
  Massachussetts.................................................     1
Bond, The Honorable Christopher S., Ranking Member, Committee on 
  Small Business and Entrepreneurship, and a United States 
  Senator from Missouri..........................................     3
Cleland, The Honorable Max, a United States Senator from Georgia.     8

          Alphabetical Listing and Appendix Material Submitted

Anderson, Cathy, assistant general manager, Lake Marion Resort 
  and Marina, Santee, SC, letter.................................    92
Atkins, Butch, Atkins Boat Landing, Monks Corner, SC, letter.....    94
Black, Ed, president and CEO, Computer & Communications Industry 
  Association, Washington, D.C., letter..........................    71
Brady, The Honorable Robert, a United States Congressman from 
  Pennsylvania, excerpts from Entrepreneurship Education: Current 
  Developments, Future Directions................................    19
Burch, Leonard, chairman, Southern Ute Indian Tribe, Ignacio, CO, 
  letter.........................................................    30
Cleland, The Honorable Max, a United States Senator from Georgia
    Prepared statement...........................................     8
    Letter to the Honorable John F. Kerry........................    52
    Letter to Members of the Senate..............................    58
Denlinger, Stephen, CEO, Latin American Management Association, 
  Washington, D.C.
    Letter in support of S. 1994.................................    50
    Letter in support of S. 2753.................................    62
Dorr, Tom, director, Western Washington University Small Business 
  Development Center, Bellingham, WA, letter.....................    34
Easley, The Honorable Michael, governor of the State of North 
  Carolina, Raleigh, NC, letter..................................    74
Guinn, The Honorable Kenny, governor of the State of Nevada, 
  Carson City, NV, letter........................................    76
Hall, Tex, president, National Congress of American Indians, 
  Washington, D.C., letter.......................................    32
Hodges, The Honorable Jim, governor of the State of South 
  Carolina, Columbia, SC, letter.................................    82
Homer, Pete, president and CEO, National Indian Business 
  Association, Washington, D.C., letter..........................    31
Hudson, Lane, policy analyst, Office of the Governor, State of 
  South Carolina, Columbia, SC, economic impact surveys..........    84
Johnson, The Honorable Tim, a United States Senator from South 
  Dakota, letter.................................................    29
Keppeler, H.K. Bruss, attorney at law, Honolulu, HI, Comments for 
  the Record.....................................................    46
Kerry, The Honorable John F.
    Opening statement............................................     1
    Letter to Members of the Senate..............................    58
    Letter to the President of the United States.................    98
    S. 2466 summary and text.....................................   102
    S. 1994 summary, text, and amendment.........................   111
    S. 2753 summary, text, and amendment.........................   125
    S. 2734 summary, text, and amendments........................   161
    S. 2483 summary and text.....................................   171
    S. 2335 summary, text, and amendments........................   184
    H.R. 2666 summary and text...................................   222
Kropf, Dennis, Lanes Shopping Center, Manning, SC, letter........    97
McCracken, Todd, president, National Small Business United, 
  Washington, D.C.
    Letter in support of S. 2483.................................    55
    Letter in support of S. 2753.................................    68
    Letter in support of S. 2734.................................   100
Mleynek, Darryl, State director, Hawaii, Small Business 
  Development Center Network, Hilo, HI, Comments for the Record..    46
Neese, Terry, president, Kasoff, Barbara, vice president, Women 
  Impacting Public Policy, Oklahoma City, OK, letter.............    72
Nicolai, Matthew, president and CEO, Calista Corporation, 
  Anchorage, AK, Comments for the Record.........................    43
Robbins, Kenneth, president, National Center for American Indian 
  Enterprise Development, Mesa, AZ, Comments for the Record......    37
Patton, The Honorable Paul, governor of the State of Kentucky, 
  Frankfort, KY, letter..........................................    78
Sandefur, John, State director, Alabama Small Business 
  Consortium, Birmingham, AL, letter.............................    56
Sweeney, The Honorable John, a United Sates Congressman from New 
  York, letter...................................................    53
Turpin, James, director of government relations, American 
  Subcontractors Association, Inc., Alexandria, VA, letter.......    67
Wade, Thomas, Omni Maring Electronics, North Charleston, SC, 
  letter.........................................................    93
Wallace, Robert, executive director, Veterans of Foreign Wars of 
  the United States, Washington, D.C., letter....................    69
Weiss, Norman, Blacks Landing, LLC, Cross, SC, letter............    95
Wilfong, Henry, president, National Association of Small 
  Disadvantaged Businesses, Silver Spring, MD
    Letter in support of S. 1994.................................    49
    Comments for the Record......................................    63
Wilson, Don, president, Association of Small Business Development 
  Centers, Washington, D.C., letter..............................    54
Wilhite, Donald, director, Institute of Agriculture and Natural 
  Resources, School of Natural Resource Sciences, University of 
  Nebraska at Lincoln, Lincoln, NE, letter.......................    80
Women Impacting Public Policy, Oklahoma City, OK, Comments for 
  the Record.....................................................    60

