[House Hearing, 107 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
PROTECTING SMALL BUSINESS AND NATIONAL PARKS: THE GOALS ARE NOT
MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
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FIELD HEARING
before the
COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED SEVENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
__________
WEST YELLOWSTONE, MONTANA, JANUARY 26, 2002
__________
Serial No. 107-40
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Small Business
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
78-291 WASHINGTON : 2002
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COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
DONALD MANZULLO, Illinois, Chairman
LARRY COMBEST, Texas NYDIA M. VELAZQUEZ, New York
JOEL HEFLEY, Colorado JUANITA MILLENDER-McDONALD,
ROSCOE G. BARTLETT, Maryland California
FRANK A. LoBIONDO, New Jersey DANNY K. DAVIS, Illinois
SUE W. KELLY, New York BILL PASCRELL, Jr., New Jersey
STEVE CHABOT, Ohio DONNA M. CHRISTENSEN, Virgin
PATRICK J. TOOMEY, Pennsylvania Islands
JIM DeMINT, South Carolina ROBERT A. BRADY, Pennsylvania
JOHN R. THUNE, South Dakota TOM UDALL, New Mexico
MICHAEL PENCE, Indiana STEPHANIE TUBBS JONES, Ohio
MIKE FERGUSON, New Jersey CHARLES A. GONZALEZ, Texas
DARRELL E. ISSA, California DAVID D. PHELPS, Illinois
SAM GRAVES, Missouri GRACE F. NAPOLITANO, California
EDWARD L. SCHROCK, Virginia BRIAN BAIRD, Washington
FELIX J. GRUCCI, Jr., New York MARK UDALL, Colorado
TODD W. AKIN, Missouri JAMES R. LANGEVIN, Rhode Island
SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West Virginia MIKE ROSS, Arkansas
BILL SHUSTER, Pennsylvania BRAD CARSON, Oklahoma
ANIBAL ACEVEDO-VILA, Puerto Rico
Doug Thomas, Staff Director
Phil Eskeland, Deputy Staff Director
Michael Day, Minority Staff Director
C O N T E N T S
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Page
Hearing held on January 26, 2002................................. 1
Witnesses
Mainella, Hon. Fran, Director, National Park Service............. 1
Walker, Robert, Flagg Ranch Resort............................... 12
Seely, Clyde, Yellowstone Tour & Travel.......................... 13
Buller, Melissa, Free Heel and Wheel............................. 15
Mathews, Jackie, Greater Yellowstone Coalition................... 17
Loomis, Glen, Yellowstone Motorsport............................. 19
Appendix
Opening statements:
Manzullo, Hon. Donald........................................ 45
Prepared statements:
Mainella, Hon. Fran.......................................... 47
Walker, Robert............................................... 52
Seely, Clyde................................................. 58
Buller, Melissa.............................................. 73
Mathews, Jackie.............................................. 75
Loomis, Glen................................................. 146
Additional Information:
Statement of Congressman Rush D. Holt........................ 157
Letter to Hon. Norton from SBA............................... 160
Letter to Committee from Scott Carsley, owner, Yellowstone
Aplen Guides............................................... 173
Letter to Chairman Manzullo from Senator Baucus.............. 180
Letter to Chairman Manzullo from Peter Grant................. 182
Bozeman Daily Chronicle article ``Congressman Stands up for
Snowmobilers''............................................. 184
PROTECTING SMALL BUSINESS AND NATIONAL PARKS: THE GOALS ARE NOT
MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
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SATURDAY, JANUARY 26, 2002
House of Representatives,
Committee on Small Business,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to call, at 10 a.m., at the
Holiday Inn SunSpree Resort, 315 Yellowstone Avenue, West
Yellowstone, Montana, Hon. Donald A. Manzullo (chair of the
Committee) presiding.
Chairman Manzullo. The United States House of
Representatives Committee on Small Business will come to order.
Can you hear back there? Is this on?
Audience. No.
Chairman Manzullo. Is that better; can you hear me back
there?
Audience. No.
Chairman Manzullo. Got to get it real close. We're going to
hold off on opening formalities and opening statements and move
immediately into the testimony of Fran Mainella; is that right,
who's----
Ms. Mainella. Thank you.
Chairman Manzullo [continuing]. The Director of the
National Park Service, who just happened to be in West
Yellowstone on the day we scheduled this hearing. So I'm going
to move immediately into your testimony. If you want to take a
minute to introduce the people that are with you and the
directors, et cetera.
STATEMENT OF FRAN P. MAINELLA, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL PARK SERVICE
Ms. Mainella. I'd be glad to. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, very
pleased to be here. I'm Fran Mainella, National Park Service
Director. I do want to introduce to everyone, if we could have
a moment.
Currently, our acting superintendent for Yellowstone, Frank
Walker, if you would please stand. And our incoming
superintendent for Yellowstone, Suzanne Lewis, will you please
stand. Our acting superintendent for the Grand Tetons, Steve
Iobst, if you would please stand. And our incoming
superintendent for the Tetons, Steve Martin, would you please
stand. And also, we have with us Karen Wade, who is our
regional director for all these parks, about 80 some though
actually, throughout your area--90. The number continues to
grow. And I just want to say thank you. I also--we have a
number of people here from the Park Service but I want to thank
all of them for being here and also all of you and Mr. Chairman
and Congressman Rehberg. I appreciate your willingness to allow
me to speak for a few minutes today.
I think the importance, as you know, of Yellowstone is not
only just an importance to this community and to this Nation
and internationally, and it is important that all of us give it
the energy and time and I appreciate your consideration of
this.
One of the areas that I've probably been best known for and
I was previously--I know some folks will--how much snowmobiling
has she done? She's from the State of Florida. I was twelve
years the State park director in Florida, but I have--I
originally grew up in New England. I have some experience with
snowmobiles.
But I think the biggest thing that--I am familiar with
working with communities. And that is something that I think
that you'll find that you particularly, as we hired our new--
two new superintendents, one of the things we looked at is not
only their knowledge of the resources and their ability to work
in both visitor services and resource management, but also
their ability to partner and work with communities. And I think
you'll see that as an important part. It's an important part of
any efforts.
And you know Secretary Norton, Secretary of the Interior,
she talks about the importance of partnership and the
importance of working with communities. And you will see that
consistently as we go through our supplemental EIS as well as
anything we do with national parks throughout this Nation.
We also know that we always have the balancing act that we
make sure we protect those resources. We do not want impairment
but we also want them for future generations as well as making
sure that there is proper, environmentally appropriate access
to our parks and also respectful--and I think in your
particular Committee, the economic impacts that parks play in
this community but across this Nation. And it's something that
I think is very important for us. In fact, when I was in
Florida, I served on the commission on tourism because of the
realization that parks play such an important part in the
economy of that particular State and also in the tourism role.
But again that balancing that you must do between resources and
the economic impact and the ability to make sure that we are
all working at a successful manner.
As we go forth, as you know at this point, there has been a
decision made back in November of 2000, that was going to move
us from any snowmobiles in the park at all to solely snow
coaches over--in a phase out program. The Committee that had
come forth--in fact, the Small Business Committee that had
expressed some concern on that to Secretary Norton, I believe,
that took place just recently, prior to the June time was--
expressed some concern about the economic analysis that was
done that is required due to the Flexibility Act and the
Fairness Act that acquires those things to be addressed. And
this is something that as we go through the supplemental EIS,
we will continue to look at the economic analysis and make sure
that those appropriate reviews are done, and we will live up to
those statutes.
But at the same time what we want to make sure is that we
move forward with our supplemental EIS, and I want to commend
both Steve Iobst and Frank Walker, particularly what we've been
doing most recently with kind of a pilot program this winter,
with working with the communities more than we have ever done
in the past; doing programs with the hotels and other areas. I
was being briefed even more on that this morning, talk about
proper using, proper--working well with the community. Selling
passes at the chamber of commerce rather than at the gate as
you enter the park and all the benefits that has provided, not
only environmentally and probably for the comfort of the
snowmobilers, but also for the partnership ability to have us
all be working together at a greater manner.
In June of--29th of 2001, the Secretary did decide that we
do move forward with a supplemental EIS. We're in that process
now and in fact we would expect that very shortly, in the next
week or two in February, we will be going on the west--on the
Internet for the four alternatives that expect to come forward.
And I think that it's a more diverse grouping than what we have
seen in the past. We'll be having that go on.
The actual comment period won't begin until approximately
March 29th, as far as the official 60 day, where the clock
begins. But we want to encourage comments even earlier. That's
why we're getting it on the Web early on, so that people can
give comments. We've been working start moving forward with
making determinations of how we go forward. And it's supposed
to be, I believe November of 2002, for us to have the final
determination on what we're going forward with as far as either
continuing the original rule that came forward or going with
one of the alternatives or some variation off of one of those
alternatives.
At this point again, I think the most important thing is I
wanted you to make sure you knew that we are very respectful of
our obligations that we need to be making in the meeting, as
far as the Flexibility Act and the Fairness Act that is
required as we go through this process, and I think we're again
going to be working with outside sources to help us make sure
those analyses are done in a way that we feel can be
substantiated and have the good science behind them so that we
can go forward.
The only other things I want to just talk about again is
the importance that the Secretary, Secretary Norton, plays on
what she calls her four cc's, dealing with conservation but
also make sure we also have cooperation, consultation and
communication taking place at all times. I think when she and
the President selected me to serve, that was part of what they
saw in me and my past history, and I think what I will see from
the superintendents that are coming on here as well as the
past--some of the other folks that we have been working with, I
think know that these are important parts to play and we will
get our commitment to be working in that direction. I would
welcome questions and again, you have my written testimony.
Chairman Manzullo. The written testimony will be made part
of the testimony.
[Ms. Mainella's statement may be found in appendix.]
Chairman Manzullo. Mr. Rehberg.
Mr. Rehberg. Thank you. And, Ms. Mainella, thank you for
being with us. We appreciate the opportunity timely as it was
to have you here and nice to meet you.
Ms. Mainella. Thank you.
Mr. Rehberg. Within the various alternatives that you will
be considering, once they're placed on the Internet and into
the record, they can be amended thereafter based upon the
context or do you have--context from the public or do you have
to make a decision based upon the alternatives presented on the
Internet and ultimately put up----
Ms. Mainella. I will--periodically you'll see me turn over
to my legislative counsel and also--my understanding is we put
out four alternatives but in the end we could end up, based on
comments and input, with some variation that may spin off of
one of those.
Mr. Rehberg. Based upon your prior history then of
community involvement, that's the reason for this hearing,
that's the reason I had the Missouri Breaks, the new monument
up there, to try to bring additional input, give everybody
their opportunity to have their day in court. Do you foresee
consideration within your alternatives for the peripheral
impact on the community?
And where I'm going with this is there are four million
spring and summer visitors to Yellowstone Park. If there is
something that disrupts the provision of services in the winter
that may end up costing businesses their opportunity to do
business and then there would not be the opportunity to have
enough beds, motel rooms, restaurants in West Yellowstone for
the spring and summer population, will your consideration of
snowmobile usage within the park put in the consideration to
the community for things that will ultimately benefit the park?
Because you don't want to have to create that opportunity
within the park.
Ms. Mainella. We always love to work with our gateway
communities and find ways to provide opportunities in those
gateway communities to meet some of the needs of the park. And
as we get input and again, the Secretary, myself, and I think
all our staff are really receptive to hearing from different
opportunities.
And as you know, we have been experimenting with different
gateway community--there's even some legislation I believe that
is trying to move forward, not dealing so much with Yellowstone
but just dealing with how can we work better, with--not just we
as national parks but public lands as a whole, work better with
our gateway communities. Because oftentimes we want to make
sure the resources--hopefully we always want to make sure our
resources are well protected in our parks, but in doing that it
may mean if there is a need for more beds or other things, that
the gateway communities can help us meet that endeavor.
In fact, we've even been looking at and this is kind of a
spin off--we're doing a pilot that will be coming forth shortly
on how we can do housing additionally besides being in the park
for our own employees, but work with our gateway communities to
find abilities to put some of our employees housing; and many
of that's here already. And many of that's here already.
Because partnerships are win-win. Winning means the park has to
make sure that resources are well protected, the visitors well
served, but also we need to make sure we work well with the
community. So everybody--no one maybe gets exactly all that
they're looking for but basically we feel like each has a win
taking place.
Mr. Rehberg. Will those kind of alternatives show up in
the--those kinds of ideas show up in the alternative?
Ms. Mainella. I think it's all going to depend on the
comments that come in, because we shouldn't probably
predetermine in advance what those comments are going to be
until we open them, but we would want to be reflective of those
comments and then make determinations that could hopefully
reflect some of those options.
Mr. Rehberg. One final question, Mr. Chairman, and that is
the chicken and the egg situation. We talked about snow
coaches, but if they're not available, they're not available.
Ford Motor Company has stepped forward on the buses in Glacier
Park. They don't seem to be moving quite as quickly for one
reason or another. Are you going to be able to take
administratively a position of if certain things happen then
this decision will be made, but if this doesn't happen in a
timely fashion, there will be an economic disruption to the
community and X will happen. Can you do that within the
alternatives and ultimately?
Ms. Mainella. My understanding, we can, you know, as the
alternatives, we can look at the alternatives, there's four to
give comment on; but as we work off--I know one of the--already
just from the cooperators and others, we ended up moving like
an additional One-A and One-B alternative to make Ford--to push
back even consideration to snow coaches as quickly as the
record of decision would come forth because of not having the
possibility of having them in place. You can't put something in
a game plan if you can't produce that option. So you have to be
ready to make whatever modifications are ready to do, you know,
to reflect what--what is realistic.
Mr. Rehberg. So you would be able to spread out the time
of, if there is a phasing down of the number of machines per
day----
Ms. Mainella. That very well could be. Again, the only
thing we can do is--and I think the advice we've been given is
make sure when you go out with those alternatives, you're
here--we're here to listen, take input and then formulate from
those ideas and a work with our cooperators and help with that
cooperation.
Mr. Rehberg. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Manzullo. I have a question as to the procedure,
my understanding is that you're working with a supplemental
EIS?
Ms. Mainella. That's correct sir.
Chairman Manzullo. That will be done when?
Ms. Mainella. We're supposed to have the--that out on the
Internet, I would say February--in the second week of February,
is that--end of the second week of February. And so that will
be the four alternatives to at least start making comment on.
