    [House Hearing, 106 Congress]
    [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

     THE AMERICAN BATTLE MONUMENTS COMMISSION AND THE WORLD WAR II MEMORIAL

    =======================================================================

                                    HEARING

                                   before the

                       SUBCOMMITTEE ON NATIONAL SECURITY,
                      VETERANS AFFAIRS, AND INTERNATIONAL
                                   RELATIONS

                                     of the

                                  COMMITTEE ON
                               GOVERNMENT REFORM

                            HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                           ONE HUNDRED SIXTH CONGRESS

                                 SECOND SESSION

                                   __________

                                  JUNE 6, 2000

                                   __________

                               Serial No. 106-214

                                   __________

           Printed for the use of the Committee on Government Reform

      Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.gpo.gov/congress/house
                          http://www.house.gov/reform

                                  -----------

                       U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
    71-730                     WASHINGTON : 2001

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                         COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM

                         DAN BURTON, Indiana, Chairman
    BENJAMIN A. GILMAN, New York         HENRY A. WAXMAN, California
    CONSTANCE A. MORELLA, Maryland       TOM LANTOS, California
    CHRISTOPHER SHAYS, Connecticut       ROBERT E. WISE, Jr., West Virginia
    ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida         MAJOR R. OWENS, New York
    JOHN M. McHUGH, New York             EDOLPHUS TOWNS, New York
    STEPHEN HORN, California             PAUL E. KANJORSKI, Pennsylvania
    JOHN L. MICA, Florida                PATSY T. MINK, Hawaii
    THOMAS M. DAVIS, Virginia            CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York
    DAVID M. McINTOSH, Indiana           ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, Washington,
    MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana                  DC
    JOE SCARBOROUGH, Florida             CHAKA FATTAH, Pennsylvania
    STEVEN C. LaTOURETTE, Ohio           ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland
    MARSHALL ``MARK'' SANFORD, South     DENNIS J. KUCINICH, Ohio
        Carolina                         ROD R. BLAGOJEVICH, Illinois
    BOB BARR, Georgia                    DANNY K. DAVIS, Illinois
    DAN MILLER, Florida                  JOHN F. TIERNEY, Massachusetts
    ASA HUTCHINSON, Arkansas             JIM TURNER, Texas
    LEE TERRY, Nebraska                  THOMAS H. ALLEN, Maine
    JUDY BIGGERT, Illinois               HAROLD E. FORD, Jr., Tennessee
    GREG WALDEN, Oregon                  JANICE D. SCHAKOWSKY, Illinois
    DOUG OSE, California                             ------
    PAUL RYAN, Wisconsin                 BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont
    HELEN CHENOWETH-HAGE, Idaho              (Independent)
    DAVID VITTER, Louisiana

                          Kevin Binger, Staff Director
                     Daniel R. Moll, Deputy Staff Director
               David A. Kass, Deputy Counsel and Parliamentarian
                        Lisa Smith Arafune, Chief Clerk
                     Phil Schiliro, Minority Staff Director
                                     ------

    Subcommittee on National Security, Veterans Affairs, and International
                                   Relations

                    CHRISTOPHER SHAYS, Connecticut, Chairman
    MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana              ROD R. BLAGOJEVICH, Illinois
    ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida         TOM LANTOS, California
    JOHN M. McHUGH, New York             ROBERT E. WISE, Jr., West Virginia
    JOHN L. MICA, Florida                JOHN F. TIERNEY, Massachusetts
    DAVID M. McINTOSH, Indiana           THOMAS H. ALLEN, Maine
    MARSHALL ``MARK'' SANFORD, South     EDOLPHUS TOWNS, New York
        Carolina                         BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont
    LEE TERRY, Nebraska                      (Independent)
    JUDY BIGGERT, Illinois               JANICE D. SCHAKOWSKY, Illinois
    HELEN CHENOWETH-HAGE, Idaho

                                   Ex Officio

    DAN BURTON, Indiana                  HENRY A. WAXMAN, California
                Lawrence J. Halloran, Staff Director and Counsel
                    Thomas Costa, Professional Staff Member
                               Jason Chung, Clerk
                          Jon Bouker, Minority Counsel

                                C O N T E N T S

                                  ----------
                                                                       Page
    Hearing held on June 6, 2000.....................................     1
    Statement of:
        Clark, David L., Director, Audit Oversight and Liaison,
          Accounting and Information Management Division, U.S.
          General Accounting Office; and Dennis Cullinan, director,
          legislative services, Veterans of Foreign Wars of the
          United States..............................................    40
        Dole, Robert J., former U.S. Senator and National Chairman,
          World War II Memorial Campaign.............................     9
        Herrling, Major General John P., USA (Ret), Secretary,
          American Battle Monuments Commission.......................    14
    Letters, statements, etc., submitted for the record by:
        Clark, David L., Director, Audit Oversight and Liaison,
          Accounting and Information Management Division, U.S.
          General Accounting Office, prepared statement of...........    43
        Cullinan, Dennis, director, legislative services, Veterans of
          Foreign Wars of the United States, prepared statement of...    50
        Herrling, Major General John P., USA (Ret), Secretary,
          American Battle Monuments Commission, prepared statement of    20
        Holmes Norton, Hon. Eleanor, a Delegate in Congress from
          Washington, DC, prepared statement of......................     5
        Mica, Hon. John L., a Representative in Congress from the
          State of Florida, prepared statement of....................     8
        Smith, Frederick W., co-chairman, National World War II
          Memorial Campaign, prepared statement of...................    16