 
                  MARKUP OF PROCUREMENT, TRAINING AND 
                    COUNSELING, DROUGHT RELIEF, AND 
                    OTHER SMALL BUSINESS LEGISLATION

                              ----------                              


                        WEDNESDAY, JULY 24, 2002

                              United States Senate,
          Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneurship,
                                                   Washington, D.C.
    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:03 a.m., in 
room SR-428A, Russell Senate Office Building, The Honorable 
John F. Kerry (Chairman of the Committee) presiding.
    Present: Senators Kerry, Levin, Lieberman, Wellstone, 
Cleland, Landrieu, Edwards, Cantwell, Carnahan, Bond, Burns, 
Bennett, Snowe, Enzi, Crapo, Allen, and Ensign.

  OPENING STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE JOHN F. KERRY, CHAIRMAN, 
SENATE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP, AND A 
           UNITED STATES SENATOR FROM MASSACHUSSETTS

    Chairman Kerry. We will come to order, and I thank our 
colleague Senator Bond for being here promptly, and hopefully 
our colleagues will get here. We have a very small window to 
try to conduct business here today, which is not unusual for 
this Committee, and I guess not unusual in the Senate nowadays. 
But it is going to be particularly important that we try to get 
staff to get their Members here, if we could, on both sides of 
the aisle, because we really have about a half-hour window 
given the markup that is taking place in the Governmental 
Affairs Committee, which commands the attention of a number of 
Members on the committee.
    I want to thank all of the staff who have worked diligently 
on doing this, and particularly Emilia DiSanto, Paul Cooksey 
and Cordell Smith of the Republican staff, and Kevin Wheeler, 
John DaSilva, Patty Forbes, and company for helping to work out 
and get some compromise on a lot of the issues that are in 
front of us today. I think it is a good statement about the 
good faith of the Committee in trying to do that.
    We have seven pieces of legislation and a number of 
amendments before the Committee. I hope we can move through 
them, as I said, as rapidly as possible. I am not going to make 
a long opening. But given the fact that we don't have a 
sufficient number of Members here to even begin to talk about 
the amendments, maybe we should give long openings, Senator 
Bond.
    [Laughter.]
    Senator Bond. A long opening, OK.
    Chairman Kerry. The seven bills before the Committee are S. 
2335, the Native American Small Business Development Act, 
introduced by Senator Johnson and myself, as well as a number 
of other Senators, which will establish a statutory program for 
Native Americans at the SBA and create innovative grant 
programs to help them open and run small businesses. I think 
this is a very important effort, a step to try to alleviate 
what we all know have been just pervasive and persistent, tough 
economic conditions in many of the Native American communities 
where unemployment rates are over 40 percent, very common.
    Second, S. 2734, the Small Business Drought Relief Act, 
introduced by myself, Senator Hollings, Senator Landrieu, and 
cosponsored by Senators Bond, Edwards, Carnahan, Enzi, Cleland, 
Lieberman, and Ensign, which will deal with the devastating 
impact of the drought conditions which a lot of people have not 
really noticed except those in the areas, but they have really 
had a terrible impact in certain parts of the country.
    S. 2466, the Small Business Federal Contractor Safeguard 
Act, introduced by myself, Senator Bond, Senator Carnahan, and 
Senator Collins, which is designed to try to help ensure that 
unnecessary contract bundling doesn't deny a lot of small 
businesses procurement opportunities. We have talked about this 
a number of times in the Committee. We want to try to close the 
loopholes in the current definition of a bundled contract.
    S. 1994, The Combined 8(a) and HUBZone Priority Preference 
Act, introduced by myself and Senator Bond, which is intended 
to re-establish the preference previously given to firms with 
an 8(a) and HUBZone certification under the original HUBZone 
rule, that was recently slated for elimination by the SBA, and 
we would like to keep that.
    S. 2483, the National Small Business Regulatory Assistance 
Act of 2002, introduced by Senator Cleland, myself, and a 
number of other Senators, to allow Small Business Development 
Centers to provide small businesses with confidential, free-of-
charge, regulatory compliance assistance.
    H.R. 2666, the Vocational and Technical Entrepreneurship 
Development Act, introduced by Congressman Brady of 
Pennsylvania, which passed the House on October 2nd last year. 
This is legislation that would allow Small Business Development 
Centers to provide training to vocational educational students 
to acquire business skills in addition to their technical ones 
and open their own shops.
    Finally, the Small and Disadvantaged Business Ombudsman 
Act, introduced by myself, Senators Bond, Cleland, Cantwell, 
Bingaman, and Carnahan, to protect the interests of small 
business in the Federal procurement marketplace.
    Senator Bond, do you want to add anything to that?
    Senator Cleland, welcome. Glad to have you here.
    Senator Cleland. Thank you very much.

