[Senate Hearing 107-94]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 107-94
EMPLOYMENT NEEDS OF AMISH YOUTH
=======================================================================
HEARING
before a
SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE
COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED SEVENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
SPECIAL HEARING
MAY 3, 2001--WASHINGTON, DC
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Appropriations
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COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS
TED STEVENS, Alaska, Chairman
THAD COCHRAN, Mississippi ROBERT C. BYRD, West Virginia
ARLEN SPECTER, Pennsylvania DANIEL K. INOUYE, Hawaii
PETE V. DOMENICI, New Mexico ERNEST F. HOLLINGS, South Carolina
CHRISTOPHER S. BOND, Missouri PATRICK J. LEAHY, Vermont
MITCH McCONNELL, Kentucky TOM HARKIN, Iowa
CONRAD BURNS, Montana BARBARA A. MIKULSKI, Maryland
RICHARD C. SHELBY, Alabama HARRY REID, Nevada
JUDD GREGG, New Hampshire HERB KOHL, Wisconsin
ROBERT F. BENNETT, Utah PATTY MURRAY, Washington
BEN NIGHTHORSE CAMPBELL, Colorado BYRON L. DORGAN, North Dakota
LARRY CRAIG, Idaho DIANNE FEINSTEIN, California
KAY BAILEY HUTCHISON, Texas RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois
MIKE DeWINE, Ohio TIM JOHNSON, South Dakota
MARY L. LANDRIEU, Louisiana
Steven J. Cortese, Staff Director
Lisa Sutherland, Deputy Staff Director
James H. English, Minority Staff Director
------
Subcommittee on Departments of Labor, Health and Human Services, and
Education, and Related Agencies
ARLEN SPECTER, Pennsylvania, Chairman
THAD COCHRAN, Mississippi TOM HARKIN, Iowa
JUDD GREGG, New Hampshire ERNEST F. HOLLINGS, South Carolina
LARRY CRAIG, Idaho DANIEL K. INOUYE, Hawaii
KAY BAILEY HUTCHISON, Texas HARRY REID, Nevada
TED STEVENS, Alaska HERB KOHL, Wisconsin
MIKE DeWINE, Ohio PATTY MURRAY, Washington
MARY L. LANDRIEU, Louisiana
ROBERT C. BYRD, West Virginia
(Ex officio)
Professional Staff
Bettilou Taylor
Mary Dietrich
Jim Sourwine
Ellen Murray (Minority)
Administrative Support
Correy Diviney
Carole Geagley (Minority)
C O N T E N T S
----------
Page
Opening statement of Senator Arlen Specter....................... 1
Statement of Hon. Joseph Pitts, U.S. Representative from
Pennsylvania................................................... 2
Prepared statement........................................... 4
Statement of Hon. Mark Souder, U.S. Representative from Indiana.. 5
Prepared statement........................................... 7
Statement of Thomas M. Markey, Acting Administrator, Wage and
Hour Division, Employment Standards Administration, U.S.
Department of Labor............................................ 10
Prepared statement........................................... 12
Statement of Christ Blank, chairman, Old Order Amish Steering
Committee, Kinzers, PA......................................... 15
Prepared statement........................................... 17
Statement of William Burkholder, owner, C.B. Hardwood Lumber Co.,
Centerville, PA................................................ 18
Prepared statement........................................... 20
Statement of Herman Bontrager, Secretary/Treasurer, National
Committee for Amish Religious Freedom.......................... 20
Prepared statement........................................... 22
Statement of Noah Byler.......................................... 27
Statement of John Byler.......................................... 28
EMPLOYMENT NEEDS OF AMISH YOUTH
----------
THURSDAY, MAY 3, 2001
U.S. Senate,
Subcommittee on Labor, Health and Human
Services, and Education, and Related Agencies,
Committee on Appropriations,
Washington, DC.
The subcommittee met at 9:30 a.m., in room SH-216, Hart
Senate Office Building, Hon. Arlen Specter (chairman)
presiding.
Present: Senator Specter.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR ARLEN SPECTER
Senator Specter. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. The
hearing of the Appropriations Subcommittee on Labor, Health and
Human Services, and Education will now proceed with the clock
striking 9:30.
At the outset, we welcome representatives from the Amish
who are here from not only Pennsylvania, but New York and Ohio.
We welcome the distinguished Congressman Joe Pitts, who will be
joined in a few minutes by Congressman Mark Souder from
Indiana.
Today's hearing involves legislation which has twice passed
the House of Representatives, after the introduction by and
support of Congressman Pitts, and similar legislation which has
been introduced in the Senate by this Senator to amend the Fair
Labor Standards Act to permit Amish youth, ages 14 to 18, to
work under adult supervision in sawmills.
This issue arises because Department of Labor regulations
ban the employment of minors from working in sawmill
operations. This poses a problem for Amish youth who finish
their formal education in the eighth grade and have very few
employment opportunities. The employment in the sawmills with
their families provides an opportunity for them to continue
their instruction in the workplace under adult supervision with
continuing guidance.
There has been opposition raised on constitutional grounds
that legislation might confer benefits only to youths who are
members of a religious sect, or division thereof, whose
established teachings do not permit formal education beyond the
eighth grade and that by conferring the benefit of working in a
sawmill only to adherence of certain religions, the Department
of Justice has contended that the bill appears to impermissibly
favor religion to irreligion. My own view is that it is
possible to have legislation which does not run afoul of the
Constitution, and we have proposed just that.
The Department of Labor, under the Clinton administration,
opposed both Congressman Pitt's bill and my bill, questioning
whether current regulations afford Amish minors equal
protection under the laws and raised some questions about
safety. I raised this issue yesterday with Secretary of Labor
Elaine Chao who appears more flexible than her predecessors,
and she has committed herself to studying the issue. It is my
view that unless we can get administrative relief from the
Department of Labor, legislation is entirely appropriate, and
we are convening today's hearings to pursue just that matter.
STATEMENT OF HON. JOSEPH PITTS, U.S. REPRESENTATIVE
FROM PENNSYLVANIA
Senator Specter. It is a pleasure to welcome my colleague
from Pennsylvania's 16th congressional district encompassing
Lancaster and Chester Counties. Congressman Joseph Pitts is a
third term Congressman holding a bachelor's degree from Ashbury
College, a Captain in the Air Force, a school teacher, a small
business owner. He has had a distinguished record in the U.S.
House of Representatives, serving on the Energy and Commerce
Committee and on the International Relations Committee.
Congressman Pitts, it is a pleasure to welcome you here and
we look forward to your testimony. Our general rule is to turn
the lights on at 5 minutes, but not for Congressmen.
Mr. Pitts. Thank you, Senator. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Today your subcommittee is addressing an issue very
important to the Amish community who reside in over 20 States
in this country. I want to thank you for holding this important
hearing.
People around the world know of the Old Order Amish as a
people who till their land and direct their lives with faith,
simplicity, and discipline. Traditionally Amish communities are
centered around the family farm which requires input from the
whole family. While caring for crops and animals, Amish parents
show their children how to make a living without exposure to
outside influences that contradict their beliefs.
However, development pressures and the soaring price of
farmland have forced the Amish to look for alternatives to
farming, and now Amish can be found in small businesses making
raw lumber, clocks, wagons, cabinetry, quilts, and many other
things.
Therefore, as they did on the family farm, the Amish now
wish to have their youth work with them in these vocational
settings. Typically the youth will learn a trade after the
completion of Amish school, which is equivalent to an eighth
grade education.
The Amish view this work as part of their schooling since
they often accompany a parent to the workplace, and they call
this learning by doing.
Unfortunately, these small Amish-owned businesses have
received costly fines from the Department of Labor for having
their young adults work alongside their fathers and uncles,
even in family businesses.
Mr. Chairman, recently an Amish businessman in my
congressional district was fined $8,000 for having his own
child in the front office of his business. This teenager was
simply learning to use the cash register alongside her father.
She was far from harm's way.
These actions by the Department of Labor have severely
threatened the lifestyle and religion of this respected and
humble community.
The Amish expect diligence, responsibility, and respect
from their youth. They do not contribute to the social ills of
our society, and they do not accept any assistance from
Government programs. Our Government should not interfere with
this humble community.
Several of my colleagues, along with our Amish
constituents, met with Department of Labor officials several
times over the past 3 to 4 years to find a solution to this
problem. Unfortunately, we received nothing but negative
responses from the Department of Labor. I am hopeful that with
a new administration in the White House, we will receive a more
positive response this year.
The Amish have a very unique situation. They complete their
formal schooling at the end of eighth grade. They do not have
the benefit of shop or vo-tech which my son and our youth have
in high school. But they want their young people to learn a
work ethic and a trade.
We have a responsibility to evaluate the Amish in that
light, and that is why I, along with numerous other members,
last Congress introduced H.R. 221, legislation to address the
employment needs of the Amish youth.
H.R. 221 of the 106th Congress passed under suspension on
March 3, 1999. The same bill, H.R. 4257, passed under
suspension in the 105th Congress on September 28, 1998. It has
bipartisan support in the House. However, as you know, this
legislation has not moved in the Senate.
This narrow legislation will only allow young adults of the
Amish faith to accompany a parent or a relative to work in
places of business where machinery is used to process wood
products. Our bill requires that the young adult have adult
supervision. It prohibits them from operating the machinery. It
provides numerous safety protections for these individuals.
Mr. Chairman, many communities like Lancaster County, PA,
of my district, greatly appreciate the heritage and work ethic
of the Amish, and we wish to keep them as a part of our
communities. However, if the Amish continue to be attacked by
the Federal or State governments, they will be driven out of
our communities. Their strong heritage will be undermined by
governmental interference.
PREPARED STATEMENT
So, I urge the Senate to protect the Amish heritage. Mr.
Chairman, I am very grateful for your assistance and for this
hearing, and I am hopeful that we can work together to find a
solution to this problem.
Thank you for inviting me to testify at the hearing.
[The statement follows:]
Prepared Statement of Rep. Joe Pitts
Mr. Chairman, today your subcommittee is addressing an issue
important to the Amish community who reside in over 20 states in this
country. I thank you for holding this important hearing.
People around the world know of the Old Order Amish as a people who
till their land and direct their lives with faith, simplicity and
discipline.