Our official--where we print hard copy, not via the Internet
but hard copy will be coming out in March. I think that final
has to be out and circulated March 29th and then they have 60
days. That's where the official legal clock begins. But we want
to get it out, use our Internet as a method to get this message
out more aggressively so people could have more input time to
make those comments and make sure we're hearing and responding
accordingly.
Chairman Manzullo. When is the proposed rule going to be
issued?
Ms. Mainella. I would ask the----
Mr. Iobst. Rule is published on the same----
Ms. Mainella. This is Steve Iobst.
Mr. Iobst. The proposed rule would be published through the
Federal Register, March 29th, supplemental, draft supplemental
comes out for public review and March 29th when you begin the
notice of availability for the Federal Register on proposed
rule.
Ms. Mainella. That's where comments start coming in.
Mr. Iobst. And they basically parallel each other.
Ms. Mainella. I think what the chairman has asked, maybe,
if I may, is when--I think it's November of 2002 when the
actual final rule comes forth again.
Mr. Iobst. That's correct. November 15th.
Ms. Mainella. November 15th. So that's----
Chairman Manzullo. Isn't the preferred method to have a
period of time to comment on the supplemental EIS and then come
out with the proposed rule? The way I look at it here, you
could get all the information you want on the supplemental EIS,
but I don't know if that information would be going into the
proposed rule, because----
Ms. Mainella. We're mandated to work from that--those--from
the supplemental EIS to lead into that rule. And so as we go
forth, what would be the--as we come up with draft rule
following the--when does the--after the 60 day comment period
closes, which would be April 29th--May 29th, from there, Steve,
then once that closes, then we go into a process of actually
starting to draft some kind of final rule that would come out
as a result of that; is that right?
Mr. Iobst. Draft both the final supplemental EIS as well as
the final rule.
Ms. Mainella. Final rule and final--because this is still a
draft EIS.
Mr. Iobst. And the draft EIS leads towards the record of
decision which is the closure of the NEPA and the final rule is
the closure of the rule making process. That's the reason why
those are paralleling, is that's the time frame.
Ms. Mainella. The settlement agreement set that time on it.
Chairman Manzullo. I guess my question is if people want to
have input on the supplemental EIS and on those who are
drafting the rule, wouldn't you want the benefit of all those
comments before you do the proposed rule?
Ms. Mainella. We won't do the proposed rule until after all
those comments have come in. In other words, you're going to go
through all of----
Chairman Manzullo. But the proposed rule is going to be
open for comment at the same time as the supplemental EIS. Why
don't you come up--Steve, why don't you introduce yourself.
Ms. Mainella. I think there's a microphone right over
there.
Chairman Manzullo. That's why we bring our assistants with
us, to answer the technical questions.
Ms. Mainella. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Iobst. That's Steve Iobst. The last name is I-O-B as in
boy, S-T, the acting superintendent at Grand Teton National
Park. The approach that we're talking on the development of a
proposed rule that again parallels the same time frame as the
draft supplemental EIS is that what we are going to do is--what
we are proposing to do with the proposing rule is to extend the
phase in period of the decision and so that when somebody sees
the proposed rule, basically we are proposing to extend the
implementation that then allows us to go through the
supplemental environmental impact statement process, to final
supplemental and then develop a final rule after the SEIS
process is complete. So in effect, what you're suggesting is
actually what's going to happen. But in order to meet the
requirements of the settlement agreement, we do have to publish
a proposed rule at the same time we come out with a draft
supplemental EIS.
Chairman Manzullo. I guess my question is that. I wasn't
privy to the lawsuit or the settlement obviously, but how can
you possibly draft a proposed rule without having the ability
to look at the supplemental EIS and all the changes. The
supplemental EIS is what drives the proposed rule.
Mr. Iobst. That's correct, and that's why we are heading
towards doing a proposed rule that does nothing more than delay
implementation of the current----
Chairman Manzullo. I understand. That gives you the leeway
to----
Ms. Mainella [continuing]. Covers us so we cannot have to
be implementing the current rule by giving----
Chairman Manzullo. I understand.
Mr. Rehberg. But you will still be following the law of
public participation because they will still have the
legitimate time to respond to the comments that came up that
did not fit into the supplemental EIS.
Mr. Iobst. That's correct.
Mr. Rehberg. They will still--there will not be an
opportunity then to delay one more time either through a
lawsuit or some other argument because the dates were not met
after you've considered the variables to the supplemental EIS?
Mr. Iobst. That's correct. We'll have that public comment
period, again both to the draft rule as well as to the draft
supplemental, realizing that the comment period for the draft
rule is not a draft rule that implements an alternative. It
just delays--defers implementation so that again there will be
the opportunity to have a record of decision that is--that
completes the EIS process, and then after which there will be a
final rule making, a proposed final rule making process that
will implement.
Mr. Rehberg. Did the settlement document you mentioned
November 15th of 2002, is that the drop dead----
Mr. Iobst. That is in the settlement agreement.
Mr. Rehberg. It has to be done by----
Mr. Iobst. That's correct.
Ms. Mainella. And we've been appreciative of all the folks
working with us because we want to get it on the Internet, but
we want to make sure we have as much input on the front side.
That's why we've been working with different options. The folks
here in the community, the cooperators and others that have
worked with us in allowing to us--originally we were going to
get on the Internet on January 21st or something of that
nature. But because we wanted to get more input on that before
we went on the Internet--I guarantee we will be having, you
know, input, plenty of time for input. In fact we're going
beyond the legal requirements of input by doing it on the
Internet before the actual clock starts ticking.
Chairman Manzullo. Is the Internet site up?
Ms. Mainella. Pardon?
Chairman Manzullo. Is the Internet site up yet?
Ms. Mainella. That's part--that's the part that's a little
bit of a challenge right now.
Mr. Iobst. We realize the implications of the Department of
the Interior National Park Service Internet site. Therefore we
are establishing a commercial Website to post of the Website
on.
Chairman Manzullo. Do you have the address of the Website?
Mr. Iobst. It's WWW--is--no, that's not what it is.
Ms. Mainella. We will make sure----
Mr. Iobst. We don't have that yet. It's a commercial site
that we're actually establishing through a commercial firm in
Jackson, Wyoming. When we do the announcement of its
availability on the Internet, which will be sometime around the
first week, beginning of the first week of February,
anticipating taking a few days to get it up and running, that
will be announced and we also are--people that have been
involved in this process starting back in early 1998, which is
up--a mailing list of up to about 85 thousand, they all get a
post card that has the Internet site on it as well as do they
want a copy to be mailed to them on March 29th. So there will
be a--and then we'll be public--you know, press releases
through news media out of Yellowstone and Denver and Grand--and
Jackson, Grand Teton National Park, announcing the availability
on the Website and what that Website is.
Ms. Mainella. And we will, Mr. Chairman, make sure the
Committee has all that information so we will make sure you
receive that.
Chairman Manzullo. I have no further questions.
Mr. Rehberg. I do not either.
Chairman Manzullo. Appreciate the fact that you're here
coincidentally and able to appear with us Steve.
Ms. Mainella. I thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Manzullo. You have an airplane to catch.
Ms. Mainella. Actually, Mr. Chairman, I'm going to be doing
some snow coaching, snowmobiling and a few other experiences
and a chance again to visit with some of your constituents just
yesterday, and they all wish you the best.
Chairman Manzullo. Thank you so much. If we could have the
second panel come up. Phil, if you could put a chair there, as
we have each person testify, I'm just going to have them move
to the place where Director Mainella was sitting, that way, get
better eye contact with the public. Second panel.
What we're going to do is the witnesses up here will give
their testimony then Congressman Rehberg and I will ask them
questions. And then we're going to do something a little bit
unusual for congressional committees. We're going to set up a
public microphone out there and if you want to give a comment,
we'll have to put a time limitation on it. We'll see where we
are and then just line up to give the comments and we'll have
to cut it off after a certain period of time. We're missing
somebody. Bob. Is Bob Coe here? No. Well, let's move into our
opening statements and do some of the formalities now.
You might want to ask yourself a question, why did the
Chairman of the Committee on Small Business travel from
Washington, DC, to West Yellowstone, Montana, to convene a
field hearing on snowmobile access to America's national parks
and in particular, Yellowstone National Park.
This Small Business Committee has spent a considerable
amount of time dealing with the Federal Government in two
aspects. One is in the regulatory aspect and the other is in
the competitive. We were able, in hearings this past year, to
do a couple of things. It was a small business hearing that
stopped the Department of the Army from buying black berets for
our servicemen and women from China and other countries. So you
can thank us for being out on the leading edge of that in a
very contentious 4\1/2\ hour hearing.
The Small Business Committee had to subpoena in several
witnesses and several documents to put an end to the
disgraceful practice carried on by our own government in
preferring foreign competitors for clothing and shoes as
opposed to our domestic competitors. That law has now been
changed. It's back into effect where it was before and it
resulted in saving literally hundreds of jobs.
Secondly, we got involved with the Veterans Administration
when they decided to go into the commercial laundry business.
They were contracting for colleges and universities and hotels.
We held a hearing in Washington, and stopped that practice.
Someone from the VA came in and said, Congressman, we
understand that the VA should not be in competition with small
businesses. That decision by the VA saved a hundred jobs in the
congressional district that I represent, which is the northern
part of Illinois.
We also got involved with the Federal Prison Industries.
This is an organization that makes products in the Federal
prisons at wages that are about 25 cents an hour. So when
people talk about importing things from China and other
countries where they pay low wages, the United States itself is
one of the lowest wage payers. And we got the Federal Prison
Industries out of making electronics because they were knocking
out hundreds if not thousands of American jobs.
So that's why we're here. We're concerned many times about
an overactive government or a government that's lost its focus.
This came to our attention several years ago when we discovered
the trail of snowmobiling starts in the national park here and
in West Yellowstone, but it has a national impact. It's a seven
to eight billion dollar industry. And so we're here to talk
about that. Talk about the economic impact and obviously,
balancing that with the necessity to have a good environment.
My wife is a microbiologist who traveled with me but
unfortunately, she's ill this morning and she's in the room.
She understands this. I've practiced a lot of environmental law
when I was in the private sector. We also have a teenager who's
a severe asthmatic, so we have a distinct interest in making
sure that the environment is clean.
The recreational use of snowmobiles has a significant
economic impact on small businesses in small rural communities
dependent upon winter tourism, including West Yellowstone,
Montana. Production of use of snowmobiles contributes seven to
eight billion dollars in the American economy, creates roughly
75 thousand jobs, most of which are located in small
businesses. When the National Park Service issued its final
rule phasing out snowmobiles in Yellowstone National Park, it
determined that the final rule would not have a significant
economic impact on a substantial number of small entities. A
drive through West Yellowstone, Montana, quickly will
demonstrate the fallacy of that conclusion. That's when the
Small Business Committee and the Small Business Administration
through Office of Advocacy got involved and said this is small
business.
Almost all the businesses in West Yellowstone are small and
in the winter depend heavily on income from snowmobilers. In
turn, the community of West Yellowstone, Montana, relies on
those businesses and the tax revenue from tourists to provide
public resources. Today's hearing is designed to demonstrate
that protecting the beauty of Yellowstone National Park need
not come at the expense of America's small businesses and rural
communities.
At today's hearing, we have heard from Director Mainella
about the decision making process. In addition, we'll hear from
people who live near the park about the impact that
snowmobiling has on their businesses and communities. We look
forward to your testimony for ideas that you may have on ways
to accomplish the preservation of the park and preservation of
the rural economic base.
The normal standard is to limit your testimony to five
minutes each. When you start approaching five minutes, you'll
notice I get a little bit fidgety. When you start running over
five minutes, you hear the tapping. If you go too far beyond
that, then the tapping turns to a mallet smash. So--before I
get into that, all the testimony that the witnesses have and
any testimony of the audience, written testimony provided does
not exceed two single-spaced pages--from the audience--will be
made part of the permanent record. We'll keep that open for 3
weeks from today.
And we have letters from Senator Thomas and Senator Baucus.
[The information may be found in appendix.]
Chairman Manzullo. Mr. Rehberg, when you give the opening
statements will you introduce the representatives from the
various senatorial and congressional offices? Thank you.
Mr. Rehberg. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and thank
you for coming to Montana on an issue that we feel is very
important to the State of Montana, from whatever side you come
down. And you'll find in this State that natural resources and
some of the conflict that exists within natural resources is
one of the most emotional issues that occurs within our State
and we're continuing trying to find ways to ameliorate the
problems on both sides and trying to find some kind of a common
ground; and so I appreciate you coming out.
This is a first for me, of course, this has been a year of
firsts. I'm sworn in as your new United States Congressman,
representing the entire State of Montana, on January third.
This is my first official congressional hearing, and I thank
you for coming out and doing that. It's a little hard for me as
well, the formality, because we're used to having town hall
meetings in Montana where it's kind of rag tag, and everybody
gets an opportunity--yeah, take your tie off and we'll just
invite everybody to come and sit up here. It was important
enough that I invited the Small Business Committee out to
listen to the concerns within the community. Now you'll notice
that this is not the Environmental and Public Works Committee,
and it is specifically the Small Business Committee.
The thing that happens in government more often than not is
one element or another doesn't feel their government is
listening to them. Sometimes that works for us, sometimes it
works against us. When the government makes the decision we
agree with, we say no more public input; you've studied this
thing to death, let's make the decision and move forward. Well,
the other side says well, that's not fair. That's what's
occurring in this situation.
The small business community and the community of West
Yellowstone felt like the last administration didn't fully hear
their perspective on the economic impacts that were going to
occur to their families. What I've tried to accomplish over the
years as your congressman is to create an opportunity or an
environment for the discussion to have an ability for all sides
to be heard. This is not intended to be a free for all, this is
intended to provide information so that the right decisions can
be made by our National Park Service within the executive
branch. Until such time as we feel like everybody has had their
opportunity in court or their opportunity to provide that
input, then we will continue having meetings like this. So the
Small Business Committee is here today to hear specifically
from people, their perspective on whether there will be an
economic impact on the community. And that's only fair. I think
everybody agrees that that's only fair.
Consensus is always a hard thing to find, but I prefer the
consensus process. I created the consensus council in Montana
for the specific purposes of trying to find common grounds so
people don't divvy in the corners and end up having to hire
attorneys and sue their way back out. I've teamed up with
Governor Mark Racicot, former Governor, now in Washington, DC,
and we've introduced legislation to create the national
consensus council. It's not in place to help us with this
process, but it's a good format to follow.
