[House Hearing, 107 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                                                                       

                      ENERGY AND WATER DEVELOPMENT

                        APPROPRIATIONS FOR 2002

_______________________________________________________________________

                                HEARINGS

                                BEFORE A

                           SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE

                       COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS

                         HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                      ONE HUNDRED SEVENTH CONGRESS
                              FIRST SESSION
                                ________
              SUBCOMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND WATER DEVELOPMENT
                         SONNY CALLAHAN, Alabama
 HAROLD ROGERS, Kentucky             PETER J. VISCLOSKY, Indiana
 RODNEY P. FRELINGHUYSEN, New Jersey CHET EDWARDS, Texas
 TOM LATHAM, Iowa                    ED PASTOR, Arizona
 ROGER F. WICKER, Mississippi        JAMES E. CLYBURN, South Carolina
 ZACH WAMP, Tennessee                LUCILLE ROYBAL-ALLARD, California
 JO ANN EMERSON, Missouri
 JOHN T. DOOLITTLE, California      
                         
 NOTE: Under Committee Rules, Mr. Young, as Chairman of the Full 
Committee, and Mr. Obey, as Ranking Minority Member of the Full 
Committee, are authorized to sit as Members of all Subcommittees.
  Robert Schmidt, Jeanne L. Wilson, and Kevin V. Cook, Staff Assistants
                                ________
                                 PART 3
                                                                   Page
 Bureau of Reclamation............................................    1
 Testimony of the Secretary of the Interior.......................    2
 Appalachian Regional Commission..................................  657

                              

                                ________
                     U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
 73-798                     WASHINGTON : 2001





                      COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS

                   C. W. BILL YOUNG, Florida, Chairman

 RALPH REGULA, Ohio                  DAVID R. OBEY, Wisconsin
 JERRY LEWIS, California             JOHN P. MURTHA, Pennsylvania
 HAROLD ROGERS, Kentucky             NORMAN D. DICKS, Washington
 JOE SKEEN, New Mexico               MARTIN OLAV SABO, Minnesota
 FRANK R. WOLF, Virginia             STENY H. HOYER, Maryland
 TOM DeLAY, Texas                    ALAN B. MOLLOHAN, West Virginia
 JIM KOLBE, Arizona                  MARCY KAPTUR, Ohio
 SONNY CALLAHAN, Alabama             NANCY PELOSI, California
 JAMES T. WALSH, New York            PETER J. VISCLOSKY, Indiana
 CHARLES H. TAYLOR, North Carolina   NITA M. LOWEY, New York
 DAVID L. HOBSON, Ohio               JOSE E. SERRANO, New York
 ERNEST J. ISTOOK, Jr., Oklahoma     ROSA L. DeLAURO, Connecticut
 HENRY BONILLA, Texas                JAMES P. MORAN, Virginia
 JOE KNOLLENBERG, Michigan           JOHN W. OLVER, Massachusetts
 DAN MILLER, Florida                 ED PASTOR, Arizona
 JACK KINGSTON, Georgia              CARRIE P. MEEK, Florida
 RODNEY P. FRELINGHUYSEN, New Jersey DAVID E. PRICE, North Carolina
 ROGER F. WICKER, Mississippi        CHET EDWARDS, Texas
 GEORGE R. NETHERCUTT, Jr.,          ROBERT E. ``BUD'' CRAMER, Jr., 
Washington                           Alabama
 RANDY ``DUKE'' CUNNINGHAM,          PATRICK J. KENNEDY, Rhode Island
California                           JAMES E. CLYBURN, South Carolina
 TODD TIAHRT, Kansas                 MAURICE D. HINCHEY, New York
 ZACH WAMP, Tennessee                LUCILLE ROYBAL-ALLARD, California
 TOM LATHAM, Iowa                    SAM FARR, California
 ANNE M. NORTHUP, Kentucky           JESSE L. JACKSON, Jr., Illinois
 ROBERT B. ADERHOLT, Alabama         CAROLYN C. KILPATRICK, Michigan
 JO ANN EMERSON, Missouri            ALLEN BOYD, Florida
 JOHN E. SUNUNU, New Hampshire       CHAKA FATTAH, Pennsylvania
 KAY GRANGER, Texas                  STEVEN R. ROTHMAN, New Jersey    
 JOHN E. PETERSON, Pennsylvania
 JOHN T. DOOLITTLE, California
 RAY LaHOOD, Illinois
 JOHN E. SWEENEY, New York
 DAVID VITTER, Louisiana
 DON SHERWOOD, Pennsylvania
 VIRGIL H. GOODE, Jr., Virginia     
                                   
                 James W. Dyer, Clerk and Staff Director

                                  (ii)


 
           ENERGY AND WATER DEVELOPMENT APPROPRIATIONS FOR 2002

                              ----------                             

                                          Thursday, April 26, 2001.

                         BUREAU OF RECLAMATION

                               WITNESSES

GALE NORTON, SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR
J. WILLIAM McDONALD, REGIONAL DIRECTOR, PACIFIC NORTHWEST REGION 
    (EXERCISING THE COMMISSIONER'S AUTHORITY), BUREAU OF RECLAMATION

                   Opening Statement by Mr. Callahan

    Mr. Callahan. Good morning. This morning we are pleased to 
have with us the Secretary of the Interior, the Honorable Gale 
Norton. Ms. Norton, it is nice to see you again.
    She is accompanied by Mr. William McDonald, who is the 
Regional Director for the Bureau of Reclamation, Northwest 
Region, and who is acting as the Commissioner of Reclamation. 
We would also like to welcome you and welcome the staff that 
you have brought with you. I don't guess all of these people 
are staff, but welcome to all of you.
    We look forward to working with you this year and moving 
your appropriations through the process. The President's budget 
request has presented a great challenge to this panel, and we 
will need your help if we are going to have a successful year--
and I think we are going to, incidentally.
    We had the opportunity last night to speak to Senator 
Domenici. He is really incensed about the lack of recognition 
of the importance of water matters in the country by the 
Administration, and I am glad to hear that. I am glad to hear 
he is incensed, because we are going to need some help in the 
Senate as well. But, hopefully, by the time the dust settles, 
we will have adequate levels of money available to allow you 
the opportunity to have an effective Department, as far as our 
little subcommittee is concerned, and to allow the Corps of 
Engineers to be effective as well.
     We will place all of your prepared remarks in the record 
and ask you to summarize, if you possibly can. Anyway, welcome.
    Mr. Visclosky, if you have an opening statement.
    Mr. Visclosky. Only to welcome the Secretary, Mr. McDonald 
and their staff.
    Mr. Callahan. Madam Secretary.

                 Opening Statement by Secretary Norton

    Secretary Norton. Mr. Chairman and members of the 
committee, I am very pleased to be with you today to give you 
an overview of issues relevant to the Bureau of Reclamation, 
and then I will provide you some perspective on the overall 
Department of the Interior budget and then turn things over to 
Bill McDonald to address the specifics of the Bureau of 
Reclamation budget.
    This is a difficult year for the Bureau of Reclamation 
because throughout the West we are seeing drought conditions 
arise. The snowpacks are mostly only 45 to 85 percent of 
average, and the runoff forecasts are generally only 30 to 70 
percent of average. Given the well-publicized California power 
shortages, as I came into office I asked about the ability of 
the Bureau of Reclamation to supply hydropower. The response 
that we got was that, while the Bureau is working hard to 
address those needs, this is the second-worst drought in the 
history of the Bureau of Reclamation in the Pacific Northwest 
area.


                         RECLAMATION'S MISSION


    This kind of situation reminds us of the importance of 
Reclamation's mission. It contributes nearly 15,000 megawatts 
of hydropower capacity to the West's energy system. It's 
reservoirs also allow us to smooth out some of the peaks and 
valleys in water flow by storing water from rainy seasons for 
use in droughts. This is important for the ability of our 
systems to address needs, especially in times of short water.
    As a Westerner, I have seen the important role that the 
Bureau of Reclamation can play in arid western States, and I 
understand that water planning is a very important part of 
dealing with growth of human populations in the West.
    Beyond the traditional water for agriculture, the Bureau of 
Reclamation plays a role in balancing the needs of natural 
ecosystems in an increasingly urbanized society. Today its 
projects are much more environmentally friendly than in the 
past. Off-stream storage means we are not daming wild rivers. 
Controlled water releases can enhance water availability in 
critical times for endangered species and other water-dependent 
species.