Traditionally, Amish communities are centered around the family
farm, which requires input from the whole family. While caring for
crops and animals, Amish parents show their children how to make a
living without exposure to outside influences that contradict their
beliefs.
However, increasing development pressures, and the soaring price of
farmland, have forced the Amish to look for alternatives to farming.
Now Amish can be found in small businesses making raw lumber, clocks,
wagons, cabinetry, and quilts.
Therefore, as they did on the family farm, the Amish now wish to
have their youth work with them in these vocational settings.
Typically, the youth will learn a trade after the completion of Amish
school, or eighth grade.
The Amish view this work as part of their schooling; since they
often accompany a parent to the workplace.
They call this ``learning by doing.''
Unfortunately, these small, Amish-owned businesses have received
costly fines from the Department of Labor for having their young adults
work alongside their fathers and uncles, even in family businesses.
Mr. Chairman, recently an Amish businessman in my congressional
district was fined eight thousand dollars for having his own child in
the front office of his business. This teenager was simply learning to
use the cash register alongside her father. She was far from harm's
way.
These actions by the Department of Labor have severely threatened
the lifestyle and religion of this respected and humble community.
The Amish expect diligence, responsibility, and respect from their
youth. They do not contribute to the social ills of our society, and
they do not accept any assistance from government programs.
Our government should not interfere with this humble community.
Several of my colleagues, along with our Amish constituents, met
with Department of Labor officials several times over the past two
years to find a solution to this problem.
Unfortunately, we received nothing but negative responses from the
Department of Labor. I am hopeful that, with a new Administration in
the White House, we will receive a more positive response this year.
The Amish have a very unique situation. They complete their formal
schooling at the end of eighth grade. They do not have the benefit of
``shop'' and vo-tech our youth have in high school.
We have a responsibility to evaluate the Amish in that light.
That is why I, along with numerous other members, last Congress
introduced H.R. 221, legislation to address the employment needs of
Amish youth.
H.R. 221 of the 106th Congress passed under suspension on March 3,
1999. The same bill, H.R. 4257, passed under suspension in the 105th
Congress on September 28, 1998. It has bipartisan support in the House.
However, as you know, this legislation has not moved in the Senate.
This narrow legislation will only allow young adults of the Amish
faith to accompany a parent or relative to work in places of businesses
where machinery is used to process wood products. My legislation
requires that the young adult have adult supervision, it prohibits them
from operating machinery, and it provides numerous safety protections
for these individuals.
Mr. Chairman, many communities, like Lancaster County,
Pennsylvania, of my district, greatly appreciate the heritage and work
ethic of the Amish, and we wish to keep them as a part of our
communities.
However, if the Amish continue to be attacked by the State and
Federal government, they will be driven out of our communities.
Their strong heritage will be undermined by governmental
interference.
I urge the Senate to protect the Amish heritage.
Mr. Chairman, I am hopeful we can work together to find a solution
to this problem.
Thank you for inviting me to this hearing.
Senator Specter. Thank you very much, Congressman Pitts.
STATEMENT OF HON. MARK SOUDER, U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM
INDIANA
Senator Specter. We now turn to Congressman Mark Souder who
is in his fourth term, representing Indiana's 4th district. He
is chairman of the Government Reform Subcommittee on Criminal
Justice, Drug Policy and Human Resources, and also serves on
the House Committee on Education and the Workforce, as well as
the Natural Resources Committee. Congressman Souder holds a
bachelor's degree from Indiana University at Fort Wayne and an
M.B.A. from the University of Notre Dame. Welcome, Congressman
Souder, and we look forward to your testimony.
Mr. Souder. Thank you very much. I apologize for being
late. The chairman called an emergency meeting on the education
bill that we are marking up.
Senator Specter. Congressman Souder, I know how busy you
are in the House. On a Thursday, it is tough to be every place.
We are grateful to you for being here. We proceeded in the
interest of time, and Congressman Pitts agreed, in your
absence, as your de facto agent. We are pleased to have you
here.
Mr. Souder. Well, thank you. I am going to just make a few
remarks, if you can put my written remarks in the record.
Senator Specter. Without objection, they will be made a
part of the record. We will be interested in hearing your
extemporaneous comments.
Mr. Souder. We share many things in Pennsylvania and
Indiana, including my family's heritage. There is a Soudersberg
just east of Lancaster and a Souderton just north of
Philadelphia which has a number of my distant relatives. My
great, great grandpa was Amish, left when he turned 18 and
helped form the denomination that I grew up in in Indiana. I
represent the 2nd, 7th, and 10th largest Amish settlements, the
areas in LaGrange-Shipshewnna, Grabill-Harlan, and Berne-Geneva
area, and in redistricting. It looks like I am going to get
another of the areas in the Middlebury and Nappanee areas.
All those settlements are Old Order, but I also even in the
Old Order settlements have a lot of topless Amish and non-
topless Amish. In other words, unlike the liberal Amish in
Pennsylvania, many of our Amish do not have tops on their
buggies and cannot marry the Amish who have tops on their
buggies because we have multiple different groups that are very
conservative.
It is very hard for them to maintain their lifestyle. The
lands in Indiana, like in Pennsylvania and Ohio, which are the
largest settlements, are increasingly under pressure from the
growth of the cities and suburbs. As the families subdivide and
save up all their earnings to get a little bit more farmland,
they can barely exist.
Generally speaking, the first place they will turn is
woodworking. Often the woodworking will begin just in a barn
while they are trying to farm in the morning and farm in the
evening, but make a little additional income during the day so
they can maintain their lifestyle. As the land gets more
expensive, if they do not have that option, we have had some go
up into the rural parts of Michigan, but they are being crowded
there now too with tourism, or in other parts of the United
States. Some are having to flee overseas. And a country of
religious liberty, in fact, through good intentions in many
cases, has put a severe strain on those who will not follow our
way toward mechanization and automation of everything.
I think that the compromise that we have is reasonable, as
I have visited many of these facilities in my area. As
Congressman Pitts said, the kids leave school, and part of
their extended family is then to train them in a vocation, both
in farming and in supplemental ways to earn an income in
woodworking, generally speaking, making wood pallets or chests
or other sorts of woodworking items, furniture.
They do not and they are not allowed to actually work the
machinery. The question is, particularly in these smaller sized
facilities, but even a little bit larger, is it even practical
to say that when these kids are, in effect, doing vocational
education, that they cannot even be in the same building? Part
of the reason they do this is to have the extended family to
work together.
I would also argue, as Congressman Pitts has said, that not
only do we not see the injuries, but that we see a group of
people who have a totally different lifestyle who are not
exposed to other risks that many of our children have. For
example, they are not out racing cars.
Now, we have had, in my small hometown of 700, one case
where two Amish kids were drag racing buggies, but that puts a
whole different sense on the risk to them and the community. If
they overturn, they might skin a leg.
We also had one who violated their culture, and he was
drinking too much. He took his buggy up on a sidewalk and one
lady got scared.
But this is a whole different mentality than the rest of us
are used to. We do not see kids in the Amish community dying of
drug overdoses, of hot-rodding around and dying and doing other
dangerous activities.
What we have is something that is essential to their being
able to continue, the woodworking. In effect, if we do not make
these changes, putting their culture at risk and their ability
to function in our society--the Amish position is not, as I
often have heard, that whoever is behind the wheel of an
automobile is the devil. The devil is behind the wheel. It is
not that they cannot get a ride from somebody else, and they
can contract, as I am sure you have seen in Pennsylvania.
The philosophy is that they should go slower because idle
time is the devil's workshop. They believe in their culture
that it is important that they work basically from sunup to
sundown, and if they do not have these activities to keep
people busy and the extended family, that is how you get into
evil. They are not against the telephone per se. They are
against the misuse of the telephone and the gossip.
Now, some people have asked me, when we have debated this
bill in the Education and Workforce Committee, does this not
give the Amish a competitive advantage? I would say if you are
willing to go without a telephone, if you are willing to go
without a car and air conditioning and you want to join the
Amish faith, it is not that you get a competitive advantage,
you give up so many other things. They are scraping to barely
make it.
PREPARED STATEMENT
We did a study years ago when I worked for Congressman
Coats and then Senator Coats. The areas that are the poorest in
this country have the least usage of food stamps and AFDC, 4 of
those top 10 counties are Amish. They do not need more money.
All they are asking to do is, as long as they are not bothering
others and as long as they are not endangering the children
directly, please let them exist in this society because not
everybody--I admit I am more of a materialist, but not
everybody should have to be to be able to exist in America.
I yield back my time.
[The statement follows:]
Prepared Statement of Rep. Mark Souder
Mr. Chairman and Members of the Committee, I appreciate this
opportunity to testify today on the employment needs of Amish youth. I
support the continued efforts of my colleagues from Pennsylvania, Mr.
Specter and Mr. Pitts, to pursue a remedy to a problem that jeopardizes
the culture and religion of a segment of society that asks so little
from government: the Amish.
I am not a passive observer on these issues. Not only do I
represent the 3rd, 7th, and 10th largest ``old order'' Amish
settlements in the country (about 20,000 altogether), but I am a direct
descendent of one of the first Amish settlers in Northeast Indiana. In
1846, my great-great grandfather settled in the Hoosier state. While he
left the faith and culture around the turn of the century, I still have
relatives who continue to practice the Amish tradition. Furthermore, I
was raised in a small town--Grabill, Indiana--which is surrounded by
Amish families. Growing up, I had the unique opportunity to witness
first-hand the traditions of this religious and cultural community.
I have been monitoring this issue very closely since it was first
brought to my attention by Congressman Pitts in early 1997. Because
Amish practice includes instilling a work ethic early in life, Amish
children end their formal schooling after eighth grade and participate
in state-approved apprenticeship programs in such fields as wood
working and farming. In recent years several lumber facilities in
Pennsylvania were heavily fined by the Department of Labor for
employing Amish teenagers, aged 14-17 years. Some of the cases in which
the Labor Department assessed fines involved 14- and 15-year-olds who
were working in a wood shop stacking objects and sweeping floors and
were not in close proximity to machinery. Since these events were
brought to our attention, several of my colleagues and I have met with
Labor officials and Amish representatives from Pennsylvania to discuss
this issue. These meetings were called to discuss potential
administrative remedies that would permit Amish youth to work with
heavy machinery for eight hours a day. Unfortunately, while the
Department of Labor officials appeared at initial meetings to be
willing to find an administrative compromise, DoL officials later
stated that administrative remedy was not possible based on current
law.