     THE AMERICAN BATTLE MONUMENTS COMMISSION AND THE WORLD WAR II MEMORIAL

                                  ----------

                             TUESDAY, JUNE 6, 2000

                      House of Representatives,
           Subcommittee on National Security, Veterans
                  Affairs, and International Relations,
                                Committee on Government Reform,
                                                        Washington, DC.
        The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10 a.m., in
    room 2154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Christopher
    Shays (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
        Present: Representatives Shays, Mica, Terry, Biggert, and
    Norton.
        Staff present: Lawrence J. Halloran, staff director and
    counsel; R. Nicholas Palarino, senior policy advisor; Thomas
    Costa, professional staff member; Jason M. Chung, clerk; Jon
    Bouker and David Rapallo, minority counsels; and Earley Green,
    minority assistant clerk.
        Mr. Shays. Good morning. I would like to call this hearing
    to order.
        As the beneficiaries of past sacrifices, our duty as
    citizens is to remember, to mark for future generations, the
    milestones of our national honor.
        Fifty-six years ago today, Operation Overlord's D-Day,
    135,000 Allied troops began the historic amphibious invasion
    that would end the war in Europe. Today, in New Orleans, the
    National D-Day Museum opens to commemorate the courage and
    sacrifices of the 71,000 Americans who entered France that day.
    Let us pause to remember them.
        An important milestone has yet to be marked. No memorial
    stands to the 16 million Americans who served in World War II,
    the men and women who defined their generation with quiet
    heroism and redefined our still-young Nation as a global power.
        The Federal agency charged by Congress with the day-to-day
    duties of remembrance, the American Battle Monuments Commission
    [ABMC], has since 1993 moved the World War II Memorial from
    concept to construction. Today, we will hear how the Commission
    plans to complete this ambitious, noble enterprise. We will
    also discuss how the ABMC is performing its mission to preserve
    and maintain the hallowed ground around the world where U.S.
    servicemen and women rest.
        We are privileged to be joined this morning by former
    Senator Robert Dole, who serves as the National chairman of the
    World War II Memorial Campaign. A living testimonial to the
    fortitude and the self-effacing sense of duty that won the war,
    he and the American Battle Monuments Commission leadership have
    worked to overcome the financial, artistic and political
    challenges inherent to so ambitious an undertaking. Through
    their efforts, the World War II Memorial will take its place
    among the great monuments to freedom on the Mall.
        At this time, I would like to recognize Mrs. Biggert.
        Mrs. Biggert. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am honored to be
    at this hearing today. I think there is nothing more important
    than remembering the past and what happened in World War II, so
    that we will not let something like that happen in the future.
        Two weeks ago, we passed a congressional resolution to put
    the ``memorial'' back in Memorial Day, and certainly the World
    War II veterans, so many of them who made the ultimate
    sacrifice; and I think for generations to come when people come
    to Washington and visit the various memorials, the things that
    they remember and think about. So our future generations need
    to have that opportunity, because we need to remember what has
    happened in the past.
        I welcome you all here today.
        Mr. Shays. Thank you very much.
        We also welcome a full member of the committee,
    Representative Norton from DC.
        Ms. Norton. Thank you, very much. I appreciate your
    courtesy and that of your ranking member, Rod Blagojevich, for
    responding to my request to sit in on this very important
    hearing. I am certainly grateful to my friend, Marcy Kaptur,
    for her 10-year fight to erect a memorial to the veterans of
    the Great War, which preserved democracy and freedom in our
    time.
        Former Senator Bob Dole has my great respect not only for
    his 36 years in the Congress, but also for the time and effort
    that he is devoting to achieving a memorial to veterans, like
    himself, who served their country in the Great War of
    Liberation of the 20th century.
        I appreciate the response of the National Capital Planning
    Commission to my plea and that of Senator Bob Kerrey and others
    in requiring that the original huge design for the memorial be
    reworked to a more appropriate size. Senator Kerrey and I also
    opposed the present Rainbow pool site, the last remaining
    visionary vista left in this small compact city. If this is the
    last opportunity to effect any change--and I would hope that it
    is not--then I would feel compelled to support the memorial,
    but only because of the eternal gratitude and enduring respect
    I have and I believe the entire world owes to the men and women
    who served in World War II.
        However, I feel compelled to briefly lay out for the record
    what many Americans, like myself, regard as a Mall that is and
    should always remain sacrosanct from intrusions of any kind.
        One does not have to be a historical preservationist or a
    conservationist or an environmentalist or a fourth-generation
    Washingtonian--and I am all of the above--to believe that the
    last remaining visionary space on the Mall should never be
    interrupted by the hand of man, however heroic and deserving
    the purpose. The space between the Lincoln Memorial and the
    Washington Monument has always been close to sacred in
    nationally symbolic terms. Equally sacred to me, a child of
    World War II, and for millions throughout the world, is the
    sacrifice that Brokaw's ``Greatest Generation'' made for the
    Nation and the world.
        This memorial continues to have major flaws of design and
    placement. I support the present memorial only if it is the
    best we can do. However, I sincerely believe that a truly great
    memorial could be achieved just as prominently elsewhere with
    the artistry and imagination the extraordinary World War II
    generation richly deserves.
        I recently suggested the idea of a Mall preservation plan,
    which has since been approved, as a no-build zone by the Joint
    Memorials Task Force. All agree that a World War II Memorial
    belongs somewhere on the Mall with an appropriate design and in
    the right place. As one who knows this city inside out,
    however, I caution that the placement at the Rainbow Pool site
    would create a virtual nightmare tourist scenario. The memorial
    would front one of the busy, congested streets that receives
    traffic from several arteries and is often strangled with cars,
    especially at rush hour. To reach the memorial, there would be
    no transportation, no parking, and no public transit access
    without defacing the Mall.
        The Nation's Capital is a planned city, but it was not
    meant to be finished. Washington was meant to develop,
    especially because, given its small and compact size, the city
    loses its beauty if it simply spreads to open spaces. A
    monument of the unique significance of the World War II
    Memorial should grace, not invade its space. To try to improve
    on the uniquely wondrous space between the Lincoln Memorial and
    the Washington Monument is like trying to add something to a
    Picasso or a Michelangelo.
        I think of L'Enfant's celebrated plan creating our Capital
    in much the way I view the Constitution. Both the L'Enfant plan
    and the U.S. Constitution were created by men who, like the men
    and women of World War II, are in a class by themselves. I have
    learned to respect the Constitution by studying it as a
    constitutional scholar and lawyer. I have learned to respect
    the L'Enfant plan by living with it as a child and as a
    Congresswoman.
        We are not smarter than Madison, and we are not more
    brilliant than L'Enfant. We are not nearly as brave, wise, and
    deserving as the World War II veterans. We fall short of the
    ``greatest generation'' of the 20th century if this space and
    this design is the best this generation can do.
        I urge still more work, much deeper thought, and an effort
    fueled by the unparalleled magnificence of the achievement of
    the World War II veterans.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
        Mr. Shays. Thank you. Congressman Mica, do you have any
    statement?
        Mr. Mica. I don't have a formal statement. I will submit
    something for the record.
        I just want to commend you, Mr. Chairman, for holding this
    hearing on such a historic day on a topic that certainly needs
    the attention of this subcommittee and the Congress, and that
    is to commemorate the action of so many brave Americans,
    including my dad, who didn't die in battle but passed away as a
    result of his service to our country.
        And I am also pleased to welcome Bob Dole, a great American
    patriot, whom I admire, and I look forward to his statement and
    also to the testimony that we will have here today; and
    hopefully it will result in us accomplishing the goal that we
    all want to set forward and complete, and that is a memorial
    fitting to those who served this country in their great effort.
        Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I yield back the balance of my
    time.
        [The prepared statement of Hon. Eleanor Holmes Norton
    follows:]

    [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T1730.001

    [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T1730.002

        Mr. Shays. I ask unanimous consent that all members of the
    subcommittee be permitted to place an opening statement in the
    record and that the record remain open for 3 days for that
    purpose. Without objection, so ordered.
        [The prepared statement of Hon. John L. Mica follows:]

        [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T1730.003

        Mr. Shays. I ask further unanimous consent that all
    witnesses be permitted to include their written statements in
    the record; and without objection, so ordered.
        Our first panel the Honorable Robert J. Dole, chairman,
    World War II Memorial Campaign. I could call you Senator, but
    you told me the title you like the best is veteran.
        And Major General John P. Herrling, U.S.A. retired,
    Secretary, American Battle Monuments Commission, accompanied by
    Kenneth Pond, executive director from the Commission, as well
    as Jim Aylward, executive director, World War II Memorial
    Campaign.
        As is our custom, we swear in all of our witnesses, and I
    would ask all that I called to stand and be sworn in.
        [Witnesses sworn.]
        Mr. Shays. I note for the record that all of our witnesses
    and the accompanying witnesses have been sworn. Thank you.
        Senator Dole, you have the floor. It is wonderful to have
    you here.