OPENING STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE CHRISTOPHER S. BOND, RANKING 
        MEMBER, SENATE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS AND 
  ENTREPRENEURSHIP, AND A UNITED STATES SENATOR FROM MISSOURI

    Senator Bond. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the 
chance to share a few thoughts as the crowd is gathering.
    As you noted, we do have a number of markups this morning. 
In addition to the Governmental Affairs Homeland Security, 
there is a HELP Committee markup, there is an Energy and Water 
Committee markup. Senator Mikulski and I are in the middle of 
the VA, HUD, and if you haven't gotten your list of strategic 
investments for Massachusetts--and I would say you are one of 
the few, but we always appreciate the attention of our 
colleagues when that important bill comes before us.
    I have some concerns I want to share with you. The bills 
before us would create a new ombudsman office at SBA, would re-
create a system of Technical Assistance Centers for 
entrepreneurs in Indian country. In fact, S. 2335 would create 
three programs to replace the old Tribal Business Information 
Centers the SBA defunded earlier this year. We would 
dramatically expand the scope and reach of the SBA disaster 
loan programs and impose new responsibilities on SBDCs.
    Many of us might like the goals of some of these changes, 
but outside of this room, I think it is fair to note that a 
different budget reality prevails. The Commerce, State, Justice 
Appropriations SubCommittee has come nowhere close to the 
funding levels we would like to see. The 7(a) loan program is 
being hacked in half, and funding is falling short of the needs 
for other core SBA programs.
    While we disagree, I think, on a bipartisan basis in this 
Committee with what is happening in the CJS bill, we know one 
of the reasons it is happening: We are facing an unexpected war 
on terrorism at a high cost. We have to pay the bills for that. 
The American people expect no less.
    This further squeezes other Government programs, and we 
have to be careful to avoid expanding existing programs to 
assure that we can make a compelling case for their funding.
    For example, we cannot afford to replace the old Tribal 
Business Program with three new ones. I appreciate the 
Chairman's working with us to pare that back to two programs, 
which is more realistic. But I still think we are going to have 
to look at the budget realities.
    Next, I don't think we ought to be creating new offices 
that duplicate existing staffs. We already have numerous small 
business advocates in procurement. Every agency has an Office 
of Small, Disadvantaged Business Utilization. We have 
procurement center representatives, PCRs, at contracting 
offices, but not enough of them. We have small business 
specialists within the agency procurement staffs as well. We 
have the regular SBA Office of Government Contracting and 
Business Development. I question whether we need to start a new 
office.
    We have worked with the Chairman on streamlining the bill a 
bit and putting the procurement ombudsman in the existing 
Office of Advocacy. Some of the other functions would be 
reassigned in the regular SBA Contracting Program Office. For 
example, agencies that fall short of their small business goals 
would have to negotiate goal attainment programs, not just keep 
falling short year in and year out. That is a good idea. This 
relates to program management, so we assign that role to the 
program managers at SBA. This is definitely an improvement over 
where we are.
    Some bills could be improved if we had time to look at 
them. The Small Business Drought Relief bill, S. 2734, was 
introduced late in the day on July 16. It is a week old. We 
know that it isn't ready to report to the Senate. Certainly I 
share the Chairman's concern that small businesses have been 
unnecessarily restricted in drought relief. A similar problem 
arose in the SDB Ombudsman bill. Although we have been 
reviewing earlier drafts, we cosponsored the original bill. We 
didn't get the final until Thursday night, and we were working 
on a substitute, and we don't know what--we are still trying to 
figure out the final language.
    Since this markup was announced, however, we have made some 
real progress on some of these areas, and it seems much of this 
has been worked out. We have reached a deal. It should not have 
been as painful, and I am hopeful in the future we could make 
sure that we have the hearings and the roundtables to prepare 
us for any problems that might arise, either in the Committee 
or, frankly, when we get to the floor and when we get to the 
appropriations process, which authorizing without being able to 
fund is a hollow step.
    We do need to have a legislative history because with a 
blank slate we are not in as strong a position to go to the 
appropriators to make it a funding priority.
    Finally, a point about the process. In the past we have 
often voted to report bills en bloc as soon as we get a quorum 
subject to further amendment. Given the lack of legislative 
record on several of these items, I question that approach 
today. I suggest that we deal with each bill separately and 
each amendment to each bill. Then we can vote to report the 
measures en bloc at that point.
    Members of this Committee have offered some significant 
amendments, and I have myself. In some cases, we have been able 
to negotiate an agreement in advance, but I think these issues 
ought to be heard. I really think that trying to report them 
all at once is problematic given some of the problems I see in 
this bill. Frankly, just this morning, we received a letter 
from the SBA raising real questions about S. 2483 and H.R. 
2666. These are measures which significantly expand and bring 
SBDCs into new areas, and I have some problems with that.