This impasse is what brings us here today to consider these issues.
Current law must be clarified in order to continue the Amish tradition
of providing teenagers with a practical education--one that allows them
to work alongside their relatives and church family. In the 106th
Congress, I was a cosponsor of H.R. 221, which passed the House of
Representatives by unanimous consent. This bill, introduced by
Congressman Pitts, would have allowed Amish teenagers to continue to do
certain jobs where machinery is used to process wood products. I
believe this bill was a fair compromise, representing nearly 18 months
of negotiations with the Department of Labor, and I will support this
bill again when it is reintroduced by Congressman Pitts in the House of
Representatives this year.
Simply put, this bill would allow Amish teenagers aged 14 through
18 to continue to work in woodworking facilities while including sound
provisions to protect these young workers. As a father of three
children--two of whom are of working age--I would never advocate for a
bill that would place teenagers in an unduly unsafe work environment.
Safety provisions have been carefully considered and were included in
this legislation. The bill would require that these young workers be
supervised by adults who know and care about them. It also would
prohibit Amish youth from working with power-driven machinery and
require these teenagers to be protected from flying debris, excessive
noise, and sawdust.
At the same time, I believe this bill would preserve the
traditional way of life of the Amish, whose youth finish their formal
education by the eighth grade and then turn to a different style of
religious, cultural, and ``vocational'' education. This bill would
protect a truly endangered religion and culture that cannot afford to
be trampled on by federal micro-management. As many of us understand,
the Amish way of life is largely self-sufficient and agricultural. Such
a lifestyle limits their interaction with the government.
Farming is becoming an increasingly difficult livelihood for many
Amish--unplowed land is difficult to find and increasingly expensive,
and competing with industrial farms that use heavy equipment is
overwhelming to small Amish family farms. Many Amish families have been
forced into corollary industries like arts & crafts, woodworking, home
building, pallet building, and furniture making. Woodworking is a
historic byproduct of agriculture that can be done as a local industry.
I believe the federal government should not unduly micro manage the
Amish woodworking environment. To do so could force into extinction a
culture and religion that is fundamentally important to this country.
The Amish represent a unique segment of Americans that rely on
self-sufficiency rather than assistance from government. They are a
peace-loving people who came to America in the Anabaptist tradition to
escape government regulation and persecution, so they could practice
their religion and faith without government interference. Government
bureaucracy threatens the Amish people's very way of life. The Amish
are an important part of our heritage in northeast Indiana, and I
believe we must do what we can to protect their religious beliefs and
practices. If we fail to do so, we run the risk of forcing these
hardworking, family-oriented people to leave our communities in search
of religious freedom elsewhere. Let's not hinder their ability to
continue providing for themselves and their families, or to maintain
their cultural and religiously-based ``learn by doing''
apprenticeships.
Again, thank you for inviting me to testify on this issue today.
Senator Specter. Thank you very much, Congressman Souder
and Congressman Pitts. I think that the factors which you have
testified to really go to the issue of freedom of religion
contrasted with a violation of the Establishment Clause on any
special considerations here.
I am intrigued, Congressman Souder, by your comment that a
practice of not marrying where the different families have
different style carriages, one with tops and one without tops.
Will you amplify that?
Mr. Souder. Yes. In the community, the really strict Old
Order, there are a range of Amish. They even have what they
call Black Car Amish or King's Amish. Those are really
Mennonites.
For example, in the Lancaster area and going north from
Lancaster, mostly you see the carriages and the tops on the
buggies. But in my hometown area and in Berne and Geneva and in
southwest Indiana, they are not allowed to have anything over
their heads. They have added boxes in the back because kids in
the English community, as they would say, have rocked them.
There was a baby killed in one Amish buggy because kids were
just throwing stones at the buggy and a baby was killed. So,
they have allowed to put boxes on the back now, even in the Old
Order.
But part of the philosophy even in the most conservative
Amish group----
Senator Specter. Boxes on the back?
Mr. Souder. In other words, in a buggy you will have a seat
where the people who are driving the buggy sit, but there is
usually a storage area in the back. Now they have a box that
comes up over the back seat where small children----
Senator Specter. Head level to stop a lateral object from
striking them in the head?
Mr. Souder. Yes, which is a pathetic commentary. I do not
think any of the deaths have been on purpose, but there have
been a number of them because it is fun for other kids who are
out partying or whatever to throw stones at the Amish because
they are different, much like other groups in our society. It
is not just kind of the traditional groups you hear. The Amish
suffer this persecution all the time. They are laughed at
because of the way they dress. They are mocked because often
they do not speak English as much or they are not supposed to
to outsiders.
But I asked one of my friends, I said, do you not get cold,
or do you just kind of get used to it by not having any top on
your buggy? He said, we have colds all winter long. The reason
they sacrifice with that is that part of the assumption is that
if you do not have a top on your buggy and it is cold out or
hot out, you are going to think before you go into town, before
you go gallivanting around and getting in trouble because there
is some uncomfortability to it. It is usually serious tasks.
These are a serious people, and that is the philosophy.
Senator Specter. How about the marriage issue?
Mr. Souder. The marriage issue outside their faith do you
mean?
Senator Specter. Well, no. You had made a comment, as I
understood it----
Mr. Souder. Oh, they cannot marry. Much like a very
conservative Old Order Amish who does not allow tops--and each
bishop gets to set the guidelines for their subgroup. They
cannot marry the more liberal Amish any more than, say, by
traditional doctrine, a Catholic could marry a Mennonite. In
other words, it is almost as rigid a differentiation in some of
the subgroups of Amish.
Senator Specter. And the differentiation would apply even
if the distinction is having a top on the carriage.
Mr. Souder. Yes, although generally speaking, that is a
sign that--for example, in my Grabill-Harlan community, they
cannot have a pay phone on their porch, which in parts of
Pennsylvania you can have a pay phone on your porch. They can
have one at a corner, but the assumption is that the closer
that phone gets to the house, the more gossip you are going to
do. Therefore, if you are going to walk out into the cold and
make a call, it is probably going to be a serious call as
opposed to just kind of gossiping about your neighbors.
I used the topless because it is the most dramatic thing
that outsiders can see, but it is usually a sign of this
creeping liberalism, as they would say, that would also put a
phone on your porch. It might even have a few colors. You can
see in some parts of Pennsylvania, some Amish have a little bit
of the brighter purple shirts as opposed to the pure white or
dark blue.
Senator Specter. Well, it certainly illustrates the views
and convictions of the Amish which they are entitled to. They
are very strict, as they choose to be, about standards of
conduct.
Well, it is a very interesting matter. My sense is that
when it is better understood in the Senate, we will have a
little better luck getting the legislation through.
As you gentlemen know, this is an appropriations
subcommittee, so we cannot mark up a bill and send it in, but I
am turning in my mind whether we might offer this as an
amendment to the education bill or whether we may be able to
persuade the authorizers to have a markup and carry it out. So,
we will give it very careful attention.
Congressman Pitts?
Mr. Pitts. Mr. Chairman, my son, when he was 14, had shop
class in high school and they had 15 or 16 students in the shop
class. He made our home a beautiful table using a band saw and
power tools. There was one teacher in that shop class.
Now, we are not asking, with the legislation, that these
young people be even permitted to use the power tools, just be
in the vicinity, sweep sawdust, glue lumber, fill out
paperwork, learn the work ethic of the trade, but not actually
use the power tools. We have even put common sense safety
precautions in here, like barriers, and they are supervised by
an adult and protected from wood particles or other flying
debris. So, we think that this is a very good compromise.
Senator Specter. Well, thank you very much. That leads us
very naturally into the representative of the Department of
Labor. We thank you very much for coming, Congressman Pitts,
Congressman Souder, and good luck on your agenda today. I know
you are very busy in the House.
STATEMENT OF THOMAS M. MARKEY, ACTING ADMINISTRATOR,
WAGE AND HOUR DIVISION, EMPLOYMENT
STANDARDS ADMINISTRATION, U.S. DEPARTMENT
OF LABOR
Senator Specter. Our next witness is Mr. Tom Markey, Acting
Administrator of the Wage and Hour Administration, Department
of Labor. Mr. Markey provides leadership in the administration
and the enforcement of a variety of labor standards that
enhance the welfare and protect the rights of the Nation's
workers. He served as a 1st Lieutenant in the Army and holds a
bachelor's degree from Rutger's University. Thank you for
joining us, Mr. Markey.
In accordance with our practice, any statement will be made
a part of the record in full, and we will ask you to limit your
comments to 5 minutes as our lights will record the timing. You
may proceed.
Mr. Markey. Mr. Chairman, thank you for the invitation to
appear today to discuss the Fair Labor Standards Act child
labor provisions and the Department of Labor's implementing
regulations. Specifically, I will discuss how the current
statutory and regulatory provisions apply to youth employment
in lumber and woodworking occupations. I would also like to
talk about our review of two proposals previously suggested by
the Amish community to employ its youth in sawmilling and
woodworking industries.
Let me first affirm the Department's respect for the
cultural and religious traditions of the Amish community. We
recognize the challenges the community faces in preserving
these traditions and way of life.
As their faith prescribes, Amish children end their formal
education upon completion of the eighth grade. Thereafter, they
are exempt from State laws making school attendance compulsory.
For this reason, the Department permits Amish youth who have
completed the eighth grade and are at least 14 years of age to
work more hours than are normally permitted 14- and 15-year-
olds and to work during traditional school hours. This is a
longstanding accommodation made by the Department.
Following the end of their formal education, Amish youth
begin working alongside their families and others in the
community. In the past, many Amish children worked on a family
farm. However, with farmland becoming scarce and expensive,
these opportunities have declined. Many of the young people now
transition to non-farm occupations like woodworking. As I will
discuss, however, the employment of youth in sawmill and
woodworking industries is, like many other industries, limited
by the statutory and regulatory requirements of the FLSA.