     STATEMENT OF ROBERT J. DOLE, FORMER U.S. SENATOR AND NATIONAL
                CHAIRMAN, WORLD WAR II MEMORIAL CAMPAIGN

        Mr. Dole. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much; and I thank
    all of my former colleagues who are here this morning. Judy
    wasn't here when I was here, but thank you for being here.
        As Eleanor recalled, when I was here the last time was on
    prostate cancer. This is much more pleasant.
        This is an effort that we have been making for several
    years. And as has been pointed out, it was initiated by Marcy
    Kaptur, and it shows the power of a visit from a constituent,
    Roger Durbin, who said, why don't we have a World War II
    Memorial in Washington, DC? And she looked around and others
    looked around, and we couldn't find one. So she introduced
    legislation to authorize a World War II Memorial, and that was
    sort of the start of the entire progress, and here we are 13
    years later just about ready to say the money is in the bank or
    the money is pledged. And so it is a pleasure for me to be here
    to talk about the construction.
        Major General John Herrling, Secretary of the American
    Battle Monuments Commission, will address the overall mission
    of ABMC and talk about these wonderfully kept cemeteries around
    the world. I know that you have all visited some of the
    American cemeteries, and they are a sight to behold for their
    beauty, and they are obviously well kept.
        My co-chairman, Fred Smith, the CEO of Fed Ex, is unable to
    be here, but I understand that his statement will be
    summarized; and I request that it be inserted in the record in
    full. Fred Smith has a great record in Vietnam; and I remember
    going to ask him if he would help me, and I said that I need
    some help in corporate America. And without hesitation, he
    said, if you want me to do it, I will do it, because I think he
    had three uncles and other relatives in World War II; and he
    has been very, very helpful.
        We have had literally dozens and maybe hundreds of
    corporations and foundations and veterans groups and everybody
    you can think of help us. I was in Michigan yesterday with the
    Governor of the State. Governor Engler gave me a check for
    $653,000, a dollar for each person from Michigan who served in
    World War II, one of them, of course, former President Ford.
        We just left a ceremony on the Mall, and I know Eleanor
    said that there is some disagreement on the site. I didn't pick
    the site; I wasn't on the selection committee. I have just been
    doing the fundraising, and we were given a check this morning
    for $14.5 million from Wal-Mart. Each one of their 3,000 stores
    participated over a 6-month period; and when I went to bed last
    night it was $14 million. When I woke up this morning, it was
    $14.5 million. Had I overslept, we might have had enough to
    finish the memorial.
        It was a wonderful contribution, and Tom Coughlin and
    others at Wal-Mart certainly deserve our thanks. Over 1,900
    World War II veterans still work for Wal-Mart, and they were
    able to put the squeeze on the customers when they came in, and
    they did a great job.
        I accepted this challenge in March 1997 and someone said--
    as a matter of fact, I think it was Senator Bob Kerrey who
    said, ``Why are you running around with a tin cup? Why don't
    you come to Congress and we will appropriate the money?''
        Well, our view was that we ought to raise it in the private
    sector, and we ought to leave the money up here for veterans'
    needs. Present-day veterans who need help, and $100 million can
    help a lot of veterans.
        Why would I agree to take on this responsibility? I think I
    said on that morning, those of us who served during World War
    II, we didn't hear the call of history, we heard only the
    voices of friends, voices that sometimes could end in a moment
    in a place far, far from home, whether Europe, the Pacific or
    wherever you might be. I can hear them. I was in the 10th
    Mountain Division, and I never quite understand how I got in
    the 10th Mountain Division because I came from the plains of
    Kansas, but in those days if you were warm and walking you were
    a good prospect for second lieutenant, and I became a second
    lieutenant.
        But I remember hearing some of the voices, and we had some
    of the great skiers of America at that time in the 10th
    Mountain Division; and when the war ended, these young men
    fanned out across the country and kind of organized the
    American ski industry and sort of made it take off. Many of
    them were wounded or killed in Italy. So I could hear them as
    if it were yesterday. I can hear the voices. And I think it is
    almost frozen in time, because 56 years ago was D-Day, of
    course, and we think of some of the days that we shared and
    some of the experiences that we shared.
        But I have thought more about it, and I thought about it in
    this sense: We spend 55 years, 56 years; in another 55 years,
    there will be no one left who heard those voices, nobody came
    and talked about it. And we build this memorial to bear them
    witness and remind future generations that preserving freedom
    and liberty sometimes calls for great sacrifice.
        We throw the word ``hero'' around pretty easy in America,
    ``this person is a hero'' and ``that person is a hero.'' I
    think there is a distinction between heroes and celebrities. I
    think some of the great sports stars are great, but they are
    not heroes in my view; they are celebrities, and they deserve a
    lot of praise and whatever.
        But the heroes, as people on this committee know, are young
    men and women, or men and women of any age, who risked their
    lives--maybe in the District of Columbia, maybe in Kansas,
    maybe in uniform to save another life--and as a result of it,
    they may lose their life or spend their life with a lifetime of
    disability. And these are the heroes.
        And there were 400,000-some killed in World War II, there
    were over 6,000 killed 56 years ago in the beaches of Normandy,
    6,000 Americans in a 12-hour period on D-Day. World War II, of
    course, is really--this memorial is not just to those in
    uniform. We could not have prevailed in World War II had it not
    been for Rosie the Riveters and the people on the farms and the
    teachers and the preachers and the shopkeepers and those who
    provided the supplies and the equipment and machines and
    ammunition and all that we needed to be successful in the
    battlefield.
        I am not on the site committee, but I have thought a lot
    about it because I know good people can disagree. And I know
    this is sacred land between the Lincoln Memorial and the
    Washington Monument, but you know, there was no certainty that
    we were going to win World War II. And I remember, on D-Day,
    Eisenhower praying that he made the right decision to start the
    invasion on June 6, and then going off in his little tent and
    writing a four-sentence statement in longhand because he wasn't
    certain of victory, and this was to be handed to the press in
    case the landings failed.
        It went pretty much like this; I don't remember every word
    of it, but he said, ``Our mission has failed and I have
    withdrawn the troops. We acted upon the best advice available
    at the time from every source we had. The soldiers, the
    sailors, the airmen and the Marines, everyone involved that
    duty could call forth, if there is any responsibility for the
    failure, it is mine alone.''
        We talk a lot about leadership and different things. That
    says it all: ``if there is any responsibility for the failure,
    it is mine alone.'' And Eisenhower put that in his pocket and
    later threw it in the wastebasket, and somebody later retrieved
    it, and I now have a copy of it in my office which is one of my
    prouder possessions. But it demonstrates that had we not
    prevailed on D-Day 56 years ago, we could have lost the war.
    People don't think that would have happened, but it could have
    happened. Eisenhower wasn't certain, and he was the Supreme
    Commander, appointed by President Roosevelt.
        Had we failed, I am not certain who would be deciding what
    would be the Mall. It wouldn't be me or some site selection
    commission, it would be some foreign power telling us what we
    could do and when and how to do it.
        I can't think of any greater happening or event in the last
    100 years than the victory in World War II.
        We have become the greatest force in the world for peace
    because of World War II. We started integration in World War
    II, and all of the civil rights progress, in my view, is a
    direct result of what happened in World War II when they
    started integrating the troops as they should have a long time
    before. And you can look at the GI Bill of Rights, the 2
    million or more veterans, men and women who would not have been
    able to go to college, were able to afford to because of the GI
    Bill of Rights. This one law changed America for the better.
    Young men and women who couldn't go to college had this
    opportunity, and I was one of those. And because I had a
    disability, I had a recording machine to take to school, I had
    a left-handed typewriter, I had all of these advantages, I also
    had the best notes in class because I recorded, and I was very
    popular around final time. It changed America and I think it
    changed the world.
        So I am not going to argue about the site, if there are
    things that should be changed; and Eleanor and Bob Kerrey and
    others did make significant recommendations, and they were
    accepted, and I think it is a much better memorial now. We
    appreciate that.
        I went down to the site this morning and we collected this
    large check. We now have about $92 million, and we need a net
    of about $98.2 million. President Clinton has agreed to host a
    breakfast on June 29th for people from Hollywood and the TV
    industry, and they have not been particularly noteworthy to
    date. But hopefully on June 29th, they will be able to bring
    their checkbooks and that is one legitimate fundraiser we can
    have in the White House because this is for the World War II
    Memorial; and we will remind the movie industry that they have
    made millions and millions of dollars on World War II movies.
        I will just conclude by saying that we have raised--we got
    $5 million from the government for startup money. We will try
    to pay that back. We hope that the government might pay for the
    dedication and maybe the groundbreaking, but everything else--
    the design, the construction, and maintenance, which is going
    to be millions of dollars in the future--we are going to raise;
    and we hope to pay back the government the $5 million that they
    initially gave us for startup money.
        In March 1997, the American Battle Monuments Commission was
    completing the initial startup of the campaign, developing a
    strategy and recruiting a projects staff; and prior to March
    1997, they received less than $350,000 from private donors.
        I said the best thing that has happened to us is that Fred
    Smith has agreed to help us and we brought Jim Aylward on board
    from New Jersey on board. We have a great staff working night
    and day to make this happen. I want to mention also, and I
    think I did mention, Roger Durbin, and one other group that is
    the veterans group. I hosted a luncheon in 1997, and it was the
    DAV, the VFW, the American Legion, AmVets, you name it, they
    were all there; and the American Legion agreed to raise $3
    million, the VFW, $7.5 million, and they will make $5 million.
    They are behind us 100 percent.
        It took awhile for people to become aware of this memorial.
    And then a fellow named Tom Hanks, who was Captain Miller in
    ``Saving Private Ryan,'' Fred Smith and I had this big long
    list of things to tell him, and within 10 seconds he said,
    ``I'm your man. What do you want me to do,'' has made a number
    of public service announcements for us and raised the
    recognition. We have also had a little help from Mr. Spielberg,
    and I think he will be willing to help us more.
        So the awareness is out there. We think that we are making
    progress, and we think that we will make more progress. We
    think that we will have support from the Hollywood and TV
    community later this month and early in July.
        I think others appearing this morning can give you the
    details, but it takes money to get there, and we think we will
    have raised about $144 million and the cost is going to be $100
    million; and those details are available obviously.
        I will just finally say this: Another thing this whole
    project has done is alerted school children. I was out in St.
    Hugh's School in Greenbelt, MD, 2 months ago, where the
    students of grades 1 through 6, I think it was, had raised
    $1,300. And it was a Saturday afternoon, much like a town
    meeting that you all go to; and their parents and grandparents,
    who were World War II veterans, and these young children
    understood what the World War II Memorial was all about.
        A couple of weeks ago, Marcy Kaptur accepted a memorial
    gift of $3,800 from students at Dakota Hills Middle School in
    Egan, MN. So we have dozens and dozens of schools all across
    America who participated.
        We have been asked to raise money from sources other than
    the Federal Government. We are extremely pleased with the
    results of our fundraising efforts to date. It has been a
    struggle at times, but we are in the home stretch and not any
    time too soon.
        Let me close with one note. There is some urgency about
    this. We are losing 1,000 World War II veterans a day. We have
    lost over 1 million since March 1997 and that is going to
    compound as they get into their late 1970's and 1980's. This is
    not being built for those of us who served, it is being built
    to remind future generations of the sacrifice, but we would
    like to have a few people there for the dedication. I know
    Strom is going to be there, he has already asked for tickets,
    but there may be others who want to be there and we hope to
    finish it by the year 2002.
        Time is running out 16 million, now fewer than 6 million.
    We believe that we are going to make it.
        I want to thank the committee. I think this is very
    important that you take a look at what we have done and what we
    intend to do and that Congress--because you know there have
    been a couple of efforts. They were going to build a Liberty
    Wall in France, took a lot of money from veterans and nothing
    ever happened, it went in their pocket or went somewhere else.
    I think to have the American Battle Monuments Commission in
    charge and have Congress with an oversight authority, the
    American people are going to know that every dollar that went
    into this memorial was properly spent and that you ended up
    with a wonderful project and a wonderful memorial that is going
    to be dignified and it is going to, I think, be a place that
    will please most everybody in America.
        Thank you very much. I ask that my entire statement be made
    a part of the record.
        Mr. Shays. Thank you for your testimony.
        You stood up to be sworn in as a World War II veteran, and
    I would like to know if there are any other World War II
    veterans in this room, and I would like them to stand up. Would
    they please stand up?
        Mr. Shays. Gentlemen, can you tell us your names?
        Mr. Muckler. My name is Bob Muckler. I live in Crossville,
    TN.
        Mr. Shays. Where did you serve, sir?
        Mr. Muckler. The U.S. Navy, Pacific.
        Mr. Shays. Thank you, sir.
        Mr. Hanson. Dan Hanson from Tennessee. I served in
    Greenland in the Air Force.
        Mr. Shays. Thank you very much.
        Mr. Choper. Herman Choper, Boynton Beach, FL; and I served
    in Iceland.
        Mr. Shays. So the Tennessee guys served in Iceland; and
    Senator Dole, you got to serve in the mountains. Go figure.
        Gentlemen, thank you very much.
        I would just like to ask one more question. Is there anyone
    here who lost a family member, a cousin, a dad, a granddad? Is
    there anyone here who lost a family member?
        Can you tell us who?
        Mr. Hanson. My older brother was with Patton, and he was
    killed.
        Mr. Shays. What was his name?
        Mr. Hanson. Arthur Hanson.
        Mr. Dole. Can I mention one thing, Mr. Chairman? I had a
    man who was in his 50's come up to me yesterday in Michigan and
    say, ``You didn't mention orphans.'' You talk about widows, but
    his father went off to Europe and never came back and he was 1
    or 2 years old at the time. I said, ``You make a good point.''
        You think of all of these young men going over there
    single. Some left families behind, and certainly Congress over
    the years made certain that we provided for the widows and
    orphans. I omitted that from my remarks and so I think they are
    young men, fairly young men and women out there today whose
    fathers left and never came back. They are in their 50's now.
        Mr. Shays. I was at an event a few years ago with Candice
    Marino, and I was talking about the men and women who never
    came back and their families, and he told me that he lost his
    brother, and I had never known that. I marveled that I had
    never known than, and then he said his wife lost her brother,
    and there is just a whole group of Americans who lost their
    loved ones during this horrific war. You put the ball in play
    and we are going to invite Kenneth Pond and Jim Aylward as you
    give your testimony.
        Senator Dole, what have you done with that $14.5 million
    check?
        Mr. Dole. They gave me a great big one. It won't fit in my
    wallet.
        Mr. Shays. That is great news. Thank you very much.
        General Herrling. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With your
    permission, Frederick W. Smith would like his statement put in
    the record.
        Mr. Shays. It will be part of the record.

