[Senate Hearing 107-380]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 107-380
NOMINATION OF NANCY P. DORN
=======================================================================
HEARING
before the
COMMITTEE ON
GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED SEVENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
ON THE
NOMINATION OF NANCY P. DORN TO BE DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF THE OFFICE OF
MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET
__________
FEBRUARY 8, 2002
__________
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COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS
JOSEPH I. LIEBERMAN, Connecticut, Chairman
CARL LEVIN, Michigan FRED THOMPSON, Tennessee
DANIEL K. AKAKA, Hawaii TED STEVENS, Alaska
RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine
ROBERT G. TORRICELLI, New Jersey GEORGE V. VOINOVICH, Ohio
MAX CLELAND, Georgia PETE V. DOMENICI, New Mexico
THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware THAD COCHRAN, Mississippi
JEAN CARNAHAN, Missouri ROBERT F. BENNETT, Utah
MARK DAYTON, Minnesota JIM BUNNING, Kentucky
Joyce A. Rechtschaffen, Staff Director and Counsel
Kevin J. Landy, Counsel
Jason M. Yanussi, Professional Staff Member
Hannah S. Sistare, Minority Staff Director and Counsel
Johanna, L. Hardy, Minority Counsel
Darla D. Cassell, Chief Clerk
C O N T E N T S
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Opening statements:
Page
Senator Lieberman............................................ 1
Senator Stevens.............................................. 2
Senator Cochran.............................................. 11
WITNESS
Friday, February 8, 2002
Nancy P. Dorn to be Deputy Director of the Office of Management
and Budget..................................................... 4
Prepared statement........................................... 15
Biographical and financial information submitted for the
record..................................................... 17
Pre-hearing questions and responses.......................... 24
Additional pre-hearing questions from Chairman Lieberman with
responses from Ms. Dorn.................................... 68
Post-hearing questions from Senator Thompson with responses
from Ms. Dorn.............................................. 70
Appendix
Prepared statement:
Senator Warner............................................... 3
NOMINATION OF NANCY P. DORN
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FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 8, 2002
U.S. Senate,
Committee on Governmental Affairs,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:33 a.m., in
room SD-342, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Joseph I.
Lieberman, Chairman of the Committee, presiding.
Present: Senators Lieberman, Stevens, and Cochran.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR LIEBERMAN
Chairman Lieberman. Good morning.
Today we are considering the nomination of Nancy Dorn to be
Deputy Director of the Office of Management and Budget. She
comes to this position after having served the public in many
other capacities, having worked in Congress, at the White
House, and for the State Department.
In 1991--my prepared remarks reveal your exact age. Do I
have your permission to go ahead and do that?
Ms. Dorn. It is OK.
Chairman Lieberman. In 1991, she was the first woman and,
at age 33, the youngest person to be nominated and confirmed to
the position of Assistant Secretary of the Army for Civil Works
with a responsibility for the Army Corps of Engineers.
We welcome you, Ms. Dorn, and we are pleased you could be
with us this morning.
As you know, the Office of Management and Budget is one of
the most influential agencies of the Federal Government with
sweeping authority that most Americans are unaware of. I think
of OMB as the administrative nerve center of the Executive
Branch, recommending how every single taxpayer dollar should be
spent and helping to oversee how every Federal program is
managed. It has a unique role in shaping the annual budget,
which means it helps define not just the goals and priorities
of an administration but administration policy, as well.
We will be engaged in lively discussion and debate in the
coming months about budget policy, as we have already seen in
the last week or two.
Let me turn to new non-budgetary OMB responsibilities, very
briefly. Cybersecurity and protecting the government's
information infrastructure is a key OMB responsibility. And, if
I may say so now, a critical part of homeland security. This
Committee is proud of its role in developing the Government
Information Security Act and other laws, and I hope that the
Committee, OMB, and the relevant agencies will continue to work
together to seek their effective implementation.
Managing the government's information policies and the
shift to e-Government is another area in which this Committee
has taken a special interest. E-Government, we think, can help
us respond also to the new security threats at home through
better crisis management, improved data sharing between law
enforcement, entities, and faster communication with the
public.
In the past year, as you and I have discussed, the
Administration has articulated a commitment to e-Government
which gives me great hope that our ongoing negotiations with
OMB on this matter will result in consensus legislation very
soon.