And if you believe in the holistic approach, you will agree
with our proposal of hearing from all sides, whether it be an
environmental impact statement or an economic impact statement
on the type of impacts that will occur within communities such
as West Yellowstone, who are created merely to service the
public that are coming to access our parks. And if they don't
exist, then either people are going to want additional
construction within their parks by the government,
concessionaires or there will be a problem because there will
not be the opportunities to have the motel rooms necessary or
the facilities necessary to house them when they come to
participate in their national park.
I would like to quickly introduce those members, and I'll
just have them stand up and wave at the audience, who are here
from other congressional offices. We have a representative from
Barbara Cubin's office, the Congresswoman from Wyoming. Would
you stand up. Thank you for being here. We have a
representative--two, actually, from Senator Conrad Burns'
office. Would you both stand up and wave. There's one. And
there's a representative from Max Baucus' office. Is anybody
here from Senator Enzi or Senator Thomas' office? We understand
that they did submit written testimony, and we thank you all
for being involved.
At this time I will introduce the four representatives from
Montana that I have invited to be a part of this panel. They
are my constituents, and first is Jackie Mathews, Greater
Yellowstone Coalition and the Blue Ribbon Flies of West
Yellowstone; Clyde Seely of Yellowstone Tour and Travel. And
Clyde, we thank you in addition for being here, also turning
over your facility to this congressional hearing. That's very
kind of you. Glen Loomis from the Yellowstone Motorsports of
West Yellowstone; and Melissa Buller of Free Heel and Wheel of
West Yellowstone. We thank you for being here. The other two
members of the panel are from the State of Wyoming, at the
request of the Wyoming delegation. Bob Coe, who has not shown
up yet. He's with the Tepee Resort in Cody, and Bob Walker from
the Flagg Ranch Resort from Moran.
Chairman Manzullo. Mr. Walker, we'll look forward to your
testimony. It's a five-minute clock, and I presume you'll
summarize this lengthy statement that you gave me. Thank you.
STATEMENT OF ROBERT WALKER, FLAGG RANCH RESORT
Mr. Walker. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Congressman. My name
is Robert Walker and I'm the CEO, majority owner of
International Leisure Host, a public corporation of about 600
people. International Leisure Host operates Flagg Ranch Resort,
which is located about two miles from the south entrance to
Yellowstone. During the winter we offer cabin rentals, food and
beverage service, gasoline, sales and other merchandise. In
addition, we provide a staging point for the snow coaches and
other snowmobiling operations from the south end of the park
and from Jackson; Our contract is a concession contract with
the National Park Service. The concession contract began in
1989. It terminates in 2009, so we have about seven or eight
years to go yet.
The phase out of snowmobiling, since it's about 90 percent
of our income, will obviously cause us a financial situation
which we will probably close Flagg Ranch in the wintertime. The
financial effects in summary during the balance of our contract
will be a loss of revenue of about ten million dollars. The net
income loss to the corporation for the remainder of the
contract will be about one million eight hundred thousand
dollars based on the last two years of operation.
We employ about 50 people during the wintertime at a gross
salary of about 225 thousand dollars; and obviously, if we
close, both the employment and the compensation would be
eliminated. The present record of decision has an interim phase
in period, which is real significant to us, in that it would
allow about 90 snowmobiles to enter through the south gate of
Yellowstone on a daily basis. Our contract actually authorizes
85 snowmobiles to go into the park daily, and I can't imagine
that we would get the total authorization. So if you prorate
that number, it would give us about ten snowmobiles a day,
which would not be enough for Flagg Ranch to operate during the
interim period.
A little background. In '89, when the contract was signed
with the National Park Service, Flagg Ranch agreed to totally
rebuild Flagg Ranch. Move it from the Snake River area down by
the river, up on a bluff above the river. Since that time,
we've built a new lodge, new cabins, new support facilities at
a cost of about nine million dollars.
Part of the agreement in that contract was that we would
get the future revenues from both winter and summer operations
until 2009. We've spent about 95 percent of the money that
needs to be spent and we've got about 60 percent of the income
so far. So loss of the winter business is going to cause a
serious problem.
Another thing in the record of decision now and in some of
the alternatives in the current EIS is the snow coach
alternative. Since I got involved five years ago with Flagg
Ranch, one of my main efforts has been to try to improve the
snow coaches and try to determine if there was a better way to
see the Park.
My first impression was that the snow coaches we were using
at that time and other people were using were becoming outdated
or they didn't really provide the type of service and the
comfort that I thought was needed to offer the snow coach as a
tour. What I found out in looking at available snow coaches, a
lot of my background is engineering, is the only snow coaches
available at this time is to take standard off the road 15
passenger vans and convert them using over the snow equipment.
There are a couple different conversions, but both of those
conversions, in my opinion, offer a marginal situation, both
for passenger comfort and in very bad weather, from a safety
standpoint.
I went to Oregon and drove a snow coach which is being used
on the Alaska north slope by a company called Tucker Snowcat
for people transport. That vehicle does offer the safety aspect
and they had agreed that they would build a snow coach which
would have the comfort. They brought their snow coach out to
Yellowstone about a year ago and we tried it. That snow coach
did offer a lot of the things that should be offered, but the
big thing it didn't have the capability of is the maximum
speed. The maximum speed was 25 miles per hour. We feel it
needs to be 45 miles an hour. The suspension system was
definitely marginal.
Chairman Manzullo. Bob, we're right at five minutes.
Mr. Walker. Let me just summarize very quickly then. My
opinion on the snow coach option is if it's going to be used,
if needs to be phased in over six or seven years at a very slow
rate so we can see what the economic impact is going to be.
Because the surveys we've done, we're estimating that the
visitation to the parks will drop to 30 percent with snow coach
only use. Thank you.
Chairman Manzullo. Thank you.
[Mr. Walker's statement may be found in appendix.]
Chairman Manzullo. Our next witness will be Jackie Mathews
from the Greater--hang on a second. Let me take Clyde Seely, if
that's okay with you. Clyde.
STATEMENT OF CLYDE SEELY, YELLOWSTONE TOUR & TRAVEL
Mr. Seely. Chairman Manzullo and Congressman Rehberg, my
name is Clyde Seely. I'm honored and pleased to come before you
today. I've been in the rental snowmobile business in West
Yellowstone for about 31 years. I've been in the snow coach
business now for about eight years. I believe I have lived the
American dream. I first came to West Yellowstone at 19 when I
worked as a laundry boy. I have devoted my adult life helping
to develop the community and our affiliated businesses that I
have listed on our cover sheet. I am proud of our little town.
We have worked hard to be a good partner with Yellowstone by
providing community services to millions of visitors and park
staff. We have been severely impacted with the September 11th
attack on our country. We will survive that. We cannot survive
the economic fallout of the impending snowmobile ban. Let us
not create an economic ground zero in West Yellowstone.
Ironically, this is the time when Director Mainella and
Secretary Norton are promoting visiting our national parks.
They have said that the parks belong to the people and can be
used for renewal and for the healing of the soul. Let's not
shut the people out.
I currently employ over 220 people, many with families. Our
payroll is in excess of two point five million dollars. The
money these employees make turns over many times in our
community. The ban on snowmobiles in Yellowstone will cause
great economic harm to our community and those who work and
live here.
At Three Bear Lodge, 52 percent of our total annual revenue
comes from three winter months. We believe that a ban on
snowmobiles would cut our revenues by 60 to 70 percent. We
currently operate 260 rental snowmobiles. We also operate a
fleet of snow coaches. While we market equally to snow coach
and snowmobile clientele, only about five percent of our
customers use the snow coach. Mr. Chairman, Congressman
Rehberg, I have some slides. With your permission, I'd like to
show these that graphically point out the effects that rely too
heavily using snow coaches to replace snowmobiles. I see I'm
right in the limelight. I'm going to move.
This slide shows the comparison of snowmobile and snow
coach visitors through the west gate for five different years.
The blue indicates snowmobile, the red snow coach. As you can
see, West Yellowstone would be financially devastated if the
snowmobile ban goes into effect. West Yellowstone will be
financially devastated if a 330 snowmobile per day is imposed,
especially if the closing day for snowmobiles is Friday after
President's holiday, as has been proposed. The next few slides
show the effect of such a 330 snowmobile CAP day. This is mild,
however, compared to a total snowmobile ban.
Let's quickly scan through four years. These graphs
represent the daily numbers of snowmobiles that pass through
the west gate. The black box with the elongated X shows the
effect that would have been for the past few years if only 330
snowmobiles would have been allowed in the west entrance and
closed after the President's holiday, as has been proposed. All
lines outside the box represent actual snowmobilers that would
have been excluded from the park. This would equate to an
economic loss between seven and eight and a half million
dollars each year from 1995 to 2001, and I think that's
conservative.
While we do not have a problem with making reasonable
cutbacks on numbers of snowmobiles, we know that cutting back
numbers of visitors will not only deny their rights to enjoy
the park but also our economic well being. We have been told
that new concept snow coaches would be in place to fill the
void left by the snowmobile ban.
We, along with the public have been led down a primrose
path right into a box canyon. These new snow coaches have never
been developed. What will be the public use when the
snowmobiles are gone? Who will pay the payrolls, who will make
the bank payments? The current makeshift snow coaches that we
use will fail dismally in satisfying the public's needs. And
there are many reasons for that.
While new snow coach technology has not arrived, new
snowmobile technology is quantum leaps ahead. The new four
stroke snowmobile was massed produced this year. They're really
clean and quiet. As I indicated, one of the fallacies with the
snowmobile ban is the assumption that concept snow coaches
would be on the snow in time to replace the snowmobile. Nothing
could be further from the truth. New snow coaches have not been
built. They have not been funded. It will be years before snow
coaches can be developed and the necessary--marketing necessary
completed.
The proposed one or two year transition period will do
nothing but bring economic harm to Yellowstone--West
Yellowstone. Our community will not be pacified and lulled into
a false sense of security that it will be okay. This proposed
ban is not okay. It will be financially devastating to our
community. Anyone who says otherwise does not have to meet
payrolls and bank payments.
My final plea is that we all work together to protect the
park, to protect the public's choice of access and to protect
the economic well being of Yellowstone's most dedicated
partner, West Yellowstone. Together we can make it all happen.
Together, we can do it right. And thank you so much for caring
enough to come out here. Thanks for providing this forum for
listening to our concerns. And I have included with my written
testimony some attachments.
Chairman Manzullo. Those attachments will also be made part
of the record.
[Mr. Seely's statement may be found in appendix.]
Chairman Manzullo. Illinois, the part I come from has had
two inches of snow so far. And when my wife and I drove out
here just to see the snow, we were like children, to see the
beauty of the State.
Our next witness is Melissa Bueller----
Ms. Buller. Buller.
Chairman Manzullo. Buller, I'm sorry. With the Free Heel
and Wheel. I imagine you'll tell us what the name of that
organization is; here in West Yellowstone, Montana. We look
forward to your testimony.
STATEMENT OF MELISSA BULLER, FREE HEEL AND WHEEL
Ms. Buller. Thank you for the opportunity to testify
before----
Chairman Manzullo. Could we have the lights come up now,
please and bring your mic up closer.
Ms. Buller. Thank you. My name is Melissa Buller. I am co-
owner of a bicycle and cross country ski store in West
Yellowstone. Our store, Free Heel and Wheel has been in
business for over five and a half years. We rent and sell
bicycles and cross country skis. We specialize in customer
service which involves educating visitors on non-motorized
activities available in our area. These non-motorized
activities include biking, hiking, backpacking, trail running,
snowshoeing, back country skiing and cross country skiing.
Thanks to a tremendous local support and a growing base of
regional customers, we have been able to sustain our business
in the snowmobile capital of the world.
I believe a change regarding snowmobiling in Yellowstone
National Park must occur. In our business we interact daily
with people who are interested in exploring Yellowstone in a
nonmotorized fashion. Currently in--a level of usage by
inefficient snowmobiles has turned Yellowstone into a
snowmobile park. The roads are utilized by hundreds of machines
daily, thousands on holidays. These provide--these do not
provide a quality experience for all visitors nor are they
inviting for potential visitors. Often tourists visiting in
November to ski will say they will not visit West Yellowstone
or the park after Christmas because of high numbers of
snowmobiles. Snow coach travelers endure extremely bumpy roads,
and despite incredible grooming efforts, the park cannot keep
the trails smooth with large numbers of snowmobiles.
I am not in favor of a snowmobile ban in Yellowstone.
Seeing the park on a snowmobile is a tradition for many people.
I do not feel this right needs to be taken away completely. I
feel that a limited number of clean machines in Yellowstone
would allow for independent travel along with increased snow
coach and non-motorized use. Diversifying the park's winter
access will attract a broader market. This broader market could
potentially increase visitation with less environmental impact.
My decision to open a business in West Yellowstone was not
strictly a business decision. Many who live in this area do so
because of the recreational opportunities available right out
our back door. There are locals and visitors who feel that as
skiers, we are shut out of Yellowstone and other public lands
in the winter because of large numbers of snowmobilers.
Certainly, many trails could be used by skiers; however, with
snowmobiles traveling at high speeds, it's simply not safe. The
park could consider opening Yellowstone to skiers and
snowshoers certain days of the month.
People dream of skateskiing to Old Faithful on a clear day.
During periods of low snow, like December and March, the park
could be open for skiers and snowshoers only. There is often
not enough snow, for over snow vehicles, yet there are still
ample opportunities to enjoy the park on skis. An overwhelming
response to such an opportunity could prove that people will
choose to see Yellowstone on their own power. This could
lengthen busy seasons with the park and gateway communities
with little or no impact on wildlife or resources.
The Park Service could also consider shuttle services in
order to provide more economic alternative for non-motorized
users in Yellowstone. Skiers also enjoy traveling
independently. Presently, going to Old Faithful to ski for the
day on your own is not an option unless you spend 80 to 100
dollars to rent a snowmobile. There are also wonderful guided
snow coach ski tours yet not all visitors need or can afford a
guided trip.
In my opinion the Park Service does not have the
responsibility to maintain the economic vitality of those
businesses who choose to utilize its resources. The Park
Service must protect the resources and provide access in such a
way that is not mutually exclusive or detrimental to the
environment. The Park Service must also consider the
overwhelming public support for reducing the air and noise
pollution in Yellowstone. The sooner a decision is made, we can
move toward. West Yellowstone has survived many economic
setbacks including wildfires, government furloughs and weather.
