    [House Hearing, 107 Congress]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

          NATIONAL SMALL BUSINESS WEEK: SMALL BUSINESS SUCCESS STORIES
    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   before the

                          COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
                            HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                          ONE HUNDRED SEVENTH CONGRESS

                                 SECOND SESSION
                                   __________

                          WASHINGTON, DC, MAY 8, 2002
                                   __________

                               Serial No. 107-56
                                   __________

             Printed for the use of the Committee on Small Business

                         U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
    80-188                       WASHINGTON : 2002
    ________________________________________________________________________
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                          COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS

                      DONALD MANZULLO, Illinois, Chairman
    LARRY COMBEST, Texas                 NYDIA M. VELAZQUEZ, New York
    JOEL HEFLEY, Colorado                JUANITA MILLENDER-McDONALD,
    ROSCOE G. BARTLETT, Maryland             California
    FRANK A. LoBIONDO, New Jersey        DANNY K. DAVIS, Illinois
    SUE W. KELLY, New York               BILL PASCRELL, Jr., New Jersey
    STEVE CHABOT, Ohio                   DONNA M. CHRISTENSEN, Virgin
    PATRICK J. TOOMEY, Pennsylvania          Islands
    JIM DeMINT, South Carolina           ROBERT A. BRADY, Pennsylvania
    JOHN R. THUNE, South Dakota          TOM UDALL, New Mexico
    MICHAEL PENCE, Indiana               STEPHANIE TUBBS JONES, Ohio
    MIKE FERGUSON, New Jersey            CHARLES A. GONZALEZ, Texas
    DARRELL E. ISSA, California          DAVID D. PHELPS, Illinois
    SAM GRAVES, Missouri                 GRACE F. NAPOLITANO, California
    EDWARD L. SCHROCK, Virginia          BRIAN BAIRD, Washington
    FELIX J. GRUCCI, Jr., New York       MARK UDALL, Colorado
    TODD W. AKIN, Missouri               JAMES R. LANGEVIN, Rhode Island
    SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West Virginia  MIKE ROSS, Arkansas
    BILL SHUSTER, Pennsylvania           BRAD CARSON, Oklahoma
                                         ANIBAL ACEVEDO-VILA, Puerto Rico
                          Doug Thomas, Staff Director
                      Phil Eskeland, Deputy Staff Director
                      Michael Day, Minority Staff Director

                                C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------
                                                                       Page
    Hearing held on May 8, 2002......................................     1

                                   Witnesses

    Carroll, Richard, Digital System Resources, Inc., Falls Church,
      VA.............................................................     8
    Berg, Gene, Austin/Westran, Byron, IL............................    10
    Espat, Roberto, Roses Southwest Papers, Inc., Albuquerque, NM....    12
    Bartoletta, John, High Street Financial Group, Tampa, FL.........    12
    Francis, John, Northern Virginia Roofing, Inc., Falls Church, VA.    14
    Kuntz, Donald, Fine Print of Grand Forks, Grand Forks, ND........    15
    Shore, Billy, Community Wealth Ventures, Washington, DC..........    17
    Siccardi, Frank, Coenco, Inc. Fayetteville, AR...................    18
    Guadarrama, Belinda, GC Micro Corporation, Novato, CA............    19
    Burkhartsmeier, Brenda, Mountain Mudd & Mountain Manufacturing,
      Billings, MT...................................................    21

                                    Appendix

    Opening statements:
        Manzullo, Hon. Donald........................................    28
        McDonald, Hon. Juanita Millender.............................    32
        Christensen, Hon. Donna M....................................    36
        Ross, Hon. Mike..............................................    39
    Prepared statements:
        Carroll, Richard.............................................    40
        Berg, Gene...................................................    46
        Espat, Roberto...............................................    47
        Bartoletta, John.............................................    49
        Kuntz, Donald................................................    70
        Shore, Billy.................................................    74
        Siccardi, Frank..............................................    91
        Guadarrama, Belinda..........................................    92
        Burkhartsmeier, Brenda.......................................    94
    Additional Information:
        Submission by John Bollinger, Deputy Executive Director,
          Paralyzed Veterans of America..............................    98