Finally, let me discuss OMB's oversight of the Executive
Branch regulatory process. From my perspective, this is
actually one of the most significant roles played by OMB, and
certainly by the Deputy. If confirmed, Ms. Dorn, you will help
supervise the review of rules that provide critical protections
to public health, the environment, worker safety, and
consumers. This Committee was actively involved in sorting out
problems years ago in regulatory review, problems that involve
secrecy, and inappropriate influence that undermined public
trust in the fairness of the process.
Last year, some of us took an active interest, shall we
say, in this Administration's actions which we viewed as
rollbacks of a number of environmental regulations. I just want
to state here to you, for the record, that in my view a one
dimensional economic-based approach to regulatory review
neglects fundamental principles of fairness and the very
concept of protecting the public and the environment from harm.
If changes are contemplated in the process or standards of
regulatory review, I ask that you particularly, but also others
at OMB, consult closely with this Committee. Regulatory
agencies must have the capacity to do what Congress has asked
them to do in protecting the public interest and public safety.
We, on the Governmental Affairs Committee, and you at OMB,
have a lot of work to do and we should be doing it together. We
look forward to forging a partnership with you on these
important matters.
I would like to add a brief word, a special word perhaps,
on behalf of Dan Blair, who has been nominated as Deputy
Director for the Office of Personnel Management and whose
hearing, chaired by Senator Akaka, will follow this one. Dan
has served with distinction for 4 years on this Committee as
senior counsel to Senator Thompson. And before that he worked
for the House Committee on Government Reform.
He has really dedicated his professional life to public
service and represents, in my opinion, the very best that this
country has to offer. I wish him the best in this new chapter
of his public service.
Senator Stevens.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR STEVENS
Senator Stevens. Mr. Chairman, as a former chairman, I am
delighted to be here once again when Nancy Dorn returns to a
position which requires Senate confirmation. I would call your
attention, Mr. Chairman, to the fact that her husband, James
Whittinghill, is sitting there behind her with her two
children, Caroline and Patrick, who are new additions to the
scene since the time that she was confirmed before by the
Senate.
I have known Nancy for a long time and her husband, also. I
am delighted to be here representing Senator Thompson in these
hearings. Thank you very much.
Chairman Lieberman. Thanks very much, Senator Stevens. The
husband has a familiar look to him. The children I am pleased
to see for the first time.
For the record, Ms. Dorn has submitted responses to
biographical and financial questionnaires, has answered pre-
hearing questions submitted by the Committee, and additional
questions from individual Senators, has had her financial
statement reviewed by the Office of Government Ethics. Without
objection, this information will be made part of the hearing
record, with the exception of the financial data, which is on
file and available for inspection in the Committee's offices.
In addition, the FBI file has been reviewed by Senator
Voinovich and me pursuant to Committee rules.
At this time, Senator Warner had hoped to be here to
introduce you. Unfortunately, he cannot, so he will give us a
statement which we will include in the record and in some sense
we will take Senator Stevens warm and personal remarks as the
introduction of you.
[The prepared statement of Senator Warner follows:]
PREPARED STATEMENT OF SENATOR JOHN WARNER, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE
STATE OF VIRGINIA
Chairman Lieberman, and my other distinguished colleagues on the
Senate Governmental Affairs Committee, it is my honor to come before
the Committee today and introduce Nancy Dorn to serve as Deputy
Director of the Office of Management and Budget.
It has been my privilege to once again be able to work with Ms.
Dorn in her current capacity as the Vice President's top legislative
aide. Previously, I had the opportunity to work directly with Ms. Dorn
when she served as Assistant Secretary of the Army for Civil Works. As
a member of the Committee on Environment and Public Works, which has
jurisdiction over the civil works program of the Corps, I found Ms.
Dorn to be an effective manager and skilled professional.
In addition to her service with the Department of the Army, Ms.
Dorn has a vast and distinguished career in Federal service and in the
private sector. I strongly believe in her abilities to serve in such a
vital role at OMB.
Ms. Dorn has served the Federal Government in various capacities
with budget and policy oversight, including senior level positions with
former administrations of President Reagan, President Bush, as well as
in the House of Representatives.