    No. 1, the SBDCs provide a vital role in providing business 
assistance, and we haven't been able to get enough funding for 
those. I think as the SBA has pointed out, the functions that 
we seek to place on the SBDC in these bills are duplicated 
elsewhere. EPA has a strong program for regulatory assistance. 
SBDC, to my knowledge, doesn't have that expertise. Second, on 
vocational training and assistance, SBA has not been in that 
business, and the SBA suggests that this is more appropriately 
funded in the education area where they are equipped to do 
vocational training.
    With that, I look forward to working with the Chairman and 
the Committee on these measures, and I appreciate the chance to 
work together.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Kerry. Senator Bond, thank you. Those are 
legitimate concerns that you expressed, and I think that we 
have worked through a great many of the concerns. I know that 
there is an amendment that you and I are cosponsoring on a 
number of these efforts to address some of those concerns, and 
obviously I regret the compactness of the timing. It is just 
the way it is falling around here right now as we are all under 
pressure time-wise. These issues are important. They have been 
around for a while, so they are not really first blush in many 
respects.
    What I would like to do, because we do have this very short 
window--Senator Lieberman is here. He has to go chair the 
markup of the Homeland Security, and several Members here need 
to be part of that. So I would like to first begin by asking 
consent to waive the Cordon rule and for staff to be able to 
make technical and conforming amendments to matters that are 
acted on at the markup. Without objection?
    Senator Bond. Without objection.
    Chairman Kerry. So ordered.
    Now I would like to call up S. 2734, the Small Business 
Drought Relief bill and the Kerry-Bond substitute amendment, 
and then I want to call up--I would like to see if we could 
pass that amendment by voice vote. I think we have agreement on 
that, and then call up the Levin amendment and see if Senator 
Levin could address any concerns anyone has on that.
    So is there any debate with respect to the Kerry-Bond 
substitute amendment? If not, all those in favor, say aye?
    [A chorus of ayes.]
    Chairman Kerry. Opposed, nay?
    [No response.]
    Chairman Kerry. The ayes have it. The amendment is adopted, 
and I now call up the Levin amendment.
    Senator Levin.
    Senator Levin. Mr. Chairman, let me thank you and Senator 
Bond. I understand that this will be an acceptable subject to 
some of the comments that have been made, some of the concerns 
which have been raised. We are adding the word ``drought'' to 
the term ``disaster,'' and that means now that we will have as 
a definition of ``disaster'' explosions, fires, windstorms and 
so forth, and drought. What I want to add by my amendment is 
water levels in the Great Lakes, which are at a disastrously 
low point now. We have got the same kind of problem there as 
commercial fishery failures have had along our oceans.
    At times we do include ocean conditions resulting in 
closure of customary fishing waters already in the term 
``disaster.'' We think this fits with the term ``disaster'' 
when you have these disastrously low water levels in the Great 
Lakes which have caused such damage to our marinas and to our 
commercial fishing. So that is the gist of our amendment, that 
in addition to adding the word ``drought,'' which in there 
pursuant to this bill, that we add the word--that we add the 
disastrously low water levels in the Great Lakes.
    Chairman Kerry. Is there any further debate?
    Senator Bond. Mr. Chairman, I understand my colleague from 
Michigan has some serious problems with this, but this, 
frankly, is a major concern, not just for the Great Lakes and 
not just for the SBA.
    No. 1, when we have low water on the Missouri River, all 
hell breaks loose, and we have got municipalities and problems. 
We have got small shipping operations that face problems. There 
was a tremendous problem in agriculture this spring at one 
point because of low water. Fertilizer wasn't coming up. The 
terminals have had real problems. Our friends and our 
colleagues in the West are continually talking about their 
problems with low water levels.
    The second problem I would raise is what this does to the 
overall cost of disaster. I have the pleasure, at least until 
we reorganize the Government and move FEMA to somebody else's 
Appropriations SubCommittee, of funding disasters in the VA, 
HUD Appropriations bill. Really, I don't have a fix yet on how 
much this would cost, what the impact would be, and how it 
would affect other areas where low water levels are a serious 
problem.
    I don't in the least disagree with the concern that our 
colleague from Michigan has, but I would propose to accept this 
amendment because this bill is very important and that we get 
it done. I assure the Chairman and the Senator from Michigan 
that we will work with him. We have got to find out what the 
impact is and how many others--if this puppy gets to the floor, 
I can see a lot of love coming for it from others suffering 
from low water levels.
    So for the purpose of this markup, I would recommend we 
accept it and continue to work on it. You don't have low water 
problems in Louisiana, do you?
    Senator Landrieu. We never have water problems in 
Louisiana.
    Chairman Kerry. Senator Bond, thank you. I really 
appreciate that, and I particularly appreciate the cooperative 
spirit of trying to move this along, and we recognize the 
difficulties of the funding.
    Is there any further debate on the Levin amendment? If 
there is not, we will proceed to a vote. All those in favor, 
say aye?
    [A chorus of ayes.]
    Chairman Kerry. Opposed, nay?