The changes that will occur in Yellowstone will be healthier
for the park and West Yellowstone and the community can thrive
as the winter recreation capital of the world. Thank you.
[Ms. Buller's statement may be found in appendix.]
Chairman Manzullo. Melissa, you ever testified before a
congressional Committee before?
Ms. Buller. No, sir.
Chairman Manzullo. It wasn't as bad as you thought it was.
Ms. Buller. No, sir.
Chairman Manzullo. Thank you.
Our next witness is Jackie Mathews who's with the Greater
Yellowstone Coalition. Sorry about the mix up earlier, Jackie.
We look forward to your testimony.
STATEMENT OF JACKIE MATHEWS, GREATER YELLOWSTONE COALITION
Ms. Mathews. Hello. My name is Jackie Mathews and I want to
say----
Chairman Manzullo. You have a very soft voice so you have
to be very close to the mic.
Ms. Mathews. I want to thank you for listening to my
testimony today. I have lived in West Yellowstone----
Chairman Manzullo. They still can't hear you.
Ms. Mathews. Thank you. My name is Jackie Mathews. Thank
you for listening to my testimony. I've lived in West
Yellowstone for 23 years. My husband Craig and I started Blue
Ribbon Flies, a fly fishing retail and guiding business 22
years ago. We have customers who come from all over the world
to fish here. They are drawn because of the park and the
unparalleled experience of our first national park and the
surrounding areas.
We believe, as business owners benefiting from Yellowstone,
we owe the park in return. Our business donates one percent of
its gross sales to the park through the Yellowstone Park
Foundation. Craig and I are on the board of the Yellowstone
Park Foundation and the Greater Yellowstone Coalition. We feel
we owe the park the best protection that can be given and are
committed to act as unselfish stewards of Yellowstone.
When the park made the decision to phase out snowmobiles,
it was based on years of science, a foundation of law and
extensive public input. The EPA said that the Park Service and
environmental impact statement was among the most thorough and
substantial science based that they had seen supporting the
NEPA document. That law of science and public opinion that form
the park's decision to restore pure air, peace and quiet to
Yellowstone could not be more clear.
In the most recent round of public comment, 82 percent of
the thousands of citizens who took time to express their
opinions told the Park Service to uphold the original decision
to phase out snowmobiles. Scientists from around the country
told Secretary of the Interior Gail Norton that continued
snowmobile use harms the park's wildlife and is in violation of
the law. Americans treasure Yellowstone and we who are
privileged to live at its doorsteps bear the heaviest
responsibility for its protection. Our future and the future of
the town depends on the park.
I deeply care about my community and have sadly watched as
our winter economy has turn into the company store single
business economy, leaving out the smaller businesses as the
years go past. The snowmobile ban is the best thing for West
Yellowstone and Yellowstone Park. By protecting Yellowstone, it
will open the doors for newer winter business growth in town.
Snowmobiling will always be an important segment of our
winter economy, but no longer can it be acceptable in
Yellowstone. A snow coach system into the park will open up all
kinds of opportunities for local businesses. They can promote
Yellowstone to everyone, not just snowmobilers. Many visitors
to Yellowstone will welcome such an opportunity. Skiers,
families, older people, local and regional visitors who avoid
intensive snowmobile areas. The opportunities are limitless to
attract new visitor groups.
We don't need more debate or controversy. This is pulling
our town apart. We need help with the job at hand, implementing
a snow coach system to protect Yellowstone and to provide the
highest quality experience to the park's visitors and to make
sure our local economy gets the help it needs to weather the
transition and flourish with increased diversity.
Many business persons and residents of our town support the
snowmobile phase out in Yellowstone. Two years ago, over 150
people, about one third of the voting population signed a
petition. A call for a healthy economy and a healthy park,
supporting the park's decision and asking Congress to go
forward with the phase out. Numerous letters from townspeople
have been sent to Congress urging support of the snowmobile
phase out.
The message is clear. Please protect Yellowstone. Our
community and our livelihoods will thrive and we will not fall
into economic ruin. The House Small Business Committee is in a
unique position to assist our town as we make this overdue and
necessary transition. The goal must be made as easy as possible
on our local business people. This can be accomplished by
providing low interest loans and assistance to new and expanded
snow coach operations.
The key to our town's success obviously will be a continued
influx of winter tourists. Yellowstone Park's a tremendous
draw, which will continue to serve us as long as we protect it.
Remember, no one is closing the gates. Marketing, advertising,
public education similar to that undertaken following the 1988
fires will help us minimize any dip in visitation.
Last March, because of a low snow pack, the roads to
Yellowstone were closed early and the winter visitor could only
enter the park in buses. The buses were packed. The city sales
tax collections for that month jumped 40 percent. The people
will come. We just need to be ready for them.
In summary, I ask the committee to support a sustainable
economy for West Yellowstone and please don't compromise
Yellowstone. It's the only one we have. Thank you.
Chairman Manzullo. Thank you very much.
Ms. Mathews. I have some attachments.
Chairman Manzullo. Yes. They will be made part of the
record.
[Ms. Mathews' statement may be found in appendix.]
Chairman Manzullo. And this is your first time before a
congressional Committee?
Ms. Mathews. Yes.
Chairman Manzullo. You did very well. Thank you.
Our next witness will be Glen Loomis because Bob Coe is not
here.
STATEMENT OF GLEN LOOMIS, YELLOWSTONE MOTORSPORTS
Mr. Loomis. I do have an overhead that I'd like to show in
a minute, if somebody could turn that on for me. There she
comes.
Chairman Manzullo. Glen, you might want to use that
portable mic. It appears to be hotter.
Mr. Loomis. My name is Glen Loomis. I live in West
Yellowstone, part of a family business. We have snowmobile
rentals, snow coach rentals and motels. My father visited
Yellowstone in 1914 in a covered wagon. Took them 32 days to
see Yellowstone. Now I didn't see that option being evaluated.
Maybe they should go back and add that as an alternative. It
didn't work real well in the winter, however.
I think that the main thing we have to consider is that
access is really what we're talking about; winter as well as
summer. How do we access Yellowstone? So let me give you a
couple of issues that I'd like to touch on.
I've been on the town council going on the 11th year here
in West Yellowstone. I served as mayor for five; presently the
deputy mayor. Basically it seems to me what happens in
Yellowstone happens to the businesses in West Yellowstone and
happens to our town. We have a very cyclic response to
visitation. So I'd like to show this overhead. It shows the
resort tax collections for the past few years.
As you can see, we have a very cyclic impact. The summer is
very heavy visitation, the Fall is almost nothing. We have a
blip in the winter. The spring again is almost nothing. And yet
businesses such as mine have to make monthly payments. And so
you have to have some stability to make monthly payments and to
make the payroll.
Ms. Mathews referred to the blip last year in March, so let
me give you a thought on that. We do need diversity. We had a
special snow shoot that was invited to town and they came. We
had a special ski race. But the real problem is collection of
taxes, resort taxes that are already delinquent. We do get some
special payments on delinquent taxes. As of yesterday, the town
is experiencing right now around 50,000 dollars in delinquent
resort tax payments. Hopefully they'll come in. And I have to
tell you, I don't care what month they come in, they need to be
paid. We already are stressed.
I'd like to also point out that there's a number of things
that have been discussed about technology. Things have changed.
There is clean, quiet technology for snowmobiles. There are
snow coaches. Our business, our family business uses this
particular piece as an advertising piece. [Copy of the brochure
may be found in the appendix.]
We made 180,000, and the first page talks about snowmobile
tours and packages available.
The second page equally talks about snow coach tours. Year
to date, our snow coach reservations equal four point six eight
percent of our reservations. Why is there apprehension in my
business? If there were 50 percent booking snow coaches and 50
percent booking snowmobiles, the thought that there could be an
easy transition would not make me apprehensive. But when you're
at four point six eight percent, where are they coming from and
how are you going to change? That's of concern to me. I'd like
to summarize a couple of thoughts.
We do need to protect Yellowstone. No question about it. I
want it protected as much as anybody does. There are limits, so
there need to be some adjustments in terms of winter use. I
don't deny that. But the new technology of clean, quiet
snowmobiles do not impact the land, the air or the water
because they travel on the same roads as the cars do in the
summertime. About 50,000 winter visitors from West Yellowstone.
Almost three million for the year. Seems to me that we've got
things way out of perspective in terms of what's important.
It is true, the park does not exist for the gateway
communities. But think about it, the gateway communities do
exist for the park. They provide the necessary support and the
development so the park does not have to provide it inside
their boundaries. So if we protect historical use--historical
visitation--businesses such as mine may be able to succeed. But
if we jump off with an immediate ban--how do we make up the
four point six eight percent snow coach riders that we have now
and continue to make our monthly payments while meeting the
payroll. Animal impacts can be mitigated. The tests that they
have already talked about, the pilot studies, show that.
Finally I'd just like to say this one thing. My major
concern is to assure summer and winter access for my
grandchildren and my grandchildren's children in an
environmentally friendly atmosphere. And I'm tired of certain
groups crying ``the sky is falling'' and our government rushing
to eliminate access to our public lands. Thank you.
[Applause.]
[Mr. Loomis' statement may be found in appendix.]
Chairman Manzullo. I've never had an audience applaud
whenever a witness has testified.
Mr. Rehberg. Just when you're introduced they're allowed.
Chairman Manzullo. No, that doesn't happen either.
Congressman Rehberg, why don't you go ahead. First of all, I
want to thank you for the quality of the testimony. It's all
local. You're all local residents. You all feel very strong
about this and I appreciate this.
Mr. Rehberg. Thank you. I'd like to--when--Glen, when you
were talking, you pointed something out to me that I hadn't
thought about with the makeup of the panel. I wanted to--I want
to address real briefly. And that is Glen, Clyde and Bob,
you're all involved in the housing--besides the rental of the
snowmobiles, the housing arena or the provision of an
opportunity for people once they get here to stay here. So I'll
ask Melissa and Jackie, do you have any involvement in the
housing within West Yellowstone?
Ms. Buller. We don't own hotels.
Mr. Rehberg. You don't own hotels or bed and breakfasts or
anything like that. So you're pure service providers and
they're service providers in kind of a basic industry.
Do you worry, Jackie and Melissa, that if they can't meet
their payroll--these are the hard, cruel realities of making
the payments on the equipment, the staff, the people that clean
the rooms, the restaurant located within those, that if they
don't or can't stay in business because they can't meet their
payroll because they've diversified their income within their
own business, snowmobiles, snowshoes, bicycles, snow machines
and motel rooms, that your service provision would be
financially impacted within the community. They got to have a
place to stay. I guess----
Ms. Mathews. Are you asking if we would be--our service
business would be impacted?
Mr. Rehberg. Are you worried that your service provision,
your business is based upon providing service. If they go out
of business and you people don't have a place to stay, what are
you going to do with the people that come to rent your bikes or
cross country skis?
Ms. Buller. Is--um, one thing I'd like to point out, if you
look at----
Chairman Manzullo. Just a second. I really would appreciate
if the audience would be quiet. This is a congressional
hearing. We don't allow participation of that nature on the
floor--I'm sorry, we do on the floor, but not in the gallery
and also in the other Committee rooms. I would just appreciate
if you could remain silent while the witness is testifying.
This is very difficult for them to do. Thank you. Melissa,
please.
Ms. Buller. I know that neither of us want to see any of
our neighbors go out of business. But what I'd like to go out--
if you look at Glen's sales tax figures for the town and add up
December, January and February and March, that accounts for
about a quarter of our annual collections in revenue. So I
believe, being the good businessmen that these men are, to make
up for that--if we lose 90 percent of our winter business,
they're going to lose approximately 20 percent of their annual
income. I know the wildfires of '88 probably had that
significant of an economic impact and they managed to survive
and grow and operate more businesses.
And I also know that visitors who do use other means of
transportation will stay in this town. Possibly more visitors,
if we can have some control over the snowmobile use in this
community. We talked to people on a daily basis who say they
will not stay in West Yellowstone because of the noise and the
air. So we feel that if you can balance the usage--we're not
asking to eliminate snowmobiles altogether. We think it's an
important part of the package. But if we can provide more of a
balance, I think the community will only grow.
Ms. Mathews. I think that's one of the things that I was
asking you for, too. As the Small Business Committee, to help
them with loans and so forth to get them through the phase out
time period, where they have the opportunity to diversify their
own winter businesses where they won't be left high and dry
either.
Chairman Manzullo. Let me comment on that. Before a loan is
given, there has to be a business plan. And part of a business
plan, you have to show that there's a demand for the service;
that there's a reasonable opportunity to pay back the loan. And
the testimony that I've heard so far is that there's very
little demand for the snow coaches. So the government would
just not come in and say, we're going to help you with the
transition when so far, there's nothing--no testimony deduced
as to what it would be transitioning to.
Ms. Mathews. I think you need to take a look at our
community. Our community right now is very, very one-sided
snowmobile only. By opening it up, cleaning it up and turning
it into a--let's say more user-friendly community during the
winter months, I think you would find that the numbers of
people that are drawn to this town to go into the park would
probably quadruple to what we are doing right now.
The game is to get us from where we're at now to that point
and help the existing businesses get through this time period.
We have a huge potential, which is--I mean, which we have a
huge draw, which is Yellowstone. The biggest problem we have in
there right now is the situation. Most people don't want to go
into the park when the park is overrun with snowmobiles that
are loud and noisy and obnoxious. Change the park situation,
change the town a little bit and we can all be a lot better off
than what we're at right now.
Mr. Rehberg. I came to the conclusion a long time ago that
government doesn't create jobs. People do. But what government
does is often times create a less than favorable environment
for jobs to be created. And if you want to diversify your
income, you have to have an opportunity for people not to be
over regulated and not to be overtaxed; and there is always
that balance. Diversification of our economy is very important
but what we have to do is recognize that our job is not to pick
winners and losers, the snowmobile industry over the cross
country ski industry. What we have to do is try to create an
environment so that they can all co-exist. And I guess my
question to you is, Jackie, when your clientele who are not
necessarily--well, they might be snowmobilers, when they come
to this community to rent your cross country skis--that's your
business, I'm sorry. Do they----
Chairman Manzullo. Fishing.