I trust that the actions and policies advanced by Ms. Dorn will
adhere to the mission of the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) in
helping the President carry out his constitutional and statutory duties
and conduct her work in the best interest of the American people.
I am pleased that a person with the professional capability,
personal character and integrity as Ms. Dorn's is willing to continue
in public service at OMB. I look forward to working with Ms. Dorn and I
offer my unqualified support for her nomination.
Chairman Lieberman. Ms. Dorn, before we proceed, would you
like an opportunity to introduce your family?
Ms. Dorn. Yes, Mr. Chairman. Thank you so much for the
courtesies that you and Senator Stevens have extended to both
me and my family, making a special effort to get this hearing
done in a timely sort of way. I know Friday mornings in
February are an unusual time to have hearings of this sort, but
we really appreciate the effort that you and your staffs have
put into it.
As indicated, my family joins me this morning. My husband,
Jim Whittinghill, who has been part of my life since the first
time I was confirmed. I think he was in the Senate working for
Senator Dole at that time, who is also a very good friend of
ours.
My son, Patrick, and my daughter, Caroline, are happy to be
here this morning. They are not in school, so they are taking
copious notes on management and budgeting and all manner of
issues of interest to this Committee and I hope that they can
report back on the proceedings here this morning.
Chairman Lieberman. If they can figure out the budget
crisis, I hope they will share that with me.
Ms. Dorn, our Committee rules require that all witnesses at
nomination hearings give their testimony under oath. So would
you please stand and raise your right hand?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony that you will give
the Committee today is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you, God?
Ms. Dorn. Yes sir, I do.
Chairman Lieberman. Thank you. Please be seated and the
record will show that you have answered the question in the
affirmative.
Do you have an opening statement that you would like to
give?
Ms. Dorn. I have a very short opening statement, Senator,
that I will just quickly go through.
TESTIMONY OF NANCY P. DORN \1\ TO BE DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF THE
OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET
Ms. Dorn. As I said, I really appreciate the Committee's
efforts to get this hearing together, and I apologize for my
scratchy voice, 2 days ago I had almost no voice. So I beg your
indulgence in getting this through.
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\1\ The prepared statement of Ms. Dorn appears in the Appendix on
page 15.
Biographical and financial information appear in the Appendix on
page 17.
Pre-hearing questions and responses appear in the Appendix on page
24.
Additional pre-hearing questions from Chairman Lieberman with
responses from Ms. Dorn appear in the Appendix on page 68.
Post-hearing questions from Senator Thompson with responses from
Ms. Dorn appear in the Appendix on page 70.
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It is a great honor to appear here today as President
Bush's nominee to serve as Deputy Director of the Office of
Management and Budget. I wish to thank the President, the Vice
President, and Director Daniels for the tremendous opportunity
to serve in this important position.
As I indicated, my family has made some sacrifices over the
past 3 or 4 years as I have moved from the Office of the
Speaker of the House to the Office of the Vice President, and
now granting me the privilege of serving in this position in
the government.
As the President's gatekeeper on budgetary policy and
regulatory matters, the Office of Management and Budget is at
the very center of the Federal Government, as you indicated.
For me, that offers great possibilities in the public policy
arena and will allow me to draw on my experience in the
Departments of Defense and State, and two previous White
Houses, as well as this one, and certainly in the Congress.
While I have never served in OMB during my 21 years in
Washington, I have had the chance to view the organization and
people from close range, and it is a very impressive
organization. I recognize the enormous responsibilities and
duties inherent in this position and, if confirmed by the
Senate, I look forward to serving in one of the most
professional and respected agencies within the U.S. Government.
We face a number of challenges and opportunities as we
enter 2002. As is reflected in the budget that President Bush
submitted to the Congress this week, we must fund our
priorities--defense, homeland security--as you indicated, and
economic growth. At the same time, we must hold down increases
in spending in other areas and this makes for some very
difficult choices.
While the potential for disagreement over which programs to
fund and at what level is limitless, the possibility exists
that the administration and the Congress can work together
constructively and in the same spirit that came out of the
tragedy of September 11.
I was very much a part of the scene through the last year
as Vice President Cheney's person, working with the Congress
and I think we can all take great credit and great pride in
getting through a very difficult year in a very harmonious
manner. It is my sincere hope that I can play a part in what
you, Chairman Lieberman, have called ``producing results for
the people.''