          NATIONAL SMALL BUSINESS WEEK: SMALL BUSINESS SUCCESS STORIES

                                  ----------

                             WEDNESDAY, MAY 8, 2002

                              House of Representatives,
                                   Committee on Small Business,
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The Committee met, pursuant to call, at 2:40 p.m. in room
    2360, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Donald Manzullo
    presiding.
        Present: Representatives Velazquez, Millender-McDonald,
    Ross, and Thune.
        Chairman Manzullo. Good afternoon. This afternoon the Small
    Business Committee conducts a hearing in conjunction with
    National Small Business Week to recognize several small
    businesses that embody the spirit of entrepreneurship.
    Specifically, the Committee will receive testimony from several
    small businesses who have grown their businesses with the
    assistance of the Small Business Administration. Additionally,
    this hearing will enable the participants to promote their
    successes in the industry in which they have engaged.
        Each year for the past 39 years, the President of the
    United States has issued a proclamation calling for the
    celebration of Small Business Week. This year, National Small
    Business Week, which is sponsored by the Small Business
    Administration [SBA], is being held from May 5 through 11,
    2002.
        Historically, small businesses have been the catalyst for
    economic growth. From 1990 to 1995, one of our nation's most
    impressive economic growth cycles, small businesses created
    three-fourths of the new jobs. Overall, small business accounts
    for 99.7 percent of the nation's employers, employing 53
    percent of the private work force, contributing 47 percent of
    all sales in the country, and is responsible for 50 percent of
    the private gross domestic product.
        Small businesses also play an integral role in helping to
    solve some of the nation's most complex problems. For example,
    with the onslaught of the War on Terrorism, a number of small
    businesses have provided valuable technical assistance to the
    Department of Defense. Additionally, because small businesses
    are the heart of specific communities, they are also attuned to
    the challenges facing their community. Consequently, they often
    serve as the leaders to fight problems such as hunger and
    homelessness.
        Unfortunately, burdensome regulations, a complex tax code,
    and an inaccessible health care system are stifling small
    businesses. Small business owners face a tax and regulatory
    scheme that overburdens and demoralizes them. Government is
    meant to be the servant of the people, yet the existing federal
    tax and regulatory state unfairly acts as judge, jury, and
    master of honest, hard-working Americans.
        Fortunately, with the assistance of the Small Business
    Administration, our guests have managed to become successful in
    spite of the road blocks placed in their way. However, if small
    business is to continue as the nation's economic catalyst, it
    is imperative that fewer regulations, simpler, lower taxes, and
    a free market approach to health care are all implemented to
    ensure a competitive environment for all small businesses.
        While Washington has contributed to these problems in the
    past, I am proud to say that, along with President Bush,
    Congress has worked to repeal the 100 billion ergonomics rule
    and pass the President's Economic Growth and Tax Relief
    Reconciliation Act. It is my hope that in the very near future
    Congress can act to make health care an affordable benefit for
    all small businesses.
        I look forward to the testimony of the witnesses today and
    want to thank the witnesses who are testifying, especially my
    constituent, Mr. Gene Berg, who through some creative thinking
    was able to save over 200 jobs in Byron, Illinois.
    Additionally, I want to recognize and thank SBA Administrator
    Hector Baretto for his cooperation over the last year. Mr.
    Baretto will join us today to discuss the role his agency has
    played in helping to create and sustain successful small
    businesses.
        [Chairman Manzullo's statement may be found in appendix.]
        Ms. Velazquez. Thank you, Mr. Chairman
        We take time this week to recognize the huge contribution
    that small business makes to this country. It is absolutely
    incredible the work small businesses do for America. They
    anchor our neighborhoods and communities. They create three-
    fourths of all new jobs and employ half our workers. While
    corporate America sheds jobs and shifts production overseas,
    small businesses are busy hauling us out of recession.
        Today it is truly an honor to have the opportunity to hear
    from some of the leaders in the small business community.
        Kimberly Francis and her husband, John, own Northern
    Virginia Roofing in Falls Church, Virginia. When the Pentagon
    was attacked and burned on September 11, they worked with other
    roofers across the country to volunteer their services to
    rebuild more than over an acre of destroyed slate roofing over
    the Pentagon. Hard at work ever since, they aim to finish the
    job along with the rest of the headquarters by September 11,
    2002.
        Belinda Guadarrama is president and CEO of GC Micro
    Corporation in Novato, California. She started her company more
    than 15 years ago with just two employees. When she tried to
    get a small, $5,000 loan, the bank turned her down for lack of
    collateral. A prime contractor told her, ``No company wants to
    work with a little Mexican company in Novato''. But three years
    later, she secured an SBA loan of $300,000 and expanded into a
    business park. Today, she employs 28 workers, with sales of $34
    million as one of the leading suppliers of computer hardware
    and software to the defense and aerospace industries.
    Congratulations, Belinda.
        Ms. Guadarrama. Thank you.
        Ms. Velazquez. While these small businesses do so much for
    our nation, we should be doing more for them. And while this
    Committee has continued to work tirelessly to help small
    business, the needs still greatly outweigh the gains. On issues
    like tax fairness and regulatory equity most of the change has
    helped corporate America rather than small businesses. Many of
    these issues remained unresolved.
        It was heartening about a month ago to hear the President
    outline his agenda for small businesses. I am glad to hear him
    return to the issue that he raised during the campaign. It is
    my hope that there is action to follow up on these promises.
        Small businesses built this country. From the industrial
    revolution to the information age, American enterprise has
    shaped our economy and way of life. Since this is Small
    Business Week, it is appropriate that during this hearing we
    can learn what small businesses have done for our country and
    our communities. Small enterprise is not uniquely American, but
    Americans have harnessed small enterprise like no other nation.
    Alexis deTocqueville remarked two centuries ago that ``boldness
    of enterprise is the foremost cause of America's rapid
    progress, itsstrength and its greatness.''
        The history of this country and the mission of this
    Committee has been the dogged pursuit of equal opportunity for
    all with the dream of a better life through commerce. That is
    why, Mr. Chairman, I am disappointed in the House leadership
    when they decided to pull two of our bills from the floor this
    week that would have strengthened small businesses. But today
    is less about politics than it is about reminding ourselves why
    we work for small businesses. In addition to the
    entrepreneurial drive, small companies most often embody
    another unique American characteristic: our patriotic
    obligation to give something back to the country that rewards
    talent and hard work with prosperity.
        We honor this spirit today. Small businesses are constantly
    giving back, just as Kimberly and John Francis envisioned
    during our country's darkest hour and just as Belinda
    Guadarrama in contributing to our nation's defense.
        We thank you again for all that you have given us. Welcome.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Manzullo. Thank you. We are going to have some
    visiting members to the Small Business Committee introduce
    their constituents. Representative Lynn Woolsey, would you be
    kind enough to introduce us to your constituent and witness?
        Ms. Woolsey. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and thank
    you, members of the Committee, for letting me come by here
    today to introduce one of my favorite constituents, actually.
    Your ranking member has mentioned Belinda Guadarrama, but I
    want to say a little bit more about her because I know her
    better.
        Belinda, as you have learned, is the president and CEO of
    GC Micro Corporation, which is based in Novato, California,
    which is the very center of my district across the Golden Gate
    Bridge from San Francisco. Belinda was the winner of this
    year's California Small Businessperson of the Year. She is a
    second-generation American and the daughter of a disabled
    American veteran. Belinda earned a degree in economics from
    Trinity University in San Antonio, Texas, and completed
    graduate work at the University of Texas.
        In 1986, investing her entire life savings, Belinda began
    selling software to government contractors and created GC
    Micro, a company with revenues of over $34 million last year.
    Beginning GC Micro was not easy due to both racial and gender
    discrimination. However, Belinda overcame the perception that
    minority women did not belong in the technology field or could
    be effective marketing to defense contractors. Now she is a
    strong and respected voice for minority businesses in America
    and has served as a small business policy adviser to the White
    House over the past three presidential administrations.
        I am proud to represent Belinda Guadarrama, and I know you
    will enjoy her comments today. Welcome, Belinda.
        Ms. Guadarrama. Thank you very much.
        Chairman Manzullo. Thank you very much. Congresswoman
    Woolsey, you can stick around as long as you want. If you would
    like to join our Committee, let us know. We always have need of
    your talent. Thank you so much.
        Representative Reberg from Montana would like to introduce
    a witness and a constituent.
        Mr. Reberg. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do feel like I am
    part of the Small Business Committee. Let me begin by thanking
    you for traveling all the way to the State of Montana and
    having a Small Business Committee hearing on the snowmobile
    issue. It was very important to my constituency, and we
    appreciate that.
        Appropriately enough, I have a constituent sitting on the
    far right of the panel. Her name is Brenda Burkhartsmeier, and
    her husband, Dennis, is somewhere in the audience. I like his
    name. It is easy to remember Dennis. They are a tremendous
    reflection of a small business in the State of Montana. We are
    a state of small business. We have not a lot of large business,
    and within Montana there are two things that are important,
    knowledge and capital, and the Burkhartsmeiers came up with a
    concept called Mountain Mud. It is a kiosk that sells coffee.
    As you can imagine, carts are not particularly popular in the
    winter in Montana selling coffee, but a drive-up kiosk is. It
    turned out to be a tremendous asset to the state. They now do
    business in many states, as you will hear in their testimony.
        They are the Small Business of the Year recipients within
    the State of Montana, and we are pretty proud of them.
    Unfortunately, they stole one of my good friends, moved him out
    of state, who was also my insurance agent. They are a growing
    entity in scooping up and creating jobs, and not only are they
    working with the Small Business Administration on the capital
    necessary to expand their business, but they are doing
    something that is very important for all of us to remember:
    They are sharing their knowledge with other small business
    people that are interested in getting into something similar,
    and you do not run into that when there is the proprietary
    interest in business. But they are willing to share their
    expertise, mentoring other small businesses, and my hat goes
    off to them, and I thank you for allowing them an opportunity
    to highlight their business before your Committee today. Thank
    you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Manzullo. Thank you, Congressman Reberg. And we
    have Congressman Tom Udall, a member of our Committee, who is