                             KLAMATH RIVER


    I would like to share with you the kind of difficult 
decision-making that typifies the Bureau of Reclamation 
situation today. This involves an area in northern California 
and southern Oregon known as the Klamath River Basin. A Bureau 
of Reclamation dam was built there in approximately 1907. Since 
then it has delivered water to irrigators.
    Just to give you the simplified version of what that area 
looks like--it is really much more complex--essentially, we 
have an upstream lake in which there are two species of 
endangered sucker fish. Downstream we have the coho salmon, 
which is also endangered, and also another species of fishthat 
is at risk. There are five Indian tribes in the area with unadjudicated 
water claims.
    The biological opinions by Fish and Wildlife Service within 
my department and the National Marine Fisheries Service in the 
Department of Commerce set the amounts of water that are needed 
for the fish. In this second driest year for the Bureau of 
Reclamation in that area we found that it appeared that there 
would not be enough water to satisfy all of the needs. In my 
first few weeks in office, we went into a scramble of getting 
communications from the Members of Congress from the area and 
working with them; hearing from the farmers; and having 
repeated meetings with all of those who were affected by this 
situation. Ultimately, we had to tell 1,600 farm families that 
there would be no water this year to meet their needs.
    I have asked my staff to keep in mind the faces of those 
farm families and of the many more Hispanic farm workers, the 
people who work in those communities, as we administer our 
programs and to remember that there is a very human impact in 
the way in which government does business. This is also an 
example of just how incredibly challenging the role of 
administering water has become for the Federal Government and 
for the Bureau of Reclamation.

                         FY 2002 BUDGET REQUEST

    This year's budget request for the Bureau of Reclamation is 
$783.5 million. This is a $6.7 million increase over fiscal 
year 2001. This is consistent with the overall approach of the 
President's budget. The overall budget for the Department of 
Interior for fiscal year 2002 is $10 billion.
    We need to compare this budget year with the past history 
of the Department. When we look at the 2001 fiscal year, it was 
a spike for Interior, as it was for many of the departments. If 
we look at the comparison between 2000 to 2001, the budget 
increased by 20 percent. If we again look at 2000 as the 
baseline, our budget this year is an increase of 17.6 percent. 
So while our budget is a slight decline from 2001, the overall 
rate of increase for this department has been quite significant 
compared with prior years.
    I won't go into all of the aspects of the Department's 
budget, but there are a few areas that are relevant to the 
decision-making for this Committee because this area is one 
that requires us to look at environmental issues as we are 
making our decisions.

                    LAND AND WATER CONSERVATION FUND

    The President has proposed for the first time fully funding 
the Land and Water Conservation Fund Stateside program. With 
the Federal and the State component of the program, we will 
have $900 million that is available for conservation purposes. 
The President is proposing expanding the purposes for the 
Stateside program. In the past it has been available only to 
provide recreation-type activities, parks and swimming pools 
and so forth. We are now expanding that to provide conservation 
abilities, to have the States be able to look at endangered 
species habitat enhancement, and be able to provide open space 
for our cities, to provide a whole variety of different kinds 
of needs that the States will be able to assess.
    We also, from the Federal side of that Land and Water 
Conservation Fund, are proposing the creation of landowner 
incentive programs. These would be opportunities for the 
Federal Government, either through the States or directly, to 
provide incentives for private landowners to conserve and to 
operate their lands to enhance the habitat for endangered 
species. Again, this may have some application on the water 
side as well.
    We would provide technical assistance. We would provide the 
opportunity to remove invasive species and to enhance habitat 
directly for at-risk species and thereby, at a very low cost to 
the Federal Government, have a tremendous impact in enhancing 
the actual habitat that is available.
    These are the kinds of creative solutions that we want to 
explore in order to reconcile environmental needs and the needs 
of human beings. That is the kind of thing in which I hope to 
engage in a dialogue with this committee over the coming years 
so that we can meet the needs for the future of Americans and 
so that we can have the ability to provide what is necessary in 
water resources at the same time that we are aware of 
environmental needs.
    Thank you very much.
    Now I would like to provide the opportunity for Mr. 
McDonald.
    [The prepared statement of Secretary Norton follows:]
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                   Opening Statement by Mr. McDonald

    Mr. McDonald. Thank you, Secretary Norton.
    Mr. Chairman, members of the subcommittee, it is a pleasure 
to present the President's budget request to you in my capacity 
as Acting Commissioner.
    As Secretary Norton has indicated, the total request for 
current authority is a little over $783 million this year, an 
increase of $6.7 million over the 2001 enacted level. Within 
that, two major components, $763.5 million for Reclamation 
programs and $20 million for the Bay-Delta Restoration account.
    Within the $763.5 million request for Reclamation programs, 
there is $648 million for the Water and Related Resources 
account, which is a decrease of $31 million from 2001 enacted 
levels. There is $55 million for the Central Valley Project 
Restoration Fund, which equals our request for the full 
authorized amount of projected revenues to that fund; and that 
is about a $16.7 million increase over fiscal year 2001. I 
think it is important to note that that request, of course, is 
offset by discretionary receipts of $45 million so that there 
is only a $10 million scoring against the subcommittee's 
allocation, and that is comparable to fiscal year 2001.
    Thirdly, there is a request for $53 million for policy and 
administration; and, finally, $7.5 million in the loan program, 
which will, in fact, complete three loan projects in California 
in fiscal year 2002.

                      WATER AND RELATED RESOURCES

    In the Water and Related Resources account, just to 
highlight some details, that account, as I indicated, reflects 
a total request of $648 million, and that results from three 
net effects overall, if you will. First of all, within 
resources management and development, there is a decrease of 
about $62 million relative to 2001 enacted levels. That, 
however, is offset by an increase in the operation and 
maintenance and rehabilitation of existing facilities by $17.1 
million, and that includes the dam safety program for $74.6 
million and reflects the priority that Reclamation places on 
the continuing maintenance and safe operation of our existing 
projects. Then, finally, there is a $13.9 million decrease in 
undistributed underfinancing, which is something we would hope 
the committee would adhere to.
    To summarize, I think what I would indicate to the 
committee, Mr. Chairman, is that, as Reclamation approaches its 
100th anniversary, having been created in 1902, we believe that 
the budget reflects our commitment to continuing to meet the 
needs of the West's water and power in a fiscally responsible 
manner; and we do so, of course, in cooperation with our 
contractors and with State tribal and local governments, other 
stakeholders, and the public at large. We believe that we are 
able to bring workable solutions to the water and power 
resource issues that are consistent with ever-growing demands 
on that finite and limited resource and with the need to pursue 
cost-effective and environmentally sound approaches to meeting 
those demands.

                       CHALLENGES TO RECLAMATION

    One of our strategies for meeting those challenges is to 
target planning programs in science and technology that search 
for contemporary solutions to the resource constraints that the 
Nation faces and to look for cost-effective solutions to 
complex challenges that we face; and, needless to say, those 
challenges are many.
    First, we have an aging infrastructure that requires us to 
focus on dam safety, facilities improvements, technological 
upgrades, and preventive maintenance to ensure the reliability, 
increased output, and the improved safety and organization of 
all those projects.
    Secondly, we are meeting contemporary environmental 
requirements so that we can continue to deliver project 
supplies in an ever-growing and increasingly complex set of 
circumstances, as the Secretary referred to.
    Thirdly, within the limits of our budget priorities we are 
completing supply-oriented solutions with innovative approaches 
to water and power conservation and with programs for 
wastewater reuse and recycling.
    And, finally, our participation in Indian water right 
settlements, as authorized and directed by the Congress, and 
the growth of rural water projects serving Indian reservations 
and others, particularly where we have been directed by statute 
to fund the continuing operation and maintenance of some of 
those projects, is putting substantial pressure on our overall 
budget.
    The projects and programs highlighted on page 4 of my 
written statement are illustrative of those four challenges, 
and I would certainly invite your attention to them for some 
details.
    With that, Mr. Chairman, we thank you for your continuing 
support and look forward to working with the committee this 
year.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. McDonald follows:]
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    Mr. Callahan. At this point, without objection, we will 
place in the record the budget justification material for the 
Bureau of Reclamation and the Central Utah Project Completion 
Account.
    [The information follows:]
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    Mr. Callahan. Well, thank you both.
    Let me inform the committee that we will try to extend this 
courtesy to all of you as we go through our process this year, 
but Mr. Doolittle has a conflict and must leave shortly, and he 
has a lot of activity in his district, in his area, with 
respect to this agency. So, with your indulgence, I am going to 
yield to Mr. Doolittle for his participation in the program at 
this point.