The FLSA specifically prohibits minors under the age of 16
from working in manufacturing. This includes sawmill and
woodworking industries. The statute also directs the Secretary
of Labor to prohibit the employment of minors under the age of
18 in occupations found to be particularly hazardous or
detrimental to their health. The Secretary makes these
determinations in Hazardous Occupation Orders issued through
the rulemaking process. There are currently 17 orders in non-
agricultural industries, and two are of particular concern.
HO No. 4 prohibits minors under 18 years of age from
assuming any occupation in a sawmill. Not only are the tasks in
these areas too dangerous for young workers, the areas
themselves are considered too dangerous. This order does,
however, contain a limited exception which would permit 16- and
17-year-olds to perform tasks such as cleaning up the yard and
working in offices and repair or maintenance shops that are not
in the sawmill building. 14- and 15-year-olds may only work in
offices and only if the work does not entail entering the
sawmill building.
HO Order No. 5 prohibits minors under the age of 18 from
operating and assisting to operate most power-driven
woodworking machines. Until they reach the age of 18, young
workers can only operate machines or tools not prohibited by
the order and can carry out such tasks as moving materials
around and handling or shipping lumber products. 14- and 15-
year-olds employed by the woodworking operation may only work
in the offices.
In 1966, the Department had an enforcement effort in
western Pennsylvania and found child labor violations in
sawmills. Three of the establishments investigated were Amish-
owned and many others employed Amish youth.
Following these investigations, the Wage and Hour Division
of the Department met with members of the Old Order Amish and
their congressional representatives to discuss a request for an
accommodation that would permit Amish youth to work in the
sawmill and other woodworking industries. Departmental
representatives explained the statutory mandate that youth
under 16 may not be employed in manufacturing, the child labor
hazardous orders in question, the basis for these orders, and
the Pennsylvania law prohibiting minors under 18 from work
involving woodworking equipment and saws. At that time, the
Department made no specific accommodation but did offer
compliance assistance and outreach to the Amish community.
In 1997, at the request of congressional representatives,
the Department explored the feasibility of two specific
proposals to allow 16- and 17-year-olds to work in sawmills.
The first proposal would have allowed 16- and 17-year-olds to
work in the sawmill building as long as they remained at least
150 feet away from the equipment. The Department decided and
continues to believe that such a rule would be very difficult
to administer. It would be difficult to substantiate whether or
how often any distance rule was observed. Moreover, it would be
difficult for the employer to comply because youth would likely
be called to approach the machinery----
Senator Specter. Mr. Markey, your time has expired. I
believe the staff told you it would be 5 minutes. Your full
statement will be part of the record. Could you summarize the
balance?
Mr. Markey. Yes, I will.
PREPARED STATEMENT
The injury rates in these occupations are extremely high.
They are double that in all other industries. Because of that,
with young workers' inexperience, smaller size, immaturity, and
lack of training, it would be very difficult for the Department
to establish a regulatory record that would support a change in
the existing hazardous occupation orders in light of the
identified hazards.
[The statement follows:]
Prepared Statement of Thomas M. Markey
Mr. Chairman and Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the
invitation to appear today to discuss the Fair Labor Standards Act
(FLSA) child labor provisions and the Department of Labor's
implementing regulations. Specifically, I will discuss how the current
statutory and regulatory provisions apply to youth employment in lumber
and woodworking occupations. I would also like to talk about our review
of two proposals previously suggested by the Old Order Amish community
to employ its youth in the sawmilling and woodworking industries.
Let me first affirm the Department's respect for the cultural and
religious traditions of the Amish community. We recognize the
challenges the community faces in preserving these traditions and way
of life.
As their faith prescribes, Amish children end their formal
education upon completion of the eighth grade. Thereafter, they are
exempt from state laws making school attendance compulsory. For this
reason, the Department permits Amish youth who have completed the
eighth grade and are at least 14 years of age to work more hours than
are normally permitted 14- and 15-year-olds and to work during
traditional school hours. This is a longstanding accommodation made by
the Department.
Following the end of their formal education, Amish youth begin
working alongside their families and others in their community. These
early work experiences allow them to become self-reliant within the
community and teach them the values associated with a positive work
ethic. In the past, many Amish children worked on a family farm.
However, with farmland becoming scarce and expensive, the opportunities
for Amish children to work on a family farm have declined. Many of the
young people who want to remain with their families now transition to
non-farm occupations like woodworking. As I will discuss, however, the
employment of youth in the sawmill and woodworking industries is, like
many other industries, limited by the statutory and regulatory
requirements of the FLSA.
FLSA CHILD LABOR PROVISIONS
Mr. Chairman, the FLSA specifically prohibits minors under the age
of 16 from working in manufacturing, which includes the sawmill and
woodworking industries. The statute also directs the Secretary of Labor
to prohibit the employment of minors under the age of 18 in occupations
found to be particularly hazardous or detrimental to the health or
well-being of these young workers. The Secretary makes these
determinations in Hazardous Occupation Orders issued through the
rulemaking process. There are currently 17 Orders in non-agricultural
industries, and two are of particular concern for this issue.
Hazardous Occupations Order No. 4 prohibits minors under 18 years
of age from assuming any occupation in the sawmill itself, the log pond
area, or the log storage yard. Not only are the tasks performed in
these areas too dangerous for young workers, the areas themselves are
too dangerous. The Hazardous Occupation Order does, however, contain a
limited exception which would permit 16- and 17-year olds to perform
tasks such as cleaning up the yard, and working in offices and repair
or maintenance shops that are not in the sawmill building.
Similarly, fourteen and 15-year-olds may work in the offices of
sawmills only if such work does not entail entering the sawmill
building.
Hazardous Occupations Order No. 5 prohibits minors under the age of
18 from operating, assisting to operate, setting-up, adjusting,
repairing, oiling or cleaning most power-driven woodworking machines.
Until they reach the age of 18, young workers can operate machines or
tools not prohibited by the Order and can carry out tasks such as
moving materials around and handling or shipping of lumber products.
However, the safeguards put in place by Hazardous Occupations Order No.
4 prohibit them from performing these tasks specifically in sawmills.
Fourteen- and fifteen-year-olds employed by woodworking operations
may work only in the offices, where they are permitted to operate most
office machines.
The Fair Labor Standards Act limits work hours for fourteen- and
fifteen-year-olds. Normally, such youth are prohibited from any
employment during school hours and, on school days, they are limited to
working 3 hours per day and then only up to a total of 18 hours in a
school week. However, as I mentioned earlier, Amish children of this
age group who have been exempted from their state's compulsory school
attendance laws may work during normal school hours.
ISSUE
A 1996 enforcement effort in Western Pennsylvania sawmills found
many child labor violations. Three of the establishments investigated
were Amish-owned and many others employed Amish youth. Following these
investigations, the Wage and Hour Division began meeting with members
of the Old Order Amish and their Congressional representatives to
discuss a request for an accommodation that would permit Amish youth to
work in the sawmill and other woodworking industries. Those discussions
focused on the statutory and regulatory requirements. Departmental
representatives explained the statutory mandate that youth under 16 may
not be employed in manufacturing; the child labor Hazardous Occupation
Orders in question; the basis for these orders; and the Pennsylvania
State law prohibiting minors under 18 from work involving woodworking
equipment and saws. At that time, the Department made no specific
accommodation, but did offer compliance assistance and outreach to the
Amish community.
In 1997, at the request of Congressional representatives, the
Department explored the feasibility of two specific proposals to allow
16- and 17-year-olds to work in sawmills. The first proposal would have
allowed 16- and 17-year-olds to work in the sawmill building as long as
they remained at least 150 feet away from the sawmill equipment. The
Department decided, and continues to believe, that such a rule would be
very difficult to administer. It would be difficult to substantiate
whether or how often any distance rule was observed. Moreover, it would
be difficult for employers to comply because Amish youth would likely
be called upon to approach the machinery while performing non-equipment
related tasks or receiving instructions, putting them at risk of injury
by the equipment or by projectiles from the equipment. More
importantly, this rule would not be feasible in most Amish sawmills.
These sawmills typically have such compact operations that any worker
who must stay 150 feet away from the equipment would be limited to
working outside of the building.
The second suggested remedy would have allowed 16- and 17-year-olds
to work in a physically separate part of the sawmill building. This
proposal likewise did not seem feasible. Based on visits to
representative sawmills, there are no apparent operations that could
take place in a separate walled-off room within a sawmill.
Even at 150 feet away from the equipment or in a physically
separate part of a sawmill building, youths may still be exposed to
some danger. Hazardous Occupations Order No. 4 was explicitly based not
just on hazards from the equipment, but on hazards inherent in the
sawmill operations, such as falling lumber.
The injury rates in these industries are high. Sawmills are
dangerous places to work, even for adults. Between 1995 and 1999, an
average of 25 workers a year were fatally injured on-the-job in
sawmills nationwide. Most were killed when they were either struck by
an object or caught in a piece of equipment. The rate of injury in the
lumber and wood products industry, which includes sawmills, is likewise
high. In 1999, non-fatal injuries occurred at a rate of 12.5 per 100
full-time workers, over twice the national average for all industries
(5.9 per 100 full-time workers). A five year average of non-fatal
injuries and illness in sawmills suggests nearly 8,000 workers annually
suffer injuries severe enough to warrant a day away from work.
Young workers' inexperience, smaller size, immaturity, and lack of
training make employment in this industry even more dangerous for
children. These factors are that much more significant for 14- and 15-
year-olds. Even an adult presence in the workplace cannot always
protect children from the split-second mistake that could cost them a
finger, a hand, or worse. Establishing a regulatory record that would
support a change in the existing Hazardous Occupation Orders--in light
of identified industry hazards--would present a difficult challenge.
CONCLUSION
The Department is always happy to work with the Amish community so
that it fully understands child labor obligations and their basis, and
is fully aware of options on safe and legal opportunities for employing
young people. For example, 16- and 17-year-olds may perform many
woodworking tasks, like assembling furniture and sanding wood pieces,
using traditional hand-powered tools.
Mr. Chairman, any accommodation made to address this issue--whether
statutory or administrative--must be accomplished in a way that
respects the cultural traditions of the Amish and protects youths from
hazardous work.
We are prepared to evaluate any suggestions, including legislation,
that you or other Subcommittee members may have for accommodating the
needs of the Amish community while ensuring that youth are employed in
circumstances that--as required by law--are not hazardous to their
health or well-being.