    [No response.]
    Chairman Kerry. The ayes have it and the amendment is 
adopted.
    We have an amendment by Senator Edwards to the same bill.
    Senator Edwards. A very simple amendment, Mr. Chairman. We 
have had serious problems, as many others have, with drought in 
North Carolina. Basically, all this amendment says is, if the 
Governor applies to the SBA for drought assistance and drought 
relief, that they will get an answer within 30 days, which I 
think makes sense. One of the problems has been getting a 
timely answer, and we just want to make sure that folks get an 
answer when they make a request.
    Chairman Kerry. Is there any debate on the amendment?
    Senator Bond. No objection.
    Chairman Kerry. If not, all those in favor of the 
amendment, say aye?
    [A chorus of ayes.]
    Chairman Kerry. Opposed, nay?
    [No response.]
    Chairman Kerry. The ayes have it and the amendment is 
adopted.
    Senator Edwards. Mr. Chairman, I also ask that Senator 
Stevens and Senator Allen be added as cosponsors to the 
amendments.
    Chairman Kerry. Without objection, so ordered.
    We now have 10 Members present, and I would like to move en 
bloc, if I may, to a Committee vote on five bills as follows, 
en bloc, and then we will return to the completion of the 
drought amendments if they are not--and then we have Senator 
Cleland's bill, and very quickly, the Vocational Tech bill. So 
I appreciate everybody's cooperation here.
    The five bills we would vote on en bloc are: S. 2335, 
Native American Small Business Development Act, as amended; S. 
2466, Small Business Federal Contractor Safeguard Act; S. 2734, 
the Small Business Drought Relief Act, with the substitute 
amendment and as amended by Senator Levin and Senator Edwards; 
S. 1994, the Combined 8(a) and HUBZone Priority Preference Act, 
with the Bond-Kerry amendment; and S. 2753, the Small and 
Disadvantaged Business Ombudsman Act, with the Committee 
substitute by Senator Bond and myself.
    The clerk will call the roll.
    The Clerk. Mr. Levin?
    Senator Levin. Aye.
    The Clerk. Mr. Levin, aye. Mr. Harkin?
    Chairman Kerry. Aye, by proxy.
    The Clerk. Mr. Harkin, aye, by proxy. Mr. Lieberman?
    Senator Lieberman. Aye.
    The Clerk. Mr. Lieberman, aye. Mr. Wellstone?
    Chairman Kerry. Aye, by proxy.
    The Clerk. Mr. Wellstone, aye, by proxy. Mr. Cleland?
    Senator Cleland. Aye.
    The Clerk. Mr. Cleland, aye. Ms. Landrieu?
    Senator Landrieu. Aye.
    The Clerk. Ms. Landrieu, aye. Mr. Edwards?
    Senator Edwards. Aye.
    The Clerk. Mr. Edwards, aye. Ms. Cantwell?
    Chairman Kerry. Aye, by proxy.
    The Clerk. Ms. Cantwell, aye, by proxy. Mrs. Carnahan?
    Senator Carnahan. Aye.
    The Clerk. Mrs. Carnahan, aye. Mr. Bond?
    Senator Bond. Aye.
    The Clerk. Mr. Bond, aye. Mr. Burns?
    Senator Burns. Aye.
    The Clerk. Mr. Burns, aye. Mr. Bennett?
    Senator Bennett. Aye.
    The Clerk. Mr. Bennett, aye. Ms. Snowe?
    [No response.]
    The Clerk. Mr. Enzi?
    Senator Enzi. Aye.
    The Clerk. Mr. Enzi, aye. Mr. Fitzgerald?
    Senator Bond. Aye, by proxy.
    The Clerk. Mr. Fitzgerald, aye, by proxy. Mr. Crapo?
    Senator Crapo. Aye.
    The Clerk. Mr. Crapo, aye. Mr. Allen?
    Senator Bond. Aye, by proxy.
    The Clerk. Mr. Allen, aye, by proxy. Mr. Ensign?
    Senator Bond. Aye, by proxy.
    The Clerk. Mr. Ensign, aye, by proxy. Mr. Chairman?
    Chairman Kerry. Aye.
    The Clerk. Mr. Chairman, aye.
    Chairman Kerry. Let me just see--I think we will be OK. Can 
other Members stay for about 5 minutes? I think we can really--
--
    Senator Levin. Yes, 5 minutes.
    Chairman Kerry. Thank you very, very much.
    The vote is announced?
    The Clerk. Eighteen ayes, zero nays.
    Chairman Kerry. Thank you.
    I now call up Senator Cleland's bill, S. 2483, National 
Small Business Regulatory Act.
    Senator Cleland.
    Senator Cleland. Mr. Chairman, thank you and your staff for 
working with me and Congressman Sweeney and the Association of 
Small Business Development Centers to put together the Senate 
version of the National Small Business Regulatory Assistance 
Act. S. 2483 makes substantial improvements to the House-passed 
version of the legislation, including an improved funding 
formula to ensure all States participating in the pilot program 
receive resources to run the program effectively, a streamlined 
study on the types of regulatory assistance provided to small 
businesses under the pilot program, a revamped provision on 
privacy rights for SBDC clients derived from a memorandum of 
understanding between the SBDCs and the SBA, as well as 
technical changes such as updating the list of where SBDC 
services are provided.
    I believe the support expressed for S. 2483 by a number of 
the Small Business Development Centers around the country, 
their association, National Small Businesses United, the 
National Association of Self-Employed, and the chair of the 
National Steering Committee of the Small Business Ombudsman 
Small Business Assistance Program, as well as the letter from 
the House sponsors of the bill, Congressman Sweeney, Republican 
of New York, requesting the Committee markup S. 2483 are 
overwhelming and indicative of the strong grass-roots support 
for my legislation.
    It is no secret that small businesses want to comply with 
Federal regulations, but often lack the knowledge of how to do 
so. S. 2483 will allow these small businesses to work with 
their trusted SBDC counselor who can provide confidential, 
free-of-charge, regulatory compliance assistance.
    I once again thank you for agreeing to my request to mark 
up this legislation. I believe the resources we provide under 
this pilot program will do a lot of good for our small 
businesses as they seek to comply with Federal regulations.
    [The prepared comments of Senator Cleland follows:]