                       Statement by Mr. Doolittle

    Mr. Doolittle. Mr. Chairman, I am certainly grateful to you 
for this courtesy. I wouldn't ask it under ordinary 
circumstances, and to the members I express my appreciation as 
well. The meeting is a meeting of Californians to discuss 
CALFED, which is a meeting I feel I cannot be absent from, at 
10:30.
    So I have a lot of questions I would like to ask you Madam 
Secretary. I just want to commend you for the job you are 
doing. I appreciate your personally being here this morning. I 
think that says a lot for the priority you place on working 
with Congress; and it is really very, very nice to have you and 
your people here with us.
    You said the Bureau is not in the business of damming wild 
rivers, but how about the ones that aren't wild? Is there some 
room for doing something there?
    Secretary Norton. Each project certainly has to be 
determined on its own merits. We want to find creative 
solutions. We want to ensure that we are meeting the needs as 
we balance the environmental issues. We will certainly look at 
each project as it comes along.

                               AUBURN DAM

    Mr. Doolittle. Well, I have got one I have spoken to you 
about and will be speaking to you about, known as the Auburn 
Dam, an authorized Bureau of Reclamation project. Although I 
must say some of your people down the line seem not to show 
much enthusiasm for it anymore, which is rather disturbing to 
me in light of our both current energy and water crisis.
    As you pointed out, the Northwest is in a drought, and we 
have experienced severe droughts before in my part of 
California, and it is only a matter of time until that happens 
again. If we don't develop more water resources, then every 
time the drought happens the circumstance are worse.
    My question to you, Madam Secretary, is we have now--this 
committee has very generously completed appropriating money for 
a permanent pumping plant at Auburn to provide the water 
entitlement that the Placer County Water Agency has, and I just 
wondered if you could give us an update on where that project 
stands and any progress that you are aware of now in terms of 
the construction schedule.

                                 CALFED

    Secretary Norton. I will turn some of that over to Bill 
McDonald to provide the answers. I do want to say I visited 
California recently and had the opportunity to examine the 
facilities and tried to get more of an understanding of the 
overall CALFED issue. I think the approach that California is 
attempting to use in that process, of bringing all of the 
individuals who are aware of the issues together to try to find 
solutions, is the right kind of approach, and we will look 
forward to working with you on the elements of that overall 
program. We include money in the budget for that CALFED 
program.
    Mr. Doolittle. Before Mr. McDonald answers, so far it is 
all talk and no action, I might point out, in CALFED. At least 
no action on anything to increase yield, just action on 
environmental restoration. The whole premise of CALFED was that 
we would all get better together, and the failure to come to 
terms on that resulted in no reauthorization last year and no 
new Federal funding. I am quite confident that that will 
continue to be the position this year unless we can come to 
terms. I am hoping we will come to terms on this. In fact, with 
this Administration, I think things are going to be much more 
productive in terms of arriving at a solution.

                          AUBURN DAM SCHEDULE

    Mr. McDonald. Some details, Congressman. The design 
specifications in the EIS-EIR for the permanent pumping plant 
are under way, scheduled for completion in the fall of this 
calendar year. Funds appropriated by Congress in 2001 could be 
used to initiate construction. And, as you well know, once 
construction is started, it would take about $40 million, and 
we would estimate a 3-year period to complete construction.
    Mr. Doolittle. So when would you anticipate actually 
commencing construction?
    Mr. McDonald. We would not anticipate commencing 
construction until 2003 or 4.
    Mr. Doolittle. Three years ago, the then regional director 
of the Bureau, Roger Patterson, notified me that some funds 
originally appropriated by this subcommittee for the project 
had been reprogrammed but would still be available once 
construction of the project commenced. And given that 
construction will start soon, could I ask are those funds 
presently available to reprogram back into where they are 
supposed to go?
    Mr. McDonald. It is true, Congressman, funds had been 
redirected in the past. We have spent about $3 million to date. 
I am aware that funding remains available and unexpended. I 
don't remember the number, off the top of my head. I would be 
glad to respond for the record.
    [The information follows:]

         Placer County Water authority Permanent Pumping Plant

    Of the approximately $17,000,000 appropriated to date for 
the Placer county Water Authority Permanent Pumping Plant, 
$11,000,000 has been reprogrammed, transferred or lost to 
underfinancing. Of the remaining $6,000,000 that has not been 
expended, $3,000,000 has been used for design activities, which 
leaves $3,000,000 available to initiate construction.

    Mr. Doolittle. That would be great. I have many more 
questions but, Mr. Chairman, out of courtesy to you and the 
members for affording me this opportunity, I will terminate at 
this point, and I thank the Secretary and the Commissioner for 
their responses.
    Mr. Callahan. Thank you. And with the further indulgence of 
the committee, Mr. Frelinghuysen has a similar problem, so we 
are going to recognize him at this point.

                     Statement By Mr. Frelinghuysen

    Mr. Frelinghuysen. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. To the Ranking 
Member, thank you very much for that courtesy.
    Just to take one minute. First of all, Madam Secretary, 
congratulations. I am particularly pleased that both you and 
the President are fully funding the Land and Water Conservation 
Fund. I think that is very important. I come from a very 
densely populated State, and many of us in the East and 
Northeast would like to see more of those, especially Stateside 
dollars, included. We can put it to good use. Land is 
disappearing fairly rapidly, and if other parts of the country 
don't want to use it, we will be happy to use it.
    Also, I would say that anything we can do to enhance some 
of the good work that our wildlife refuges are doing, adding on 
to them, I think some of those accounts are not as high as they 
should be. I represent the Nation's oldest national historic 
park, and there are a lot of things that are needed in that 
park and I am sure in other parks around the Nation.
    So these other accounts are important, but I certainly 
salute you for the full funding for the Land and Water 
Conservation Fund. That is the first time we have actually seen 
that in my time on this committee.
    Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Callahan. You are welcome.
    Mr. Visclosky.

                             CALFED PROGRAM

    Mr. Visclosky. Mr. Chairman, I feel sorry for Mr. Wamp if 
you are going in alphabetical order on this.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Madam Secretary, if I could return to a topic touched on by 
Mr. Doolittle, the CALFED program.
    In your testimony, you mentioned the provision of $20 
million for the California Bay-Delta restoration program and 
indicated that the $20 million would be undertaken within 
existing statutory authority. Could you explain that?
    Secretary Norton. We have the ability to work on some of 
the fish and wildlife type of issues. There are additional 
monies that are requested that are not specifically identified 
for CALFED but that will be used for projects that are within 
that area--fish and wildlife, restoration type projects, and 
other more specific projects.
    I will let Bill comment on what is included in the $20 
million, but overall we have $95 million that is proposed to be 
expended in that area.
    Mr. Visclosky. The Commissioner indicates there is about 
$64.7 million.
    Mr. McDonald. Yes, that is correct, Congressman. 
Reclamation has substantial standing authorities, particularly 
from the Central Valley Project Improvement Act, that authorize 
us to undertake activities that are consistent with what the 
CALFED program calls for. In our budget we have the line item 
that is referred to as the Bay-Delta account. That is the 
request for $20 million. Part of that $20 million would go 
towards the environmental water account that the CALFED program 
calls for in the amount of $12.5 million.
    Mr. Visclosky. Could you provide us with the specific 
statutory authority for the record for that $20 million?
    Mr. McDonald. Certainly.
    Mr. Visclosky. You believe you have the statutory authority 
right now to spend that $20 million?
    Mr. McDonald. Yes, to do the two things that will be done 
with that $20 million. No question.
    Mr. Visclosky. There is a question in my mind about that, 
but I would appreciate your citing the statute authority.
    Mr. McDonald. That authority would be the Central Valley 
Project Improvement Act.
    Mr. Visclosky. If you have that type of authority, why do 
you need reauthorization of CALFED?
    Mr. McDonald. There are substantial other components of the 
CALFED program that are not authorized under current law.
    Mr. Visclosky. They must be pretty substantial if you feel 
you can spend $84.7 million with no additional authority.
    Mr. McDonald. Certainly the Central Valley Project 
Improvement Act authorities are broad in a number of regards. 
We have been operating under those since 1992, of course.
    Mr. Visclosky. Would those monies, including that $64.7 
million, would those be over and above the money you have 
specifically earmarked for central valley project?
    Mr. McDonald. The way we arranged the budget, Congressman, 
we have this line item referred to as the Bay-Delta account, 
that is the request for $20 million. Then in the Reclamation 
account that is referred to as Water and Related Resources we 
have the other $64.7 million that you referred to. Those funds 
would basically show up within that account under the Central 
Valley Project line item.
    Mr. Visclosky. Would I be correct in understanding, then, 
that part of those monies would be part of the $648 million 
that you have asked for Water and Related Resources?
    Mr. McDonald. Yes, that is correct.
    Mr. Visclosky. Which represents a $31 million reduction 
from the current level.
    Mr. McDonald. A net reduction of $31.0 million, correct.