I would point out one other predominant theme of the fiscal
2003 year budget and that is management and performance-based
budgeting. This Committee has long been at the forefront of
better government management and has passed a number of
significant measures, including GPRA, the Government Paperwork
Reduction Act, and the Government Information Security Act.
The President and Director Daniels have capitalized on the
spirit of these laws and have taken them several steps further.
To the surprise of some, the budget scores the agencies on five
specific goals outlined in the President's management agenda.
Further, the fiscal 2003 budget actually pinpoints specific
programs which are successful and those which are not, and we
are beginning to budget for them accordingly.
But this, I would say, is only a beginning. I think in the
years to come we will take beginnings of what we started in the
2002 budget and hopefully move those into even a more
comprehensive whole. I look forward to moving toward fully
institutionalizing performance-based budgeting.
Thank you again for the opportunity to testify today and I
certainly look forward to working with this Committee, as well
as many of the other committees of the Congress that OMB has
dealings with.
Mr. Chairman, I would be happy to answer any questions that
you, Senator Stevens, or others may have.
Chairman Lieberman. Thanks very much, Ms. Dorn.
I will start the questioning now with a number of questions
that we ask of all nominees.
Is there anything you are aware of in your background which
might present a conflict of interest with the duties of the
office to which you have been nominated?
Ms. Dorn. No, sir.
Chairman Lieberman. Do you know of anything personal or
otherwise that would, in any way, prevent you from fully and
honorably discharging the responsibilities of Deputy Director
of OMB?
Ms. Dorn. No, sir.
Chairman Lieberman. And do you agree, without reservation,
to respond to any reasonable summons to appear and testify
before any duly constituted committee of Congress if you are
confirmed?
Ms. Dorn. Yes, I do.
Chairman Lieberman. Thank you.
I talked a bit in my opening statement about e-Government.
I wonder if you could first describe the role that you would
like to take as Deputy Director in information management and
e-Government issues?
Ms. Dorn. Mr. Chairman, I think this is one of the most
important areas that the government is making strides in. As
you know, the President's management agenda identifies e-
Government as one of the priorities that he wishes to pursue.
And certainly, as Deputy Director of OMB this will become a
very important part of my job if I am confirmed by the Senate.
This administration has made some significant efforts to
increase funding for e-Government. I think this year's budget
has a substantial increase for e-Government. And I know that at
least in the e-Government initiative that is being coordinated
by the Office of Management and Budget there is $100 million
increase just in that account alone.
So I think we will be spending a great deal of time on
trying to make the government more transparent, more
accessible, and more 21st Century than it is now.
Chairman Lieberman. I appreciate that. I mentioned the
legislation that Senator Conrad Burns and I introduced,
bipartisan legislation, which would promote initiatives to use
the Internet in government along with other information
technologies to improve government service.
Last July your predecessor, Sean O'Keefe, testified that he
intended to work with the Committee to arrive at consensus
legislation. We did work together and we basically agreed on
everything except one point, as I think you know, and the
significant question was exactly where does the function of the
chief information officer, the CIO, go in OMB?
I guess what I would like to have is your commitment that
you will work with this Committee to try to achieve that last
consensus on that item as quickly as possible so we can move
this legislation, which I think will make it more likely that
the additional funds that the President has put into the budget
will be well spent.
Ms. Dorn. Senator, we have made substantial strides. I
think even in the last several weeks there have been
discussions at the staff level to basically narrow whatever
differences are left. We look forward to working with you on
that bill and hopefully seeing it pass the Committee and the
Senate early this year.
Chairman Lieberman. Good.
In the 106th Congress, in a related matter, Senator
Thompson and I were successful in getting significant portions
of our information security bill, the Government Information
Security Act, enacted into law. OMB is charged with significant
responsibilities under the law, including establishing
government-wide information security policies, receiving annual
reports from agencies regarding their information security
evaluations, and enforcing agency accountability through budget
actions if an agency is not acting to protect its systems.
I am asking, at this point, for a current answer coming in
as you are, of what your opinion of Federal agencies' record is
to date in the area of computer security, which is obviously
important not only to the security from the government's point
of view, but in our attempt to engage more of the citizenry in
interacting with government over the Internet, by computer. We
want to give them security that what they give us will be held
in confidence.