        STATEMENT OF MAJOR GENERAL JOHN P. HERRLING, USA (RET),
            SECRETARY, AMERICAN BATTLE MONUMENTS COMMISSION

        General Herrling. I will read Frederick W. Smith's short
    statement:

        Mr. Chairman and distinguished members of the subcommittee,
    I regret I am unable to appear before you with Senator Dole and
    General Herrling. However, I appreciate the opportunity to
    present comments on my experience as the Co-chairman of the
    National World War II Memorial Campaign.
        I have many friends and relatives who were involved in
    World War II. When Senator Dole asked me to take part in this
    campaign, all I could think of was my Uncle Bill, my Uncle Sam
    and my Uncle Arthur and my father, all of whom served in World
    War II, and what a shame it was that there wasn't an
    appropriate memorial to represent the tremendous sacrifices
    made by their generation, including the more than 400,000 young
    people who lost their lives.
        I cannot imagine what this country or, for that matter,
    what this world would have been like had Senator Dole and all
    others who served so nobly not prevailed. It was the most
    important event of the 20th century. This memorial will be a
    living educational forum to teach future generations the true
    costs of freedom and liberty.
        Fortunately, this has become America's campaign. In little
    more than 3 years we have begun closing in on our fundraising
    goal. As of April 30th and excluding today's Wal-Mart's
    donation, 192 corporations gave $29.6 million, including 13
    that donated $500,000 or more and 10 that have given at least a
    million. Seventy-four private foundations have contributed $9.2
    million. Twenty-seven States passed legislation to donate $1
    for each citizen who served in the Armed Forces during World
    War II, generating $9.9 million. The remaining 23 States and
    Puerto Rico have introduced similar legislation this year.
    Three hundred eighty-six thousand individual Americans
    contributed more than $30 million, $27 million in response to
    direct mail solicitations, $2.7 million from calls to our toll-
    free number and $1.2 million through our Web site. Major
    individual donors contributed another $1.8 million, including
    37 who contributed $10,000 and nine who have given at least a
    $100,000. Two hundred eighty schools also reported raising
    money. I am pleased that the schools in my hometown of Memphis
    lead this effort, having raised $10,344. Milwaukee High School
    in Oregon is a close second at $10,000 even. It goes without
    saying that we could not have accomplished so much without the
    unwavering support of this Nation's veterans, who are at the
    heart of this campaign. Overall, veterans' groups are raising
    millions of dollars through their internal campaigns, including
    the VFW, which committed $7.5 million, the American Legion, $3
    million. Another six organizations each gave a $100,000 or
    more, and thousands of World War II reunion groups across the
    country that have sent in contributions.
        Our success is due in large part to the public awareness
    generated by Tom Hanks's role as our national spokesperson, the
    History Channel's documentary watched by more than 2 million
    people, and the promotional and fundraising support of our
    cause-related marketing partners.
        We also have been helped by the aggressive efforts of more
    than 400 grass-roots volunteers and 60 community action
    councils, who solicit local businesses, organize fundraising
    activities, and plan special events in their communities. Many
    civic, fraternal and professional organizations, and numerous
    corporations are also developing campaigns in support of the
    memorial.
        At times, it's easy to get caught up in the day-to-day
    fundraising efforts and lose sight of our mission. We must
    never forget that we are here to pay tribute to those who did
    so much to ensure the freedom and prosperity we enjoy today.
    Thus, I am heartened that in addition to donations, the names
    of more than 400,000 Americans have been submitted for our
    World War II Registry of Remembrances that will honor those
    killed or missing in action, those who served in uniform, and
    those on the home front. There is no charge to enter your name
    on the registry.
        As you can see, we have received support across the
    country, from veterans to companies to classrooms. It is my
    hope that children who visit the memorial in the future will
    grasp the sense of sacrifice and accomplishment of the World
    War II generation and the tremendous pride our country showed
    for their achievement. I am proud to be a part of this effort
    to say thank you to what many have considered to be the
    'greatest generation' our country has produced.
        I thank the subcommittee for the opportunity to discuss my
    involvement in this long overdue project.