                CENTRAL VALLEY PROJECT RESTORATION FUND

    I am also being reminded, Congressman, that the other 
source of funding, besides the Water and Related Resources 
account, is the Central Valley Project Restoration Fund.
    Mr. Visclosky. And if I recall under the Central Valley 
Project, for specific earmarks you are also looking at a $13 
million reduction?
    Mr. McDonald. In the Central Valley Project line item, yes.
    Mr. Visclosky. So we are seeing, one, you have a specific 
reduction as far as the Water and Related Resources account. 
You have a $13 million reduction in the Central Valley Project. 
And you are indicating that you have got up to $84.7 million 
available for CALFED with no new authorization, despite the 
fact the gentleman from California is going to a meeting in 
about 2 minutes on that issue. And in the committee report last 
year we specifically noted, as far as CALFED, that, ``In light 
of the fact that the authorization for this program ends in 
fiscal year 2000, the committee has recommended no new funding 
for fiscal year 2001. Should the program become reauthorized 
before work is completed on the fiscal year 2001 Energy and 
Water Development Appropriations Bill, the committee will 
reconsider its recommendation.''
    I would further point out, ``The committee expects that the 
remaining unobligated balances of this program will be used 
equitably for ecosystem restoration and other authorized 
activities'' and then we denote a number of water use issues: 
promote and develop water use efficiency, water quality, 
groundwater storage, surface storage, levees,conveyance systems 
and watershed management plan. Then we go on to ask there be a balance 
between Northern California, the Delta region and Southern California.
    From some of your remarks, a lot of these monies would be 
expended in the Delta region; or am I incorrect in that?
    Mr. McDonald. I don't know that they could be characterized 
as physically being spent in the Delta region. They will 
certainly go to the water management activities that encompass 
the Delta region. But the Delta, of course, serves as the hub 
of the California water supply system, to the benefit of both 
Northern and Southern California.
    Mr. Visclosky. My concern from a policy perspective, but 
obviously we are appropriators here, is that, and my impression 
is you don't have an agreement yet within the State of 
California, and we have California members here, on what CALFED 
should look like. The question I would have as an appropriator, 
then, is why go off and spend $84.7 million that you feel you 
have authorization for but that the committee specifically in 
its report last year said it felt you did not have authority 
for? And we have the Central Valley Project, where you are 
taking some of your authority, and where you are requesting $13 
million below this year's level and you are requesting $31 
million below this year in the Water and Related Resources 
account and we are taking money out of there. I am wondering 
the wisdom of that until there is a defined agreement and 
authorization to spend that money in a balanced fashion between 
restoration, as well as water use, and the geographic 
disbursements of those monies.
    To be honest with you, and for the record, because I don't 
want to belabor the point, if you could very specifically 
delineate the authorization and the purposes of the expenditure 
of those $84.7 million, I would appreciate that very much.
    Secretary Norton. We would be happy to provide that 
information to you.
    [The information follows:]
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                       CALFED RECORD OF DECISION

    Secretary Norton. I will point out that in August of last 
year there was a record of decision signed by Federal officials 
and State officials, and that the State of California has now 
come up with $390 million as its part of this process. So the 
State side is very fully engaged on this and is moving forward.
    There are many Federal activities that require 
authorization before we can move forward on very large chunks 
of the overall $8.7 billion program. But we have a number of 
operations that take place within California generally, as you 
know, and just the redirecting of some of those makes them 
consistent with and in furtherance of the CALFED agreement.
    Mr. Visclosky. I appreciate what you are saying, I really 
do. But, again, my concern would be that we piecemeal specific 
items pending a political determination as to what a 
comprehensive agreement pursuant to Federal authorization 
should look like when I am also looking at accounts for the 
Central Valley Project; and the last time I visited the Central 
Valley, which was last week, they need water. And I assume 
there are other projects within the State of California and 
other States out west that would need some of these monies that 
are being cut. Again, the problem I have is in plugging those 
in, short a comprehensive agreement. It just gives me pause.
    Secretary Norton. We would be happy to provide the detailed 
information so that you can look at it. I think you will find 
that the $64 million is, to a large extent, continuation of 
things that this committee has authorized and has appropriated 
money for in the past.
    Mr. Visclosky. Thank you very much.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Callahan. Mr. Wamp now.
    Mr. Wamp. I don't have any questions.
    Mr. Callahan. Mr. Edwards.

                        Statement By Mr. Edwards

    Mr. Edwards. Madam Secretary, congratulations on your 
appointment and welcome to our subcommittee. Commissioner and 
others, thank you for being here.
    Madam Secretary, I don't pretend to be an expert on water 
supply issues, but coming from Texas I certainly see in our 
State looming shortages over the next decade or two, all across 
the State, from the smallest rural communities to the largest 
urban areas.
    In a very simple form it seems to be a problem in terms of 
the Federal Government's role in the sense that the Corps of 
Engineers' primary focus in terms of rivers would be on flood 
control. As I look at the Bureau of Reclamation budget, it is 
simply too limited to deal on a large-scale basis with any new 
water needs around most parts of the country.

                   FEDERAL ROLE IN STATE WATER PLANS

    I guess my question to you would be, do you think there is 
an important Federal role to play in helping States plan for 
their water needs over the next 10 to 20 years? And if so, what 
role do you think your agency and/or the Bureau should play in 
that process?
    Secretary Norton. I believe that there is an important role 
for the Federal Government. I do have to say I come from the 
perspective of a lawyer who has practiced some amount of water 
law from the State perspective. I feel very strongly that water 
allocation issues are very much a matter of State law. The 
Federal Government plays a role in supplementing that and in 
helping define what the needs are that will be met. So it has 
to be very much a cooperative process with the States and with 
local governments and with those who are affected by the 
decisions that are made.
    I think the Federal role has been to provide, very often, 
the up-front costs that are then paid back eventually by those 
who are more locally involved in the projects. I think that has 
been a very significant role and one that is important and 
should continue.
    Mr. Edwards. Just in my area of Central Texas, back in the 
1940s and 1950s, Congressmen Bob Poage, Tiger Teague and others 
helped fund a number of Corps of Engineers' lakes; and I wonder 
where we would be today in our water supplywithout what they 
had done.
    I do know the population in this country has gone up, but 
the number of major dams and water development projects we are 
developing is limited. Where will we be 20 years from now in 
our water supply needs throughout the country? Do you have any 
insight as to--population is going up, and we are not 
developing new sources of water--where we go to buy water for 
our families in this growing population?
    Secretary Norton. I think we have to be a lot smarter in 
the way we go about providing the water. While massive projects 
are probably not as likely to occur in the future, there are a 
lot of things that can be done to try to enhance the water 
supplies within a given area. There are very few one-size-fits-
all kinds of solutions, but the overall approach is to involve 
everybody within an area in trying to balance out the 
environmental issues, to be sure that the water supplies are 
provided in the way that is most environmentally advantageous.
    With water issues, I know, and you all certainly know this 
responsibility much better than I do, you have to think decades 
into the future. That is what makes this a very challenging 
area. I see the process as being something that has to be fine 
tuned for individual areas.
    Mr. Edwards. Thank you.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Callahan. Thank you.
    Mr. Pastor.

                        Statement By Mr. Pastor

    Mr. Pastor. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Good morning, Madam Secretary. Welcome and congratulations. 
Coming from the Southwest, and in particular Arizona, your 
agency is very important to us and has been in the development 
of Arizona, so I welcome you.