Ms. Dorn. Senator, you are exactly right and I think that
the legislation that you and Senator Thompson passed made a
significant statement, made a significant starting point for
the government to start dealing with these issues. Our
sensitivity on this point has been heightened by the events of
last year. And in fact, the President has formed a council
within the Executive Branch of sub-cabinet level people to deal
with this issue on a comprehensive basis.
Dick Clark, who has been named as the cybersecurity
cyberterrorism coordinator under the Homeland Security Office,
has been hard at work to develop plans, and strategies to deal
with the issues of security breaches from the outside. That, I
would say, is one of the most critical functions that the
Office of the Homeland Security is undertaking.
You have also mentioned the privacy issue, in terms of
citizens' interaction with the government through the web,
through e-Government, or through traditional means. This is an
important consideration and I certainly share that view. We are
asking and in this new world we are going to be dealing with
citizens more and more through electronic transmissions. At the
same time, when they put information onto a website or into a
government system through computers, we have to be able to
protect that information. So that is an ongoing concern.
From OMB's perspective, this is not just a once a year
check the box sort of effort. In addition to the annual budget
submissions that come in through the agencies, OMB has
undertaken to meet with agencies periodically through the year
and have benchmarks periodically through the year as to how
they are developing their plans, how their milestones are being
achieved. Frankly if, at the end of the day, their IT purchases
do not have the necessary security provisions inherent in the
plan, I think I would be very reluctant to approve funding for
those items.
Chairman Lieberman. Two more questions, if I might. The
first is about a regulatory policy that I referred to. I wanted
to get your general reaction, both to the concerns about
regulatory review and also a specific reaction to my request
that if changes are contemplated and the process or standards
of regulatory review that you will notify our Committee and
work with us or at least listen to us before any such changes
are made.
Ms. Dorn. I certainly would be willing to make that
commitment, Senator. I look forward to working with the folks
at OMB, and particularly at OIRA, on regulatory policy. As
Senator Stevens mentioned, as Assistant Secretary in the Army
for Civil Works, I had some good experiences and some bad
experiences relative to regulations and the implementation of
regulations. I am very sensitive to the impact that they have,
not only on regular citizens but on the economy as well.
You have my commitment to work very closely with the
Congress as we go forward. There is lots of activity in this
realm. I think OIRA deals with something in excess of 4,000
regulations a year. It is a huge area of interest and concern
to me.
Chairman Lieberman. Thanks. The last question is about
human capital management, which is a subject that the Committee
has been interested in, particularly I must say, and to his
credit, Senator Voinovich has focused on this. This is one of
the less dramatic questions before the Committee. It does not
tend to attract a lot of media interest, but it really is
important, as he has pointed out. Which is to say the
projection of a very significant turnover in the Federal
workforce in the years ahead, and the question of whether we
are going to be able to attract the best people to fill those
critical positions.
I wanted to ask you two questions that related that, both
related actually to the budget proposal. The Administration has
now proposed that money be taken out of each agency's annual
appropriation to cover the future pension costs for the
agency's future retirees. I wanted to ask you to respond to
that from both points of view. One is the security of the
retirement system, which obviously is of concern as people
decide where to come to work.
But then the second is the adequacy of funding for the
programs that the agencies are supposed to carry out.
Ms. Dorn. Senator, the proposal and the budget, as I
understand it, pertains to accruals. Basically, these are
accounts that in the past have been funded in government-wide
accounts in OPM. In fact, they are the obligations that we have
for all the Federal employees, their retirement and the other
benefit packages that they have.
It is simply that the retirement and like benefits have
never been funded in the agencies' budget. Basically, the
Department of Defense, for example, has a large number of
employees, all of whom have benefit packages and which the
government is certainly responsible for those benefits.
The FY03 budget simply for the first time presents them in
a coordinated way so that each agency's true costs are shown up
front. There is really no real budget impact of this, because
we were funding these and had a liability to fund them anyway.
But simply to show them so that the agencies and the Congress
and the public could really see the true cost of employees and
the benefits that they have.
In this budget, no agency was penalized for taking this
step. It is a little bit of true and accurate accounting to
show these costs. We certainly are not seeking to penalize
government employees in any way. It is simply an effort to make
government and the cost of government a little bit more
transparent.