Mr. Rehberg. Oh, you're the fisher person. Do they also
rent snowmobiles while they're here or are they cross country
skiing specific?
Ms. Buller. We have both users. We have some people that
will rent both snowmobiles and skis. And a lot of our customers
are strictly skiers or snowshoers.
Mr. Rehberg. Have you then worked with the Forest Service
and National Park Service to try to create dual opportunities?
It seems to me like within the National Park Service there are
the roads and the snowmobiles are limited to the roads. But
there's a lot of extra park out there that is not roaded, not
groomed for snowmobiles that would provide a wonderful, quiet
opportunity for those that want to cross country ski to do
that. Have you made those kinds of presentations and
recommendations?
Ms. Buller. Well, we would like that but the problem there
is no access to those areas currently. We have one trail system
on the edge of town and then we have one small trail that goes
into Yellowstone from the edge of town. The other ski areas are
at Old Faithful and Mammoth. And to get to those areas there's
currently no inexpensive access. You are required to rent a
snowmobile or take a snow coach tour. So there is no private
access for a skier to just simply go into the park and ski,
unless there they're skiing just on the edge of town.
That's what we're asking for. We're asking for a balance.
You can see, there's probably a dozen trails that leave town
and in the park for snowmobiles, and we have two very small
areas. And that's mainly what we're asking for is to diversify
and provide experience for both users.
Mr. Rehberg. I'd like to ask the National Park Service then
two follow up questions based upon that. Can that be
considered, additional off site areas as an alternative, when
you're talking about the number of snow machines or motors
within the park. Can it have a subset A, creating an
opportunity for those that want a quiet enjoyment to have
groomed trails that don't exist today?
Ms. Buller. We're not necessarily for the trails. We're
asking for access to the trails.
Mr. Rehberg. Being someone who cross countries skis, I
prefer the groomed trails.
Chairman Manzullo. Could you please state your full name
and spell the last name?
Mr. Sacklin. I'm John Sacklin. S-A-C-K-L-I-N. I'm the chief
of planning and compliance at Yellowstone National Park. In
answer to your question, Congressman Rehberg, during our
environmental impact statement process where we look at
planning for winter activities in Yellowstone National Park,
we've looked at the whole wide range of winter uses be it
snowmobiling, access via snow coach, snowshoeing or cross
country skiing. And in our alternatives we have looked at a
wide range of ways to attempt to accommodate all users. In the
new supplemental environmental impact statement, a great deal
of the focus of that is on snowmobiles and clean, quiet
technology. But in our range of alternatives, we have looked at
those non-motorized uses.
I should note, I think most people from the--from this area
are aware of it. West Yellowstone, Montana, sitting on the west
side of Yellowstone National Park also sits in an area of
important winter wildlife habitat. I think we all recognize
that winter users, be they non-motorized or motorized, can have
an impact, an adverse impact on wintering wildlife. So as you
think about the possible addition of additional trails,
particularly in the vicinity of West Yellowstone, coming into
Yellowstone National park, we need to look at other issues such
as winter wildlife.
Mr. Rehberg. One additional question then, Mr. Chairman and
for--in relation to someone Ms. Mathews brought up and the
statement was made that it's not the National Parks Service's
charge to look at the economic impact of the ultimate rule, am
I stating that correctly? That was your intimation, that their
job is to look at--again, I'm sorry, Melissa. There you go. Is
that a fair characterization of your statement? That they
should be looking at the environment, not the economics?
Ms. Buller. [Nodding.].
Mr. Rehberg. I guess I'd have to ask a question, because I
don't know----
Chairman Manzullo. The Regulatory Flexibility Act mandates
that whenever there's a change like this, that there must be a
study done on--for economic impact.
Ms. Buller. I think that's fair, but you're looking at the
impact on one specific user.
Chairman Manzullo. Say it again, Melissa.
Ms. Buller. Your concern is the impact on one specific
business.
Mr. Rehberg. I hope not.
Chairman Manzullo. That's all small business. That includes
school districts. They get a considerable amount of money from
recreation.
Ms. Buller. I'm not saying that a partnership is not a good
idea, you know, I definitely think we need to look at the
economic impacts, but there are more economic impacts than the
snowmobile use. We can spread the use out.
Chairman Manzullo. Let me just throw this out. There are
some groups that want to eliminate mountain bikes. What----
Ms. Buller. It's already eliminated from the park.
Chairman Manzullo. Where do your people----
Ms. Buller. On the Forest Service land.
Chairman Manzullo. Forest Service. There are some groups
that want to eliminate mountain biking from the Forest Service.
Ms. Buller. As well as snowmobiling.
Chairman Manzullo. What would that do to your industry if
they were eliminated?
Ms. Buller. Renting of bicycles is actually a pretty small
part of our business, so I would say that would definitely
decrease our rental usage in the summer months. But we actually
do a significant amount of our rental business occurs when the
park is closed. People have the ability to bicycle in the park
with no cars. And that's actually, if you look at our rental
figures, we do the highest rental of our bicycles in April,
when the park is actually closed.
Chairman Manzullo. The--there's an article--Melissa, is
this your publication, The Greater Yellowstone Report.
Ms. Mathews. I'm Jackie.
Chairman Manzullo. Oh, Jackie, I'm sorry. Jackie, this is
your publication?
Ms. Mathews. It's not--I sit on the--I'm a board of
director on the Greater Yellowstone Coalition.
Chairman Manzullo. I was reading this yesterday. It quotes
an editorial from the Casper Star Tribune on November first. Do
not overturn the snowmobile decision. You didn't see this?
Ms. Mathews. Is that a Greater Yellowstone Coalition
report?
Chairman Manzullo. Yes. The Greater Yellowstone Report from
the Greater Yellowstone Organization.
Ms. Mathews. I don't believe----
Chairman Manzullo. The Greater Yellowstone Coalition.
That's not your group?
Ms. Mathews. Yes, it is.
Chairman Manzullo. That is your group. It quotes an
editorial here. And let me read to you a couple of lines and
ask each of the people here on the panel to comment on it. It
said, while the gateway communities may feel a temporary impact
from a ban on snowmobiles in these parks, the ban will better
serve the communities by protecting a resource that will
attract tourists as long as there exists a love of nature.
The Federal Government however also must recognize that a
number of businesses around Yellowstone develop their winter
operations on the basis of the past winter use policy. The
Interior Department, Forest Service State economic development
agencies in Wyoming, Montana and Idaho, and the private sector
should implement programs that will help these businesses to
make the transition from snowmobile inside the park to other
services.
The problem is it didn't say what other services. I'd like
to ask each of the people here on the panel to fill in that
blank with what these other services that would be that would
pick up the impact from banning snowmobiling. Clyde, let me
start with you and whoever wants to comment.
Mr. Seely. We are certainly supportive of diversity of
activities here. We do not oppose reduction of snowmobile
numbers as long as the snow coach, the new concept snow coach
is in place and operating to maintain the historic numbers of
visitors to our area, especially to our town. Because that is
where we derive our economic base. We cannot wait. We do not
have the staying power to think about all these grandiose ideas
and maybe possible alternatives that just might be able to be
developed. And in the meantime, take--make our bank payments,
make our payrolls every two weeks and maybe in two to five to
ten years, there might be some additional opportunity to fill
up the--fill in the void. We can't wait that long. Neither can
our community.
If there's going to be some alternative, we need to work
for it concurrently with what we have going. The snowmobiles,
given that reduction in numbers is possible, increased snow
coaches, we are--Melissa and I are on the bicycle committee
that she talked about, together. We're working to increase
visitation in the shoulder seasons. But I don't know how you're
going--you can't just all of a sudden shut the gate and open
another gate and maintain the historic levels of visitation
here without taking a long time to do it; and in the meantime,
we're going to suffer economically.
Chairman Manzullo. Anybody else want to comment on the
editorial? Bob.
Mr. Walker. Mr. Chairman, when I first got involved in
Flagg Ranch five years ago, one of the things we tried to do
was to increase the number of people cross country skiing in
the area. The Park Service has designated trails away from the
snowmobile trails so you can ski in the park and in the totally
isolated area. In fact, one of the trails goes by some hot
springs that people hike into quite often as well as cross
country ski.
We advertised on radio and we promoted it through our
brochures. We hired a person to do guided cross country skiing
tours into those areas with zero success. Those trails today
are used by less than five people per day. They go back into
that area. I don't believe from our standpoint we have any
chance of developing a market that is going to help us out
financially. Thank you.
Chairman Manzullo. Glen.
Mr. Loomis. I've been thinking about covered wagon tours in
the summer, maybe. But whatever we do, it really doesn't
matter. If they don't come to visit in Yellowstone on a
historical basis, many of the small businesses are at risk. The
government actions are real and we just need to continually
work out a way that will assure that the public can access the
park in the summer as well as the winter. And I don't care if
they come for a snow coach ride or a snowmobile ride or to go
cross country skiing or whatever. But at this point that hasn't
happened and snowmobile use has expanded. Snow coach traffic
has only expanded a minimal amount.
Ms. Mathews. I think the one thing that the Committee
doesn't realize is the amount of trails--snowmobile groomed
trails out of the park. In--you have in Basin alone, I believe
there's a hundred miles of groomed trails where people can come
to the park and continue--they can go into the park in a snow
coach and they can continue to snowmobile out of the park.
Nobody's taking any of that away from them. If you read most of
the responses from people that come to West Yellowstone to
snowmobile, the bulk of the tours would prefer to snowmobile
out of the park. It's better. The trails are better. The
snowmobiling itself better. They don't really have as much fun
in the park as they do out of it.
The other thing too is the Committee is in a unique
situation right now where--to help design or help fund the
design of the snow coaches and get that off the ground and
moving quickly so that there will be a fleet available in the
real near future.
Mr. Rehberg. I don't disagree that there are different
kinds of usage within the snowmobile hobby, but people can
snowmobile anywhere in Montana. I think that the park is the
draw. I guess I kind of liken it to riding the monorail at
Disneyland. Disneyland is out there and if all you could do is
ride the monorail, you'd never get an opportunity to see the
rides or see the concessions. And so I guess my question then
to you, Bob is--and maybe I missed your point and it was a
question I was going to ask anyhow so maybe you can restate it
in a different way. You attempted to provide free snow coach
access for cross country skiers to remote locations and they
did not fly--or were you going to charge them for that service?
Mr. Walker. Mr. Chairman, Congressman. No, the location of
Flagg is the end where you can go with a wheeled vehicle. So
when you're in our parking lot you're less than two or three
hundred feet from the ski trails or snowshoe trails. There was
no reason to provide transportation. It's available right
there. And those trails go back into the forest land away from
the snowmobile trails.
Mr. Rehberg. If your point was to try and find the
compromise with those that want to eliminate snowmobiles from
the national park, would it be a reasonable compromise to
perhaps provide a snow coach opportunity for those that want to
cross country ski, but to be in where the action is, getting
off the monorail at Disneyland and see some of the geysers and
such that they wouldn't have the ability to walk all day long
to get to or take more than one day to get to. Would you be
willing to consider providing snow coach accessibility for
those cross country skiers?
Mr. Walker. Mr. Chairman, Congressman, if there is a market
there, we would be doing it. And right now, we take one or two
snow coaches per day into the Old Faithful area. There's less
than one percent of those people that go to Yellowstone that
take skis with them. We do provide that service at an
additional cost. If there was a market that would help us
financially, we definitely would provide transportation for
cross country skiing and we do now if there is a request.
Mr. Rehberg. Could I ask Clyde the same question?
Mr. Seely. I'm not sure I got your question correct. We of
course are willing to and would be anxious to provide snow
coach or snowmobile rentals to cross country skiers to get them
into the park. We currently do that. Did I miss your question?
Mr. Rehberg. Well, I was looking for--what we're trying to
do, it seems, in the debate is trying to lessen the number of
motors or at least control the number of motors at the current
level. And if you do that, there's going to be an additional
need or--because what's going to happen is over the course of
the next ten, 20, 30 years, more people are going to want to
access Yellowstone park than are right now. That's just a fact
of life.
The chairman was telling me of a situation in his home
State within the Forest Service, where now, because of the
numbers of people accessing the Forest Service, they've banned
horses. Well, we're not there yet in daily usage, but a day
will come where people need an area to recreate. So if we're
looking at alternatives for the National Park Service within
their rule, to try and lessen the controversy of placing the
caps on the snow machines themselves, if one of the ways was to
provide snow coaches paid for by somebody; you own them,
National Park Service owns them, somebody owns them, to load
people that want a quiet cross country opportunity to get to
remote sites, would that be something that ought to be included
in the alternative?
Mr. Seely. Sure. But it comes back, Congressman, it comes
back to the point that several of us have been trying to make.
That is in the future. That is not this next winter. And we
cannot survive until those kinds of changes come about. So--and
the point is that we can take these same numbers of
snowmobilers and they can recreate or snowmobile outside of
Yellowstone in the wonderful snowmobiling country we have in
the forest is absurd because of the numbers of people that
coming into Yellowstone. Yellowstone is the initial draw. And
then while they're here, they go to Yellowstone, then they go
outside of the park. If all of them were to go outside of the
park, it would create such an overload on the trails that are
existing in the Forest Service, that that would cease to become
an enjoyable experience and we'd begin a death spiral there.
Mr. Rehberg. Could I refer to one of your slides and the
numbers were over 50,000 visitors. I didn't see the number of
days that that included. I couldn't read it quick enough and
divide the number. How many people per day are we talking about
on average that access the park on snowmobiles? I don't think I
need the slide. He probably knows the number off the top of his
head. We were looking at the various alternatives in the prior
impact statement and it talked about 330 and 700 and such. How
do those numbers correlated to--on average, daily use to the
slides you put up?
Mr. Seely. I'm not sure the average daily use. I would
suspect that would be around six or 700 average. But you can't
just flatten everything off and have an average all the way
through. The peaks and the valleys are real and you have to
have the peaks in order to get to the average. And you take the
peaks off and the average suddenly becomes way lower. And so
that is a great concern. You can see there the--if those peaks
were all flattened out and put into the valleys, then I presume
that looks like maybe just looking from here, looks like 650 or
700 people--machines.
Mr. Rehberg. So the impact statement that was considered in
the prior rule that the Bush administrations put on hold for
consideration did in fact place the cap, didn't take into
account the peaks and valleys and ultimately there would
logically be an economic impact on the community.