        Mr. Chairman, this concludes Frederick W. Smith's remarks.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Smith follows:]

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        Mr. Shays. We will now hear your remarks.
        General Herrling. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, members of the
    committee. On behalf of the Commissioners of the American
    Battle Monuments Commission, I am pleased to appear before you
    today, along with Senator Dole.
        As you know the American Battle Monuments Commission
    administers, operates and maintains 24 permanent memorial
    cemeteries and 27 monuments, memorials and markers in 15
    countries around the world.
        We have 8 World War I and 14 World War II cemeteries
    located in Europe, the Mediterranean, North Africa and the
    Philippines. In addition, we are responsible for American
    cemeteries in Mexico City and Panama. The maintenance of these
    facilities is labor intensive, so personnel costs amount to
    about 61 percent of our budget in fiscal year 2001.
        The remaining 39 percent is required to fund our
    engineering, maintenance, utilities, horticulture, equipment
    and administrative costs.
        We have now established an ABMC Web site which continues to
    grow in popularity. Through the Web our customers can access
    information on each of our memorial cemeteries, and the Korean
    War Veterans Memorial Honor Roll. We have recently brought on-
    line 172,000 names registered in the ABMC World War II cemetery
    data base, and 33,700 names registered in the World War I data
    base.
        During fiscal years 1998 and 1999, we conducted a
    comprehensive manpower review. The results indicated that a
    number of downgrades, and upgrades, and new position
    descriptions were needed. Based on the survey results, and with
    the concurrence of OMB, we implemented position downgrades and
    upgrades in May 1999.
        This year ABMC and OMB undertook a study to determine if
    technology, outsourcing and automation improvements could
    reduce the growing cost of foreign employment. The study
    indicated we could defer or offset manpower growth by better
    using technology, outsourcing and automation. We will now look
    at the best way to implement these labor-saving measures.
        During fiscal year 2001, we will begin an infrastructure
    modernization program. Our cemeteries range in age from 50 to
    70 years old. With the help of the Congress and the OMB over
    the last 3 years, we have made excellent progress in reducing
    our backlog of maintenance and engineering projects. We must
    now begin to examine the infrastructure of these aging
    facilities and develop a plan to modernize our outdated
    systems.
        With regard to fiscal responsibility, the U.S. General
    Accounting Office gave the ABMC an unqualified opinion on our
    financial audits for 1997 and 1998, and I am pleased to report
    our recently completed fiscal year 1999 audit also received an
    unqualified opinion.
        In 1993, Congress directed the American Battle Monuments
    Commission to establish the World War II Memorial. Senator Dole
    and Mr. Smith have each spoken of the success of our
    fundraising campaign. I would like to take this opportunity to
    highlight the equally positive support we have received from
    the Congress.
        In 1999, Congress approved several legislative items which
    support the memorial's fundraising efforts. Public Law 106-58,
    signed in September 1999, makes the American Battle Monuments
    Commission and the World War II Memorial Advisory Board
    eligible to use nonprofit standard mail rates for official mail
    sent to solicit funds to support the memorial. This legislation
    will save the campaign approximately $800,000 in postage, and
    was introduced by your committee colleague, Congressman John
    McHugh.
        Public Law 106-17 signed in November 1999 authorized the
    ABMC $65 million in borrowing authority to ensure the timely
    construction of the memorial and to comply with the
    requirements of the Commemorative Works Act. This authority and
    our cash holdings may be used as available funds for the
    construction and the 10 percent maintenance fee required to
    obtain a construction permit.
        The legislation also extended the authorization to build
    the memorial to December 31, 2005, and granted the ABMC
    permanent authority to solicit and receive funds for the
    memorial. These funds will be preserved in the American Battle
    Monuments Commission's interest-bearing Treasury accounts
    including any funds remaining after the completion of the
    memorial.
        This committee, as well as the authorizers in the Veterans'
    Affairs Committee and the appropriators from the House and
    Senate Appropriations Committees, provide us congressional
    oversight. The American Battle Monuments Commission World War
    II Memorial Trust Fund has been audited annually since 1993 by
    the General Accounting Office and an independent CPA firm. As
    noted above, we are proud of our unqualified opinions from
    these auditors in the last 3 years. In addition, our cost to
    raise the dollars is well within the standards established by
    the charitable oversight watchdog organizations, such as the
    National Charities Information Bureau and the Council of Better
    Business Bureaus.
        Since 1923, the ABMC's cemeteries and memorials have been
    held to a very high standard that reflects America's continuing
    commitment to its Honored War Dead, their families and to the
    U.S. national image. The Commission intends to continue to
    fulfill this sacred trust while seeking ways to improve our
    overall management and operational efficiency.
        Mr. Chairman, this concludes my statement, and I will be
    pleased to answer your questions.
        [The prepared statement of General Herrling follows:]