We agree that work experience can be beneficial for young people,
and we will help you explore opportunities for legal and safe
employment of Amish youth. Thank you for the invitation to testify
today and I would be pleased to answer any questions.
Senator Specter. Mr. Markey, let me ask you about the
legislation which I proposed, which would allow 14- to 18-year-
olds to perform limited duties such as sweeping, stacking wood,
and writing orders with safety provisions which prohibit youths
from operating machinery and requiring the use of eye and body
protection. What would the dangers be if the activities were so
limited?
Mr. Markey. Well, first, with regard to 14- and 15-year-
olds--oh, you are talking about legislation that would change
it.
Senator Specter. Yes.
Mr. Markey. The dangers would be projectiles probably and
falling lumber piles. In the tight areas of sawmills, with
forklifts and such, there is a possibility----
Senator Specter. Projectiles?
Mr. Markey. Wood projectiles usually, chips from the
sawing.
Senator Specter. Perhaps that could be accommodated by an
additional requirement of being a certain distance from the
saw?
Mr. Markey. We had representatives look at some of these
sawmills, and the areas are not that large, surely not 150
feet. I think these projectiles----
Senator Specter. Well, a projectile is not going to go 150
feet. What is the maximum distance a projectile would go?
Mr. Markey. I really do not know that, sir.
Senator Specter. Well, would you find that out? Make a
determination as to where the concern is as to projectiles.
What I would like to see us do--Secretary Chao testified
yesterday. I think this may well be a matter to handle
administratively, but if it cannot be handled administratively,
then it is a matter for congressional action. Congress may not
pass it.
You raise a specific issue on projectiles. I would ask you
to go back and delineate the scope of that problem so we might
find a way to solve it.
Mr. Markey. We will do that, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Specter. Any other specific danger that you see
beyond projectiles? You say falling?
Mr. Markey. Falling lumber piles, yes.
Senator Specter. Well, we could write a provision in about
not being near falling lumber piles. If you are talking about
sweeping and writing orders, you are in a pretty safe line.
I would like you to take a look at the legislative
proposals, what has passed the House and what is in the Senate
bill, and if you can identify other dangers, let us try to work
on ways of solving them. That is what I would like you to do.
Fair enough?
Mr. Markey. Yes, Mr. Chairman, we will do that.
Senator Specter. Anything else you would like to add?
Mr. Markey. No.
Senator Specter. Okay, Mr. Markey, thank you very much.
We turn now to panel three, Mr. Christ Blank, Mr. Bill
Burkholder, Mr. Herman Bontrager. Would you gentlemen step
forward please?
The media has already been advised that there are not to be
any cameras. I do not see any in the hearing room in any event,
but I raise that admonition just as a matter of form.
STATEMENT OF CHRIST BLANK, CHAIRMAN, OLD ORDER AMISH
STEERING COMMITTEE, KINZERS, PA
Senator Specter. Mr. Blank is both a farmer and an
accountant. He does tax work for Amish clients. He is Chairman
of the Old Order Amish Steering Committee, a native of
Lancaster, PA.
As I had announced before, Mr. Blank, the green light goes
on when you start. The yellow light comes on at 4 minutes, and
the red light pops up at 5 minutes. We look forward to your
testimony, sir.
Mr. Blank. Thank you. Mr. Chairman and committee members,
it is with appreciation, but humbleness, that we come before
your committee today. We wish to thank you for the opportunity
to bring some of our concerns before you.
I am speaking here on behalf of many Old Order Amish and
Mennonite communities throughout the United States. In recent
years, we have been getting more and more complaints of Amish
and Mennonite businesses being fined for allowing boys under
age 18 to work in their place of business. Our concern is the
infringement of these child labor laws on our way of life.
As many of you undoubtedly know, the Amish way of life and
religious beliefs prohibit formal education beyond the eighth
grade level. Typically the Amish youth leave school at the end
of eighth grade, but their education does not stop. Instead,
they only begin to absorb in earnest the knowledge and skills
needed to earn a livelihood and support a family. Upon
completion of the eight terms of elementary school, many Amish
children are enrolled in an informal vocational class of
learning by doing under parent and church supervision to
further prepare them to enter into the adult workplace. This
informal vocational class is recognized by the U.S. Supreme
Court ruling in Wisconsin v. Yoder as a legal alternative to
the compulsory school attendance laws.
At age 14, an Amish boy or girl is considered to be ready
for a full course of training, a training that requires
learning by doing. This adolescent period is of utmost
importance to our religious status. We must not tolerate
idleness during these adolescent years. Therefore, we see a
dire need that our youth learn a trade or remain occupied,
preferably under the supervision of the parent or church
member.
It is a longstanding Amish belief and tradition to instill
good work ethics in our children at a young age and to start
training a child at a fairly young age to become a self-
supporting, respectful, and law-abiding citizen. We strongly
believe the ages 14 through 17 to be a very tender receptive
age in which to instill these longstanding Amish values and
work ethics in our children. We believe that forced idleness in
this age to be detrimental to our longstanding Amish way of
raising our children and teaching them to become good,
productive citizens.
We recognize that historically the child labor laws have
been more lenient on farm labor, especially on a family farm.
For many years, our livelihood was largely based on
agriculture, and for many it still is. However, due to many
reasons beyond our control, the trend is gradually forcing more
and more of our youth to learn other trades. We try to
encourage an occupation where the youth is learning by doing by
working in a place where the father or a member of the church
is available to assist him.
We have many Amish-owned or operated sawmills among our
communities. We also have many woodworking shops. Our youth are
well-qualified and capable of providing hand labor in stacking
and sorting lumber as it comes away from the saws. This sorting
and stacking operation usually occurs some distance away from
the saws themselves. However, under present regulations, no one
under age 18 is allowed to work in a sawmill.
We have in the audience several owners or sawmill operators
who were investigated and fined for allowing boys under age 18
to work in these various situations described above.
In our small woodworking shops, there are many occupations
our children would be capable of performing. However, more and
more of our small woodworking shops are finding themselves in
violation with the child labor laws because of power tools that
are needed to be efficient. Under present regulations, even the
owner's own boy could not work until age 16 in a manufacturing
operation or age 18 in any occupation which the Secretary of
Labor shall declare to be hazardous.
We had a situation recently in Pennsylvania where an Amish
person had a sawmill. He had two of his own boys working there.
Due to a situation that occurred at a neighboring sawmill, the
Department of Labor came out and investigated this particular
situation here. While they did not fine the man for having his
own children working there, he did receive a very stern warning
from the Department of Labor saying, if we come back again,
find these boys working here, we will shut down your operation.
That has, of course, created a concern in the community.
There seems to be a lot of government interest in finding
ways to better prepare today's youth to enter into today's
workforce. Many States are drafting school to work acts. It
seems coincidental that at the same time these Amish are being
fined for pursuing a system that has proved successful in
preparing our youth for adulthood and to be respectful, self-
supporting citizens.
We realize that the object of child labor law is to protect
the children. We Amish share your concern for the safety of the
workplace. We have in the audience here a member of an Amish
safety committee that was set up----
Senator Specter. Mr. Blank, your time has expired. Your
full statement will be made a part of the record. So, if you
could summarize, we would appreciate it.
PREPARED STATEMENT
Mr. Blank. So, what we would ask and plea of you men of
authority is to try to find some reasonable solution to the
current problem and concern that we bring before you today. We
wish you many blessings and the guidance from above in
performing your many, very important duties as elected
officials of our country. And may the Lord bless you. Thank
you.
[The statement follows:]
Prepared Statement of Christ K. Blank
Mr. Chairman and Committee members, It is with appreciation, but
humbleness, that we come before your committee today. We wish to thank
you for the opportunity to bring some of our concerns before you.
I am speaking here on the behalf of the many Old Order Amish and
Mennonite communities through out the United States. In recent years we
are getting more and more complaints of Amish & Mennonite businesses
being fined for allowing boys under age 18 to work in their place of
business. Our concern is the infringement of these Child Labor Laws on
our way of life.
As many of you undoubtedly know, the Amish way of life and
religious beliefs prohibit formal education beyond the eighth grade
level. Typically, the Amish youth leave school at the end of eighth
grade, but their education does not stop there. Instead, they only
begin to absorb in earnest, the knowledge and skills needed to earn a
livelihood and support a family. Upon completion of the eight terms of
elementary school, many Amish children are enrolled in an informal
vocation class of learning by doing under parent and church supervision
to further prepare them to enter into the adult work place. This
informal vocational class is recognized by the United States Supreme
Court ruling in Wisconsin v. Yoder, as a legal alternative to the
compulsory school attendance laws.
At age 14, an Amish boy or girl is considered to be ready for a
full course of training. A training that requires ``learning by
doing''. This adolescent period is of utmost importance to our
religious status. We must not tolerate idleness during these adolescent
years, therefore, we see a dire need that our youth learn a trade or
remain occupied, preferably under supervision of a parent or church
member. It is a long-standing Amish belief and tradition to instill
good work ethics in our children at a young age and to start training a
child at a fairly young age to become a self-supporting, respectful and
law abiding citizen. ``Train up a child in the way he should go and
when he is old he will not depart from it.'' (Proverbs 22:6). We
strongly believe the ages 14 through 17 to be a very tender receptive
age in which to instill these long standing Amish values and work
ethics in our children. We believe that forced idleness in this age to
be detrimental to our long-standing Amish way of raising our children
and teaching then to become good productive citizens. Keeping young
hands busy also keeps them out of mischief.
We recognize that, historically, the Child Labor laws have been
more lenient on farm labor, especially on a family farm. For many years
our livelihood was based largely on agriculture and for many still is.
However due to many reasons beyond our control, the trend is gradually
forcing more and more of our youth to learn other trades. We try to
encourage an occupation where such youth is learning by doing by
working at a place where his father or a member of the church is
available to supervise him.
Due to the high cost of our dwindling supply of farm land, more and
more of our families are being forced to start small businesses such as
woodworking shops, welding shops, sawmills, pallet shops etc. This is
in keeping with the Amish tradition of operating a family business so
the family can work together.