Mr. Seely. Exactly. The initial--the situation we're
currently under is a ban that is in--that is coming up. And
with that, you can see what the economic impact would be. One
of the alternatives is a 330 per day cap and ending with
snowmobiles after Washington's--the Friday after Washington's
birthday. There's the elongated box. Everything outside of the
box, as I said earlier, would go away if that alternative is
accepted. We can't live with that.
Mr. Rehberg. Being a businessman, I understand the concept
of supply and demand. If you decrease supply and demand
continues to increase, there's going to be a rub. If they
limited it to 330, how will those permits, those daily usage
permits not just be distributed among you, but will there be a
charge for them and will it in fact then cause an expense, an
additional expense to the 330 people to access it? How is that
decided within that----
Mr. Seely. Mr. Congressman, I think that's going to have to
be decided by the planning team. We would like to have some
input in that, but they would be the ones who would ultimately
make that decision. Not only do the rental operators need to
have access with their customers into the park, but also the
people that come on their private snowmobiles. And it would be
a very complicated thing to implement any kind of a reduction
to that extent.
Mr. Rehberg. But it could end up being a sport for the
rich, getting into the National Park Service, because the
permits will not be controlled by the National Park Service, it
will be controlled--when you limit supply, the price goes up.
It's just a fact of life.
Mr. Seely. That's a good assumption. I don't think--at this
point, we've not heard that there's going to be any additional
cost for the concessionaires permits or anything like that. But
supply and demand will drive the cost up. Also, the snow coach
alternative initially said that it would reduce the cost for
the consumer to go in the snow coach. That is not the case. We
can show you charts and graphs and all kinds of background
information. That is not the case. It will become a very
expensive way to go.
Chairman Manzullo. I have a question to ask of Glen. Would
you explain the stream of tax income that comes from
snowmobiling?
Mr. Loomis. You're talking about the resort tax?
Chairman Manzullo. Right. Let me start in the opposite
direction. Do the schools in the area depend upon any of the
taxes generated by snowmobiles?
Mr. Loomis. Most of the taxes for the schools come from
property tax.
Chairman Manzullo. Okay. Mr. Loomis. The property tax
generates the revenue, but the town has a city resort tax. Now
that does not fund the school system, per se. It is used by the
town for its resources to provide city services. About 95
percent of the town's income comes from that three percent
resort tax that we were looking at. And as you can see, it's
very cyclic.
That runs your sewage system and water system?
Mr. Loomis. Well, to some extent. The services like water
and sewer are funded through user charges. They are run pretty
much from these user charges. They have been supplemented in
the past from our general fund, but they are primarily funded
from our user fees. But the other town services provided, like
police, sidewalks, streets, those kind of things, come from the
general fund, which are primarily funded from the resort tax.
Chairman Manzullo. That would be impacted.
Mr. Loomis. Yes. In the past, as you can see, as the park
is opened and closes, the income goes up and down tremendously.
Now, it's up in summer season--down when the park closes, et
cetera. As the park opens, there's an influx of visitors. As it
closes, it's immediately affected. Those things are real. It
affects the business, it affects the income to the city from
the city resort tax.
Chairman Manzullo. Appreciate that. Do you want to go into
the----
Mr. Rehberg. Let me ask one more question of Jackie, if I
might. And that is you referred to a survey that had been done
within the community and about a third of the Respondents or
150 people reacted positively to the comment. And I wrote down
healthy community, healthy park. Is that--is that what the
wording said? Did it speak specifically to an elimination of
snowmobiling in Yellowstone Park and could we have----
Ms. Mathews. It is part of----
Mr. Rehberg. It is part of your--not the statement but the
actual statement that was put out to their community for their
public response. Is that part of the----
Ms. Mathews [continuing]. Question, it is.
Mr. Rehberg [continuing]. Presentation?
Ms. Mathews. Would you like me to read the header to it?
Mr. Rehberg. If you could, please.
Ms. Mathews. With the changes in the winter management of
Yellowstone Park looming on the horizon, we the undersigned
residents and business owners of the West Yellowstone, Montana,
would like to present our view of the economic reality and
potential of our community. West Yellowstone is a hardworking
community with a proud history of adapting to management
changes in our neighboring park. Our winter economy is robust;
however, the economic well being of our gateway community
depends on the health and protection of Yellowstone Park.
Changes in Yellowstone's winter use must occur in order to
keep the park healthy. Reports of air and noise pollution hurt
the reputation of West Yellowstone and the park, which hurts
the marketing efforts and tourism potential.
Many predicted the demise of West Yellowstone during the
fires of 1988. Many local business leaders in our town are
convinced that the removal of snowmobiles from Yellowstone will
cause the downfall of our economy. They were mistaken in '88
and they are mistaken now. West Yellowstone is a resilient
community able to adapt and take advantage of changes.
The West Yellowstone area boasts over 300 miles of
snowmobile trail, excellent cross country skiing, scenic beauty
and the world's first national park. West Yellowstone will
thrive as long as the national beauty that attracts visitors
remains unimpaired.
For these reasons, we the undersigned residents and
business owners of West Yellowstone, Montana, ask Senators Max
Baucus, Conrad Burns, Congressman Rick Hill, Governor Mark
Racicot and our State legislators, county commissioners and
national park services to protect Yellowstone Park and thereby
ensure the visitors will continue to visit West Yellowstone and
support the community of West Yellowstone as a just,
diversified and rises to meet any challenges created by park
management.
Mr. Rehberg. Chairman Manzullo shared with me the hearing
notes on the Subcommittee on this very issue, and that preamble
wasn't in the documentation that was given to the Committee.
Was that preamble on all of the petitions that were passed out,
so that--what she just read is not the same as what was
presented to the Committee as the petition. And so I guess my
question is when people signed the petition, were they signing
specifically to their belief----
Chairman Manzullo. The petition mentioned nothing about
even limiting snowmobiling.
Mr. Rehberg. So I guess my question is the preamble----
Chairman Manzullo. It's just the statement of fact that you
want to have a good quality of life and maintain the beauty of
the park.
Mr. Rehberg. As I look at--I look at the petition as a call
for the healthy economy and a healthy park and I'm surprised
everybody in the community didn't sign. I would have.
Mr. Loomis. I would have.
Mr. Rehberg. But it didn't speak to the elimination of the
total ban of snowmobiles.
Ms. Mathews. I believe it does. Mr. Chairman, partway--
let's see, under the third point there. Many predicted the
economic demise of West Yellowstone during the fires of '88.
Today local business leaders are convinced that removal of
snowmobiles from Yellowstone will cause the downfall of our
economy. They were mistaken in '88 and they are mistaken now.
West Yellowstone is a resilient community and able to adapt and
take advantage of the changes.
Chairman Manzullo. Let's do this. I'd like to move into
allowing some of the folks to speak. Anybody here want to give
a one minute statement in the crowd? Here's what I want to do.
It's going to be very orderly. It's going to be limited to one
minute and I'm going to gavel you down. This is an opportunity
to make a comment, not to enter into a dialogue. We just don't
have time to do that.
What I'd like you to do is to try to line up over here
somewhere next to Glen. We'll do it on a first come first
person basis. And if you folks could move the line into the
area here. You're first. Go ahead, stay right there. And then
sort of get behind the curtain so the rest of the people can
see what's going on. Then when you make your statement, state
your name clearly and make sure you spell your last name for
the record.
Before we do that, let me go into something that we didn't
have chance to touch on, and that is that the impact of the
banning of snowmobiling is not just here at West Yellowstone
National Park. This park is owned by the taxpayers throughout
the entire United States. It is a federal issue and it's not
limited just to the gateway communities. It's important to
state that, because taxpayers throughout the country pay taxes
for the purpose of the national park system. And one of the
reasons that we're having the hearing is the fact that if you
look at the quantitative impact on cutting back the number of
production of snowmobiles, the impact is dramatic in the
manufacturing sector.
Let me just give you what it means to the district that I
represent. Rockford, Illinois, in 1981, led the Nation in
unemployment at 27 percent. There were more people unemployed
at Rockford, Illinois in 1981 than there were in 1930. Rockford
is about 35 percent manufacturing based. Most cities are about
19 percent. Within that city of 150 thousand, there are over a
thousand factories and many of them one and two people shops.
Many of those shops make parts for all types of vehicles. They
make parts for skis, they make parts for snowmobiles, for
Harley Davidson motorcycles. The manufacturing chain going into
snowmobiling is also significant. And where we are now, in our
economy in Rockford, we're at 7.1 percent unemployment.
I just came back from China where I serve as the chairman
of the American Chinese parliamentary exchange. If you look at
what's going on internationally, the United States continues to
slip in our manufacturing base towards a service base. And
there are many areas in the city that I represent, and in
Midwest cities like Cincinnati, Cleveland, or throughout the
country, that are very much affected by any limitations on the
number of snowmobiles that are manufactured each year. So there
is that chain that goes in.
In addition, the travel industry; the long distance
industry on telephones; the clothing industry; the host
industry; the advertising industry, that can be tremendously
impacted by the decision that is made by the National Park
Service. It will reverberate across the entire country.
All right. Let's take the first person. You've been very
patient. We're going to limit you to one minute.
Mr. Carsley. Hello, my name is Scott Carsley, C-A-R-S-L-E-
Y. I have been operating a snow coach only business in
Yellowstone since 1984. In other words, 100 percent of my
clientele are snow coach passengers. We deal a lot with cross
country skiers, which we transport in the park. And I remind
the people in this room that there are other snow coach
businesses which operate a camp which depend on cross country
skiers for their living.
Just like to clarify a couple other points here. Peak
visitation in Yellowstone during the winter months was the year
1992-1993. We had 71 thousand visitors that winter. We
collected 306,000 dollars in resort tax. 1998 and '99----
Chairman Manzullo. I have to limit it to a minute----
Mr. Carsley. 60,000 people. I also have two letters I would
like to submit to the record.
Chairman Manzullo. That'd be fine. You could just leave
them right here on the table. That would be fine.
[The information may be found in appendix.]
Ms. Mayhue. My name is Drusha Mayhue. M-A-Y-H-U-E. While
driving here today we were driving behind a sled carriage with
two snowmobiles attached to it. And I wondered how many people
can afford a snowmobile to rent or to buy? The majority of
people cannot afford that. I brought 44 people here to the
Yellowstone area in September of 1996 and they had a great
time. But those people won't come back in the wintertime with
the snowmobiles as the system is now. West Yellowstone is a one
horse town. They depend exclusively on snowmobiling. There is
snowmobiling outside the park. It will not shut down
snowmobiling.
Change is hard. I know that. I love West Yellowstone. But I
wonder if when electricity was invented, if the candlestick
makers, you know, started being concerned about their jobs. I'm
sure they were. But in the long term. The change was better for
all of--everybody.
Chairman Manzullo. Minute's up, thank you.
Ms. Mayhue. And I just want to say that Kennedy did say ask
not what your country can do for you but what you can do for
your country. And I ask what we can do for the Park Service,
not what they can do for us.
Chairman Manzullo. All right. Thank you. Like that.
Mr. Carlson. Thank you, Congressman. My name is Earland
Carlson, Fort Dodge, Iowa, C-A-R-L-S-O-N. My wife and I are
here. We have found four other couples we've become friends
with over the years here. We bring our own snowmobiles. I think
most of us believe it's a big world. There's room for all of
us. I, for one, am hurt by the constant park bias against
snowmobilers that I hear. Time won't permit examples. We think
that the research was agenda based and I doubt that it can be
reconstructed by a disinterested third party.
In Alaska, we heard that the caribou were going to die with
the pipeline. This summer we learned that the caribou numbers
have tripled since the pipeline was installed. That's not been
addressed here today. One of the joys in the park is seeing mom
and pop with two kids on two snowmobiles. Seven eight year old
snowmobiles with the thing, going towards newer models. I see
those mom and pop----
Chairman Manzullo. Minute's up.
Mr. Carlson. I call you to attention of dedicated to the
benefit and enjoyment of the people. Tear down the Northgate if
you continue this way, Park Service.
Mr. McCray. Hi, my name is David McCray and I have two----
Chairman Manzullo. Spell your last name, David.
Mr. McCray. M-C-C-R-A-Y. I operate 140 snowmobiles. We have
been in business since the mid sixties. My dad started the
business. And I want to come in front of you and tell you that
I represent thousands and tens of thousands of families that
come and visit me every year. Some of my clients have been with
me for 25 years in a row and these people came first with their
children, now they're coming with their grandchildren.
These people asked me to come here today and tell you that
this is an important part of their life; important part of
their family. They are not interested in going in a snow coach.
They want to protect Yellowstone. They have this as a very
special day in their life. And also my employees, they cannot
take a transition period. It just doesn't happen. A transition
period will--they will lose their houses in a transition
period. There's a compromise, limited numbers, cleaner, quieter
snowmobiles. We're going there. We're already there.
Chairman Manzullo. Thank you.
Mr. Anderson. My name is Tom Anderson, A-N-D-E-R-S-O-N,
from Madison, Wisconsin. Close to you, Congressman.
My wife and I have been coming to Yellowstone for probably
eight or ten years. We rode yesterday on the four cycle motors.
Clean, quiet. I own a four cycle engine snowmobile back in
Wisconsin. I think that's the coming of our industry. If you
take the 20 percent away from the businesses here that's been
talked about, only reducing it by 20 percent. As a small
business owner, if you take 20 percent of my economy, 20
percent of my income, I might as well close the door. I only
operate on eight or ten percent of profit. Bear that in mind.
There are many companies out here, mom and pop, small ones. If
you take 20 percent away from them, they're going to die. Thank
you.
Chairman Manzullo. Thank you, Mr. Anderson.
Ms. Loeffler. My name is Cheryl Loeffler, L-O-E-F-F-L-E-R,
and I drive a snow coach previously--previous winters. And the
impacts I've seen on just environmental issues, snowmobiles
being driven in the thermal mats, the bacteria mats--excuse me,
and the incidents with the wildlife, I feel that there needs to
be quieter machines. There also needs to be education for these
machines before releasing them on the wild habitat and into the
national parks or national forests. Granted, there are many
trails outside the park and I understand that people come to
the park to enjoy the freedom and of course I'm nervous. Sorry.
But um, we really need to take a good look at this issue, not
just from a small business point of aspect but also from
environmental issues. And there's a lot of off-road travel from
the snowmobiles and a lot of accidents just because they're not
familiar with the machine themselves. I would like to see a
safer environment for all persons.