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        Mr. Shays. Thank you, General. I appreciate your being
    here, and appreciate Mr. Aylward and Mr. Pond being here.
        The bottom line is that our committee has oversight of the
    Defense Department, the State Department and other agencies,
    and one of them is the American Battle Monuments Commission. We
    are very pleased that we do have this responsibility. We are
    here to look both at the World War II Memorial Campaign and
    also what you are doing in general, so we will be kind of
    covering both areas.
        As it relates to the World War II Memorial Campaign, what
    has been the most difficult challenge that--first off, before I
    do that, tell me how you interface with the campaign. In other
    words, is there a separate organization that you interact with?
    Is it your staff that is used? How does that happen?
        General Herrling. Sir, back when I first got involved in
    this campaign in 1995, our Washington office had a very small
    staff of 13 people. So to organize and develop a program for
    the World War II Memorial, I had to put together a plan that
    would build the fundraising staff and also a committee that
    would take a look into the site and design of the memorial.
    Over a period of 18 months, we brought people on board for the
    fundraising effort; and then our site and design committee took
    a look at the specifics of site and design for the memorial.
    But it was not an outgrowth of our Washington staff of 13
    people, but a separate entity in itself in my office.
        Mr. Shays. How large is that organization?
        General Herrling. It is about 37 people today.
        Mr. Shays. Separate from the 13?
        General Herrling. Yes.
        Mr. Shays. What has been your biggest challenge as it
    relates to the memorial campaign?
        General Herrling. The biggest challenge, Mr. Chairman, was
    to develop a national program, a program that would reach all
    sectors of the country, and I think we have been very
    successful in doing that. But for awhile, for about 2 years,
    much of the American public was not aware that we were trying
    to build----
        Mr. Shays. What 2 years?
        General Herrling. I would say 1996 and into 1997.
        Then when we were able to get Senator Dole to be our
    fundraising chairman, it gave us a visibility that we had not
    had before. Then as you may know, that ``Saving Private Ryan,''
    part of it, was filmed in our cemetery in Normandy; so I wrote
    Tom Hanks and asked if he would be our spokesperson, and he
    indicated he would. I asked Senator Dole and Fred Smith to call
    him on the telephone and get that commitment.
        Mr. Shays. So your major challenges now are what?
        General Herrling. I am fairly confident that we will finish
    up our fundraising efforts by March of next year.
        The next major challenge this summer is to get our final
    approval from the two approving commissions in Washington, the
    Commission of Fine Arts and the National Capital Planning
    Commission. It is a three-phase approval process. You go in
    with a design concept initially--that was done in 1998--and
    then you have to bring in the preliminary design for their
    approval; and now this summer we hope to take the final design
    before those two approving Commissioners.
        Mr. Shays. Mr. Aylward, tell me, from your standpoint, what
    has been one of the most difficult challenges?
        Mr. Aylward. Mr. Chairman, I came on board about this time,
    July 1998; and it was fortuitous at that time that the design
    concept was approved in July 1998 because, quite frankly,
    people or contributors or potential contributors, be they
    corporations, foundations or individuals, whoever they may be,
    really want to know that something is going to happen. They
    want to see what this entity is, and they want to be
    comfortable with the fact that it is going to come to fruition.
        So the approvals by the Commission of Fine Arts and
    National Capital Planning Commission [NCPC] in July were very
    helpful. Then along came Tom Hanks and ``Saving Private Ryan.''
        The most difficult part for me has been the necessity to
    raise the money as quickly as we have had to; to bring about a
    campaign that has national awareness; and I think you have all
    been involved in the fundraising arena, so--you know, it is an
    extremely competitive environment, whether it be for a
    university, a health science center, a political endeavor, or
    in the religious community.
        In order to be competitive, you have to have recognition by
    the American public, and that was really accomplished through
    much of what the Tom Hanks ads were able to bring about.
        Then we had to reach out to the various constituencies. The
    veterans groups began to kick off their campaigns very
    aggressively, civic and fraternal organizations, the Knights of
    Columbus and others became involved, and slowly but surely it
    began to gain momentum and was now really a campaign across
    America.
        We did institute a very aggressive direct marketing
    campaign, and through direct mail.
        Mr. Shays. Let me touch on that in a second. But I make the
    assumption Mr. Pond, you're going to be here more to respond to
    the Commission's work in general; is that accurate?
        Mr. Pond. Yes, sir.
        Mr. Shays. The--maybe what--I would think the other
    extrodinarily difficult task you would have had is just, Mr.
    Aylward, the whole placement and design of this monument, I
    mean memorial. It's such a--you want it to be so perfect. And
    who is prepared to describe to me and to the committee the
    monument and the rationale behind it?
        Mr. Aylward. General.
        General Herrling. Mr. Chairman----
        Mr. Shays. We have a picture of it on the wall. We have
    obviously the model of it as well.
        General Herrling. The first step in the process is finding
    a site for the memorial. That was done in 1995. The National
    Park Service gave the Commission eight sites to look at. And
    they were in various locations around the city of Washington,
    and one was on the Columbia Circle, on the other end of the
    Memorial Bridge. But there were eight sites. And the site that
    was approved by the Department of the Interior, the Commission
    of Fine Arts, and the National Capital Planning Commission was
    the Rainbow Pool site, the site we have.
        Once you have the site, then it's a matter of developing a
    design. We went out on a nationwide open design competition,
    and in that competition we had over 400 entries. From those
    400, 6 were selected as finalists. Out of the six the winning
    design and the architect were selected.
        Mr. Shays. What are the principles--as I look at this
    memorial, it's certainly does seem in keeping with the existing
    site. I mean, you have a Reflecting Pool now and you'll have a
    Reflecting Pool afterwards. But what are some of the basic
    principles that went into this? What will people see when they
    go there?
        General Herrling. Two of the criteria that we were faced
    with was that it could not interfere with the vista from the
    Washington Monument to the Lincoln Memorial. That vista had to
    remain open.
        Mr. Shays. And you've been true to that.
        General Herrling. We've been true to that.
        Mr. Shays. But after that?
        General Herrling. Then you couldn't build anything that was
    higher than the existing elm trees, and those elm trees run
    between 65 and 70 feet high. So we've got two memorial arches,
    one on the north side of the memorial plaza and the other on
    the south, they're about 41 feet high from ground level. That
    was another criterion. Then there was an additional criterion
    as far as access for disabled.
        Mr. Shays. But what will people see when they go there? I
    see individual pillars. Do they have--do they commemorate?
        General Herrling. They do. The individual pillars--and
    there are 56 of them--represent each of the States during World
    War II and the 8 territories. At that time we had 48 States and
    8 territories. Each one of those pillars will have the name of
    the State or the territory on it. They represent two things:
    the individual strength of the States but also the idea of
    national unity, those States coming together and the people in
    those States coming together to fight World War II.
        On the north side of the memorial and on the south side
    you've got two identical memorial arches. As I said, they're 41
    feet high at street level. And inside those memorial arches
    there is a laurel wreath, a very large bronze laurel wreath
    that's being held up by four eagles. Those are to symbolize the
    victory won by World War II.
        On the western end of the memorial plaza, the closest to
    the Reflecting Pool, will be the Wall of Honor. There will be
    displayed a field of 4,000 gold stars, each star representing
    100 World War II dead, and there are about 406,000 who died. So
    there will be 4,000-odd stars on the wall. Then there will be
    some type of light of freedom that will come forth from a
    broken plane. The broken plane will symbolize the upheaval that
    was caused worldwide by World War II, the upheaval of the
    entire globe. And out of that upheaval will come this light or
    torch, the torch of freedom or light of hope over darkness.
        Now, the exact location of that symbolic torch has not been
    finalized yet. It may be against the western wall or it may end
    up being put in the center of the Rainbow Pool. That hasn't
    been decided.
        Mr. Shays. Thank you. Mrs. Biggert.
        Mrs. Biggert. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It seems almost
    incredulous to me that this hasn't been done before. When did
    this start? Have there been proposals in the past? I notice,
    like 1993 seems to be when it started to gain momentum. Is that
    correct?
        General Herrling. Mrs. Biggert I don't know if there was
    any serious consideration to constructing a World War II
    Memorial back shortly after the war. I think everybody assumed,
    or many assumed that the Iwo Jima Memorial, which represents
    the Marine Corps, was the National World War II Memorial. Of
    course it's not. It represents one service and one particular
    battle. But it was Roger Durbin, as Senator Dole said, who came
    to Congresswoman Marcy Kaptur and said why don't we have a
    National World War II Memorial. Now he did that in 1988, and it
    took 5 years to get the legislation approved in 1993.
        Mrs. Biggert. For the amount of money to be spent to build
    this, will there also be a fund for the maintenance? Is that
    part of this?
        General Herrling. It is part of it. One of the requirements
    of the Commemorative Works Act is that in addition to the cost
    of construction, we have to provide the National Park Service
    10 percent of the construction cost for maintenance of the
    memorial in perpetuity. So if the memorial is going to cost
    $70,000 we would have to add $7,000 for the maintenance cost.
    And that is figured into the overall cost of the memorial.
        Mrs. Biggert. Is that something, then, that's kept in a
    trust fund for interest, or how does that work?
        General Herrling. I'm not sure. The money is turned over to
    the National Park Service and they have an account that they
    can draw on for that purpose.
        Mrs. Biggert. I guess part of what you're doing, too, is
    then the looking after the cemeteries and the monuments that
    have already been built. What kind of maintenance problems have
    you encountered with those cemeteries and monuments?
        General Herrling. As I mentioned earlier, those facilities
    are anywhere from 50 to 70 years old. The sort of problems we
    deal with are structural, electrical, and primarily mechanical.
    But then you get into systems like heating and air
    conditioning, roofs, irrigation systems, and there's just a lot
    of other facets. So it's a very maintenance-intense endeavor.
        Mrs. Biggert. But there has been a backlog of maintenance
    problems that--will this come out of the same funds that you're
    raising, or is this----
        General Herrling. No, totally different funds. The American
    Battle Monuments Commission has a separate appropriation and
    the World War II Memorial is totally different. All those
    donations are kept in a separate Treasury account.
        Mrs. Biggert. Do people donate for the cemeteries and
    monuments or is that just an appropriation from----
        General Herrling. That's just an appropriation.
        Mrs. Biggert. You haven't done any fundraising on that.
        General Herrling. Not at all.
        Mrs. Biggert. When Ms. Norton was questioning the
    placement, it seemed to be that the biggest thing is the sight
    from the entire Mall down to the memorial. But it seems like
    you've really taken care of that. What other problems are there
    with building it where it is?
        General Herrling. Well, it's located, Mrs. Biggert, on a
    hundred year floodplain, so there are some problems with the
    construction, the foundation of it and things like that; but so
    is the FDR Memorial and so is the Lincoln Memorial. They're not
    architectural or construction problems that can't be overcome.
        I would tell you, though, that when we took the initial
    design concept before both those commissions in 1997, they
    approved the site. The Commission of Fine Arts approved the
    site unanimously, the National Capital Planning Commission
    approved it 9 to 2. But they turned down the design. They
    thought it was too large in scale for that part of the Mall.
    They sent us back and they said we want you to scale it down,
    and we'd like it to fit more easily into that particular area,
    in that environment on the Mall. We had to go back and almost
    completely reengineer much of the design. And then when we took
    it back in 1998 they approved the design concept.
        Mrs. Biggert. So do you--what other steps for approval do
    you have to take before--before you break ground?
        General Herrling. The last step hopefully will take place
    later this summer when we go before the Commission of Fine Arts
    and the National Capital Planning Commission for our final
    design approval. With the final design approval and the money
    necessary for the construction, we'll be given a permit to go
    ahead and have ground breaking.
        Mrs. Biggert. Have you a total dollar amount?
        General Herrling. The current estimate is that the memorial
    design, construction, and maintenance and dedication will come
    to about $98.2 million.
        Mrs. Biggert. Current.
        General Herrling. That could change because we're currently
    in the process of going from design documents to construction
    documents. The construction documents will be turned over to a
    contractor who will give us a much more precise construction
    cost.
        Mrs. Biggert. Is there Dutch elm disease in Washington?