    going to be introducing his witness, and not a constituent, but
    New Mexico is big enough for Tom Udall, and Mr. Espat.
        Mr. Udall. Thank you, Chairman Manzullo and Ranking Member
    Velazquez for allowing me the opportunity to offer a brief
    statement to welcome Roberto Espat to Washington, D.C. and to
    this hearing today. Roberto is the president and CEO of Roses
    Southwest Papers, Inc., located in Albuquerque, New Mexico. I
    am sure that he will go into detail about his successful
    business, so I will leave that to his testimony. Let me just
    say that he has received many honors during his illustrious
    career, including being named one of the Hispanic Business
    magazine's top 500 owned businesses in the year 2000, New
    Mexico Ethics in Business Award in 2001, just to name a few.
    And most recently, Roberto was named New Mexico's Small
    Businessperson of the Year and will be honored at a luncheon in
    Albuquerque on May 13th. So congratulations, Roberto, on that
    award.
        Mr. Espat is truly an inspiration to entrepreneurs all over
    the country but especially to individuals in New Mexico. Many
    parts of New Mexico struggle to develop economically, with high
    rates of unemployment, high rates of people lacking health
    insurance, and high rates of poverty. In that context, what he
    has achieved is all the more admirable. Not only do you employ
    more than 200 people, but you also provide these employees with
    a health plan, with long-term disability, tuition reimbursement
    for work-related training, and a 401K plan.
        I commend you, Roberto, for your success as a small
    business owner and for providing quality employment
    opportunities for an impoverished state such as ours. And
    again, let me thank you, Mr. Chairman, and Ranking Member
    Velazquez for this opportunity. Thank you.
        Chairman Manzullo. Roberto, did you come in? Where is he?
        Mr. Udall. I think he is arriving momentarily.
        Chairman Manzullo. All right. We will squeeze everybody at
    the table for one more.
        Then Representative Ross from Arkansas, who is a member of
    our Committee, was going to introduce Representative Boozman,
    also from Arkansas, who is going to introduce your constituent,
    but Mike is not here so please.
        Mr. Boozman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I thank the
    members of your Committee forallowing me the distinct pleasure
    of introducing Dr. Frank J. Siccardi and his wife, Linda.
        Frank Siccardi, a resident of Fayetteville, Arkansas,
    earned his doctor of veterinary medicine degree from the
    University of Georgia in 1959 and served as a avian research
    scientist until 1983. Perceiving a need for improved air
    quality in poultry processing plants to enhance both
    environmental quality and cost efficiency, Dr. Siccardi
    developed the Coenco positive air system in 1983 and formed
    Coenco, Inc., to manufacture and sell his new product.
        Dr. Siccardi restructured his company in 1994 and expanded
    his focus to include warehouses, manufacturing facilities, and
    other large, open-space buildings. Since its 1994
    diversification, Coenco's growth has been remarkable.
    Employment has grown from four to 15, and annual sales have
    risen from $300,000 to over one and a half million.
        Dr. Siccardi has been a regular Small Business
    Administration customer for many years. He began working with
    the Arkansas SBA Development Center in 1995 and obtained SBA-
    guaranteed loans in 1995 and 1997 to enhance cash flow and fund
    Coenco's rapid growth. Dr. Siccardi's recent work is defining
    precise ways and means of significantly reducing energy needs
    in large buildings.
        Mr. Chairman, Dr. Siccardi is a great example of the
    American entrepreneurial spirit that is the backbone of our
    nation. It is my pleasure to introduce you to a fellow
    Arkansan, Frank Siccardi. Thank you.
        Chairman Manzullo. Thank you, Congressman. Before we start,
    I have got a resolution here that I drew up honoring the
    employees of the U.S. Small Business Administration for
    tireless efforts in aiding, counseling, and assisting small
    businesses in preservation of the free-enterprise system and
    helping the growth of personal initiative through the creation
    and growth of small businesses and particularly the assistance
    given on September 11th. With your indulgence, it will take me
    about a couple of minutes to read it.
        ``Whereas, on September 11, 2001, terrorists hijacked and
    destroyed four civilian aircraft, crashing two of the planes
    into the towers of the World Trade Center in New York City and
    a third plane into the Pentagon in Northern Virginia, and
    resulting in the crash of a fourth plane in Somerset County,
    Pennsylvania, and whereas these attacks destroyed both towers
    of the World Trade Center as well as adjacent buildings and
    seriously damaged the Pentagon, and whereas thousands of
    innocent people were killed or injured, and businesses both
    large and small were destroyed, closed, or suspended for
    national security purposes by mandate of the federal
    government, many business owners were both directly and
    indirectly adversely affected by the terrorists' attack and
    were finding it increasingly more difficult or impossible to
    make loan payments, find access to new capital, and pay
    employees and vendors, and whereas the employees of the U.S.
    SBA have been working above and beyond the call of duty, in
    some instances going without proper sleep and spending time
    away from their families and loved ones, and have been called
    upon to put in extra time to assist and serve the needs of
    those directly and indirectly affected by the events of
    September 11, 2001, and, therefore, be it resolved by the
    chairman of the Committee on Small Business, United States
    House of Representatives, that the chairman commends the
    employees of the U.S. SBA for their tireless dedication in
    helping those businesses and homeowners directly and indirectly
    affected by the horrific terrorist attacks and helping to
    restore economic well being to thousands of homemakers and
    small businesses throughout this nation. Those who worked in
    cooperation with the U.S. SBA to assist victims of the
    terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, particularly
    Administrator Hector Baretto, who had to deal with the events
    of September 11th only a short period of time after he was
    confirmed by the Senate; John Whitmore, who held the agency
    together during the transition between administrations; Herb
    Mitchell, who went well beyond the call of duty in helping
    small businesses virtually around the clock in the aftermath of
    the terrorist attacks; and Gary Jackson, who resolved complex
    size standards, particularly with respect to travel agencies,
    to all of you are sincere thanks and gratitude.''
        Administrator Baretto, do you want to come up, and John
    Whitmore and Herb Mitchell and Gary Jackson? Folks, give these
    people a big round of applause for the tremendous work that
    they have done.
        [Applause.]
        Chairman Manzullo. John, do you want to come up? Please.
    Mr. Baretto is going to be sitting up here at the table,
    Hector. John, do you want to come on up? Let me give this to
    you also.
        [Applause.]
        Chairman Manzullo. Okay. Well, this is unusual. We have the
    administrator of the SBA sitting up here with us and for a very
    special purpose because, as far as we are concerned, Hector has
    always been one of us. He is a man of the people. He earned his
    oats, as we say in the Midwest, when on September 11th
    tirelessly he walked the streets of New York City with Ms.
    Velazquez and helping people personally to come through that
    tragedy. And Administrator Baretto, we are going to give you
    the opportunity to make a statement, whatever you would like to
    share with us, and then we can turn to the witnesses, and thank
    you for being here.
        Mr. Baretto. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and Ranking
    Member Velazquez. Thank you so much for inviting me to be here.
    It truly is an honor, and today is really a day that we can
    celebrate so much, so many of the achievements that are
    represented today, and I am so anxious to hear the testimony
    from these great men and women small business owners. I have
    read some of their bios. I know how incredible they are, and
    they really are representative of what we know is the best of
    the best of our small business owners. We have so many of them
    in town today.
        I also want to acknowledge the other members that are here.
    I have had an opportunity to work with them, Congresswoman
    Tubbs-Jones and Congressman Chabot, and many of the others that
    sit on this dais often. I have had an opportunity to go to
    their districts. One of the first places I went to, as the
    chairman said, was to Rockford, Illinois, and then soon after
    that I went to Congresswoman Velazquez's district. And I have
    learned so much by being there in their districts and working
    with them and really being on the ground where the rubber meets
    the road, as they often tell us. And so it is a privilege to be
    here.
        Just for the record, I want to unequivocally state that I
    have no designs on any of the chairs that are up here on this
    dais. I know the very important responsibility that the members
    of this Committee have, and I feel honored to be the SBA
    administrator. I do not consider it a job; I consider it a
    higher purpose. I like to tell people that I was busy minding
    my own business literally when the call came to serve, and it
    is such an honor to serve this country and this administration
    and to work with leaders like the ones that are represented on
    this Committee, Chairman Manzullo and Ranking Member Velazquez.
        You know, National Small Business Week gives the SBA the
    opportunity to honor small business men and women who build the
    products and make the sales and create the jobs that fuel our
    economy, and I am so privileged to be here with all of these
    winners that are representing all of the states of the union.
    In fact, with the indulgence of the Committee, I would also
    like to acknowledge the regional administrators who so ably
    represent the SBA in all of the regions in the country. They
    are so proud that so many of their constituents are being
    acknowledged, and Iwould like to ask them also to stand, all
    the regional administrators of the SBA that are here today. Thank you
    so much.
        [Applause.]
        Mr. Baretto. Our winners represent a wide range of products
    and services, including a mix as diverse as American society
    and culture itself, from shipbuilding to outdoor furniture
    manufacturing to day spa and boutique services to Web design,
    advertising, wireless communication, restaurant owners,
    sandwich makers, general contractors, and everything in
    between. Twenty-three percent of our winning businesses are
    minority-owned businesses. Three percent are African-American,
    14 percent are Hispanic-Americans, six percent are Asian-
    Americans, 21 percent are veterans, and women own 28 percent of
    the winning businesses, 10 percent more than last year. And I
    think that that is important because I think everybody in this
    room knows that the fastest growing segments of small business
    are women-owned and minority-owned small businesses who do such
    a great job. And the general businesses that are represented
    here today are really also leading the way in creating many of
    the opportunities that we see.
        Again, I want to thank the chairman and the ranking member
    and this Committee for all of their counsel and all of their
    support. It truly is a privilege to work with them, and I look
    forward to working with them in partnership to do all of the
    great things that we need to do for all of the small business
    owners of America. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I am
    honored to be here with you today.
        Chairman Manzullo. Thank you, Administrator. We are honored
    to have you here. Thank you so much.
        We have a clock here. Try to keep your testimony to three
    minutes or so. I know it is a difficult thing to do. Do you
    want to be in charge of the clock? These things happen, you
    know. Some small businessman will be put to work fixing the
    clock, so do not worry about that.
        We are going to start here with Richard Carroll, the
    founder and CEO of Digital System Resources. Mr. Carroll, if
    you could keep your testimony to three to four minutes, we
    would appreciate it very much, and you are going to have to
    talk directly into that mike.