Chairman Manzullo. Thank you.
Ms. Drake. Hello, my name is Valerie Drake. D-R-A-K-E. I
live in Belgrade, Montana. I just want to talk a little bit,
since the focus of this is on the economics of the town, about
changing communities. I have watched not only small towns but
some of the larger cities in Montana change dramatically over
the last 25 years. Mills shutting down, railroads shutting
down. You know, those are some of the biggies. Changes in
agriculture and lumber. And then also changes in the recreation
and tourism industry.
When there's a big industry that is going down, the
communities are always screaming about we're going gonna die. I
can sympathize with people. I know they're very concerned
about--more concerned about say, feeding their families than
about paying their rents and mortgages.
But what's really impressed me in watching some of these
changes over the years is how people get creative and how much
more quickly those communities turn around and even get
stronger for that diversity than what they were. So I want to
urge you to kind of take some of the this doom and gloom with a
grain of salt. I know it can be very hard----
Chairman Manzullo. Minute's up. Thank you.
Mr. Welch. Thank you. I'm Jack Welch. W-E-L-C-H. Not from
General Electric, however. I'm here on behalf--I'm president of
the Blue Ribbon Coalition. It's a large group of people
believing in access, using our public lands in a responsible
manner. We believe that Yellowstone is an icon and should be
protected. We also believe access should be provided. We feel
that there are responsible ways of accessing the park. We feel
that the new technology is very important and we feel that the
pilot program that Fran Mainella talked about is a good example
of when the Park Service steps up and manages the park for an
activity, this time snowmobiling, it can be successful. So
we're looking forward to continued snowmobiling in the park and
thank you for coming.
Chairman Manzullo. Thank you.
Ms. Phillips. Thank you. My name is Lisa Phillips, P-H-I-L-
L-I-P-S. I wasn't planning on talking today because I don't
like doing it, but I had to get up and remind everybody we're
talking everybody about our national treasure here, something
very, very special. Something we need to respect with our
hearts and with our souls. It's not a place where we can all
run amok.
I believe there should be a balance of different types of
recreation but we can't just let everything happen here in all
areas. And what's really happening, we seem to forget we're not
talking about small businesses as much as we're talking about
padding the pockets of large corporations like Suzuki and
Yamaha. The small businesses, like these gentlemen here, I'm
afraid that even they're going to get overrun by large outlet
stores from the bigger businesses, the corporations. We need to
be very careful where this is headed and not get too passionate
because I think we all want to protect these very special
national treasures that we have. Thank you.
Chairman Manzullo. Thank you.
Mr. Schmier. My name is Jerry Schmier, S-C-H-M-I-E-R. I've
been in West Yellowstone about 34 years. I am in the snowmobile
business. We run about 90 to a hundred snowmobile rentals. Been
doing it for about 30 years. I'm really concerned about some of
the statements that I hear. One of the representatives here
that talked today had mentioned, you know, against the
snowmobile thing and the coalition, and yet they don't have to
survive in the winter months. As a matter of fact, good part of
the winter months, they're gone. They're not here. Their
business is a summer business only.
So I know that you got to have a lot of different
viewpoints from a lot of different people, but believe me, if
we are even cut to 500 snowmobiles in the park, it's going to
be devastating. Our peak days is what we depend onto make a
living. And sometimes, that's a thousand, 1,100, 1,200
snowmobiles going into the park. Keep in mind, an equal
amount----
Chairman Manzullo. Jerry, your time's up. Thank you.
Mr. Schmier [continuing]. But I hope that you will support
the snowmobile issue. Thank you very much for being here.
Chairman Manzullo. Thank you for coming.
Mr. Steinmuller. My name is David Steinmuller. S-T-E-I-N-M-
U-L-L-E-R. I live about 70 miles north of here in Gallatin
Gateway, and a couple of weeks, for the second year in a row,
I'm going to be spending five days back country skiing out of a
facility in the canyon area of the park, operated by
Yellowstone Expeditions. Guests stay in small heated structures
with comfortable beds and there's a larger unit where
delicious, hearty meals are prepared by the staff each day. The
staff takes people out in cross country skiing in this back
country area.
This is a perfect example of a commercial operation that
can be encouraged and that could help make up some of the
economic problems that we've heard about. Thank you. Did I say
cross country skiing?
Chairman Manzullo. Yes. Thank you. You don't have to be
that nervous.
Ms. Steinmuller. Hi, I'm Pattie Steinmuller. S-T-E-I-N-M-U-
L-L-E-R, and I'm associated with David. I also did the same
cross country--exclusively cross country ski in this area in
the park, and in the rendezvous trail system operated by
national Forest Service. I live 70 miles away in Gallatin
Gateway. I stay here. I stay in this particular hotel in
November, when we have cross country skiing, ski camp. I--I'm
devoted to--committed to helping the West Yellowstone economy
with my money and also I feel that the park is what we really
deserve and need to protect. It needs to be protected
unimpaired for future generations. That is the most important
mission that even in the economic situation is very important.
And I think the future of West Yellowstone lies in a very
diverse economy. In the winter, particularly when the economy
is so concentrated on the snowmobile----
Chairman Manzullo. Your minute's up.
Ms. Steinmuller. And it needs to be more diverse. Thank
you.
Chairman Manzullo. Thank you.
Mr. Heyes. My name's Todd Heyes, H-E-Y-E-S, and it's easy
for you to say don't be nervous. But I moved to Montana in '68
to go to school. I've stayed in Montana since then, earning a
living in western Montana because of the beauty of the
surrounding areas. In '95, I relocated to West Yellowstone.
I'll try to keep this short.
All I can say is the Park Service is the golden goose that
we're all talking about. You have to keep it healthy. It
belongs to the whole Nation, not to just West Yellowstone. But
there is room for both snowmobiles and cross country skiing and
all sorts of other things. If in fact we can't sell the beauty
of this area and make a living at it, we don't deserve to be in
business. Thank you.
Chairman Manzullo. Thank you.
Mr. Case. Thank you. My name is Harold Case, C-A-S-E, and
you probably think I speak funny because I'm from the east. I
am president of the American Council of Snowmobile Association,
and I'd like to speak as a snowmobiler.
I brought 52 people from New Hampshire and Vermont here
this week. Last year, I brought 29 and they would not ride in
the snow coach. They're here to snowmobile in the park and they
are today. Also, I came here in '92. Most of the stores in this
town were boarded up. Today, look at what you have here. We
come here, we spend our money. This is what helps the economy
of this area. With that, I'd like to see the park stay open to
snowmobiling.
Chairman Manzullo. Thank you.
Mr. Slyke. My name's Steve Slyke, S-L-Y-K-E, and I'm a
school teacher and fly fish guide from Bozeman. As someone who
often is kind of a welcomer to tourists in this region and
meets hundreds of people every summer, I'm definitely an
advocate of Montana and Yellowstone Park. It's a place where I
fish and have a lot of fun with a lot of people out here.
One of the issues that come up is when we start discussing
the West Yellowstone issues and the issues with the
snowmobiles, people from Minneapolis, Atlanta, Dallas, LA, the
kind of places where my clients come from, they continually
hear the headlines of poor air quality and a lot of the things
that are happening with regards to decibel levels up and down
the streets of West Yellowstone. This place has a reputation of
not having conservation first with regarding the park. And a
lot of people that would otherwise want to be here for
wintertime have chosen to ski and do other things, even active
snowmobilers, because they've heard about what's happening in
the west. And the spin out there right now is not good. And I
think if we're able to diversify our economy here and have some
of these other low impact, quiet sports be part of the mix or a
more prevalent part of the mix, I think the economy overall----
Chairman Manzullo. Thank you.
Mr. Slyke [continuing]. And my clients would be willing to
come back.
Chairman Manzullo. Thank you.
Mr. Hollow. My name is John Hollow, I'm a product of the
park.
Chairman Manzullo. Spell your name, John.
Mr. Hollow. Hollow, H-O-L-L-O-W. My mother came here from
Washington, DC, was drawn to the beauty of the place. My father
came from Livingston because he was drawn to the beauties of
the place. And my mother was smart enough to say you can't
drive----
Chairman Manzullo. Please put the mic closer.
Mr. Hollow. She was smart enough to say, you can't drive me
back east unless we're married; and that's why I say I'm a
product of the park.
I'd like you to look at the fact that the park is this
tremendous carrot. And thinking out of the box, can we use that
carrot to get people to get off of a motorized vehicle. You
talk about jobs, but until we get people and use what we have
to get people to walk, to ski, as Mr. Rehberg does, we're going
to be a society that continues to increase the number of people
that die because we're not walking. Three hundred thousand
people in America will die because they're not exercising.
You've got a carrot here. Use it.
Chairman Manzullo. Thank you.
Mr. Collins. My name is Clark Collins, C-O-L-L-I-N-S, and
I'm the executive director of the Blue Ribbon Coalition. About
20 years ago, my folks went into the park in a snow coach. They
came back saying that it was noisy and smelly and uncomfortable
and not that great of an experience. Shortly after that, they
bought snowmobiles and they've been snowmobiling ever since.
I have now a ten year old granddaughter that is starting to
snowmobile. And in about six years when she gets her driver's
license and is able to go into the park, I would like to be
able to go with my parents, who are still alive and actively
snowmobiling, and my granddaughter and have four generations on
a snowmobile trip into the park. I hope you will save that
experience for us, thank you.
Chairman Manzullo. Thank you.
Mr. Wheeler. My name is Paul Wheeler.
Chairman Manzullo. Spell your name.
Mr. Wheeler. W-H-E-E-L-E-R. I think what we are ignoring
here again is the fact that we are talking about economics
here. We're here to talk about numbers. These gentlemen would
not be in business if the demand for snowmobiles in Yellowstone
National Park wasn't there. Yes, I bring my own machines with
me. We spend probably seven to 800 dollars per trip when we
come up here. But the fact is the service stations wouldn't be
open, the cafes wouldn't be open and I'm looking at this from
sheer numbers. I'm looking at the number of snowmobile rental
agencies versus the number of bike shops or fishing shops.
These gentlemen, like I said, would not be in business if the
demand wasn't there from the public. I bring my family. I want
to see Yellowstone National Park and I want it to see it on a
snowmobile. Not a snow coach. Not on skis.
Chairman Manzullo. Thank you.
Ms. Van Poolen. Hello. My name is Deborah V-A-N capital P-
O-O-L-E-N, and I'd like to speak to the issue of health. I
wonder what is economic vitality when you don't have your basic
health? I have allergies and I cannot stand to ski behind a
snowmobile. The places where I can go to ski without ensuring
that there will not be snowmobiles are precious and few; and I
would love to be able to come in Yellowstone Park and know that
I won't be inhaling exhaust fumes, which are definitely bad for
my health.
I read in a report that in the winter, the pollution in
West Yellowstone compares to that of Los Angeles. And I'm
wondering in the future, are people gonna not be able to come
here at all because the pollution is so horrendous in the
winter. I would really encourage us to broaden the abilities
for people to be here and allow the snowmobiles to go into the
Forest Service lands, the BLM lands, but allow the skiers to
have some places----
Chairman Manzullo. Debbie, your time is up. Thank you.
Ms. Van Poolen. Thank you.
Mr. Johnson. Mr. Chairman, my name is Jerry Johnson, J-O-H-
N-S-O-N, and it's a pleasure to speak to the Committee on Small
Business. I wear many hats, one of which is I'm the mayor of
West Yellowstone. Others are that we have small businesses. My
family's been here since the forties and I've been here all my
life.
What I want to talk to you right now is when people
downplay the 30 or 25 or 20 percent that would be lost to West
Yellowstone during the transition period, I own a small
shopping mall in West Yellowstone and it has eight shops in it,
one of which is not open in the winter, the rest are all open
in the winter. And there's no one in that mall that can
disagree with me that they struggle to make the rent payments.
They struggle to make the payments to their purveyors. If they
struggled to make their payments with what we have going on
now, I struggle because they can't make their payments. If we
have a transition period that is a 20 percent loss, that is
going to be devastating to those small business owners.
Chairman Manzullo. Jerry, thank you.
Ms. Wheeler. My name is Vicki Wheeler, W-H-E-E-L-E-R. I'm a
mother and I bring my children to Yellowstone. I love the park.
I love the colors of the park. I love the geysers in the park.
I love to go to Artist's Point. I love all of it, and I bring
friends with me so that they can see it. Those that don't have
snowmobiles, we usually bring somebody all the time.
I don't want to destroy the park. It's never been part of
me to do anything that would hurt the park. I really am
grateful for the service that's provided and for the new
dimension that's given to my life, because it's offered me
things that I wouldn't have otherwise. Thank you.
Chairman Manzullo. Thank you.
Ms. Klatt. My may name is Lois Klatt, K-L-A-T-T. Thank you
for coming to listen to us. I've lived here for 35 years. I'm a
skier and I ski in the park three or four days every week, and
I never hear a snowmobile. I never see anybody else. The snow
machines have to stay on the roads. The skiers can go anywhere.
I think there's room for everybody in the park.
[Applause.]
Ms. Steele. Hello, my name is Raynetta Steele, S-T-E-E-L-E.
I own a small motel, a restaurant and a lounge and in the
winter, I struggle just to stay even. And thankfully, I have a
mortgager who works with me, otherwise, I wouldn't be here. And
I'll guarantee you I employ about 33 people during the
wintertime, and if there were no snowmobilers, I would have to
close and I would not survive. Absolutely not survive. I
struggle right now to stay even. I could not survive now
without some help.
There are some people like Jackie, she gets her money in
the summertime. I don't get that much money. She closes in the
wintertime, doesn't survive. Doesn't have to survive. Melissa
has her partner, herself in her industry. That's all she has to
care for. But I have 33 people plus.
Chairman Manzullo. You can talk afterwards about what their
interactions are. I appreciate your statement. Thank you.
Mr. Oldroyd. My name is William Oldroyd.
Chairman Manzullo. Spell your last name.
Mr. Oldroyd. O-L-D-R-O-Y-D. I'm a hotel operator and owner
in town. Snowmobile rental operator and owner. I appreciate
Glen, Bob and Clyde's comments today. I endorse everything
they've said.
[Pause.]
Mr. Oldroyd. If you think the last 30 seconds have been
quiet, close down the park to snowmobiles.