We have many Amish owned or operated sawmills among our
communities. Our youth are well qualified and capable of providing hand
labor in stacking and sorting the lumber as it comes away from the
saws. This sorting and stacking operation usually occurs some distance
away from the saws themselves. However, under the present regulations
no one under age 18 is allowed to work in a sawmill building. We have
in the audience several owners of sawmill operations that were
investigated and fined for allowing boys under age 18 to work in the
very situation described above. None of the owners were aware that they
were in violation of the child labor law until the investigator showed
up. They were told to send the boys home and warned that if he (the
investigator) comes back again in several weeks and finds the boys back
on the premises, he will shut the whole operation down. These threats
created a great concern in the area, not only among the Amish, but also
among their non Amish neighbors. They received no warning before they
were fined even though the owners indicated they would comply with the
order.
One of the owners related an incident to me where one of the boys,
whom he was required to send home, came back and asked in tears, ``When
can I come to work again?'' The owner of course had to say ``Not until
you are eighteen.''
In our small woodworking shops there are many occupations our youth
would be capable of performing, however, more and more of our small
woodworking shops are finding themselves in violation with the child
labor laws because of the power tools that are needed to be efficient.
Under the present Regulations even the owners own boy could not work
until age 16 in a manufacturing operation or age 18 in any occupation
which the Secretary of Labor shall declare to be hazardous.
There seems to be a lot governmental interest in finding ways to
better prepare today's youth to enter into today's workforce. Many
states are drafting School to Work Acts. It seems coincidental that at
the same time, these Amish are being fined for pursuing a system which
has been proven successful in preparing our youth for adulthood and to
be respectful, self-supporting citizens.
In Wisconsin v. Yoder, Dr. Donald Erickson testified that the Amish
System of learning by doing was an ``ideal system'' of education in
terms of preparing Amish children for life as adults in the Amish
community. He further stated, ``Many public educators would be elated
if their programs would be as successful in preparing their students
for productive community life as the Amish system seems to be.''
We realize that the object of the Child Labor laws is to protect
the children. We Amish share your concern for safety in the work place.
As an illustration of our concern, in a number of our larger
communities we have set up Amish safety committees. The purpose of
these committees are to work with Amish businesses to help make our
people more aware of safety practices that need to be instilled in our
work places to make them safer.
As Old Order Amish, we desire to be a self supporting group, taking
care of their own needy and elderly people, in their own way, without
depending on the government for assistance. In the past we have been
granted a number of exemptions from participating in various programs
or requirements which our forefathers saw as being detrimental to our
way of life or which our religious beliefs prohibit. We very much
appreciate the many privileges which we have been granted over the
years. It is our deepest desire to continue to be a self-supporting
group and not to become a burden on society.
We ask and plea of you men of authority to find some reasonable
solution to this current problem and concern that we bring before you
today. We wish you many blessings and the guidance from above in
performing your many very important duties as elected officials of our
country. May the Lord Bless you.
Senator Specter. Thank you very much, Mr. Blank.
STATEMENT OF WILLIAM BURKHOLDER, OWNER, C.B. HARDWOOD
LUMBER CO., CENTERVILLE, PA
Senator Specter. We turn now to Mr. Bill Burkholder, an
Amish sawmill owner and operator from Centerville, PA, who was
cited and fined by the Labor Department for child labor
violations. His company, C.B. Hardwood, employs 50 people, most
of whom are Amish. Thank you for coming in, Mr. Burkholder. We
look forward to your testimony.
Mr. Burkholder. Thank you. Mr. Chairman and committee
members, thank you for the opportunity to present to you our
concern regarding well-intended child labor laws and the
adverse impact some of these laws are now having in our Amish
community to our way of life.
I am sure you are aware children in our community finish
classroom school in eighth grade, learning the essentials of
reading, writing, and arithmetic. While this learning is an
important part of shaping their lives, preparing them for
adulthood, their success with our way of life requires other
skills as well. Many of our adult occupations have been learned
by doing. Despite living in a technological world, we have
limited ourselves by choice to occupations that leave time for
our faith in God and for our families. Farming, carpentry, wood
and metal shops, sawmills, harness making, and furniture making
are some of the ways I am sure you recognize we earn our
living. They are occupations that reinforce self-reliance
within our group or community as well as the work ethic.
While many of your own children might have a computer at an
early age to begin to acquire the skills they may need to
thrive in a modern, fast-paced world, our society requires
faith and tradition to keep itself together to continue to
thrive in our modern world. Again, this tradition is one of our
faith in God, a belief in the importance of our families, of
self-reliance within our group, and hard work. These beliefs
and lessons we share with our children, even at a very young
age. They learn by our example and by doing.
We recognize that child labor laws were made and needed to
correct abuse in the past. These laws still help ensure that
children are not forced into unsafe, exploitive labor. We hope
you recognize that we pursue the same goal as you regarding the
safety of our children.
In 1971, the Supreme Court, by its decision in Yoder v.
Board of Education, recognized the intent and purpose for us to
educate our children in our schools. Graduates from our Amish
schools are most often eager to prove themselves as hard
workers. They turn to farm, shop, or mill owners like myself,
to earn an income to get started on a farm or other business on
their own. This is a cycle that has repeated itself
successfully throughout the history of our community in the
United States.
PREPARED STATEMENT
Despite rising land costs, property taxes, income taxes,
school taxes, startup costs for businesses, buildings,
equipment, and machinery, our young people overcome many
obstacles to start off on their own in our community. Besides a
commitment to hard work to achieve their goals, they also must
rely on their families and business owners like myself to help
them get started.
[The statement follows:]
Prepared Statement of William Burkholder
INTRODUCTION
Thank you for the opportunity to present to you our concerns
regarding well-intended child labor laws, and the adverse impact some
of these laws are having in our Amish community, to our way of life.
As I'm sure you are aware, children in our community finish
classroom school in eighth grade, learning the essentials of reading,
writing, and arithmetic. While this learning is an important part of
shaping their lives, preparing them for adulthood, their success with
our way of life requires other skills as well. Many of our adult
occupations have been learned by doing. Despite living in a
technological world, we have limited our selves, by choice, to
occupations that leave time for our faith in God, and for our families.
Farming, carpentry, wood and metal shops, saw mills, harness making and
furniture making are some of the ways I'm sure you recognize we earn
our living.
They are occupations that reinforce self reliance within our group
or community as well as the work ethic. While many of your own children
might have a computer at an early age to begin to acquire the skills
they will need to thrive in a modern, fast paced world, our society
requires faith and tradition to keep itself together to continue to
thrive in a modern world. Again, this tradition is one of our faith in
God, a belief in the importance of our families, of self reliance
within our group and hard work. These beliefs and lessons we share with
our children, even at a very young age. They learn by our example and
by doing. We recognize that child labor laws were made and needed to
correct abuses in the past. These laws still help insure that children
are not forced into unsafe, exploitive labors. We hope you recognize
that we pursue the same goal as you regarding the safety of our
children.
In 1971, the Supreme Court, by its decision in Yoder v. Board of
Education recognized the intent and purpose for us to educate our
children in our own schools. Graduates from our Amish schools are most
often eager to prove themselves as hard workers. They turn to farm,
shop, or mill owners like myself, to earn an income to got started on a
farm or other business on their own. This is a cycle that has repeated
itself successfully throughout the history of our community in the
United States.
Despite rising land costs, property taxes, income taxes, school
taxes, start up costs for business, buildings, equipment and machinery,
our young people overcome many obstacles to start off on their own in
our community. Besides a commitment to hard work to achieve their
goals, they must rely on their families and business owners like myself
to helm them get started.
Senator Specter. Thank you very much, Mr. Burkholder.
STATEMENT OF HERMAN BONTRAGER, SECRETARY/TREASURER,
NATIONAL COMMITTEE FOR AMISH RELIGIOUS
FREEDOM
Senator Specter. We now turn to Mr. Herman Bontrager,
President of Goodville Mutual Casualty company in New Holland,
PA. He grew up in an Amish home in Indiana, living in
Pennsylvania for the past 25 years, a member of the Board of
the National Committee for Amish Religious Freedom. Thank you
for joining us, Mr. Bontrager. We look forward to your
testimony.
Mr. Bontrager. Senator Specter, committee members, friends,
thank you for the opportunity to comment today.
The National Committee for Amish Religious Freedom was
organized to help the Amish regain their right to educate their
own children. The committee's most notable achievement was when
the late constitutional attorney, William Ball, successfully
defended the Amish in Wisconsin v. Yoder in the U.S. Supreme
Court. Some of the issues related to apprenticeships of Amish
youth in family and Amish businesses are the same as the
religious liberty issues in Wisconsin v. Yoder.
The Amish and Mennonites, stemming from the 1525 Anabaptist
stream of the Protestant reformation, believe that it is
essential to imitate the life and spirit of Jesus and to follow
his teachings in all of life. Faith for them is not only a
personal belief, it is a corporate practice nurtured by the
community. In the Amish way of life, the sacred and the secular
are inseparably intertwined.
Amish believe that children are a gift from God. Parents,
supported by the Amish community of faith, take seriously their
responsibility to prepare children for life. That formation
consists of wisdom, such things as character, honesty,
humility, long-suffering, concern for the welfare of others. It
includes a work ethic, a commitment to quality, and the
vocational skills that equip children for useful adult
participation in the community in the Amish way of life.
The Amish way of life is both a religious and a social
commitment. Thus, it is important that work be performed in the
context of a supportive community, in other words, at home or
as close to home as possible. I quote Rev. William Lindholm,
the chairman of our committee. ``Only Amish persons can model
and teach children to be Old Order Amish. If the Amish cannot
teach their own children Amish ways, their religious culture
will be destroyed.''
Thus, teaching by example is essential and is the preferred
pedagogy of the Amish. Working together as a family or in the
community forges a strong sense of identity, family cohesion,
and a sense of responsibility.
Amish vocational training is primarily accomplished through
apprenticeships in the context of their extended families. They
do not utilize high schools or vocational schools, technical
schools, or colleges for training. Apprenticeships adequately
meet the training needs of Amish young people and help to keep
them integrated in the Amish community during those crucial
adolescent years. This system keeps their children off the
streets, out of prisons, and makes them contributors to the
welfare of the community at a very early age. It is important
to the Amish to train children to do the best they can in their
work and to do it safely.