     STATEMENT OF RICHARD CARROLL, DIGITAL SYSTEM RESOURCES, INC.,
                           FAIRFAX, VIRGINIA

        Mr. Carroll. Well, thank you very much, Chairman Manzullo
    and Ranking Minority Member Velazquez. Members of the
    Subcommittee, I want to thank you for the opportunity to
    testify before the Committee today.
        My name is Richard Carroll. I am the founder and CEO of
    Digital System Resources. DSR was founded in 1982 with two
    employees. The company became incorporated as Digital System
    Resources, Inc., in 1985, when we had eight employees. We won
    our first contract, which was an SBIR contract, part of the
    Small Business Innovative Research Program, at which time we
    had 24 people working for the company. Today, we employ 480
    scientists and engineers, and our annual sales are in excess of
    $100 million a year.
        D.S.R. has offices in Fairfax, Virginia; Crystal City,
    Virginia; Virginia Beach, Orlando, San Diego, Anaheim, and
    Kauai, Hawaii. Our success is directly attributable to the
    Small Business Innovative Research Program. Since our first
    SBIR contract award in 1988, we have been awarded over 80
    separate Phase I, II, and III SBIR contracts.
        The SBIR program opened the door for DSR to prove to
    initially the Navy that a small business with just 40 people
    could design, develop, test, and provide a data processing
    system for a major military system. In competition with large
    companies, such as Lockheed Martin and Raytheon, now the first
    and fourth largest defense contractors in the world, our
    company has been very successful in providing a small business
    alternative.
        Our product was called a multipurpose processor, which is a
    computer that does data processing for the sonars on board our
    nation's submarines. The MPP, as it is known, replaced legacy
    sonar systems, or is to replace them, in our entire nuclear
    submarine fleet. And we believe it could have only been done by
    a small business, what we did. It has had nearly $300 million
    of follow-on work to provide these systems for the submarine
    fleet.
        More important than providing a small business can do the
    job, DSR proved that using a small business to provide a
    competitive alternative in this case to what was longstanding,
    incumbent, large businesses got innovation moving. The system
    we provided is much more capable, faster, and cheaper than the
    traditional process that was used. We adapted commercial, off-
    the-shelf hardware with open system software that allowed the
    software and the hardware to be developed independently,
    something that we find in our commercial world often but not in
    our military world.
        Chairman Manzullo. How are you doing on time, Richard? You
    have got three minutes.
        Mr. Carroll. Okay. I will finish up here.
        Chairman Manzullo. All right. Thank you.
        Mr. Carroll. The SBIR program--I just wanted to mention a
    couple of things about that. The SBIR program was recently
    reauthorized, and I think that the Committee made a home run in
    reauthorizing the SBIR program. The final step that is needed
    is that the directive that the SBA has to issue on the SBIR
    program is not issued, and I understand it is very, very close,
    and we really feel like that needs to be issued. Thank you.
        [Mr. Carroll's statement may be found in appendix.]
        Chairman Manzullo. Thank you very much. Our next witness is
    my constituent, Gene Berg. He hails from Byron, Illinois, and
    Gene, at the ripe, old age of 39, decided that he needed to buy
    a business, and after 19 trips to China, thank God, he got
    involved in keeping that business in Byron, Illinois, which is
    the nearest biggest town to my unincorporated town of Egan,
    Illinois, population 39. So I look forward to your testimony,
    Gene.