    Opening Talking Points on S. 2483, the National Small Business 
                       Regulatory Assistance Act

    Mr. Chairman, my thanks to you and your staff for working with me, 
Congressman Sweeney and the Association of Small Business Development 
Centers to put together the Senate version of the National Small 
Business Regulatory Assistance Act.
    S. 2483 makes substantial improvements to the House passed version 
of this legislation, including an improved funding formula to ensure 
all states participating in the pilot program receive resources to run 
the program effectively; a streamlined study on the types of regulatory 
assistance provided to small businesses under the pilot program; a 
revamped provision on privacy rights for SBDC clients, derived from a 
Memorandum of Understanding between the SBDCs and the Small Business 
Administration; as well as technical changes, such as updating the list 
of where SBDC services are provided.
    I believe the support expressed for S. 2483 by a number of the 
Small Business Development Centers around the country, their 
association, National Small Business United, the National Association 
of the Self Employed, and the chair of the National Steering Committee 
of the Small Business Ombudsman/Small Business Assistance Program, as 
well as the letter from the House sponsor of the bill, Congressman 
Sweeney, Republican of New York, requesting that the Committee mark-up 
S. 2483, are overwhelming and indicative of the strong grass-roots 
support for my legislation.
    It is no secret that small businesses want to comply with Federal 
regulations, but often lack the knowledge of how to do so. S. 2483 will 
allow these small businesses to work with their trusted SBDC counselor 
who can provide confidential, free of charge, in-depth regulatory 
compliance assistance that is desperately needed.
    I once again thank you for agreeing to my request to mark-up this 
legislation and I believe the resources we provide under this pilot 
program will do a lot of good for our small businesses as they seek to 
comply with Federal regulations.

    Chairman Kerry. Thank you very much, Senator Cleland.
    The bill is open to amendment, if there are any. There are 
no amendments filed. If there are no----
    Senator Bond. Mr. Chairman, as I indicated, the Small 
Business Administration has raised questions about this bill. 
No. 1, I certainly agree with the need for regulatory 
assistance for small business, but--and this is a 4-year pilot 
program to provide regulatory compliance assistance. As we 
note, the Committee has held no hearings or roundtable 
discussion on the bill, and I am concerned, No. 1, that it 
would duplicate the ongoing programs at EPA, which already is 
providing the support to small business. EPA provides 
compliance assistance to the small business ombudsman. It is 
one-stop small business assistance between the small business 
and EPA. Section 507 of the Clean Air Act Amendments, Small 
Business Assistance Program, SBAP, provides technical 
assistance in all 50 States through State-operated programs.
    The EPA Office of Compliance Assistance provides Virtual 
Compliance Assistance Centers, Web-delivered, in a variety of 
business sectors such as printing and local government.
    Under the Red Tape Reduction Act, the EPA Office of the 
Administrator provides opportunities for small businesses to 
participate in the regulatory process. They have had 23 
different rulemakings and 6 compliance guides. As the SBA 
points out, this would provide the SBDC Association, a non-
governmental entity, with a role in promulgating and 
interpreting regulations and criteria mandated under the 
legislation.
    I raise the question that I think before we take this bill 
to the floor, we ought to explore in a Committee hearing to 
find out, given the tremendous pressures on the SBDCs to 
provide business advice, whether we should give them a 
responsibility of duplicating already existing EPA and SBA 
assistance in regulatory compliance.
    Again, we don't have enough dollars for the vital programs 
of the SBA, and before we move on giving a totally new 
responsibility of governmental regulation interpretation to a 
non-governmental agency, I would hope that we could have a 
thorough discussion in the Committee about it. So I raise a 
question about this one, and I think--I don't know if we have 
already done it, but perhaps this would be an appropriate time 
to ask that the letter from Administrator Hector Barreto dated 
July 23, 2002, be submitted for the record here.
    Senator Cleland. Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Kerry. If Senator Cleland will hold just for a 
minute, without objection, that will be submitted for the 
record.
    [The letter follows:]