        General Herrling. Is there? Yes, I think some of those
    trees on the Mall do suffer from that.
        Mrs. Biggert. It's a beautiful concept, the way it is now.
    I would hate to lose--the trees be gone.
        General Herrling. Well, we changed the design at one point.
    We downsized the Rainbow Pool by 15 percent. One of the reasons
    was to save some of those elm trees so we wouldn't get into the
    root systems. The other reason was so it more architecturally
    fit the overall geometry of the Mall.
        Mrs. Biggert. Well it's beautiful. Thank you. Thank you,
    Mr. Chairman.
        Mr. Shays. My colleague.
        Mr. Terry. Good morning Mr. Chairman. Sorry I missed the
    first part of the hearing but Midwest Express pilots didn't
    want to fly faster, contrary to my encouragement.
        I just want to make a couple of comments and one question.
    First of all I want to congratulate you on not only your
    dedication to the cause of the memorial but also on the efforts
    of making it a reality. Like you had said, the major component
    of making it a reality is the fundraising. From your speech or
    your handout, you raised 88--or you used the phrase ``netted
    88.''
        Mr. Aylward. We netted $88 million.
        Mr. Terry. About $10 to $12 million shy of hitting the goal
    and----
        Mr. Aylward. That's correct. That was as of the end of
    April.
        Mr. Terry. The word that stood out to me was ``netted.'' So
    I assume with the small and efficient productive staff you
    have, we aren't owing salaries and some of the stuff that some
    charitable organizations--I don't want to call them gimmicks,
    it's just normal course to make it look good. So ``netted'' to
    me is a term of art. That's pretty impressive if you've netted
    $88 million.
        Mr. Aylward. That's correct. We have maintained, and I
    think General Herrling alluded to it before, that the American
    Battle Monuments Commission was a small 13-member organization
    here in Washington. So basically what we had to build was a
    full fundraising staff. Currently our fundraising expenses are
    running about 26 percent of funds raised----
        Mr. Terry. That's not bad.
        Mr. Aylward [continuing]. 23 percent of all revenue income.
    And that includes some initial startup moneys from the
    Department of Defense and our interest income. And we are keep
    driving the percentage down. Year after year, we have driven
    that down from the 40 percentile mark in the initial stages,
    down to about 26 percent at this point in time.
        Mr. Terry. That's impressive. I appreciate that. Keep that
    trend going. That will be helpful.
        Mr. Aylward. As long-time fundraisers--I'm uniquely aware
    of the costs of raising $1 and its importance to the
    contributor.
        Mr. Terry. Your expertise is much appreciated, GAO giving
    you glowing reports on how you've handled it. That's much
    appreciated. Some little things of internal-type management
    information systems, I assume all that's--I don't want to call
    them minimal--requests have been taken care of, I assume.
        General Herrling. I think overall.
        Mr. Terry. I take the nod of your head as a yes.
        General Herrling. Overall our GAO reports have been very
    good. There have been some minor discrepancies they found and
    we've corrected those and we're moving on. But basically we had
    three unqualified opinions and I don't think that GAO has found
    one problem with our World War II Memorial fundraising.
        Mr. Terry. Which is a real accomplishment and you should be
    congratulated on that. I've read some of the other GAO reports
    for other entities that weren't as glowing. To read one as
    positive as this is impressive.
        Last question, real quickly. I did get pulled aside at one
    of the Memorial Day events by a Vietnam veteran, I didn't
    exactly know what he was talking about, but he was somewhat
    critical of this. Is there an undercurrent in some of the
    veteran committees that are critical of this? I have never
    heard of any criticism until the Vietnam vet mentioned
    something. It wasn't real specific.
        General Herrling. Addressing Vietnam vets particularly,
    there may be a few that have a particular feeling against this
    memorial, but I would tell you that the Vietnam Veterans
    Foundation donated $25,000 to us. So I think most of the
    Vietnam veterans are in support of this program. I would say
    that most veterans in the country, the veterans' organizations,
    have raised $10 million and will raise more. And they do that
    internally through their own programs. But we have had
    tremendous support from veterans' organizations. And we have
    tried to keep them involved in the design of the memorial.
        Mr. Aylward. We get tremendous communication from veterans
    and the World War II generation through letters, through e-mail
    and other mechanisms. They call us quite often to touch base
    with us.
        Mr. Shays. Mr. Pond, did you have something you wanted to
    say on this--because I will get to you.
        Mr. Pond. Mr. Chairman, I would go back to your original
    question, since you aksed what was the most difficult task, and
    I would like to address that. When Congress gave us the mission
    to raise $100 million and to build a memorial, the raising of
    funds was a foreign task to our small government agency. We sat
    with the secretary and executive director our 11 staffers and a
    huge mission and 11 Presidential appointees who are great
    Americans who gave us policy guidance. We all placed our
    concentration on this because, as the committee knows, there
    had been other people who--and Senator Dole alluded to it--had
    raised money and squandered it. We had the task not only to
    raise the money but to guard that money as Americans' dollars
    and to build a good memorial.
        It caused us to concentrate in one area so heavily that on
    occasion we had to remind ourselves that we had 350 employees,
    in 12 countries, running 24 of the most magnificent cemeteries
    in the world. We are fortunate that if we ever slacked off in
    that regard, about 96 percent of our U.S. employees are retired
    members of the Armed Forces of the United States who work daily
    with their head as well as their heart. So we hope that we did
    not slip, but if we did, I can assure you that they picked up
    the gap.
        The most difficult thing for us was to remember those folks
    that are doing that fantastic job in the field as well as the
    job that we had to do here. And I might say that Mr. Aylward,
    Senator Dole, Mr. Smith, Tom Hanks, and all of those who have
    come forward to help the American Battle Monuments Commission
    have just done a magnificent job.
        Mr. Shays. Let me ask about the fundraising, not to be--I
    would be derelict in our duty if we didn't pursue the 26
    percent a little better. First off, I'm unclear as to how much
    money actually sits in the bank. Where has it been used?
        Mr. Aylward. About $50 million, sir.
        Mr. Shays. Of the $100 million that you hope to raise, are
    you basically saying that $25 million of it will be used--will
    have been used to raise money and we will have $75 million, or
    are you saying----
        Mr. Aylward. No, we're saying it will cost us about $139
    million overall to raise the $100 million. And that will be
    able to maintain the office or the World War II endeavor out
    through approximately the early spring of 2003.
        Mr. Shays. Mr. Aylward, your staff is about 33 people,
    total.
        Mr. Aylward. We have about 33 people.
        Mr. Shays. So the total cost of running that staff plus
    doing all the--some are actually involved in the fundraising
    effort--all of that is included in the $139 million.
        Mr. Aylward. It's all included in the $139; public
    relations, everything. But the staffing will go down. We've
    already started an exit strategy based on the fact that we're
    closing in on our goal.
        Mr. Shays. The $139 million--of the $139 million, how much
    have you raised? When we're looking at that $100 million, I
    would say you have $14\1/2\ million today, let's call it a day.
        Mr. Aylward. With Wal-Mart today, we have raised $122.1
    million, so we have about $17 million to go.
        Mr. Shays. $122 what?
        Mr. Aylward. $122.1 million.
        Mr. Shays. And you're going to be raising about $139.
        Mr. Aylward. $139.6 million. That $139 million may come
    down. This is a fluid projection of the budget and we are
    continuing to reevaluate whether we can reduce costs, for
    example, a direct mail letter in a certain month or another
    program that would save us substantial funds.
        Mr. Shays. Now people can be following this hearing right
    now on the Internet. On the Internet right now, people can be
    following this hearing.
        Mr. Aylward. Yes.
        Mr. Shays. How would someone make a contribution on the
    Internet?
        Mr. Aylward. There's two ways. They can make it directly
    right into the Treasury, just like you would do through a
    credit card number or an account number, or many people
    download the form and send it in to us. So about 60 percent of
    our Internet----
        Mr. Shays. So what's your Web site and how do people, if
    they wanted to make a contribution right now, take advantage of
    this?
        Mr. Aylward. They could call our 1-800 number, 1-800 639-
    4WW2.
        General Herrling. And the Internet site.
        Mr. Shays. The 800 number is passe right now. We want to
    get to--if you want to say the 800 No. 1 more time, but then
    let's get to the something more. What's the 800 number site
    again?
        Mr. Aylward. The 1-800 number? 1-800-639-4WW2.
        Mr. Shays. OK. And your Web site?
        General Herrling. The Web site is www.WWIImemorial.com.
        Mr. Shays. You want to give it one more time?
        General Herrling. www.WWIImemorial.com.
        Mr. Shays. Someone can just get into the system and make a
    contribution using their credit card.
        General Herrling. As Mr. Aylward said, a lot of people
    bring up the form on the Internet site and just download it and
    print the form out and send it in.
        Mr. Shays. So if they don't want to use a credit card and
    do that, they can do that.
        General Herrling. That's correct.
        Mr. Shays. Let me--just before we go to our next panel,
    just talk to me briefly about the overall task that you have
    with your 13 staff members who have a budget of about $28--you
    requested $28 million for next year; is that correct?
        General Herrling. Our request was $26.2 million.
        Mr. Shays. That enables you to take care of all these sites
    around the world. I was intrigued to know you had a site in
    Mexico City.
        General Herrling. That site, Mr. Chairman, goes back to
    1847 in our war with Mexico. There are 750 U.S. soldiers buried
    there.
        Mr. Shays. Now just refresh me on my American history. That
    is celebrating, from the Mexican standpoint, what?
        General Herrling. I'm----
        Mr. Shays. In other words, I understand we have soldiers
    buried in Europe, and they gladly donated this land in
    gratitude to the men and women who gave their lives defending
    freedom in Europe. The sites in Panama and the site in Mexico
    City commemorates what from the standpoints of the host
    country?
        General Herrling. I don't know that it commemorates--it has
    the same meaning that we attach to it. But those governments
    provided us with the space and gave us that ground in
    perpetuity for those cemeteries.
        Mr. Shays. I find that intriguing really. And we have
    visitors that visit these sites both from the United States and
    within the indigenous countries?
        General Herrling. Yes, we do. In fact, I'm not talking
    specifically about Mexico City or Panama, but in our 24
    cemeteries around the world the visitors last year were about
    10\1/2\ million people.
        Mr. Shays. Through all the sites.
        General Herrling. Through all the cemeteries.
        Mr. Shays. How has the Commission addressed the problems
    that GAO noted concerning its internal controls over
    information technology systems? In other words, you got a good
    audit but with some reservations.
        General Herrling. Yes, and those reservations are called
    material weaknesses. They had to do with a lack of user
    documentation in the four offices we have around the world. The
    systems didn't have an automatic lockout procedure to prevent
    people from getting into that data. There was an inadequate
    continuity plan and inadequate storage procedures. But most of
    those have been corrected. Now what few items remain open are
    only to a reportable condition. So we've taken a very serious
    step to eliminating what the GAO had pointed out to us back in
    1997 and 1998.
        Mr. Shays. Is there anything that any of you, three of you,
    would like to say before we get on to our next panel?
        General Herrling. Sir, I would just say, like Mr. Pond, I
    think it's unprecedented in some regard that a Federal agency
    the size of ours, was given the task of raising $100 million
    and building this memorial. It's a task that we've really taken
    on with vigor. But I don't think any other Federal agency has
    ever been asked to raise $100 million. That's something we've
    done and we've enjoyed and we've learned a lot by it, but I
    wouldn't want to be asked to do it again.
        Mr. Shays. Again, Mr. Pond, Mr. Aylward, any comments, any
    questions we should have asked you that you would like to ask
    yourself?
        Mr. Pond. I would only say, Mr. Chairman, that we ask you
    and all of your colleagues, when you travel on your trips
    throughout the world--we have passed to you our annual report
    and it shows exactly where all of our cemeteries are located--
    we would be deeply honored if you would take time out of your
    schedule when you're in those foreign countries to visit our
    cemeteries.
        Mr. Shays. Thank you very much. Thank you gentlemen.
    Appreciate you being here. Appreciate your work.
        I now invite David Clark, Director, Audit Oversight and
    Liaison Accounting and Information Management Division, U.S.
    General Accounting Office, and Dennis Cullinan, director,
    legislative services, Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United
    States--ask you both to stand because I'll be swearing you in.
        [Witnesses sworn.]
        Mr. Shays. Thank you gentlemen. I appreciate your patience
    in waiting for this panel to be called and thank you, Mr.
    Clark, for coming here. Sometimes we isolate GAO as a separate
    panel, but happy to have representative from Veterans of
    Foreign Wars here as well, and to say in a sense you speak for
    all your fellow veterans and other veterans groups. I think
    they are down in New Orleans commemorating the D-Day invasion
    and the monument there. So we thank you. You're doing double
    duty Mr. Cullinan.
        Mr. Clark, we'll let you start.