        STATEMENT OF GENE BERG, AUSTIN/WESTRAN, BYRON, ILLINOIS

        Mr. Berg. Thank you. As Don said, my name is Gene Berg, and
    I thank you for the opportunity to sit before you and tell my
    story, the story of what might not have happened without the
    assistance of the Small Business Administration.
        I am the president and owner of a small business named
    Austin-Westran, located in Byron, Illinois. We are a
    manufacturer of products that include trailer landing gear,
    commercial vehicle components, and a line of corn-burning
    stoves for residential heating. We employ 200 proud, UAW team
    members in our 200,000 square-foot, modern manufacturing
    facility.
        My story begins early last year, when the company I was
    working for as chief operating officer found itself in a
    position that required it to divest of this division, called
    Austin-Westran. Several suitors stepped forward, with the most
    likely acquirer being a competitor headquartered in Germany. Of
    note is that the selling of this plant to any of these suitors
    would result in its closure, 200 jobs lost and/or dislocated,
    some possibly moving outside the United States--a picture we
    have all seen much too often.
        Shortly after the decision to divest, I decided to attempt
    to buy Austin-Westran. As Don said, I was 39. It was time to
    get moving. After six months of financial wrangling, I came up
    short of financing, and the deal feel through. About that time,
    Mr. Manzullo's office called me and asked if there was anything
    they could do to assist me. They called me. Coming from a
    family of staunch conservatives, I was doubtful that the
    government could assist me with much of anything, at least that
    is what I had been taught, but I had no choice. The Byron plant
    would be gone and my dream of owning a manufacturing company
    ended, and the 200 jobs, most importantly, would not be there.
        Mr. Manzullo's office put me in touch with a local
    development corporation, assisted in numerous other ways, and
    we began the process of qualifying for a $1.3 million SBA 504
    loan. I would never have guessed that working with the
    government could have been so fruitful and efficient, but in
    very short order we were approved. With the SBA financing
    secured, we closed the deal February 2nd of this year, 200 jobs
    in our community saved, our community left intact.
        We are proud of what we have been able to accomplish in our
    short life as Austin-Westran. We have been awarded contracts to
    manufacture corn-burning stoves for heating homes. In addition,
    we have secured a $1 million contract to produce trailer
    landing gear for Mexican trailer companies and have begun a
    program to set up an operation to serve the China market.
        No, this is not a case of outsourcing to low-wage countries
    like we hear so much about. This is Austin-Westran, located in
    Byron, Illinois, making products for Mexico and shipment to
    China. These contracts have resulted in 17 new jobs, of which
    53 percent of the team members are of minority descent.
        Quickly, since Mr. SBA Administrator is here, since I owe
    you money, you will be interested in knowing we are doing well
    and able to pay our loan. Okay?
        [Applause.]
        Mr. Berg. You made me nervous when you showed up.
        In conclusion, I would just add that this Committee does
    important work. As it was so well stated by the Committee
    members, small business is critical to the growth and vitality
    of this country. The Small Business Administration helped save
    Byron, Illinois, and gave me the opportunity to pursue my
    dream. It is your committee that leads this country in support
    of small business. For that, I would like to thank you.
        [Mr. Berg's statement may be found in appendix.]
        Chairman Manzullo. Thank you very much.
        [Applause.]
        Chairman Manzullo. Congressman Mike Ross is going to give a
    second introduction to Mr. Siccardi. You did not realize that,
    did you? Okay. Mike?
        Mr. Ross. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In the spirit of Small
    Business Week and as a fellow Arkansan, I want to welcome Frank
    Siccardi for being here and thank him for sharing his success
    story with us. I want to thank my friend and colleague, John
    Boozman for coming to give his introduction as well.
        Let me just say that as a small business owner myself with
    12 employees back home in Prescott, Arkansas, I know what it is
    like to meet a payroll every Friday, and I understand the
    difficulties and challenges that someone who is trying to
    establish and grow a business faces. I have been there, and I
    appreciate the effort that you and the other witnesses today
    have put into making your business successful.
        Frank Siccardi had a vision to create a cleaner, safer, and
    more energy-efficient environment for poultry processing.
    Arkansas is home to an awful a lot of chicken and poultry
    processing plants. He has taken this vision and not only
    created the air-quality system to do it, but he has worked,
    even when not many people took him seriously, to turn it into a
    successful business that now benefits the poultry industry as
    well as many other types of large warehouses and manufacturing
    facilities.
        As members of Congress, we have to work to make sure that
    our government provides resources and opportunities to help
    small businesses have the chance to succeed. We need to be
    there for them, not against them. Small businesses truly are
    the engine of our nation's economy, and they create an awful a
    lot of economic opportunities for people from all walks of
    life. I want to commend you, as well as all of the guests here,
    for your success, and I want to personally congratulate Frank
    Siccardi for being Arkansas's Small Businessperson of the Year.
    Thank you for being here. Thanks to all of you for being here.
    We look forward to hearing your testimony today.
        Chairman Manzullo. Thank you, Congressman Ross. Our next
    witness is Roberto Espat. Roberto, do you want to pull that
    mike up closer to you there? Can you see the colors? When it
    gets to yellow, you have got one minute to go. Is it green now?
        Mr. Espat. It is green now.
        Chairman Manzullo. Okay.

     STATEMENT OF ROBERTO E. ESPAT, ROSES SOUTHWEST PAPERS, INC.,
                        ALBUQUERQUE, NEW MEXICO

        Mr. Espat. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, SBA, for all
    you do for small business. I happen to be one of those that did
    not do any business through SBA. We were at one time a
    certified 8(a), but unfortunately it was very difficult for us
    to get any GSA contracts because it was difficult to penetrate
    GSA--no fault of the SBA. And thank you for this honor. We are
    proud to be here and proud to be part of SBA.
        I am frequently asked, because I come from the little
    country of Belize, am frequently asked, how did you get here? I
    say I canoed up the Rio Grande.
        Anyway, on a more serious note, we started the business.
    After a couple of rejections from a couple of banks, we were
    fortunate to find one bank that started to carry us, and we
    started back in 1986 doing recycled paper to produce paper
    products: toilet tissue, paper napkins, et cetera. We started
    with one machine, one line, a toilet tissue line back in 1985.
    The first year we had less than 12 employees, a 20,000 square-
    foot building, one line, and less than half a million dollars'
    sales.
        Today, I am proud to say that we have 250,000 square feet.
    By the end of this year we will have 17 production lines,
    employ 200 people, and our sales this year should reach
    somewhere around $55 million. None of this would be possible
    today if it was not for our people, our staff, our employees.
    We have tried to do everything we can for them. Since the
    second year of business we have had a profit-sharing program,
    and we give them all of the benefits that are available,
    including a 401K, health plans, et cetera.
        We would like to suggest that the government can help SBA
    by helping deregulation. There is so much paper work, so many
    things that are happening that really frustrate small business
    and sometimes make it impossible for small business to exist.
    Thank you for the time you have given me.
        [Applause.]
        [Mr. Espat's statement may be found in appendix.]
        Chairman Manzullo. Okay. Our next witness is John
    Bartoletta with High Street Financial Group out of Tampa,
    Florida. John, I look forward to your testimony.

      STATEMENT OF JOHN BARTOLETTA, HIGH STREET FINANCIAL GROUP,
                             TAMPA, FLORIDA

        Mr. Bartoletta. Mr. Chairman, distinguished Committee
    members, I am honored and delighted to have this opportunity to
    directly address those who have jurisdiction over the Small
    Business Administration and the ability to advise Congress on
    the issues that concern small businesses. I hope my testimony
    regarding the High Street Financial success story will serve as
    inspiration and encouragement to help other small businesses
    achieve success.
        High Street Financial is an independent, registered,
    investment-advisory firm headquartered in Tampa, Florida. High
    Street is registered with the United States Securities and
    Exchange Commission. We offer customized investment-management
    services to institutions, professional associations, and high-
    net-worth individuals and have earned a reputation as one of
    the best quantitative money managers on Wall Street.
        We feel that we are redefining traditional institutional
    investment management by offering one of the most sophisticated
    investment-management systems ever made available to investors.
    This proprietary investment system is known as Dynamic Style
    Rotation.
        High Street's mission is to form a partnership with our
    clients and provide them with the most complete investment-
    management program available in the industry. At High Street we
    understand investing and the responsibility that goes along
    with prudent management. That is why all of our institutional
    investment experience, breadth of capabilities, and resources
    are focused on giving the client the best possible personalized
    attention, professional stature, ultimate privacy, and timely
    implementation of their specific investment needs, goals, and
    objectives.
        We believe it is significant that clients understand and
    share in our firm's long-term vision. Consistent bottom line
    investment success is only achieved through comprehensive
    planning, a multidisciplined investment strategy, and a client
    commitment to the overall process and patience. We continually
    strive to uphold the highest standards of performance,
    practice, and procedure in the industry.
        The cornerstone of the program is our documented fiduciary
    prudence, exceptional client service, responsive back office
    support, and superior institutional investment management
    utilizing Dynamic Style Rotation. Our mission can be
    quantified, and we call it I-cubed-E: image, infrastructure,
    implementation, and execution. In all aspects of the client
    relationship we strive to meet and exceed the client's
    expectations. High Street takes as much burden off the client
    as possible. The necessary paper work is filled out for the
    client, transfer of the assets is tracked and expedited by
    continuous contact with the transferring firm while the client
    is informed every step of the way. Communication is made to the
    client when we receive the paper work, when the custodian of
    the assets receives the paper work, and when the assets are
    finally transferred. It is this commitment to execution that
    has earned High Street the fastest-growing firm in the nation
    above $200 million with the least amount of internal errors
    among all asset-management firms that custody their assets with
    Fidelity.
        Chairman Manzullo. How are you doing on time, John?
        Mr. Bartoletta. I have got 14 over.
        Chairman Manzullo. All right.
        Mr. Bartoletta. Everyone at High Street takes great pride
    in providing our services that help to secure the financial
    well being of numerous small businesses not much different than
    our own. The bulk of our asset base is comprised of pension
    plans, profit-sharing plans of small businesses, physicians,
    dentists, and chiropractors nationwide.
        America's small business community provides the
    entrepreneurial engine for America's future economic growth.
    The leaders of America's small businesses are people whose
    motto is, ``the difficult we do immediately; the impossible
    takes a little longer.''
        Mr. Chairman, I would like to close by saying again how
    honored I am to be invited to speak at this hearing. My entire
    staff at High Street is also honored and humbled, and I would
    like to congratulate you on the excellent job you are doing in
    instilling and nurturing the entrepreneurial spirit for small
    business. The entrepreneurial spirit embodied by small business
    has played a critical role in the development of the United
    States as the leading world economic power, and we commend your
    efforts to deliver that message to the American public. Thank
    you.
        [Mr. Bartoletta's statement may be found in appendix.]
        Chairman Manzullo. John, thank you very much. Another
    example of a little guy that got involved in big finance and
    made it successful. Thank you for your testimony.
        Mr. Bartoletta. Thank you.
        Chairman Manzullo. I wonder if we should show the video at
    this time. We can do that. All right. John Francis is with the
    Northern Virginia Roofing Association out of Falls Church, and
    in lieu of his testimony you have got a video for us. Is that
    right?
        Mr. Francis. That is correct.
        Chairman Manzullo. All right. How long is the video? Is it
    four minutes?
        Mr. Francis. Or so. Could I make just a brief opening
    statement?
        Chairman Manzullo. You bet.
        Mr. Francis. Thank you. Chairman Manzullo----
        Chairman Manzullo. Make it brief if you have got a video.
    Okay?