Chairman Lieberman. So whether the level of appropriations
are adequate to fund the responsibilities of the agencies
remains with my friend to the right, or to your left, and the
other members of the Appropriations Committee.
Ms. Dorn. We will certainly be working with the
Appropriations Committee to enact this change. It is a little
bit of a departure from the past, but I think that there is
sufficient budget authority to cover these, certainly we made
room for it in our budget. I think we can do it in the
appropriations process, as well.
Chairman Lieberman. My last question about human capital
management. You may know that Congress enacted the Federal Pay
Comparability Act in 1990 to close the gap between Federal and
non-Federal salaries. The pay adjustments under the act have
never been fully implemented and the administration's budget
for fiscal year 2003 follows what is regrettably a bipartisan
tradition of again not providing parity between public and
private salary levels.
I wanted you to comment on that from the perspective of the
deed, as I mentioned Senator Voinovich and others have pointed
to, to fill literally tens of thousands of positions that will
be coming open in the Federal Government in the years ahead.
Ms. Dorn. The President and the director are very aware of
the problem in human capital. It is one of the five issues that
has been identified in the President's management agenda. The
Office of Personnel Management and OMB are working very hard on
looking at the whole layout of Federal benefits.
I know that this Committee has been one of the supporters
of giving Federal managers some additional flexibilities and
other management tools, and we hope to continue to work with
the Committee on those issues, as well as a review of the whole
policy in that area.
I do not think anybody would say that the Federal system,
and the way it has developed over the past 50 years, is
flawless. We need to look at that.
Relative to the pay provision in this year's budget, the
President did make a determination that the military deserved a
pay raise. Certainly in this environment I support that, and I
suspect many others do, as well.
The civilian pay raise is in excess of 2 percent. In light
of the economic situation that most Americans are facing right
now, a good job with a 2 percent pay raise is actually a pretty
good deal. In light of a million people in the last 4 or 5
months who have lost their jobs, I think it is a reasonable
proposal.
But I take your point and we will work with this Committee
and with the Congress to look at the human capital issue, both
from a pay and from the benefits perspective.
Chairman Lieberman. Thanks, Ms. Dorn, I appreciate your
answers. Senator Stevens.
Senator Stevens. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Ms. Dorn, first, on the disclosure of the costs of
retirement, that covers, as I understand it, both the cost of
the civil service retirement system and the Federal employees
retirement system. My chief of staff for the Appropriations
Committee is behind me. He assures me that is fully disclosing
a total cost of the systems.
And really, it is an indication to everyone that they are
fully funded.
Ms. Dorn. That is correct.
Senator Stevens. In previous wars and periods of
engagement, we have not fully funded the retirement systems.
That was one of the real reasons why we had to really create
the Federal Employees Retirement System. One of your husband's
prior associates, Senator Baker, used to tell me that if you do
not toot your own horn, it is not going to be tooted. That bill
I authorized, the Federal Employees Retirement System. And I am
delighted to see that you are acknowledging the costs of the
system and assuring the members of the Federal system that we
are fully funding their retirements despite the war.
Let me ask you this. This is a strange thing, too, based on
my own experience. But when I entered government, we had a
Bureau of the Budget. The creation of the Office of Management
and Budget was really a creature of this Committee, as a matter
of fact.
But I sense that OMB is still mesmerized by the budget and
the management side is what is being slighted and has been
slighted in recent years. Which side are you really going to be
on? Are you on the budget side or the management side?
Ms. Dorn. Senator, I have to be on both sides. I can tell
you that while the budget and the whole budget process that
stretches from January 1 to December 21 every year can be an
all-consuming beast, that the President and Director Daniels
have made an enormous investment in the management agenda.
The management initiative that the President announced last
summer, the new provisions that you see in the fiscal year 2003
budget, they are new beginnings in this area. But I can tell
you that is what they are. They are beginnings. We have a long
way to go before we can institute and institutionalize a number
of these changes. I really look forward to spending a lot of
time in that area.
Hopefully, we will not get eaten up by the whole budget and
appropriations process entirely, and we can spend some time on
these issues.