So, I urge the Senate to enact legislation to amend the
Fair Labor Standards Act in a manner that will make it possible
for Amish and other religious groups such as Old Order
Mennonites and Brethren to maintain their time-tested practice
of apprenticeship. A labor code that makes it possible for the
Old Order religious community to provide for vocational
training will help to preserve the Old Order way of life.
The Old Order way of life is, first and foremost, a matter
of conscience based on religious faith. Apprenticeships, one of
the few acceptable means available to Amish and Old Order
groups to bring up their children in the heart of the
community, are in effect a religious practice for them.
Apprenticeships are the means for holistic formation of Old
Order youth. They are not inappropriate child labor practices
that exploit children in large factories to serve the profit
motives of outside investors. It is of compelling interest to
the state to assure that there is adequate provision for these
religious groups, the Amish and other Old Orders, to train and
bring up their children according to the dictates of their
conscience and their faith.
Anabaptist faith understands that all aspects of life,
whether spiritual or material, whether worship or work, are to
be lived humbly under the Lordship of Christ. Religious faith
is the basis for the Amish way of life. The U.S. Constitution
assures liberty for all citizens to believe and practice their
faith as conscience dictates. The Nation's laws need to uphold
that religious liberty. Amish apprenticeships do not present
any threat to public health and safety nor to the welfare of
any segment of our society.
PREPARED STATEMENT
Wisconsin v. Yoder set a strong precedent in support of the
Amish providing education and for training their children in
ways that preserve their community. This is a matter of
conscience, and thus we need legislative relief.
[The statement follows:]
Prepared Statement of Herman Bontrager
Thank you for the opportunity to talk with you about the unique
training needs of Amish youth and preservation of the Amish way of
life. I am interested in testifying on this matter for the following
reasons: (a) I was raised in an Amish family and community in Northern
Indiana and personally benefited from the vocational and values
training that is an integral part of the Amish way of life; (b) I am
concerned that the United States government unequivocally respect and
support the freedom of conscience of all its citizens; and (c) I work
with the National Committee for Amish Religious Freedom.
The National Committee for Amish Religious Freedom was organized to
help the Amish regain their right to educate their own children. The
Committee's most notable achievement was when the late constitutional
attorney William Ball successfully defended the Amish in Wisconsin v.
Yoder in the U.S. Supreme Court. Some of the issues related to
apprenticeships of Amish youth in family and Amish businesses are the
same as the religious liberty issues in Wisconsin v. Yoder.
1. The Amish and Mennonites, stemming from the 1525 Anabaptist
stream of the Protestant reformation, believe that it is essential to
imitate the life and spirit of Jesus and to follow his teachings in all
of life. The Amish community is where individuals live out their faith.
Faith for them is not only a personal belief, it is a corporate
practice nurtured by the community. In the community Amish find support
from fellow followers of Christ, live in harmony and support each
other, and discern how to relate redemptively to the larger world. In
the Amish way of life the sacred and the secular are inseparably
intertwined.
2. Amish believe that children are a gift from God. Parents,
supported by the Amish community of faith, take seriously their
responsibility to prepare children for life. That formation consists of
wisdom, (including character, honesty, humility, long-suffering,
concern for the welfare of others), a work ethic, commitment to
quality, and the vocational skill that equip children for useful adult
participation in the community, in the Amish way of life.
3. The Amish way of life is both a religious and social commitment,
nurtured within the Amish community as individuals live out their faith
in everyday life activities. It is important that work be performed in
the context of a supportive ethnic community, in other words, at home
or as close to home as possible. Passing on the values of the Amish way
of life and teaching the skills their children need for living in the
community are a sacred trust assumed by Amish parents and the whole
community. ``Only Amish persons can model and teach children to be Old
Order Amish . . . . If the Amish cannot teach their own children Amish
ways, their religious culture will be destroyed'' (Lindholm, 1993: 120-
121).
4. The agrarian way of life, farming, is by far the best way to
preserve the Amish way of life. Both parents are present, the family is
together for work and play, children learn life skills by being with
and observing their parents and other family members, children learn
vocations by helping in the real work of their parents' livelihood (on
the job learning, constantly supervised by someone who really cares for
them), and children experience validation by doing work that
contributes to the welfare of the family. Children are encouraged to be
useful but are not pushed to perform tasks beyond their ability.
Teaching by example is the preferred pedagogy of the Amish. Working
together as a family forges a strong sense of identity, family cohesion
and a sense of responsibility.
5. Occupational diversification has increased among the Amish as
farming is no longer available for all. Unavailability of farmland, the
high cost of investment to start farming, and competition with high
tech, corporate farming have forced Amish to adopt other vocations. To
preserve the family as the primary work unit and to retain control over
the work environment the Amish develop small businesses so they do not
need to work in large outside businesses. This emerging adaptation to
keep parents and children working together makes it possible to keep
their young people in a setting where they are supervised by family or
others from the Amish community.
6. Whether it is on the farm or in the numerous other occupations
they pursue through their own businesses and cottage industries, Amish
vocational training is primarily accomplished through apprenticeships
in the context of their extended families. They do not utilize high
schools, vocational schools, technical schools or colleges for
training. Apprenticeships adequately meet the training needs of Amish
young people and help to keep them integrated in the Amish community
during the crucial adolescent years. This system, which provides both
technical training and values transmission in the context of the
family, keeps children off the streets, out of prisons and makes them
contributors to the welfare of the community at an early age.
Apprenticeships are effective for this religious group and do not cost
the state or federal governments anything.
7. Motivated by love for their God-given children and a commitment
to equip them with practical life skills for living in the Amish
community, parents take very seriously the task of providing relevant
training and formative experiences for their children. Learning life
skills and developing a sense of responsibility are most effective when
done in the context of real, meaningful work. It is important to the
Amish to train children to do the best they can in their work and to do
it safely. Thus, careful supervision and instruction are provided,
preferably by the parents or another family member. Supervision by non-
family members is also dependable since it is the heartfelt desire of
Amish people to retain their children in the community and to help them
become productive contributors to the welfare of the Amish community.
8. I urge you to enact legislation to amend the Fair Labor
Standards Act in a manner that will make it possible for the Amish and
other religious groups such as Old Order Mennonites and Brethren to
maintain their time-tested practice of apprenticeship. A labor code
that makes it possible for the Old Order religious community to provide
for vocational learning in the context of the ethnic community and
family will help to preserve the Old Order way of life. The Old Order
way of life is first and foremost a matter of conscience, based on
religious faith. Apprenticeships, one of the few acceptable means
available to Amish and other Old Order groups to bring up their
children in the heart of the community, are, in effect, a religious
practice for them. Apprenticeships are the means for holistic formation
of Old Order youth, they are not inappropriate child labor practices
that exploit children in large factories to serve the profit motives of
outside investors. It is of compelling interest to the state to assure
that there is adequate provision for these religious groups, the Amish
and other Old Orders, to train and bring up their children according to
the dictates of their conscience and their faith.
9. The relief sought through an amendment to the Fair Labor
Standards Act is to provide flexibility that permits Amish and other
Old Order youth ages 14 to 18 years to learn skills and values by
working in what are the typical and common businesses operated by Amish
and other Old Order groups. It is not to compromise their safety.
Supervision by adult family members or other adults from the Amish
community and certain limitations on activities these youth may perform
are acceptable requirements.
10. Anabaptist faith understands that all aspects of life, whether
spiritual or material, whether worship or work, are to be lived humbly
under the Lordship of Christ. Religious faith is the basis for the
Amish way of life. The U.S. constitution assures liberty for all
citizens to believe and practice their faith as conscience dictates.
The nation's laws need to uphold that religious liberty. Amish
apprenticeships do not present any threat to public health and safety
nor to the welfare of any segment of society.
Wisconsin v. Yoder set a strong precedent in support of Amish
providing education and training for their children in ways that
preserve their community.
Thank you for your consideration in this matter that is vital to
the interests of the Amish and other religious communities.
Senator Specter. Thank you very much, Mr. Bontrager.
I am going to have to recess the hearing for just a few
minutes. I also serve on other committees like Judiciary, and
they are waiting to get a quorum to vote out the new Deputy
Attorney General and Solicitor General. So, if you will excuse
me for just a few minutes. There are some other matters I want
to conduct in this hearing. I will return.
The recess is now in effect.
[A brief recess was taken.]
Senator Specter. Our hearing will resume.
Mr. Bontrager, let me begin with you on your articulation
of the issue of apprenticeship as a form of religion which is
an articulation which would bring this kind of work into the
Freedom of Religion Clause, the exercise of religion. Would you
amplify as to how you would describe the apprenticeship being a
form of religious activities?
Mr. Bontrager. Well, I would not use the words exactly that
way because the Amish way of thinking is you cannot separate
the scared and the secular, work from all the other activities
of life. So, apprenticeship is just part of being a faithful
follower of Jesus, as is every other thing we do. For example,
you and I, all of us in this room, from the Amish perspective,
are doing all of this in the presence of God, and thus
everything we do needs to honor God.
Senator Specter. I thought that you had said--I made a note
here--apprenticeship is a form of religious activity. Am I
incorrect about that?
Mr. Bontrager. Well, I said because of the reasons I just
articulated, one of the few acceptable means--apprenticeships,
that is, to bring up children in the heart of the community,
are in effect a religious practice for them, but as is
everything that one does in that sense.
Senator Specter. Well, you might have a little harder
justification for making apprenticeship a form of religious
activity if you have a blank characterization of all activities
being religious. But if there were something about an
apprenticeship as a pursuit of religion as the Amish view it,
it might put it in a different category.
Mr. Bontrager. Apprenticeship the way the Amish do it,
which needs to be in the context of the Amish community and the
family, learning all of life's values and skills in that
context in that sense is what I mean to----
Senator Specter. It certainly is a form of religious
activity to organize their lives in a different way from others
to, as you say, have the telephone in a different spot, to not
have carriage tops. Well, it is an interesting concept that I
wanted to develop with you.
I think it was your comment, Mr. Blank, that you said that
the young people who work in the sawmills are some distance
from the sawmills. What did you think of what Mr. Markey said
about the danger of projectiles?
Mr. Blank. Well, I would say that most of the sawmills that
I have seen in operation, you have your saw where the logs are
actually being sawed, and there are always some conveyors. Most
of those conveyors I have seen are usually a length of probably
100 foot or so away from the saw. I just do not see that----
Senator Specter. You say the individuals are 100 feet or
so?