      STATEMENT OF JOHN FRANCIS, NORTHERN VIRGINIA ROOFING, INC.,
                         FALLS CHURCH, VIRGINIA

        Mr. Francis. It will be very brief. My name is John
    Francis, and this is my wife, Kimberly. We own and operate
    Northern Virginia Roofing, a small business, and appreciate the
    opportunity to testify on behalf of the National Roofing
    Contractors Association, or the NRCA. Kimberly and I are here
    today for reasons other than the great work done by the Small
    Business Administration. We are here to discuss the NRCA's
    small business volunteer effort to reroof the Pentagon and have
    brought a short videotape for you to view. We would be happy to
    answer any questions. Thank you.
        Chairman Manzullo. Okay. If you want to turn that video so
    that the folks here can see it. I think we have time for the
    video. Why don't you turn it more towards the audience? We can
    move over there to catch it ourselves, just a little bit there.
        [The video was played.]
        [Applause.]
        Chairman Manzullo. This Committee will be in recess while
    we go and vote, but just continue watching the video.
        [Mr. Francis' statement may be found in appendix.]
        [Whereupon, at 3:30 p.m., a brief recess was taken.]
        Chairman Manzullo. Congressman Pomeroy, do you want to come
    on up? Congressman Earl Pomeroy is from North Dakota, and we
    advised him that one of his constituents was coming, and so we
    asked him to come and introduce his constituent, Mr. Kuntz.
    Earl?
        Mr. Pomeroy. Thank you for your accommodation. I want to
    briefly tell you about these folks because like all of the
    representatives of small business, America's engine, testifying
    today, there is really quite an extraordinary story behind
    North Dakota's winners of the Small Business of the Year Award.
        Five years ago, Grand Forks, North Dakota went under the
    water of the Red River. Incalculable damage all across the town
    and a family-owned print shop contemplating expansion found
    themselves stopped dead in their tracks as the facility got
    inundated, the town got decimated, and they were out of
    business for a period of better than six months. They estimate
    they took it on the chin to the tune of $800,000 to $1,000,000
    in terms of lost opportunity--a hell of a hit for a family-
    owned business. But with the small business assistance disaster
    support, they were able to get the capital they needed to build
    back, and build back they did.
        Now, Mr. and Mrs. Kuntz, along with their son, Kevin, who
    is part of the business, and their other son, who while at the
    university is also part of the business, have built back to
    more than double where they were before the flood. This shows,
    I think, an extraordinary story of personal resilience,
    business acumen, entrepreneurial spirit, but there is even
    another chapter to the story I just found out about.
        As they looked at the total shutdown of their business for
    the foreseeable future, as they slogged through the muck of
    what remained of their business, they knew that they had
    employees that were suddenly without a pay check, suddenly
    totally without support, and they made a decision, Mr. and Mrs.
    Kuntz, that they were going to keep health insurance in place
    for their work force even while they worked to get a business
    up and running again. And so they did. They paid the premiums,
    and they kept health insurance absolutely in force for their
    work force until they could get the shop up and running. And
    each of those employees, not surprising, is still with that
    business today. It is an outfit that we are really proud of,
    people that I am proud to know, and I just wanted you to know
    that about them. Mr. Chairman, I appreciate you having them
    testify today.
        Chairman Manzullo. Thank you, Congressman, for taking the
    time. You can stick around here as long as you like. Let us do
    this. Let us skip to Mr. Kuntz, and then we will come back to
    Mr. Shore while your congressman is here. I look forward to
    your testimony.
        Mr. Pomeroy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Mr. Kuntz. Thank you, Chairman Manzullo, and thank you----
        Chairman Manzullo. You want to slide the mike up closer.

      STATEMENT OF DONALD KUNTZ, FINE PRINT OF GRAND FORKS, GRAND
                          FORKS, NORTH DAKOTA

        Mr. Kuntz. Thank you, Chairman Manzullo, and thank you,
    Representative Pomeroy. Your greeting was outstanding. Thank
    you.
        Fine Print of Grand Forks is a full-service commercial
    print shop. We specialize in high-quality, four-color printing.
    We produce printed products, such as posters, calendars, books,
    promotional materials, brochures, along with other common
    things such as business cards and envelopes. Today, we employ
    23 full-time employees at our locations in both Grand Forks,
    North Dakota, and Thief River Falls, Minnesota.
        We had to overcome countless challenges over the years to
    make Fine Print a success. Our first challenge began back in
    October of 1984, when we took over a failing business form
    shop. The previous owner had left bad credit, worn-out
    machinery, and unqualified employees. With hard work and
    determination, we made Fine Print a successful printing
    company, specializing in high-end, four-color-process printing.
        Our greatest challenge began on Friday, April 18, 1997,
    when the dikes gave way to downtown Grand Forks, allowing the
    ice-cold flood waters of the Red River to engulf the city. My
    son and I had to wade through the flood waters to salvage the
    company's financial records before they fell victim to the
    flood. The business was a complete loss, while our home
    sustained extensive damage and was unlivable until major
    repairs could be completed. At that point, we joined the 50,000
    other residents of Grand Forks as flood refugees.
        During the flood, we visited our bank to make arrangements
    for the company's payroll. They told us not to bother. They
    said we are in over our heads, and we will never succeed.
    Because of a business loan secured by a second mortgage on our
    house, they told us the bank was going to take our home. We
    were so shocked at what we had heard from our bank that we
    decided to tell our story to our congressional delegation. That
    afternoon their staffs made some phone calls, put us in touch
    with the SBA, and by that evening our loan was verbally
    confirmed. We received approximately $971,000 in disaster
    assistance loans. This allowed us to pay our bills, make
    payroll, and open our doors to a new building six months later.
        Since that time, we have doubled our sales and added
    several new full-time positions. We have a digital prepress
    system on the cutting edge of technology, followed up by up-to-
    date production equipment, including a brand-new, four-color
    press.
        Our employees are highly skilled and well motivated.
    Countless overtime hours have been worked by my family and
    staff to make Fine Print a success. At this point, we have
    drawn up plans to add onto the building and purchase a larger,
    faster press. The addition will result in further growth for
    the company.
        We were also very fortunate to have our loans managed by
    the people in the North Dakota SBA office. Since our disaster
    assistance loans were not managed by the centralized service
    center in Fresno, they were not sold as part of the SBA asset
    sales. Because our loans are still being managed by the SBA, we
    are able to finance the upcoming additions to our building and
    continue to grow. Other Grand Forks businesses are not so
    fortunate as we were, as their loans have been sold to a third
    party and their recovery hampered by this arrangement. These
    third-party financial institutions will not subordinate to
    other lenders like the SBA does, further restricting growth for
    these companies.
        The SBA has proven to be a beneficial partner in disaster
    recovery. On behalf of all of the businesses in Grand Forks,
    North Dakota, I would like to extend a thanks to the SBA for
    all of their assistance after the devastating flood. Without
    your help, a small business like ours would not exist today.
    Thank you very much.
        [Applause.]
        [Mr. Kuntz's statement may be found in appendix.]
        Chairman Manzullo. Our next witness will be Billy Shore. He
    is chairman of Community Wealth Ventures. When I became
    chairman of the Small Business Committee, we sort of expanded
    the jurisdictional scope of the definition of a small business
    to include municipalities, faith-based organizations, not-for-
    profits, churches, and the reason we did that is that all of
    these organizations have the same problems as small businesses
    except they do not pay taxes. AndBilly Shore brings a very
    interesting twist on what he is doing with the charities, and we look
    forward to your testimony, Mr. Shore.