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    Chairman Kerry. Let me just say very quickly, I think there 
may be a way to work through this. We have worked closely--
first of all, this bill was filed in the House, passed by the 
House, and there were hearings in the House. So there is a 
legislative record with respect to this that we deemed 
transferred with it and sufficient in our judgment to be able 
to lay down a sort of legislative capacity to make judgments 
about it.
    Second, we have worked very closely, Senator Cleland and 
the Committee and our staff, with the House sponsor, with the 
SBDCs themselves, and it is supported by small business groups.
    Now, I don't want to--you know, we have never tried to 
railroad things or ram things through here, and I don't want to 
do it that way. I don't like that. I think we want to try and 
do it intelligently and have support. Obviously, if we don't 
have broad-based support, there are all kinds of ways of 
slowing it down on the floor and so forth.
    Maybe we could do this, and I would like to see if this 
would meet everybody's approval. There are a number of changes 
that have been made in this, fixing sort of a crucial funding 
program, which is why this has received strong support. Maybe 
we could pass this today, if the Committee were in accord with 
that, agree to have a roundtable in the very near term, which 
Senator Cleland could chair and Members who have concerns could 
come to, and I will work with the Committee in good faith 
before--if we need to, to create some kind of managers' 
amendment when it comes to the floor and resolve whatever 
significant differences exist then. I think that would really 
facilitate our capacity to move.
    Senator Bond. Well, Mr. Chairman, certainly that is the way 
that we have worked in this Committee in the past. We know 
there is a concern here on the same basis as we agreed to the 
amendment from the Senator from Michigan. I understand the 
concern. I understand the objective. I would recommend to my 
colleagues that we support this bill subject to the roundtable 
and further discussion.
    I want to hear from the SBDCs. I want to hear from SBA and 
EPA----
    Chairman Kerry. Sure.
    Senator Bond [continuing]. On this before we take it to the 
floor to make sure that we are, No. 1, not duplicating work 
that is already being done by the EPA and SBA; No. 2, that 
there is not a problem with the SBDCs providing interpretation 
of Government regulations in an area which, frankly, I don't 
know their expertise; and, No. 3, whether given the 
responsibilities that we impose on the SBDCs and, frankly, the 
inadequate funding we are providing to them, if they can 
fulfill their basic business. I would say that I would have the 
same views on the vocational assistance of SBDCs.
    The SBDCs, in my view, are great organizations. They 
provide a valuable service. We haven't been able to fund them, 
and before we take a bill to the floor providing them 
responsibilities in regulatory interpretations or in vocational 
education, that we see that we are not getting into a problem 
in any of these three areas.
    So I would be happy--I would recommend to colleagues on my 
side that we accept those subject to that condition.
    Chairman Kerry. I appreciate the Senator's cooperation, and 
the Senator certainly has the right to have those questions 
answered, and I think any Member of the Committee does. So I 
think that is a good way to proceed, and I appreciate 
everybody's cooperation.
    We will try to set that roundtable up just as fast as we 
can and see if we can't expedite the process.
    Does that meet your needs, Senator Cleland?
    Senator Cleland. Yes, sir.
    Chairman Kerry. Thank you.
    Senator Bond. Are there any comments or questions, 
colleagues on this side?
    Chairman Kerry. Senator Allen?
    Senator Allen. Mr. Chairman, on H.R. 2666, what was the 
disposition of the proposed Edwards amendment?
    Senator Bond. The Edwards amendment on the drought 
assistance was accepted. That is the one that requires the SBA 
to----
    Chairman Kerry. No, this is on a separate bill. This is on 
2666, which is the vo tech. He has withdrawn that. It is 
withdrawn.
    Senator Allen. He has withdrawn that?
    Chairman Kerry. Withdrawn that amendment.
    Are there any further inquiries or questions? If not, I 
would like to proceed to a vote then. If we could proceed to a 
vote on both bills, I think that would expedite the procedure, 
and I will keep my commitment to everybody to move this 