Mr. Blank. At least that. Would you not say so, Bill?
Mr. Burkholder. Yes.
Mr. Blank. What they are doing, they are just stacking
lumber, sorting lumber.
Senator Specter. And the projectile should not go nearly
that far?
Mr. Blank. No, I would not say.
Senator Specter. What would you say the maximum distance a
projectile could go?
Mr. Burkholder. 90 feet, 100 feet. It's maximum.
Senator Specter. How would it go that far?
Mr. Burkholder. Well, by the time it leaves the saw, it
goes through the edger, and when it goes out, they pile it out
and push it down conveyors.
Senator Specter. Well, that is the lumber going 90 feet or
100 feet. Is that what you are saying?
Mr. Burkholder. Yes.
Senator Specter. A projectile is a piece of wood which
would splinter off and might snap up and hit somebody. I never
worked in a sawmill, but as a teenager, I worked in my dad's
junk yard. And I used to run an oxyacetylene torch, and there
would be a lot of sparks which would fly and you try to get
away from the sparks. That is not quite a projectile, but you
try to get out of the way.
Mr. Blank. I just do not see that the projectile for that
distance from the saw should be any problem or concern at all.
Senator Specter. Well, what is the maximum distance, Mr.
Blank, that you think a projectile might fly?
Mr. Blank. Oh, I would say 15, 20 feet maybe.
Senator Specter. How would it go that far?
Mr. Blank. Well, when I am talking about projectiles, I am
not looking at a big piece. I am looking at small chips of wood
that might fly off the saw or something like that. Due to the
saw being spinning, it might throw a piece off. But I do not
see any big pieces flying that distance.
Senator Specter. And if it went as far as 15 or 20 feet,
how big would it be?
Mr. Blank. Oh, that might be, I would say, a couple inches
in diameter maybe or something like that, and that would be the
maximum.
Senator Specter. Do the people around there wear eye
protection?
Mr. Burkholder. As a rule, yes, eye protection and ear
plugs.
Senator Specter. If it hit you in the eye, it could do a
lot of damage. If it hit you on the arm, it might give you a
bruise. I got hit by a squash ball this morning.
Mr. Burkholder. That is very, very seldom. I have never
seen anything----
Senator Specter. You have never been hit by a squash ball
you say?
Mr. Burkholder. I have never seen anything fly when--I have
been in the mill business for 20 years.
Senator Specter. I am just kidding you, Mr. Burkholder,
about the squash ball, but I am making the point that if you
get hit in the arm, you are not likely to be injured severely.
You might have a bruise. You probably would not even have a
cut.
Well, I want to examine this, and that is why I have asked
Mr. Markey to examine it to see what the risks are and how we
might protect----
Mr. Burkholder. The man that cuts the wood--if the off-
bearer takes the wood away--and if that hits that saw, I know
when I was a little boy, there was a man about 21 years old and
the fellow let that piece of wood drop on the saw and it took
him right over the top and it caught his head right there and
killed him instantly. But you have to be very cautious with
that.
Senator Specter. You are talking about the guy who is
operating the saw right on the spot.
Mr. Burkholder. Right.
Now, what we are asking to work is from the opposite
direction. It would not be anything in that direction at all.
Senator Specter. So, the young people would not be in the
line of fire.
Mr. Burkholder. No.
Senator Specter. It must have been a very unusual thing for
a man to be killed.
Mr. Burkholder. Right. It is very unusual.
Senator Specter. A blow to the head would have to be
ordinarily pretty strong, hit a very tender spot.
Mr. Burkholder, tell us a little about the situation where
you were fined by the Department of Labor. What occurred on
that?
Mr. Burkholder. Well, I have six boys and I had them in the
pallet shop.
Senator Specter. Six of your sons?
Mr. Burkholder. No. My boys were there when they was young.
They started out as soon as they were out of school, but they
were old enough that they did to go back that far. They did not
get my boys.
I had them in the pallet shop on the mill, and we take our
lumber from the mill. We take it 200 feet away from the
sawmill, and we lay it on a conveyor. It moves real slow and
the boys----
Senator Specter. So, how close were these boys? You had
eight boys or six boys?
Mr. Burkholder. These were the lumber after it was sawed.
Senator Specter. Did you have six boys or eight boys?
Mr. Burkholder. Six boys.
Senator Specter. And how close were the boys to the saw?
Mr. Burkholder. About 200 feet from the saw. And that is
where they were piling the lumber, and they said the lumber was
too heavy.
Senator Specter. So, the fine was for the heaviness of the
lumber.
Mr. Burkholder. Yes.
Senator Specter. How much does the lumber weigh?
Mr. Burkholder. Well, at times you might get a board that
weighs 100 pounds, but very seldom.
Senator Specter. Well, if you had a board that weighed 100
pounds, does the boy have to pick it up?
Mr. Burkholder. No, not completely. He drags the board over
and puts it on the cart and then grabs the other end and shoves
it on over.
Senator Specter. When I was 15, I used to have to lift up
3-inch tubing which was 30 feet long and 10 pounds a foot. I
had to lift 150 pounds up to throw it on a bolster. Where was
the Department of Labor on that case, Mr. Markey?
We ought to take a look at that too, Mr. Markey, to see
about weight so that you do not have to lift something which is
unreasonable. I would like your judgment, Mr. Markey--we are
going to get you into the ergonomics hearing now--as to how
much you can lift to see if you have a restriction.
We want to protect the boys. I know you men want to protect
the boys. Is that not right, Mr. Blank?
Mr. Blank. Yes.
Senator Specter. Mr. Burkholder?
Mr. Burkholder. Yes.
Senator Specter. Mr. Bontrager?
Mr. Bontrager. Yes.
Senator Specter. Do you have one more comment, Mr.
Burkholder?
Mr. Burkholder. Yes. They said if the lumber was dry, they
could do it, but as long as it was green, they would not allow
it.
Senator Specter. We have a young man here today who I
understand has some experience in this line. He is not a
witness, but I would like to hear from him. Mr. Noah Byler,
would you step forward please? Come up and have a chair.
STATEMENT OF NOAH BYLER
Senator Specter. I met Mr. Byler in my office earlier this
morning. Mr. Byler, you do not have to testify because you are
not on the witness list and nobody has advised you. But I hope
you would be willing to say a few words about your own
experience. I understand you are 21 today.
Mr. Noah Byler. Yes.
Senator Specter. Do you mind testifying?
Mr. Noah Byler. I do not mind.
Senator Specter. And you were 17 when the Department of
Labor issued a citation and a fine for your work in a sawmill.
Is that correct?
Mr. Noah Byler. Yes.
Senator Specter. Tell us what happened there.
Mr. Noah Byler. I was piling lumber on a sawmill, and they
made me quit. They said it was too heavy, and I was too close
to machinery.
Senator Specter. How close to the machinery were you?
Mr. Noah Byler. I was piling lumber behind the edger. From
the saw, it was about 60-70 feet.
Senator Specter. Were there any projectiles anywhere near
you?
Mr. Noah Byler. No. And the issue that he spoke about the
projectiles falling down--it would not matter if it would be a
young guy or an old guy, we would not want it falling on
anybody. I just cannot see a lumber pile falling down being any
trouble as far as the child labor law.
Senator Specter. Why do you say that?
Mr. Noah Byler. Well, they pile the lumber, but you can
walk through anywhere and something might happen, even if you
are not working. I just cannot see where he has a point there.
Senator Specter. You were lifting lumber at that time?
Mr. Noah Byler. Yes.
Senator Specter. How heavy was it?
Mr. Noah Byler. The boards that I lifted, 50 pounds at the
most. But I had to lift one end, put it on the pile.
Senator Specter. So, you lift one end of a 50 pound board?
Mr. Noah Byler. Yes.
Senator Specter. So, that makes it effectively about half
that, or 25 pounds. You look like you are a pretty strong guy.
Did that exert you any?
Mr. Noah Byler. I am physical in shape and I am okay. It
never hurt me a bit.
Senator Specter. What was the fine that was issued?
Mr. Noah Byler. I am not sure. John paid it. My boss.
Senator Specter. Well, I think this is very helpful. What
we are going to have to do is circulate this testimony with the
other Senators so they understand just exactly what you are
looking for here, an opportunity to carry on your way of life,
which you consider to be part of your freedom of religion. You
cited the Yoder case.
We have a gentleman in the audience who has raised his
hand. This is irregular, but come forward. We will hear from
you.
STATEMENT OF JOHN BYLER
Mr. John Byler. I just want to say a few words. He was my
employee, and I was fined $3,000.
Senator Specter. You are talking about----
Mr. John Byler. Noah.
Senator Specter. You were fined $3,000?
Mr. John Byler. The other boy was 18 years old.
Senator Specter. Would you identify yourself for the
record, please? This young lady who is the stenographer is
getting very nervous. She is going to have to write down a
voice out of the audience. So, if you would come forward and
identify yourself, we would appreciate it. What is your name,
sir?
Mr. John Byler. John Byler.
Senator Specter. Where is your business located?
Mr. John Byler. Harrisville, PA.
Senator Specter. And tell us a little about the citation
and the fine please.
Mr. John Byler. Noah and his brother James is two of my
employees. And the Labor Department come in and they fined me
$3,000. James was 18 years old. Noah was 17 years old, but they
went back 2 years. They fined them for piling the boards, like
they said, 60-70 feet away from the equipment. The boards
weighed 50 pounds at the most, slid them off the pile, just
like----
Senator Specter. Were they in danger of projectiles from as
far away as they were?
Mr. John Byler. No. No danger of any kind. You had like a
foot or 2 that you could walk between the piles. The piles was
2-3 feet high at the most. There is no danger whatsoever.
They had to quit their jobs, had to quit working, piling
the lumber, and I had to pay my $3,000 fine.
Really everything else, you know, just like Christ and the
rest of them say, we try to teach them learning by doing and
our faith and the ways of the Lord and tried to raise them.
Senator Specter. Thank you very much, sir.
CONCLUSION OF HEARING
Thank you all very much for being here, that concludes our
hearing.
[Whereupon, at 10:44 a.m., Thursday, May 3, the hearing was
concluded and the subcommittee was recessed, to reconvene
subject to the call of the Chair.]
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