                         PIMA-MARICOPA PROJECT

    There are at least two areas I would like to talk to you 
about, and one deals with the Pima-Maricopa Irrigation Project. 
In your written statement you talk about the top priority this 
Administration and you have with the American Indians. And as 
you know, in Arizona, as the CAP developed, there were 
commitments made to the various Indian nations in how the water 
was going to be allocated, then how it was going to be 
distributed. And one of the nations that we have made an 
agreement with is the Gila River Indian tribe.
    As you know, many of your people in your agency have been 
involved with Senator Kyl, as well as the Arizona delegation, 
in bringing about the Gila River water settlement. As that 
issue is settled--and I think you will find that the State, the 
municipalities, and the agricultural industries are all wanting 
this settlement so that we can go forward and pay our bill to 
the Bureau of Reclamation and put everything behind us as it 
deals with CAP--the issue remains that we made a commitment 
many years ago to provide money to the various Indian tribes so 
that they could get the water that was allocated to them and 
then be able to distribute it to their farms and increase their 
economic potential and bring the benefits.
    Past administrations have not been very kind to the Gila 
River Nation, and I see in Mr. McDonald's written presentation 
that the request of $31 million for the cap just deals 
partially with the Gila River Indian reservation, other Indian 
nations, recreation, endangered species, remediation on the 
Roosevelt Dam, et cetera, et cetera. The request for the Pima-
Maricopa irrigation project is $43 million in itself, and that 
would bring us not even halfway to our commitment in meeting 
the obligation that we did by contract and by law.
     Could you explain if this line item, the Pima-Maricopa 
irrigation project, is going to be separate from the CAP, or is 
it part of the $31.4 million? And if that is the case, again we 
are going to be inadequate in funding this particular 
obligation that we have.
    Secretary Norton. Let me allow Bill McDonald to respond to 
your specific question. Then I will follow up on Indian water 
right settlements.
    Mr. McDonald. Congressman, it is part of the Central 
Arizona Project line item. That line item, as you noted, is a 
request for $31.4 million. Within that $31.4 million what we 
refer to as the Indian distribution division, which is more 
than the Gila River Indian community, totals $24.4 million.
    Mr. Pastor. Excuse me. I didn't hear you.
    Mr. McDonald. What we refer to as the Indian distribution 
division, which is more than the Gila River Indian Community, 
it is all the Indian distribution systems, that totals $24.4 
million as part of that Central Arizona project line item, and 
the Gila River Indian community is $21.7 million of that $24.4.

                         GILA RIVER LEGISLATION

    Mr. Pastor. The problem that we are having as we come to 
closure in the settlement, and I think hopefully this year as 
you know, Senator Kyl has introduced the bill, we are going to 
bring closure on that issue and, hopefully, the bill will pass 
the Congress and will become law. It puts us behind in our 
commitment to the Gila River Community if we cannot get as 
close as we can to the $43 million request. I am making a plea 
on their behalf and also on behalf of the Arizona delegation.
    Secretary Norton. Well, I have spoken with Senator Kyl 
about this issue, and I understand how much we need to do to 
try to allocate funds to a number of different projects.
    I personally have been involved, as a State official in 
Colorado, with the Animas-La Plata project. I have seen how we 
had one agreement that was approved by Congress and then 15 
years later needed to come up with a different agreement that 
was approved by Congress because the funding was never 
finalized. So I know how very frustrating that can be and how 
much that can disrupt not just the tribal users but also other 
water users. So I am very sympathetic.
    Mr. Pastor. Thank you.
    Secretary Norton. We will look forward to working with you 
as we try to allocate resources in working with the committee.
    Mr. Pastor. In your conversation with Senator Kyl and in 
the settlement there is a procedure to use CAP monies to be 
able to reach our commitment to the Gila River Community and 
other tribes and provide for their needs for construction and 
water allocation, but have you had an opportunity to discuss 
that particular funding mechanism with him that he is proposing 
in the bill?
    Secretary Norton. I am afraid that is a level of 
sophistication beyond my current understanding.
    Mr. Pastor. Okay. Because I think in his funding mechanism 
that is part of the legislation, the Bureau of Reclamation is a 
principal player, and I would hope that you would look at it 
and work with us. I know you will, because it is very important 
that we settle the water allocations among the Indian tribes 
and provide money for theGila River Community so that they can 
provide for their people. It is a commitment that we authorized, I 
think, back in the early 1990s, and we have yet to fulfill it.
    I did support you on your particular situation with the 
Colorado tribes. I remember that it took many years. I think 
last year we finally found some solutions to it.

                           WATER RECLAMATION

    In talking about the future and how the arid Southwest is 
going to maintain the growth that it has seen for the last 
decade--Las Vegas, Nevada, Phoenix, Arizona, and other parts of 
the Southwest--we know that we have to conserve the water, but 
we also have to learn how to reclaim water.
    One of the projects that we have in Phoenix, that is 
cofunded by the Corps of Engineers and the Bureau of 
Reclamation, deals with the reclamation of effluent. West of 
Phoenix we have a big wastewater plant, and what we are trying 
to do, and I think we are doing a good job, is show how and 
demonstrate how effluent can be reclaimed and be reused to 
restore the habitat and, at the same time, be used for 
commercial purposes or municipal purposes. We will probably 
need funding from the Bureau of Reclamation to the tune of 
about $.5 million to continue this project.
    I think from this project we will learn how we can use the 
effluent from other major cities in the Southwest to reclaim 
water, and I would invite you to come visit us, and ask you for 
your support in funding this project. The project is named the 
Tres Rios, and it is a confluence of three rivers in western 
Maricopa County.
    Secretary Norton. Thank you.
    Mr. Pastor. I yield back, Mr. Chairman.

                        WATER NEEDS IN THE EAST

    Mr. Callahan. Thank you, Madam Secretary. I can't help but 
sit here and make an observation that most of your efforts and 
most of your priorities--and it is not limited just to your 
current Administration, but through Secretary Lujan and 
Secretary Babbitt you all seem to think that there are no 
reclamation needs east of the Mississippi River. Seemingly, and 
I don't mean this to be totally critical, the only thing that 
you do east of the Mississippi River is blow sirens.
    When it comes to endangered species, you have more 
endangered species listed east of the Mississippi than you do 
west, with the sucker fish and the coho salmon that you talked 
about earlier, and we have needs east of the Mississippi River 
also, reclamation needs, projects that should be considered.
    I am happy Mr. Frelinghuysen is making some progress, along 
with the Department's cooperation, with some problems in New 
Jersey. I know that some are the earmarked projects, the 
Central Valley Project, and the other projects that are there, 
but reclamation is something that should be of interest to you 
Nationwide.
    Secretary Norton. Mr. Chairman, the Bureau of Reclamation 
is geographically limited in scope by existing law.
    Mr. Callahan. That is my problem. I noticed this back 6 or 
7 years ago when I brought this up to Secretary Babbitt, and he 
was to send me some suggested language that we could expand 
that. In fact, we can expand it already simply by directing 
money. There is no prohibition against you spending money east 
of the Mississippi.
    In the bill that passed this committee 6 years ago, I 
happened to be thinking about this at that time. I was on the 
subcommittee, and the closest thing they had was some money for 
the New Orleans Jazz Festival. I don't know how that fit into a 
description, but it was there. I didn't question it because Mr. 
Bob Livingston from New Orleans was the chairman of the full 
committee at that time; and if he thought and the Secretary 
thought that that is what we ought to be doing, that was fine 
with me.

                      RECLAMATION NEEDS IN ALABAMA

    But I started wondering then what about Alabama, what about 
Mississippi and the other States that have reclamation needs. 
We don't have the water distribution problems that you have 
with respect to irrigation, but we do have some reclamation 
needs, and we do not certainly have a shortage of employees 
east of the Mississippi who spend a lot of time trying to 
determine what an endangered species is. I think they do 
probably a much better job east of the Mississippi than they do 
west of the Mississippi. But we need to find a way to get some 
Administration to recognize the importance of true reclamation 
projects and amend whatever language we need in the law to 
expand your jurisdiction.
    Certainly the popularity of the Fish and Wildlife Service 
in my district doesn't rank high, it ranks very low, and here I 
am asking a Federal bureaucracy to expand operations into 
Alabama. It is not something that really sits well with 
Alabamians, but nevertheless we have needs in Alabama. We have 
needs all over the Southeast. And we have water, a lot of 
water, and we have a lot of water that is not clean that should 
be cleaned up and could be cleaned up if proper resources were 
put there.
    I am not asking you to go back and redesign your agency. I 
am just asking you to sometime during this next several years, 
during our tenure, that we find a way to do something positive 
rather than blowing sirens in the State of Alabama.
    Secretary Norton. Mr. Chairman, if I might suggest, we 
certainly do want to avoid a duplication of effort and setting 
up additional management infrastructure and so forth when what 
everybody really wants to focus on is the on-the-ground 
improvements. So I do see division of labor with the Corps of 
Engineers, with the idea that they already have the geographic 
base and could probably more cost effectively handle programs 
in the eastern United States.
    But to the extent we are talking about Fish and Wildlife 
Service type issues, I would be happy to sit down and work with 
you on trying to address your constituents' concerns.