         STATEMENT OF BILLY SHORE, COMMUNITY WEALTH VENTURES,
                            WASHINGTON, D.C.

        Mr. Shore. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for those
    introductory remarks and for this opportunity to share
    information about one of the fastest growing but least
    recognized areas of small business, the increasingly successful
    entrepreneurship of America's nonprofit sector. I am also
    honored to have the audience of Mr. Barreto here today. Thank
    you for being here.
        It may surprise you to learn that I am speaking of the
    nonprofit sector, the chairman's comments notwithstanding, but
    this is the sector that is capitalizing on business
    opportunities to create a new kind of wealth. We call it
    community wealth, nonprofit organizations that are generating
    profit to help them reduce or eliminate their dependence on
    government and foundation funding. It is perhaps the best
    untapped market for new revenues, jobs, economic growth--
    everything that the SBA seeks to develop.
        The responsibilities of nonprofit organizations have
    increased dramatically as growth in government funding and
    social services has slowed. Nonprofits have come to realize, as
    government has in recent years, that redistributing wealth by
    itself cannot solve our social and economic problems. Only
    creating new wealth can do that. In growing numbers, nonprofit
    organizations, such as rehabilitation centers, homeless
    shelters, youth groups, and community development corporations,
    are addressing the challenge by creating community wealth
    enterprises. They are starting small businesses, such as auto
    repair shops, catering businesses, printing and packaging
    operations, and Web site development firms.
        In addition to competing in the for-profit marketplace,
    these mission-driven businesses often provide job training. One
    of these, for example, is Seattle-based Pioneer Human Services,
    which helps more than 5,000 ex-convicts, homeless, and drug-
    addicted individuals find jobs and rebuild their lives. They
    have a large business, which is a precision light-metal
    fabricator, that has become the principal supplier to Boeing
    Aircraft for their sheet-metal cargo bay liners.
        Each year more than 700,000 501(c)(3) and 501(c)(4)
    organizations deliver critical services to communities across
    the United States, but they do not have the resources to get to
    scale or to be sustainable.
        In 1984, we started Share Our Strength, an antihunger
    organization, and as a grant maker we did not want to
    redistribute wealth; we wanted to create new wealth. So we
    worked with corporate partners like American Express, Evian,
    Calphalon, Tyson Foods and others not in philanthropic
    relationships but in marketing partnerships that create new
    wealth. And then we created Community Wealth Ventures four
    years ago to help nonprofits improve their bottom line through
    the design and implementation of business ventures.
        Organizations that run a business also start to impart
    business thinking in their organization, and this impacts a
    nonprofit organization's accountability and program delivery.
        We are proposing that Congress authorize the SBA to create
    a pilot demonstration program to provide technical assistance
    and consulting to nonprofit organizations that receive federal
    funding and to help them establish for-profit ventures. This is
    not for every organization, and for organizations that choose
    to do it must compete fairly. But we believe that this
    entrepreneurship is for more nonprofit organizations than are
    currently doing it.
        This Committee has a proud legacy, Mr. Chairman, as you
    know, of helping organizations innovate and helping
    organizations break through to new areas. We believe the
    nonprofit sector is ripe for this now and able to create the
    kind of community wealth that we have described. Thank you very
    much for bringing and introducing this idea into the Congress.
        [Mr. Shore's statement may be found in appendix.]
        Chairman Manzullo. Thank you, Mr. Shore. You have got the
    right man here, who is looking at all of you and listening to
    these great ideas. Mr. Siccardi, you have had two introductions
    by two members of Congress.
        Mr. Siccardi. It is going to be hard to follow those
    gentlemen.
        Chairman Manzullo. There it is, one a Republican and one a
    Democrat. You want to pull the mike close to you there. Okay. I
    look forward to your testimony.

      STATEMENT OF FRANK J. SICCARDI, COENCO, INC., FAYETTEVILLE,
                                ARKANSAS

        Mr. Siccardi. Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member, and other
    members of the Committee, I am happy to be here to discuss with
    you today my work for the past 30 or 40 years.
        My name is Frank Siccardi. I am the president of a company
    called Coenco. That stands for Coordinated Environmental
    Control. Forty years of university, government, private
    independent research in many areas all can be generalized as
    looking for the cause, not the effect. I am not interested in
    the Band-Aid, and what that generally means is original
    thought. So one is not going along with the crowd. That means
    change, and most people do not like change or the people that
    propose change. It ain't easy, in plain language.
        I believe you will all agree that energy use and
    conservation and the related pollution problems are of a major
    concern to our society today in many, many ways. The work I am
    reporting on today potentially has a really significant impact
    on the total energy use of our country and the pollution
    problem. Basically, big buildings are energy hogs. We have a
    basketball arena at the university, and it only uses $30,000
    worth of gas and electric a month, which turns out to be 350 to
    $400,000 a year. That is a lot of energy for a building that is
    only used about 10 times a year.
        About eight years ago, my interest shifted to large
    buildings from the poultry industry. Basically, I am a
    veterinarian by training, but after a lot of good schooling and
    exposure overseas with USAID and other programs, I have had the
    opportunity to be able to look at things as basically a problem
    solver. About eight years ago, my interest shifted to large
    buildings: warehouses, factories, food plants, gymnasiums,
    coliseums, and so forth.
        Getting to the point, I have developed a totally new and
    different approach to big buildings. In its simplest sense, it
    is a unique air mover that shoots a bullet of air, and the net
    result is a series of these units allows us to create in a big
    building a uniform temperature and humidity, and now the big
    thing is the building and its contents becomes a thermal bank.
        For instance, there is a little company in Arkansas I work
    with, and they have a number of good-sized warehouses, 1.2
    million square feet, to be precise. We have a number of these
    under my control, and what we have found recently, and I might
    say that right now our knowledge and growth just continues to
    expand. To make a long story short, a 1.2 million-square-foot
    building, if it is under 80 and above 25 degrees, the energy
    use for that building to maintain 70 degrees is exactly $13.52
    a day at six-cent electricity.
        I see my time is up, but that is a measure of what we are
    talking about, and I have here a number of examples that I
    could go into that are just unbelievable what the opportunity
    is because we create a uniform temperature and humidity on a
    pulsing basis, very preciselycontrolled, and now the building
    and its contents does not want to go anywhere. Thank you.
        [Applause.]
        [Mr. Siccardi's statement may be found in appendix.]
        Chairman Manzullo. I see Gene Berg over here definitely
    wants to talk to you. His corn burner heats a 2,000 square-foot
    house on a bushel of corn a day, so that is quite efficient.
        Our next witness is Belinda Guadarrama from GC Micro
    Corporation, and if you could pull the mike up closer to you, I
    look forward to your testimony.

       STATEMENT OF BELINDA GUADARRAMA, GC MICRO CORP., NOVATO,
                               CALIFORNIA

        Ms. Guadarrama. Thank you. It is an honor to speak before
    the House of Representatives Committee on Small Business today.
    My name is Belinda Guadarrama, and my company is GC Micro. We
    have been providing personal computer hardware and software to
    the federal government and Fortune 1,000 customers across the
    nation since 1986.
        As a small business, GC Micro faced a number of challenges
    that are common to most small businesses. The lack of capital
    was a serious problem until I was able to obtain an SBA-
    guaranteed loan. As a woman and a minority, it has been
    difficult breaking into the established network. However, the
    federal contracting goals that have been established for small
    businesses have provided numerous opportunities for us.
        G.C. Micro is a proud participant of the SBA 8(a) program,
    and we will be graduating in August. I would like to thank the
    Small Business Administration for the opportunity to
    participate in Small Business Week. I am honored to be the
    Businessperson of the Year for California and delighted to be
    chosen as the second runner up for the national award. And, of
    course, it was also very exciting to meet President Bush and
    his dogs on Monday.
        However, I am concerned that some of Congress' original
    intentions under the Small Business Act are eroding over the
    years. There are three areas of concern that I would like to
    highlight. As an example, it is my understanding that the
    Lockheed Joint Strike Fighter contract has been awarded with no
    apparent small or minority business goals. Ten years ago, the
    House investigated the Lockheed F-22 fighter contract when it
    was discovered that the contract had been awarded with a one
    one-hundredth of 1 percent minority business goal and a sixteen
    one-hundredths small business goal. As a result of the
    investigation, the Air Force and Lockheed allocated an
    additional $500 million for small business.
        I would pose the question, how can a DoD contract be
    awarded without small and minority business goals being set in
    the contract? Unfortunately, there is also no strong mechanism
    to enforce small business goals. Federal law requires any
    contractor failing to make a good-faith effort to achieve their
    small business goals to pay liquidated damages back to the
    government. However, no contractor has ever been penalized with
    liquidated damages for failing to reach these easily achievable
    small business goals.
        And additional concern I have is the comprehensive test
    program for reporting subcontracting goals. This program was
    established to increase small business subcontracting by
    eliminating the requirement to report small business
    contracting performance on individual contracts. Eliminating
    individual contract reporting is similar to trying to improve
    the scholastic performance of students by eliminating report
    cards. I believe this allows contractors to circumvent
    accurately reporting their small business subcontracting
    performance. I believe that an inquiry into this program would
    show that in reality it has dramatically reduced business
    opportunities for both small and small, disadvantaged
    businesses.
        In closing, I believe Small Business Week is a celebration
    that demonstrates to major government contractors and federal
    agencies that when you embrace the nation's small business
    programs, you are expanding our country's economy and
    stimulating the economic engine that generates a major portion
    of the tax dollars that fund the government contracts.
        Chairman, Administrator, members, I thank you very much for
    the support and hard work that you do on behalf of small
    businesses.
        [Applause.]
        [Ms. Guadarrama's statement may be found in appendix.]
        Chairman Manzullo. Thank you.
        [Applause.]
        Chairman Manzullo. Our next witness comes from the State of
    Montana, where we had a very interesting time out there in West
    Yellowstone National Park, Brenda Burkhartsmeier. I look
    forward to your testimony, Brenda.