Senator Stevens. In my judgment, things that we read about,
such as the problems of the Interior Department's oversight of
the trust funds of our Indian people, would not have happened
if the Office of Management and Budget really had pursued the
management side of their responsibilities.
That is not an indictment of this administration or the
previous one, but a whole series of administrations. And there
are a whole series of situations throughout the Executive
Branch were there are trust funds, and where there are funds
that are managed for other beneficiaries. And I think that
there is less oversight of those funds than there is of the
items that members of Congress add to your budgets.
So I would invite you to spend as much time looking at how
the people within the Executive Branch manage other people's
money and other people's property, and have them be as closely
supervised as how we handle the money that Congress thinks
ought to be allocated to items different from what the OMB
believes they should be in.
I think if you and I are going to have any unfortunate
words in the future, it is going to be over what we consider to
be Congressional priorities and what you consider Congressional
add-ons.
Ms. Dorn. Yes, sir, I take your point in that area and
hopefully we will not have as many disagreements. I guess one
of the strengths that I bring to this job is that I have spent
at least as much time in the last 20 years on this end of the
street as I have down on the other end of the street. It is
certainly not going to be for a lack of understanding of the
position that you take.
Relative to the trust funds and these enormous programs
that have enormous money associated with them, we have made an
effort to try and, for example, start to run down what is known
in the budget world as erroneous payments. Something like $20
billion goes out of the government every year to people who
have either died, do not exist, or never got the checks. We
will make an effort to try and spend more time on these areas
and hopefully make some progress in making the government and
the agencies and the trust funds more accountable.
Senator Stevens. Last, Senator Byrd and I carry normally,
when we are in session, a copy of the Constitution in our
pocket in order to answer people who question us about how we
handle our Committee's review of the budgets that you all
submit. I hope that you and your colleagues will read the
Constitution, too.
Thank you very much.
Ms. Dorn. Thank you.
Chairman Lieberman. In regard to this question of
occasionally disagreeing with Senator Stevens, I can tell you
from my own experience, it is a growth experience and I am sure
you will handle it well.
Senator Cochran.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR COCHRAN
Senator Cochran. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much.
First, I want to congratulate Ms. Dorn on the nomination to
be Deputy Director of the Office of Management and Budget. I
know this is a very challenging undertaking for you, but
knowing personally of your experiences as Assistant Secretary
of the Army for Civil Works, the Office of the Vice President,
and in various capacities here in the Senate, I am confident
that you have the background and experience and ability to
handle this job. So I do not have any questions of you along
that line.
I do sympathize with the additional hours that you are
probably going to have to spend in your job, though, with this
new title and these new responsibilities. I am particularly
thinking about your family seated behind you, Jim Whittinghill
and Caroline and Patrick. I am glad to be here today to extend
my greetings to them.
I think one of the things that may have been overlooked in
the President's agenda that he outlined when he assumed office
was to bring some real meaning to the word management to the
Office of Management and Budget in his outline of what he calls
the President's management agenda. Included in this is a
directive really to the agencies to restructure and to reduce
the number of managers and organizational layers in government.
To what extent do you expect that you will be personally
involved in supervising that or in following to be sure that
directive is carried out by the agencies?
Ms. Dorn. Senator, I expect that I am going to be spending
a lot of time in this area. These issues are not something that
you just send out a directive and then wait for it to magically
happen. Having served in a number of the agencies, I have
witnessed this sort of thing firsthand.
It takes a sustained concentrated effort to make changes in
governments. It is like turning the Queen Mary. It is going to
take a change in attitude.
I think the attitude in this administration starts with the
President on down. You may have read in the press that the
President, in meeting with the cabinet officers in December as
we wrapped up the budget, was carrying around copies of their
scorecards which I think made an impression on the members of
the cabinet and we hope that that attitude pervades the
agencies as well.
I think we will be spending time with the agencies, not on
just the budget, not on just the mid-session review and the run
up to the budget, but on a regular basis. There are a number of
councils and gatherings that OMB chairs that I expect to be a
part of. I can say that I share your view that we have got to
make some changes in this area and really sustain our effort.
It is not just a once a year exercise.
Senator Cochran. Well, from my point of view, we look
forward to working with you closely to help ensure the success
of this management agenda. I think it is a grand idea. I think
it is clearly appropriate for us to put more emphasis on the
management side of the old Budget Bureau, as Senator Stevens
reminded us it was called. And I know that with your skills and
experience, you will help make this into an agency that really
does carry out the President's agenda in a very aggressive and
successful way.