Mr. Muir. Hello, my name is Tom Muir. I'm from----
Chairman Manzullo. Spell your last name.
Mr. Muir. M-U-I-R. My family and I have been coming to this
community since 1971 on almost a continuous basis. We have
snowmobiled in most areas in the North American snowbelt. The
reason that we return to this community is because of the park.
It's a unique feature to be able to ride your personal
snowmobile and almost reach out and touch the park.
And we sincerely like to leave it the way we found it and
maybe even make it a little better if possible. We're not
against change, but please, do not take this unique feature
away from fellow snowmobilers. Thank you very much.
Chairman Manzullo. Thank you.
Ms. Hollow. Janice Hollow, H-O-L-L-O-W, from Helena,
Montana. Native Montanans. I'm an avid cross country skier and
this weekend my husband and I came down--we left four friends
up at Big Sky who will not stay here because the air's
polluted. And I haven't heard anyone speak about having to pipe
fresh air in. I don't know, is it a half mile or quarter mile,
so the people at the gate can have fresh air to take the money
of the snowmobilers. I believe in diversity. I think if we
have--learned nothing from Enron, it is West Yellowstone,
diversify your portfolio.
Chairman Manzullo. Thank you.
Mr. Roos. My name is Shane Roos. Last name's spelled R-O-O-
S. I own a small snowmobile rental operation here in West
Yellowstone. Kind of a unique operation that I don't have a
motel or any other properties that are associated with it. I
strictly do snowmobiles. So if I am put out of business, I can
go do something else. I don't have any property, you know, to
worry about or anything like that.
I am still concerned with the access of Yellowstone
perspective on everybody's comments. I would very much disagree
with limiting access to Yellowstone National Park or to any
land in the United States of America for that matter at all.
I've seen the technology, I have my own mechanic, I've seen the
technology coming. It's already here. We have snowmobiles that
use one fourth of the amount of gas as the current two cycle
motors. The technology's here. It needs to be developed. Give
it time to be developed. We'd all feel really stupid if we shut
the park down and all of a sudden came out with a new electric
snowmobile that has no pollution and no noise. Thank you.
Chairman Manzullo. Thank you.
Mr. Gordon. My name is Greg Gordon, I live in Bozeman.
Heard a lot of arguments today about the economic impacts and I
think a lot of that seems that some of it is speculative as to
whether something will be hurt or it will increase, I think we
need to keep in mind the real issue is the health of ecosystem
and that with our huge growing population, that we really need
to recognize that the earth has limits and we need to look at
what the impacts of snowmobiling in Yellowstone are and keep
that in mind. We know those impacts. We know that it causes air
pollution, we know that it impacts wildlife and we recognize
that. I support the ban on snowmobiling in Yellowstone. I'm an
avid cross country skier. I would support a ban on skiing if I
knew that it had an adverse impact upon the area which I lived
and the wildlife and ecosystem which all our life depends on.
Chairman Manzullo. Thank you.
Mr. Schaap. My name is Bill Schaap, S-C-H-A-A-P, retired.
I've been in the snowmobile business as an employee for many
years. In 1969, I brought a group of Boy Scouts into
Yellowstone when it was more or less wilderness. And those men
now still thank me for that experience because there is no way
to replace an experience on snowmobile in Yellowstone in the
hearts of 95 percent of the people. I also have supervised and
am supervising now a snow coach operation on a part time basis.
I listen and see the need for people that need to have snow
coaches with small children and so on. The elderly and so on.
But also promoting both of these industries for years, the
interest is not there nationwide. The snow coach industry on
its own cannot survive. If it gradually evolves into that, I
would be very surprised. Thank you.
Chairman Manzullo. Thank you.
Mr. Bluth. Thank you for your time. My name is Rick Bluth,
B-L-U-T-H. I'm from the State of Utah. I'm here as a tourist
and I'd like to testify as a tourist. I come here, bring my
family, spend my money here. I come here primarily because the
park is here. We have the greatest snow on earth. We're
bragging Utah. I don't need to come here, but I choose to come
here because the park's here and I like to snowmobile and that
sounds like--that was all I had to stay. Thank you.
Chairman Manzullo. Thank you.
Mr. Krauss. My name is Jeff Krauss, K-R-A-U-S-S, and I'm a
resident of Gallatin County.
You ask a question about the economic impacts on the
schools, and while it's true that the schools don't get any
resort tax, generally the schools are financed by property
taxes. Those property taxes are paid by buildings like this
that depend on the industry. And if you take that industry away
and these businesses go out of business, you will reduce the
property taxes that the schools get and you will have a
significant impact on the schools. And I just wanted that for
the record since you asked. Thanks.
Chairman Manzullo. Thank you.
Mr. Rehberg. You have three more.
Mr. Andreason. My name is John Andreason and I'm from Utah.
Chairman Manzullo. Spell your last name.
Mr. Andreason. A-N-D-R-E-A-S-O-N. My family has a cabin in
Island Park. I rode my sled over here today just because I seen
this meeting in the paper, and I wanted to come and throw my
two cents worth in.
I love snowmobiling. I've had my own sled since 1969 and
I've been bringing people here to the park and to the
surrounding area to recreate and try to encourage people into
the snowmobile industry since 1975. My family loves it. My wife
broke her arm on a brand new sled two years ago, but it's just
one of those things. I love snowmobiling and I would like to
invite you to go for a ride anytime you want.
Chairman Manzullo. I am right, after this.
Mr. Andreason. I would love to take you for a ride anytime
you want to go.
Chairman Manzullo. Thank you for your testimony.
Mr. Andreason. I love snowmobiling and I love West
Yellowstone.
Chairman Manzullo. The lady who is in line now will be the
last person that will give testimony.
Mr. Winter. My name is David Winter and I own two retail
businesses in West Yellowstone. They're not snowmobile related
but all our income in the wintertime is generated strictly from
snowmobilers. If you ask the majority of the businesses in
town, they will all tell you that the skiing industry does not
support West Yellowstone. We cannot make it on cross country
skiing alone. We bought a snowmobile just to access Yellowstone
in the winter because we love the park. That's why we're here.
But there is room for everybody. Skiers can go anywhere in
the park they choose to go. Snowmobilers are restricted to the
roads, period. And you really need to look at this impact that
it's going to have on this town and businesses all over the
country. Thank you.
Mr. Roberson. Hi, my name is Randy Roberson, R-O-B-E-R-S-O-
N. I am in agreement with what Clyde and Glen and Bill had to
say here today. I'm in the snowmobile, snow coach, bus tour and
lodging business here in West Yellowstone. I grew up here. And
I just want to comment that, you know, Yellowstone wasn't
locked up during the evolution of EPA compliant automobiles,
and we're on the threshold of having EPA compliant snowmobiles.
So let's don't lock them out right now. Being in all four of
those businesses, I'll tell you if I thought it was such a
great economic idea for me to ban snowmobiles, I wouldn't be so
opposed against it.
Chairman Manzullo. Thank you.
Ms. Bayley. My name is Shirley Bayley, B-A-Y-L-E-Y. I've
never done this before. I'm a cross country skier, a snowshoer,
a supporter of Free Heel and Wheel store, but I also really do
like to be tolerant and look at the broad picture and try to
figure out how we can do this for everybody. You know,
economically and environmentally. I would like to challenge the
man who had the moment of silence. I would like to say, okay,
I'll get on a snowmobile and see what it's like, but I would
also like to challenge snowmobilers to get off the snowmobile,
turn off the engine and experience the silence of the park and
the world. Silence is just something that's beyond economics
and environment. It is a gift to all of us, that I would like
not to lose for anybody. Thank you.
Chairman Manzullo. And the lady here will be the last
person to testify.
Ms. Zymonas. I wrote my thoughts down. My name is Joanie
Zymonas, Z-Y-M-O-N-A-S, and I feel so strongly about protecting
Yellowstone National Park that I stand here before you to
volunteer my time and help anyone who chooses to make a
positive change by helping phasing out snowmobiles in the park.
I would gladly share my knowledge of installing computer
accounting software or bookkeeping, office management. I also
am a trained jeweler, so I can share that skill with anyone who
would like to learn. I commend anyone out there only to stand
out and make a change. There are other ways out in the world to
make a living.
I find it very disturbing that the children of this
community requested restrictions on snowmobile use because the
noise impacted them during the school day and the adults of
this community voted it down. I think all community members
should be heard. There is at the chamber of commerce in Bozeman
and I'm sure they would provide that service for anyone here.
It's called SCORE. Service Corps of Retired Executives. They
give free information for anybody who wants to become an
entrepreneur and open up their own business. I spoke with some
of them and they give free information. They're there to help.
Chairman Manzullo. Thank you. Congressman Rehberg, want to
give a closing statement?
Mr. Rehberg. Yes, Mr. Chairman, I want to once again thank
you for making your time available to come out and listen to
the residents of the State of Montana and our guests from our
surrounding States. I want to thank the panelists for bringing
their testimony forward and understand that it would be carried
forward not only in the United States Congress but to the
national park services as they attempt to make their various
recommendations.
It's a testament to the people of the Montana that as we
listen to the one minute comments, that it was almost pro and
then con and pro and con, but done in a very civil way. And
that's the way Montana is.
Chairman Manzullo. I think you should all give yourself a
big hand for that.
[Applause.]
Mr. Rehberg. The emotionalism that is usually surrounding a
national issue such as land usage can oftentimes cloud our
ultimate decision making process. But those of us that take
public administration seriously always want to have an
opportunity to hear from you. We represent you in the United
States Congress. And sometimes that's hard because in some
issues, it's split 50/50 or 70/30, and it's hard to make those
decisions, but we try to make the right decision. We can't do
that without your input. That was what this hearing today was
an opportunity to do.
Again, I thank Chairman Manzullo. I have a placard on the
back table back there. It's a comment card. It's got my toll
free number, got my Web page, got my email address. I
continually look for ways to open up the dialogue to include
the people that I represent in Congress. If I can serve as any
intermediary between the Federal Government, sometimes doesn't
sound like it's listening to you or doesn't seem to care, we
hope to fill that role. If you'll pick up one of those cards,
fill out the comment card if you have additional information,
if you just like to get on our list. My gentleman back there,
Tom, is holding it up. You can see it's a yellow card. It's for
comments. I hope that you will take the time to do that. I
thank you for taking your time out of busy days. I know we've
only got 24 hours in a day. It's important enough for you to be
here. I thank you again, Don, for taking time out of your
schedule to be in Montana.
Chairman Manzullo. Thank you very much. First of all, I
want to thank the witnesses that have testified. You're all
local business people. You don't come from national
organizations with a national agenda but you're testifying from
the heart as to how these proposed regulations will impact you
and the community. We could listen to the professionals from
the big organizations in Washington. But when we come out here
to a field hearing, the very purpose of that is to hear the
hearts and attentions of the people who are dramatically
impacted by it.
I want to commend the five panelists here and everybody
else in the room, especially those who also got up and made the
statements. I also want to thank the Park Service for being
here, listening, taking lots of notes, making sure that this
undoubtedly will be part of the comment period because that's
the reason for this hearing.
The name of the hearing is Protecting Small Businesses and
National Parks: The Goals Are Not Mutually Exclusive. I think
it's important that that is the perspective from which I come
as chairman of the Small Business Committee. As I've listened
to the testimony here, it's obvious there is room to meet the
interests of everybody. The new four cycle engines, our new
generation, it's not the two cycle, noisy, polluting machines
of the past.
But also is the opportunity to take what is a very
difficult situation and to turn that around for good for entire
community. I've never fly fished before. I'll be back. I've
never been on a mountain before bike before. I'll be back. In
fact, I was telling Denny on the way down here, I've got to
find a reason to come back in the summertime. And he suggested
another reason for a hearing. And we can find good reasons to
do that. The quality of the testimony and the demeanor of the
people here, I believe, is exemplary of the process that's
going on.
The part of Illinois that I represent contains a 13,000
acre facility formerly known as the Savannah Army depot. During
World War One it was an ordnance center, where ordnance was
fired to test the quality of the range, et cetera. Several
years ago, 400 jobs were lost from that area as a result of the
latest round of closing down military bases. In the midst of
trying to piece together a recovery plan, we ran into an
incredible log jam with, not the Park Service but the Fish and
Wildlife Service, the local redevelopment agency, the State and
Federal EPA and the Department of Army.
I saw all this--I don't want to use the word contention,
but lack of coordination going on, because everybody was trying
to get their interests involved. In fact this area right on the
Mississippi. It has part of the glacial prairie in it. Very few
areas in the world that have glacial prairie area. It's also a
nesting ground for bald eagles. You wouldn't think you'd have
these things in northern Illinois. And right next to it is the
largest mallard duck breeding facility in the world in a little
town called Hanover, Illinois.
So our area, even though it's heavily industrialized, also
is very sensitive ecologically. We have 12 super fund sites in
our congressional district. We always have to look at balance.
How do we balance the needs of nature with the needs of man.
How do we balance keeping people in the business at the same
time making sure at that time goal and the mission of the
national parks system is maintained. One of the ways that we
could that is through hearings and public forum like this.
People come together, they put the input.
As I listened to the testimony of all the witnesses, it
occurs to me that there is a way that the National Park Service
can come up with a plan to satisfy everybody's interests. Maybe
not to the extent that they would want, but to satisfy and
still keep the park system as pristine as all of us want it to
be.
When I was in China two weeks ago, I had the opportunity to
speak at Fudan University. This is a group of about 250
students that are studying the American government. And I'm
invited to go back in November and teach the basis of
constitutional law and what gives rise to the freedom in this
country. At the end of that incredible two hour forum, a young
man stood up, speaking English in a very nervous tone. It was a
second language. He said you know, Congressman, maybe one of
the reasons that the Chinese do not understand the Americans is
the fact that in our country, we don't have the freedom of
expression that you have. And the place was very silent. And on
the way out, the Chinese interpreter said Congressman, five
years ago, nobody could make that statement without being
ushered off. She said, now people can make these statements.
What these 250 young Chinese are doing is they're studying
the genius of the American system. I wish they could have been
here today. This is the town hall meeting, this is the type of
meeting that exemplifies the beauty of the First Amendment and
the need for everybody to have a part in making America the
great Nation that it is.
Again, thank you for coming. We appreciate the opportunity
to be here and I will be on a snowmobile or snow coach within
one hour. Thanks again. This meeting is adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 12:25 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]
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