                       PRESIDENT'S FY2002 BUDGET

    Mr. Callahan. I assume from your opening, your statement, 
which was submitted for the record, that you are satisfied with 
the President's recommended numbers for 2002?
    Secretary Norton. Yes, sir, that is correct.
    Mr. Callahan. You even seemed to indicate that a reduction 
was an increase, and you wanted us to go back to the year 2000 
and look at it from there. If you go to the stock market in 
1994 and you look at the Dow Jones industrial average and then 
you go to where it is today, that is very positive. But if you 
had any stock in the last 4 or 5 years and you look at it, it 
is very negative. And I think that is what I heard you say, 
that if you look at 2001 appropriations and 2002 suggestions, 
it is a reduction; but if you look at 2000 and 2002, it is an 
increase.
    That is a very positive way to look at something, and I 
just wondered if this budget reflects the true views. I am sure 
you are going to back up OMB and back up the President, but are 
these numbers what you need to have an effective resource 
opportunity for the next fiscal year?
    Secretary Norton. Yes, Mr. Chairman. As to the areas within 
your committee's jurisdiction, we do have an actual increase 
over fiscal year 2001, even as high as that was.

                   WATER AND RELATED RESOURCES BUDGET

    Mr. Callahan. Well, let us just go down them and see. 
Primarily where the work gets done is in the Water and Related 
Resources account. You have actually requested a decrease 
there. Was there a significant one-time increase in this fiscal 
year that causes you to come and say give us $32 million less 
than you gave us last year? That is not an increase in Water 
and Related Resources.
    Secretary Norton. I had better let Bill McDonald talk about 
the individual accounts.
    Mr. McDonald. Just for the history, Mr. Chairman, the 
enacted level for Water and Related Resources in 2000 was $608 
million. In 2001, it was $679 million. The request this year, 
as we have indicated, is $648. So it is a substantial increase 
relative to 2000, a decrease from 2001.
    Mr. Callahan. What about 2001, though?
    Mr. McDonald. It is a decrease from 2001.
    Mr. Callahan. That is what we have to look at. We don't 
have the depth to go any further back. We are looking at a 
request from you all to cut Water and Related Resources.

                        BUDGET FOR ADMINISTRATIN

    If you go on down to the bottom of your statement, you say 
you need a $3 million increase for administration. Why wouldn't 
the same thing apply there? That is a pretty healthy increase 
in your administrative costs. So what you are saying is if you 
go back to 2000 and you look at the administrative costs you 
don't want to use that, you want to use 2001 numbers. But if 
you go for water resources, which is where the projects are 
funded for the various States--I just wonder how you could--it 
is unusual.
    And I am not being critical. I mean, listen, if you don't 
want the money, we are not going to give it to you.
    But it is unusual that you would come and say reduce my 
project capability by $32 million and increase my 
administrative capabilities, which would mean you would have 
more people looking at endangered species, I suppose, and less 
money to do anything about it?
    Mr. McDonald. Not in our case. That is not what Policy and 
Administration is for.
    Mr. Callahan. No, but I am saying that is what we are 
looking at. We are looking at your request. If you want a $32 
million decrease, we will give it to you, but we just want to 
make certain that unlike the Corps of Engineers and unlike 
other agencies that you are not agreeing with the President 
publicly but disagreeing with him privately on the submission 
of this request.
    Secretary Norton. Mr. Chairman, this amount was determined 
by looking on a project-by-project basis at what was 
appropriate for that project. I believe that we are comfortable 
with what we have proposed. Obviously we understand that your 
role is to examine those as well, but we are comfortable with 
the allocation to these projects.

                    NEW COMMISSIONER OF RECLAMATION

    Mr. Callahan. When would we expect to see a new 
Commissioner named?
    Secretary Norton. It is a frustratingly slow process. 
Nobody is more frustrated than I am by how slowly this all 
moves. I have been interviewing and trying to fill all of the 
assistant secretary and bureau head positions. I anticipate 
that it will be a few weeks before we have an announcement of 
an individual, and then of course we have to go through a 
longer process before they are nominated. If you can urge your 
colleagues on the Senate side to move quickly once we have 
presented the nominations to them, that would be greatly 
appreciated.

                        BILLION DOLLAR BUREC PIN

    Mr. Callahan. Have you seen this ``$1 billion for BUREC 
pin''?
    Secretary Norton. Yes, I have seen that pin. I am not sure 
who that is from.
    Mr. Callahan. What they are saying is they want a billion 
dollars and what you are saying is you don't need a billion 
dollars. Who is right?
    Secretary Norton. Well, I think with funding issues there 
is always a question of----
    Mr. Callahan. What do I tell these people? I don't run the 
administrative branch of government. I am an appropriator. I 
asked the Secretary about it and she said no? Is that what I 
should tell them?
    Secretary Norton. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Callahan. I don't know that I support the billion 
dollars, but I just wonder, I just wonder about this. A lot of 
members are going to be obviously contacted because it is a 
pretty well organized group of people, but it is hard to tell 
them that we are going to shove a billion dollars down your 
throat when you are not requesting it. But anyway, I just 
wondered if you had any suggested response that we could give 
to these people when they come to us and tell us to increase 
your funding to a billion dollars.
    Secretary Norton. I think it is important that we look on a 
project-by-project basis at what those needs are. We will try 
to operate as cost effectively as we can and ensure that we are 
providing as much on the ground service as possible with as 
little waste as possible.

                             ALABAMA DELTA

    Mr. Callahan. I know your jurisdiction limits you and we 
talked about the priorities you have west of the Mississippi. 
During the last administration Secretary Babbitt came to 
Alabama and talked about the pristine beauty of the delta in 
Alabama and indicated he was going to do something about it and 
fund some type of project in south Alabama that would reclaim a 
delta there, and so you are going to have to come to south 
Alabama as well either to dispute what Secretary Babbitt told 
them, which I envisioned was a couple of billion dollars spent 
there, and publicity for the governor, who was also a Democrat, 
and Secretary Babbitt, or agree with him.
    So you have got to come back, or you have got to come to 
Alabama and look at that delta. I wouldn't want you to come 
down there and say Secretary Babbitt was wrong. I want you to 
come down there and say he is right, but I wish you would find 
the opportunity to come and to afford this administration the 
same exposure that was given by Secretary Babbitt in 
recognizing the beauty of our delta.

                          Maintenance Backlog

    As we go into other questions, and I don't have too many 
more, but one thing of interest that we have had in another 
rearing is backlogs, and, Mr. McDonald, what is your current 
maintenance backlog?
    Mr. McDonald. We do have some deferred maintenance. It is 
relatively small. I don't have a number off the top of my head. 
I could get it for the record if you would like. I think the 
point I would emphasize, however, is that we do not think we 
have any deferred maintenance that is in any way critical or 
represents a safety problem in any magnitude at all.
    Mr. Callahan. So you do not have a significant problem?
    Mr. McDonald. We do not. O&M has simply been our core 
priority for a number of years and we take care of that first.
    Mr. Callahan. Okay. Mr. Visclosky.
    Mr. Visclosky. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and following up on 
the chairman's immediate asked question, if you could also 
project what the backlog would look like with your budget 
proposal for the year 2002.
    Mr. McDonald. Relative to?
    Mr. Visclosky. The chair asked you for the current figure 
and if we could have a projected figure based on your budget 
for 2002. Would it be the same, less or more?
    Mr. McDonald. Okay. We will provide that for the record.
    [The information follows:]

                   Operations and Maintenance Backlog

    Mr. McDonald. For the FY 2000 Annual Financial Report, 
Reclamation reported only about $28 million in deferred 
maintenance. Deferred maintenance is identified in accordance 
with accounting standard 6 of the Federal Accounting Standards 
Advisory Board. Under Reclamation's processes to improve the 
reporting of deferred maintenance, a baseline for deferred 
maintenance is being developed during 2002. At this time, it is 
not yet clear what the changes in deferred maintenance will be 
in FY 2002. The improved reporting method itself could result 
in a change from the data reported in the FY 2000 Annual 
Financial Report.