Ms. Dorn. Thank you, Senator. And I think that this
Committee deserves a lot of credit for making a start in this
area. As I have mentioned, a number of these management
initiatives really started with the Government Performance
Results Act, the act that Senator Stevens cited. And we really
need the help of this Committee to drive a number of these
changes, both from a legislative perspective and with the
agencies, as well.
Senator Cochran. Good luck to you.
Senator Stevens. Could I make just one comment and ask one
question?
In connection with the oversight of the Library of
Congress, I was appalled to find the number of people that were
leaving the Library at a very high level of government salary.
They have been there for years and they deserve that salary.
As they leave however, to acquire young people who have the
same educational credentials, the competition with the private
sector is just overwhelming. The level of our entry salaries is
not sufficient to acquire the best and the brightest any
longer. I think we have got to find some way to get into a
performance budgeting concept and to recognize that there are
people out there who, despite their young age, have the
abilities that we need to manage things like the Library of
Congress.
The structure of our current salary system is such that
there is no way to give inducements to these people to enter.
Even though their grades might be lower grades, but their
salary levels be commensurate with what they could achieve in
the private sector.
I would invite your attention and hope you would spend some
time on that. If we do not act within the next 2 years, I think
the Library of Congress loses about 40 percent of its people
who have the skills that we need, and we have no way to replace
them at the salary levels that are available.
I think it pervades government and I think you will find
that the problems of the inflexibility of the use of money to
obtain people, to fill the key spots in government, is one of
the great deterrents of really good management today. I hope
you will join us in looking at that.
Ms. Dorn. Senator, I hope we can work on that together. It
is an enormous challenge, particularly in areas like
information technology where the private sector gets college
graduates right out of college and sets them up and the
government never even has a shot at many of those people.
Your initiative on e-Government is not going to be very
successful if we do not have the right kind of people to manage
it.
One of the pieces of legislation that is pending in the
Congress is this Freedom to Manage package. One of the pieces
of it does give agencies some flexibility in providing bonuses
and better entry packages and other things. We will look
forward to working with the Committee to see if they can pass
some of these legislative authorities shortly. And as I said, I
am open to working with you and with the Director of OPM to see
if we can look at sort of the totality of Federal compensation
to see if improvements can be made.
Chairman Lieberman. Thanks, Senator Stevens, for that
important point. And thank you, Ms. Dorn. It just brings to
mind that we talked about the budget and management parts of
your work and of OMB. There is a natural focus on the budget.
Unfortunately, in the normal flow of events here, on
budgetary matters there tends to be a lot of sound and fury.
Some of it ends up being, unfortunately, partisan although in
the end we have got to get together to get the budget passed
and keep the government running.
But on the management questions, I think there is enormous
potential for bipartisan support and not a lot of sound and
fury but the opportunity to really accomplish quite a lot in
the areas that we have discussed with you today. So I hope we
can work on that together.
I thank you for your testimony. I thank your husband and
children for supporting you not only this morning but their
willingness to have you take on this work. Caroline and
Patrick, you have got two great role models of public servants
in your mom and dad. And you are going to learn some higher
math in the years ahead, as your mother carries out this
function.
Senator Cochran. Or the new math.
Chairman Lieberman. Yes, Senator Cochran corrected me and I
accept it, new math.
This completes the hearing. The record will remain open for
the rest of the day today for submission of written questions
for the nominee and any written statements for the official
record.
It is my intention to have a Committee vote on your
nomination, probably off the floor, sometime next week so we
can have you at work legitimately.
Senator Stevens. Mr. Chairman, Senator Thompson had four
short questions he would like to submit for the record.
Chairman Lieberman. Yes, indeed and I gather from his staff
that keeping the record open for the rest of the day will allow
him to do that.
I also want to thank Senator Cochran for his interest in
chairing the following confirmation hearing for Dan Blair and
John Howard, which will occur within a few moments. So I know
if any of you want to go anywhere, do not change the channel.
The Committee will stand in recess.
[Whereupon, at 10:18 a.m., the Committee was adjourned,
subject to the call of the Chair.]
A P P E N D I X
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