     STATEMENT OF BRENDA BURKHARTSMEIER, MOUNTAIN MUDD & MOUNTAIN
                    MANUFACTURING, BILLINGS, MONTANA

        Ms. Burkhartsmeier. Thank you very much. Small Business
    Week is a great celebration for all of us here, and small
    businesses come in all shapes and sizes, and our size is
    certainly one of the smaller ones. We started out in an eight-
    by-eight, drive-through, coffee kiosk in Billings, Montana, of
    all places.
        After attending the luncheon we had previous to this
    meeting, I am very proud and honored that we have someone such
    as yourself, Chairman Manzullo, with such a great fighting
    experience, and thank you very much for your dedication in
    fighting for us and the rest of the Committee.
        Like many small business owners, we had a vision back in
    1994, my sister-in-law and I, of starting a little coffee
    company. And probably the most frequent question I have been
    asked since I have been to Washington is not about the business
    but how did you come up with a name like Mountain Mudd. Well, I
    have to tell you that it was between Two Dumb Blondes Espresso
    or Mountain Mudd, so I am sure glad we chose the latter.
        As we pursued our idea, we wanted to do something
    different, and if you have been to West Yellowstone, you know
    that we can have a lot of snow. If you listened to the news
    this morning, we had over eight inches of snow just yesterday,
    and, well, we probably get two nice days out of the year, so we
    knew we could not do a sidewalk cafe like Starbucks. So we did
    a drive-through coffee kiosk with an enclosed environment, and
    it has really been the secret to our success.
        My husband and I, Dennis, built that first coffee kiosk in
    our friend's garage. It took us over four months to build it,
    and we had no idea what we were doing. But now our little
    company produces one building every other day, and we have a
    20,000 square-foot manufacturing plant. We have sold our coffee
    kiosks to 150 other individual people just like myself and my
    husband, and we impact over 400 hard-working individuals.
        The ideas, though, come with rules and regulations, and you
    touched on that in your speech. Not only federal government red
    tape and rules and regulations can hinder small businesses like
    ourselves from growing and prospering. When we go into a city
    or a community, we must deal with misconceptions and people not
    knowing exactly what our business is. It is a small, portable,
    little business on wheels. So we have to go through many local
    agencies, zoning issues, signpermits, planned urban development
    permits. I could go on and on and on.
        So I would urge you to definitely look into the red tape in
    small business because a small business can grow from a really
    small little dream into a big company, and thank you.
        [Applause.]
        [Ms. Burkhartsmeier's statement may be found in appendix.]
        Chairman Manzullo. Thank you. I am sorry. I am so tired.
        Ms. Millender-McDonald. That is all right, Mr. Chairman.
    Take a coffee break.
        Chairman Manzullo. I need that very much. Please go ahead.
        Ms. Millender-McDonald. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you
    so much for bringing these outstanding small business folks to
    us today. Given the National Small Business Week, we are so
    grateful to all of you and the work that you have done, and
    especially having the administrator sit on the dais with us, I
    tell you, this is really good news and hot stuff. To have him
    here, representing California and all others, and you, young
    woman, is it----
        Ms. Guadarrama. Guadarrama.
        Ms. Millender-McDonald [continuing]. Guadarrama,
    congratulations to you for California's best in small business.
        But I say to you, Mr. Chairman, that this is just a
    reflection of what can be done once you get a team of folks and
    people like these outstanding folks with your team behind you
    and your respective businesses working together and trying to
    be as efficient as you can. This as a ranking member on this
    Committee, and I applaud you and the young woman in the orange
    dress out there, your spirit is what has been the driving
    force. The energy that you brought in your presentation
    certainly is indicative of why you are successful. And so I
    have nothing else to say. What can you say to success but thank
    you?
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I turn it back to you with my
    statement for the record.
        [Ms. Millender-McDonald's statement may be found in
    appendix.]
        Chairman Manzullo. Thank you. Your statement will be
    included in the record. Congressman Thune?
        Mr. Thune. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I cannot add anything
    to that except to say thank you and congratulations to all of
    you. You are what the entrepreneurial spirit is all about, and
    I had the opportunity earlier--I just came from a meeting in my
    office with our Small Business of the Year award winner in the
    State of South Dakota. In South Dakota, I think every business
    is by definition small with a couple of exceptions, but they
    are really the job-creating engine, and we want to do
    everything we can to make sure that you have at your disposal
    the freedoms, the lack of regulatory and tax barriers in order
    to succeed, and if there are things that we can do with the
    programs that SBA administers, fine tune those to make those
    more workable to add to your success, we certainly want to be
    available to do that, and just appreciate the great job that
    you are doing out there creating jobs in this economy. Thank
    you very much for being here. It is wonderful to hear these
    powerful testimonies and success stories. It is kind of
    inspiring, actually. We might have to go try something else for
    a living, huh, guys?
        Ms. Millender-McDonald. Of course, you will.
        Chairman Manzullo. I have got just a couple of questions. I
    cannot ask a question of everybody, but I am fascinated by the
    power conversion to which you referred Mr. Siccardi. Would you
    explain this again?
        Mr. Siccardi. Basically, in a big building you have got a
    monstrous heater or air conditioner that makes cold air or hot
    air, and it comes in just like a mushroom, and then it goes
    out, and the air is not really distributed. In our building
    what we have been able to do is distribute the air effectively.
    For 30 seconds, 60 seconds our air movers are on, and then they
    sit there, and this monstrous building is 70 degrees, and it
    does not want to go anywhere. So consequently, the building and
    all its contents becomes a stable, uniform mass.
        I will give you another example. We work at a company in
    Arkansas that does canning of vegetables. Here is a 100,000
    square-foot warehouse full of canned goods, and we circulate
    the air, and in the wintertime these canned goods, 70 degrees,
    ceiling to floor. Right next door is another warehouse, 100,000
    feet, full of canned goods, and heaters are in the ceiling like
    in a regular building. A hundred and five on the ceiling. The
    temperature is 47 on the floor. That heat as it is going
    through the roof is taking all the heat of the building out.
    And the difference is when we do it our way, the building and
    all its stuff becomes the same temperature, and it does not go
    anywhere, and it just needs pulsing, very efficient pulsing. It
    is that simple.
        Another point.
        Chairman Manzullo. Go ahead.
        Mr. Siccardi. Oftentimes, in a large building the
    thermostat is over there against the wall. It has no
    relationship with the air of the building. In my presentation
    there is a very good demonstration of how when the system is
    on, we can go from 55 to 70 degrees just like that using
    100,000 BTUs, for instance. Without the circulation it takes,
    like, three hours and 800,000 BTUs for that thermostat to get
    satisfied. And the net result is in the regular building the
    temperature is going up and down. We are plus or minus one
    degree constantly. It is so simple it is ridiculous. The unique
    thing is, as a friend of mine with a large, major control
    company said, it is unbelievable, but what you did is about
    what is up there, which we do not pay attention to in regular--
    --
        Chairman Manzullo. So you take and you jet--what is the
    word?--jet streams of air----
        Mr. Siccardi. Boulevair.
        Chairman Manzullo [continuing]. Boulevair, and that breaks
    up the mass.
        Mr. Siccardi. And it goes to the wall and gets all the air
    in the building moving.
        Chairman Manzullo. So what normally would cost how much for
    a regular gas bill for a building, how much would you save by
    using that method?
        Mr. Siccardi. Depending on the geography and the
    circumstances, it can be as much as, depending on what is
    really going on, it could be 50, 75 or more percent. Hopefully,
    you will read my report.
        Chairman Manzullo. I will. The complete statements of the
    witnesses and members of Congress will be made part of the
    record. Gene, would you tell us how you came across that corn
    burner? I think you were looking at an ad in Forbes Junior, or
    what was it?
        Mr. Berg [continuing]. Fortune magazine had an
    advertisement about a small company in Hutchinson, Minnesota.
        Chairman Manzullo. It was an article, not an advertisement.
        Mr. Berg. Article. I am sorry.
        Chairman Manzullo. Go ahead.
        Mr. Berg [continuing]. In Hutchinson, Minnesota, that had
    developed a very efficient way to burn corn and other fuels,
    but corn being the primary fuel, as an alternative to wood
    burning, wood being not a very efficient fuel and also a dirty
    fuel. In fact, there are cities in areas in this country that
    are beginning to outlaw wood burning because of the pollution
    factor.
        So he developed this corn-burning technology. Literally, a
    bushel of corn goes into the hopper, and as Don mentioned
    earlier, that will heat a 2,000 square-foot home easily for a
    day, and so abushel of corn is, I do not know, a couple of
    bucks, Don knows----
        Chairman Manzullo. It is a dollar eighty-one.
        Mr. Berg. So it literally is that simple. There is a
    thermostat so it pulses the corn in there a few kernels at a
    time and keeps a very, very hot fire. I think corn burns at
    1,100 degrees, wood at three or 400 degrees, and so it gives
    you a feeling for being a much better fuel, and it is clean. It
    does not smell. You have seen it, Don.
        Chairman Manzullo. I have seen it. I asked you to bring the
    machine here.
        Mr. Berg. Security would not let me.
        Chairman Manzullo. Security would not let you bring it in.
    But this was a frustrated inventor. There was an article
    written by him in Fortune magazine, and then you read about
    him.
        Mr. Berg. Yeah. I did not fully answer your question. I
    read about him in Fortune magazine. He said he could have sold
    50,000 of these in the winter of 2000 had he been able to build
    them. But he had a relatively small shop, more of an inventor
    than he was a manufacturer, and that is the kind of work that
    we do and do well. So we went and met him, introduced
    ourselves, and said that we would like to make those stoves for
    you, and so he awarded us the contract late last year, and we
    have been making those stoves since right around Christmas
    time.
        Chairman Manzullo. Now what is unique about this corn
    burner is the fact that it is 100 percent corn.
        Mr. Berg. Correct.
        Chairman Manzullo. You do not have to integrate any other
    fuels in it.
        Mr. Berg. Correct.
        Chairman Manzullo. And then what is it about this burner
    that has very little residue, no odor, and very little smoke?
        Mr. Berg. He will not tell me.
        Chairman Manzullo. It is efficiency----
        Mr. Berg. It is efficiency. It is the way he moves the air.
    It is also the fact that in the burning pot, the burning
    chamber, he stirs the corn as it burns, which does not allow a
    buildup of the residue that you would get from burning corn if
    it were just idle or sitting in the chamber. So it is a
    combination of its design, the way he brings the air in, and
    the fact that he stirs the corn with a computer algorithm that
    allows him to not have the buildup and do such a great job of
    heating.
        Chairman Manzullo. Does this corn have to be totally dry
    before it goes into the hopper?
        Mr. Berg. You can go to, you know, 13, 14 percent moisture.
    Standard corn. You do not have to have any special drying. One
    of our employees, the team members, bought one at a substantial
    discount that you can have, Don. He bought one of these, and he
    literally brings his pickup truck to the farmer down the
    street, dumps it into his pickup truck. He takes it home and
    puts them into 55-gallon drums that we give him.
        Chairman Manzullo. So this corn is dried in the field, or
    does the farmer have to dry it in the elevator?
        Mr. Berg. Yes.
        Chairman Manzullo. It has to be in the elevator.
        Mr. Berg. Correct.
        Chairman Manzullo. Okay. I just want to let you know that
    there is a company out there that is working on a genetically
    modified, a GMO corn product that will dry in the field. I have
    not told you about that yet.
        Mr. Berg. No. I am interested in knowing about that.
        Chairman Manzullo. I told them about that machine that you
    are working with. And the goal there is if it is possible to
    dry the corn in the field, then you can go directly from the
    field to the hopper----
        Mr. Berg. Right.
        Chairman Manzullo [continuing]. Which would revolutionize
    heating in this country by making it a totally renewable energy
    without having to use gas in order to dry the kernel before it
    goes in. Plus what I noticed when I was there in Byron is that
    corn is not totally dry.
        Mr. Berg. No.
        Chairman Manzullo. It still had a lot of moisture content
    in it. So very good. Congresswoman Velazquez.
        Ms. Velazquez. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I want to thank
    all of you again for being here. I am sorry I was not able to
    stay, but I had two more meetings back in my office.
        I think it is appropriate that during this week we
    celebrate small business to talk about the role that the Small
    Business Administration plays in helping small businesses.
    Brenda, I saw that in your testimony you said that your initial
    startup financing came from a cashing of a life insurance
    policy and a 401K. At the time, were you aware of the SBA
    financing products?
        Ms. Burkhartsmeier. We certainly were aware that the
    products were out there, but like a lot of entrepreneurial type
    of people we were so excited about the idea and the end result
    that we did not take the time to do a very good business plan,
    or we did not take the time to do a well-executed strategy of
    how we were going to do the business. When we went into our
    local economic development company, we were a bit put off by
    the approach. When we went in, we were told, well, you have got
    to have a business plan. You have got to have this. You have
    got to have that. We really thought naively that, gee, we were
    nice and cute, and we thought we would go in and waltz in and
    get the money.
        Well, it does not happen in business. So really we did know
    about it. The information is out there, and it really takes
    other people, other business people trying to help other
    business people to know where the information is. I think the
    Web had certainly helped because now people, without getting
    embarrassed going into that local economic development person
    and being told what you need and kind of intimidated, they can
    preliminarily look at that site and qualify themselves before
    they go in. But still, we could not have gotten the loan
    because there was no business like ours, and so we had to
    establish the track record, and now our businesses that we sell
    to, the 150 other people, do have a track record to follow. We
    would not have gotten the loan--well, we maybe would have, but
    there certainly was not anyone in our industry at that time.
        Ms. Velazquez. So how do you think an SBA loan would have
    benefited you when you started your business?
        Ms. Burkhartsmeier. Well, we certainly would have not had
    to have sold our car. We certainly would not have had to maybe
    ruin your credit going along the way because you are robbing
    Peter to pay Paul. All small business people do that when they
    are starting out. We would have had the capital, and maybe we
    would have had some more mentoring and some tutoring along the
    way to teach us. But as small business people, we do need to
    make mistakes, and we certainly made lots of them, and now we
    teach other people how not to make those same mistakes.
        Ms. Velazquez. Can any of the other members of the panel
    who have used any of the SBA products talk to us about how you
    benefited or how your business would have done much better if
    you had the opportunity to use any of those products like
    loans? Yes?
        Ms. Guadarrama. When I originally started GC Micro, the
    startup capital that I had to work with was from the sale of my
    house back in Texas. That was $20,000, and I went throughthat
    very quickly. I would not have been able to grow the company if a
    number of years later I had not been able to receive a bank loan that
    was SBA guaranteed, and that was a $300,000 loan, and that made all the
    difference in the world to us. Once we had that first loan in place and
    were able to pay it off, then at that point the other banks became
    interested in working with us, and it just made a tremendous
    difference.
        The other part of the SBA that we have worked with is with
    the 8(a) program, and while we probably only do maybe 15 to 20
    percent of our business under the 8(a) program, the first large
    contract that we received was through the 8(a) program. In
    trying to put that contract together, we also went to the
    Minority Business Development Agency to actually help us put
    together the contract language because we had not worked with
    it before. So working both with the MBDA and through the 8(a)
    program, we were able to put our first really large contract in
    place, then had the experience to start looking at other
    contracts. So it made a big difference in my company.
        Ms. Velazquez. Thank you, Belinda. Any other person who
    would like to comment? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Chairman Manzullo. Could you yield for a second?
        Ms. Velazquez. Sure.
        Chairman Manzullo. Didn't one of the witnesses have an SBIR
    loan? The SBIR program; did anybody participate in that? You
    did, didn't you, Frank?
        Mr. Siccardi. No. I need to in the worst way from this
    point on.
        Chairman Manzullo. First, I want to thank you all for
    coming today. Administrator Baretto, thank you for
    participating. I wanted you up here to sort of get a different
    perspective. I wanted you to look at the people that have come
    here especially to thank you for the great work that the Small
    Business Administration has done. You know, Mr. Baretto was
    sworn in--was it August?
        Mr. Baretto. It was July 25th.
        Chairman Manzullo. And then within what, five weeks, five
    six weeks, September 11th came along and really turned this
    town upside down. But to all of you people here, you represent
    such a great cross-section of America. You are from everywhere.
    We have got Montana and Illinois and California. But what is
    important is the fact that these programs exist in the SBA only
    to the extent that people know about them, and that is the
    biggest problem that we have.
        We still struggle with 9/11 in New York with the small
    businesses up there because the SBA only has unfortunately very
    limited authority with the distribution of the help, and we are
    going to be having a hearing in New York City on why the big
    companies are getting all the money, and the small businesses
    are being hurt in a dramatic way. We would like to give the SBA
    more authority over how to use that money because they are the
    experts at it. They know what a disaster is, nothing like 9/11.
    So, again, I want to thank you all for coming out here.
        Mr. Baretto, did you want to have a closing comment?
        Mr. Baretto. I just want to thank you, Mr. Chairman, and
    Ranking Member Velazquez. I have appreciated the working
    relationship we have had. I very much look forward to continue
    working with you. You told me early on that this committee is a
    bipartisan committee, and there are only business solutions,
    not partisan solutions, and you have proven that, and it has
    been a pleasure to work with you.
        I also want to recognize a couple of the other individuals
    that do great work for us. A lot of the questions were on
    regulations. The chief counsel of advocacy of the SBA is here,
    Tom Sullivan, and also Michael Barrera, the national ombudsman.
    Any of you who are having any issues with regulations, I invite
    you to get to know them. And thank you so much again for all
    your leadership and everything that you do to make American
    small business strong. We appreciate it very, very much. Can we
    give the congressmen and the ranking member a round of
    applause?
        [Applause.]
        Chairman Manzullo. This hearing is adjourned.
        [Whereupon, at 4:30 p.m., the committee was adjourned.]
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