                           Unfunded Projects

    Mr. Visclosky. Mr. McDonald, in your statement you indicate 
that growing demands from an aging infrastructure have 
compounded the need for technological upgrades, new science and 
technologies, and preventive maintenance to ensure reliability, 
increase output and improve safety of operations, and that the 
growth of rural water projects serving Indian reservations, 
where the Bureau of Reclamation funds operation and 
maintenance, has put substantial pressure on your overall 
budget.
    Madam Secretary, there is this 5 percent reduction, and we 
have talked about that already, to the tune of $32 million. 
That is a pretty generic figure. Could you give us an example 
of a program or an activity that is not going to get funded? I 
mean $31 million not being spent means somebody is not going to 
get funded. Who are those people? What are those projects?
    Secretary Norton. I think what we are seeing primarily is 
just a reduction and reallocation of funding for various 
projects. In looking at the list of projects that were funded 
last year, I don't see any that have been zeroed out this year. 
It is just a question of the changing allocation.
    Mr. Visclosky. If it were a question of being very 
parochial in northwest Indiana and I wasn't funded at the same 
level, I might find that pretty disquieting even though I 
wasn't zeroed out. If you could for the record enumerate which 
projects are going to not be funded at their current level, I 
would appreciate it.
    Secretary Norton. We would be happy to provide that. We 
have this comparison page, but we will be happy to provide you 
something in detail.
    [The information follows:]
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                     Central Valley Project Funding

    Mr. Visclosky. Appreciate it. And turning to the Central 
Valley Project, which we also talked about and there is a $13 
million cut there. Could we have an enumeration of projects 
that will not receive current funding because of that $13 
million?
    Secretary Norton. Yes, sir.
    [The information follows:]

           CENTRAL VALLEY PROJECT FUNDING COMPARISONS, FY 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                     FY 2001      FY 2002     Changes 01
             Project                 enacted      request       to 02
------------------------------------------------------------------------
American River Division..........       13,571       13,383        (188)
Auburn-Folsom South Unit.........        7,338        1,947      (5,391)
Delta Division...................       19,300       17,235      (2,065)
East Side Division...............        4,172        4,234          62
Friant Division..................        6,688        5,026      (1,662)
Miscellaneous Project Programs...       12,808       13,516         708
Replacements, Additions, and             7,997       11,000       3,003
 Extraordinary Maintenance.......
Sacramento River Division........       10,283        5,753      (4,530)
San Felipe Division..............          895          447        (448)
San Joaquin Division.............        2,602        1,280      (1,322)
Shasta Division..................       10,806        9,481      (1,325)
Trinity River Division...........       11,881       13,131       1,250
Water and Power Operations.......        7,372        8,222         850
West San Joaquin Division, San          12,804       11,152      (1,652)
 Luis Unit.......................
Yield Feasibility Investigation..        1,796        1,500        (296)
                                  --------------------------------------
      Total Central Valley             130,313      117,307     (13,006)
       Project Programs..........
------------------------------------------------------------------------

                            BUREAU PROGRAMS

    Mr. Visclosky. Okay. And I must tell you, having been on 
the subcommittee for a number of years, my perception and I 
guess my attitude towards the Bureau has somewhat been modified 
from when I came. Being from a State east of the Mississippi, I 
thought we had pretty much reclaimed the West from my 
perspective, and that as far as the operation and maintenance 
program, others might pick that up. Obviously that is not our 
business today, but I have come to appreciate the value of the 
programs that are operated by the Bureau and we find ourselves 
where we are today and they are your programs. And I am 
concerned, though, because whether it is quality of water or 
the generation of electricity or ecosystem restoration, these 
needs from my perspective are only increasing, and I would 
share the Chairman's concern, and again I understand your 
position here not just west of the Mississippi. You may have a 
lot of water but the question of where it is and where it is 
needed and the quality of that water are obviously questions of 
import.

                        Increased Cost of Water

    And I am concerned, to be honest with you, with the 
increasing importance of water and the increased cost of 
providing that water and moving it and restoring systems, that 
again we have a budget before us that has been reduced. I am 
all for efficiency, I am not tied to any specific dollar 
amount, but the fact is all I see every day as far as requests 
in the good programs is that people need more resources and 
under this budget proposal we are providing fewer.

                         Hydropower Facilities

    In talking about power generation, my understanding is the 
Bureau is the second largest producer of hydroelectric power 
and I am wondering, Madam Secretary, Mr. McDonald, if you care 
to address what the implications of your budget are as far as 
that power generation, equipment maintenance, upgrade 
efficiencies?
    Secretary Norton. We provide, I believe, 8 percent of the 
hydroelectric power for the United States. We have been going 
through an assessment of those capabilities and an examination 
of what might be done to enhance hydroelectric capabilities. 
That might include just upgrading the operation of the 
facilities, the turbines being rewound at the facilities, and 
things like that, so that rather than building new facilities, 
we might try to enhance the hydroelectric production from 
existing facilities. We are in the process of examining that 
type of information.
    Mr. McDonald. Congressman, what I would add to that is the 
budget, in our judgment, is quite adequate relative to our 
power plant operations, and I would also emphasize to the 
committee that much of the funding for our power plant is not 
part of our appropriated dollars. We have been authorized, for 
example, to receive funding directly from the Bonneville Power 
Administration. Somost of our power program you do not even see 
in your appropriated dollars. It is provided through direct funding 
mechanisms.

                         HYDROPOWER PRODUCTION

    Mr. Visclosky. And for the appropriated dollars it would be 
my anticipation from your testimony that we would not see any 
decline in the amount of power you produce based on the budget 
submission you made to us today for the next fiscal year?
    Secretary Norton. I think we have to look at the more 
relevant factor for the amount of hydroelectric production. 
That is the availability of water and, unfortunately, this year 
the lack of water is a much more significant contributor to the 
lack of ability to produce as much as we would like than any 
sort of funding issue.
    Mr. Visclosky. But it wouldn't be because of your 
instruction; it might be because of water but not because of 
your instruction and the budget?
    Mr. McDonald. Clearly not. The budget is quite sufficient. 
Indeed, Congressman, and if you would like us to document it 
for the record we will do so. We have substantially increased 
the megawatts of installed capacity in our plants over the last 
10 or 15 years with upgrades, rewinds and other technological 
improvements with the same 58 power plants that have always 
been there.
    Mr. Visclosky. Thank you.

                             POWER REVENUES

    Mr. Callahan. What about supply and demand? Your revenues 
received? Have your revenues experienced an increase because of 
supply and demand, because of the problem from California?
    Mr. McDonald. Relative to hydropower, Congressman?
    Mr. Callahan. Well, your power revenues.
    Mr. McDonald. Our power revenues have not increased. More 
technically, the power revenues flow to the Western Area Power 
Administration and the Bonneville Power Administration. They 
sell the surplus power not needed for project purposes at cost, 
as you well know, and in the long run they market such that 
some years they will have extra power, some years they will be 
short. In the context of the power market situation that we 
have all seen on the West Coast, both Western and Bonneville 
are on the losing end in the last several months because they 
have had to be on the spot market buying because we don't have 
enough water to run the system this year in the face of the 
drought. They have committed in their contracts to more power 
than we can generate, so they are out there competing in the 
marketplace.
    Mr. Callahan. Mr. Edwards.

                        TEXAS ENDANGERED SPECIES

    Mr. Edwards. Madam Secretary, I will be brief because I am 
not sure if this program comes out of this subcommittee or the 
Interior Subcommittee, but in regard to the issue of endangered 
species and encouraging public-private cooperation, I had added 
with Mr. Dicks' help last year $500,000 to the Fish and 
Wildlife Service's budget to help private ranchers in my 
central Texas district, next to the largest Army installation 
in the world, trap cowbirds in order to protect the endangered 
black capped vireo. In reading your testimony before the 
subcommittee I see that you are going to be pushing this 
public-private cooperative effort. I want to commend you for 
doing that, encourage you to do that. In this case Dave 
Fredericks with your Austin office, with the Fish and Wildlife 
Service, actually took over a situation where farmers and 
ranchers were ready to literally shoot Fish and Wildlife 
Service employees, a terrible situation going back to the 
proposal to put bells on the necks of ranch cats a few years 
ago to protect birds. And what happened? I actually attended a 
meeting where we had the Texas Farm Bureau and the 
Environmental Defense Fund, with leadership of the Fish and 
Wildlife Service coming together, Farm Bureau and Environmental 
Defense Fund, to support this conservation program. It is 
protecting endangered species and private property rights and 
operations at the largest Army installation in the world for 
our country. The problem was when we added money to that, only 
a $500,000 add-on, then the Department took the money out of 
that region's operating budget, and I hope somehow we can all 
work together to encourage these private-public cooperative 
efforts. I commend you for putting such an emphasis on that in 
your budget as well as in your statement today, and I hope we 
can work together to take, what I think has been a very 
successful model, and continue it in Texas and apply it to 
other parts of the country as well.
    Secretary Norton. This is exactly the kind of solution that 
we are working towards with the Landowner Incentive Program. 
That is the sort of solution we hope to find across the 
country.
    Mr. Edwards. Okay. I commend you for that. Thank you, Mr. 
Chairman.
    Mr. Callahan. Mr. Pastor.
    Mr. Pastor. I will submit questions for the record.