hopefully within half an hour.
    Senator Wellstone. Mr. Chairman, on the last vote, the 
Native American Small Business Development Act, I would ask 
unanimous consent that I cast my vote now present for that last 
vote.
    Chairman Kerry. Without objection, so ordered.
    Senator Bond. We would be happy to do that. Senator 
Wellstone is one of our most faithful attendees. The Chairman 
and Senator Wellstone and I have conducted a lot of business 
together.
    [Laughter.]
    Chairman Kerry. Without further ado, then, if we could vote 
en bloc, the clerk will call the roll.
    The Clerk. Mr. Levin?
    Senator Levin. Aye.
    The Clerk. Mr. Levin, aye. Mr. Harkin?
    Chairman Kerry. Mr. Harkin, aye, by proxy.
    The Clerk. Mr. Harkin, aye, by proxy. Mr. Lieberman?
    Chairman Kerry. Aye, by proxy.
    The Clerk. Mr. Lieberman, aye, by proxy. Mr. Wellstone?
    Senator Wellstone. Aye.
    The Clerk. Mr. Wellstone, aye. Mr. Cleland?
    Senator Cleland. Aye.
    The Clerk. Mr. Cleland, aye. Ms. Landrieu?
    Senator Landrieu. Aye.
    The Clerk. Ms. Landrieu, aye. Mr. Edwards?
    Chairman Kerry. Aye, by proxy.
    The Clerk. Mr. Edwards, aye, by proxy. Ms. Cantwell?
    Chairman Kerry. Aye, by proxy.
    The Clerk. Ms. Cantwell, aye, by proxy. Mrs. Carnahan?
    Senator Carnahan. Aye.
    The Clerk. Mrs. Carnahan, aye. Mr. Bond?
    Senator Bond. Aye.
    The Clerk. Mr. Bond, aye. Mr. Burns?
    Senator Burns. Aye.
    The Clerk. Mr. Burns, aye. Mr. Bennett?
    Senator Bennett. Aye.
    The Clerk. Mr. Bennett, aye. Ms. Snowe?
    Senator Snowe. Aye.
    The Clerk. Ms. Snowe, aye. Mr. Enzi?
    Senator Enzi. No.
    The Clerk. Mr. Enzi, no. Mr. Fitzgerald?
    Senator Bond. Aye, by proxy.
    The Clerk. Mr. Fitzgerald, aye, by proxy. Mr. Crapo?
    Senator Crapo. Aye.
    The Clerk. Mr. Crapo, aye. Mr. Allen?
    Senator Allen. Aye.
    The Clerk. Mr. Allen, aye. Mr. Ensign?
    Senator Ensign. Aye.
    The Clerk. Mr. Ensign, aye. Mr. Chairman?
    Chairman Kerry. Aye.
    The Clerk. Mr. Chairman, aye. Eighteen ayes, one nay.
    Chairman Kerry. The bills are reported as approved.
    I really want to thank my colleagues. It is never easy here 
to get a quorum. I will try to move as rapidly as possible, and 
I pledge to the Committee we will complete the task of getting 
the work done on those issues that still remain outstanding. 
But I thank everybody for their cooperation.
    Is there any further--yes, Senator Snowe?
    Senator Snowe. May I be recorded aye on the previous vote?
    Chairman Kerry. I beg your pardon?
    Senator Snowe. May I be recorded aye?
    Chairman Kerry. Without objection, Senator Snowe will be 
recorded aye as present, and I submit a package of letters of 
support from various organizations for the legislation approved 
today into the record.* 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    * These letters are located in the Appendix.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Chairman Kerry. Senator Landrieu.
    Senator Landrieu. Mr. Chairman, I just want to ask 
unanimous consent to be added as a cosponsor for S. 2753.
    Chairman Kerry. Without objection, so ordered.
    Is there any further business to come before the Committee?
    Senator Cantwell. Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Kerry. Senator Cantwell.
    Senator Cantwell. I would just ask that I be recorded in 
person as----
    Chairman Kerry. Without objection, Senator Cantwell is 
recorded in person on all of the votes.
    Senator Cantwell. Thank you.
    Chairman Kerry. Without further business, we stand 
adjourned. I thank everybody.
    [Whereupon, at 9:38 a.m., the Committee was adjourned.]
    [Appendix material submitted follows:]
      


                      APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED

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                       LETTERS REGARDING S. 2335

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                       LETTERS REGARDING S. 1994


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                       LETTERS REGARDING S. 2483
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                       LETTERS REGARDING S. 2753

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                       LETTERS REGARDING S. 2466

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                       LETTERS REGARDING S. 2734

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                              LEGISLATION

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