                   CLOSING STATEMENT BY MR. CALLAHAN

    Mr. Callahan. All members also may have preferably by the 
end of the day, questions to submit, which we would 
respectfully ask you for your immediate response to. Madam 
Secretary, obviously from the attitude of my colleagues' 
questions, you are still on your honeymoon, but Mr. McDonald is 
not. He has been married for a long time to your agency and if 
there were any real gripes, we would have allowed you to stay 
on your honeymoon and come after him. So obviously you know you 
are doing some right things and your agency is, and we want to 
help you. And as the allocations come down to this committee, I 
feel certain that we will be able to at least give you the 
reduction you are requesting. Thank you for coming.
    [Questions submitted for the record follow:]
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    [Clerks note: Following are the fiscal year 2002 Budget 
Justifications for the Appalachian Regional Commission]
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                                 INDEX

                              ----------                              

                         BUREAU OF RECLAMATION

                                                                   Page
Alabama, Reclamation Needs in....................................   597
Alabama Delta....................................................   600
Anadromous Fish Restoration Program--Central Valley Project......   618
Animas La-Plata Project........................................624, 635
Auburn Dam/Placer County Water Agency..........................584, 638
Billion Dollar BuRec Pin.........................................   600
Boise Area Projects..............................................   613
Bonneville Dam and Reservoir Enlargement.........................   659
Budget Justification for Bureau of Reclamation for FY 2002.......24-574
Budget Request, FY 2002.........................................23, 598
Bureau Programs..................................................   606
CALFED....................................................584, 586, 654
CALFED Funding...................................................   589
CALFED Record of Decision........................................   593
Callahan, Honorable Sonny--Opening Statement.....................     1
Callahan, Honorable Sonny--Closing Statement.....................   609
Calleguas Municipal Water District...............................   622
California Bay-Delta Restoration Program.......................631, 644
California Energy Crisis.........................................   653
Castroville Irrigation Water Supply Project......................   656
Central Arizona Project..........................................   622
Central Utah Project Budget, FY 2002............................23, 576
Central Utah Project Budget Justifications, FY 2002.............575-583
Central Valley Project Anadromous Fish Restoration Program.......   618
Central Valley Project Funding.................................606, 645
Central Valley Project Restoration Fund.........................18, 587
Central Valley Project, San Joaquin Division.....................   620
Central Valley Project, Miscellaneous Project Fish Screen 
  Programs.......................................................   642
Central Valley Project, RAX Program..............................   619
Central Valley Project, Sacramento River Division................   640
Columbia and Snake River ESA Implementation......................   613
Commissioner of Reclamation, New.................................   599
Dam Safety Program...............................................   645
Declining Reclamation Budgets..................................649, 651
Deschutes Project................................................   615
Doolittle, Honorable John--Statement.............................   584
Edwards, Honorable Chet--Statement...............................   593
Endangered Species Recovery Implementation................615, 623, 625
Federal Role in State Water Plans................................   593
Frelinghuysen, Honorable Rodney P.--Statement....................   586
Funding Levels for the Bureau of Reclamation..............629, 649, 651
Garrison Diversion Unit..........................................   627
Gila River Indian Legislation....................................   595
Gila River Indian Community......................................   623
Grand Valley Unit................................................   626
Hamilton City Pumping Plant......................................   640
Hydropower.....................................................607, 636
Increased Costs of Water.........................................   606
Justification, Budget for FY 2002................................24-574
Klamath River....................................................     2
Lake Tahoe Regional Wetlands Development.........................   621
Land and Water Conservation Fund.................................     3
Loan Program.....................................................   628
Lewis and Clark................................................610, 627
Long Beach Water Reclamation Project.............................   649
Maintenance Backlog..............................................   601
McDonald, J. William, Opening Remarks............................    12
McDonald, J. William, Prepared Statement.........................    14
Mission, Bureau of Reclamation...................................2, 649
Mni Wiconi Project...............................................   627
Northern Arizona Investigations Program..........................   624
North Sonoma County Agricultural Reuse...........................   650
Norton, Secretary Gale A., Opening Remarks.......................     2
Norton, Secretary Gale A., Prepared Statement....................     5
Ongoing Programs.................................................   615
Pastor, Honorable Ed, Statement..................................   594
Pima-Maricopa Project............................................   595
Phoenix Metropolitan Reclamation and Reuse Project...............   637
Placer County Water Agency.....................................616, 638
Platte River Recovery Implementation Program.....................   626
Policy and Administration Budget.................................   599
Priority of Reclamation Programs.................................   649
Projects Not Optimally Funded....................................   650
RAX Program, CVP.................................................   619
Reclamation, Challenges to.......................................    13
Reclamation Mission..............................................2, 649
Reclamation Needs in Alabama.....................................   597
Reclamation, Funding Levels for...........................629, 649, 651
Red Bluff Diversion Dam..........................................   620
Sacramento River Division, CVP.................................160, 640
Salinas Valley Water Reclamation Project.........................   656
Salton Sea Research Project....................................624, 655
San Joaquin Division, Central Valley Project.....................   620
San Luis Valley Project..........................................   626
San Luis Unit, West San Joaquin Division.........................   621
Shasta Dam.......................................................   631
Snake and Columbia River Dams..................................613, 664
Texas Endangered Species.........................................   608
Title XVI Water Recycling & Reuse Projects.......................   652
Tracy Fish Facilities Improvement Program........................   616
Unfunded Projects................................................   601
Unobligated Balances.............................................   611
Visclosky, Honorable Peter J., Opening Remarks...................   644
Water and Related Resources..........................598, 610, 619, 648
Water Conservation Program.......................................   611
Water Management & Conservation Program..........................   611
Water Needs in the East..........................................   597
Water Reclamation................................................   596
Western States Power Crisis......................................   647
West San Joaquin Division, San Luis Unit.........................   621
Yakima Project...................................................   116

                    APPALACHIAN REGIONAL COMMISSION

Access Roads.....................................................   680
Administration of ARC Projects...................................   673
Administrative and Other Costs...................................   680
Allocation Procedures............................................   668
Appalachian Development Highway System...........................   676
ARC, Administrative Expenses.....................................   686
ARC, Budget Summary by Program...................................   662
ARC, Development Programs........................................   662
ARC, Partnership Model...........................................   664
ARC, Entrepreneurship Initiative.................................   674
ARC, Structure...................................................   715
Appalachian Region Socioeconomic Trends..........................   693
Area Development Program.........................................   670
Distressed Counties..............................................   710
Dynamic Economy Goal.............................................   707
Education and Training Goal......................................   706
FY 2002 Budget Request, Summary..................................   660
General Statement and Summary....................................   661
Government Performance and Results Act.........................667, 675
Guiding Principles...............................................   667
Health Care Goal.................................................   709
Highway Program..................................................   663
Implications for Development.....................................   702
Leadership & Civil Capacity Goal.................................   707
Local Development Districts & Technical Assistance Programs....663, 681
Narrowing Socioeconomic Gaps.....................................   699
Net Migration of the Appalachian Region..........................   714
Occupational & Workforce Trends..................................   700
Per Capital Market Income--1998..................................   711
Physical Infrastructure Goal.....................................   706
Poverty Rates in the Appalachian Region, 1990....................   712
Progress & Challenges in Reducing Economic Distress..............   695
Regional Changes and Challenges..................................   694
Regional Initiatives.............................................   669
Salaries & Expenses............................................663, 685
Sample Projects by Goal Area.....................................   706
Sector-Based Entrepreneurial Development.........................   704
Strategic Challenges for Distressed Counties.....................   698
Strategic Responses to Widening Distress.........................   696
Strategies for Development.......................................   703
Strengths & Strategic Opportunities in Distressed Counties.......   697
Summary of FY 2002 Budget Request................................   660
Table of Contents................................................   659
Technical Assistance.............................................   683
Telecommunications & Information Technology Initiative...........   690
Unemployment Rates of the Appalachian Region--1999...............   713

                                
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