      STATEMENTS OF DAVID L. CLARK, DIRECTOR, AUDIT OVERSIGHT AND
     LIAISON, ACCOUNTING AND INFORMATION MANAGEMENT DIVISION, U.S.
       GENERAL ACCOUNTING OFFICE; AND DENNIS CULLINAN, DIRECTOR,
     LEGISLATIVE SERVICES, VETERANS OF FOREIGN WARS OF THE UNITED
                                 STATES

        Mr. Clark. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It's both an honor and
    a pleasure to be here. It's an honor to be in the company of
    Senator Dole, General Herrling and the others in this room who
    have worked hard to commemorate the services of American Armed
    Forces and to help establish a World War II Memorial.
        And it's a pleasure to be here for two reasons. First, I've
    testified before this subcommittee before on the subject of
    accountability. A couple years ago I was here to talk about
    strengthening the accountability over Employee Retirement
    Income Security, that act, and employee benefit plans. In fact
    you may recall, Mr. Chairman, I was on a panel and you asked us
    to come up and sit up with you while you asked questions of
    another panel, which was an interesting and rather exhilarating
    experience, I might add.
        Mr. Shays. We only did it once.
        Mr. Clark. Darn.
        Second, I'm pleased to be here because, as Mr. Terry I
    think pointed out real well, we have a positive story to tell.
    And for those who are familiar with GAO testimony, that's not
    always the case. So it's nice to be able to do that every now
    and then.
        GAO first began auditing ABMC in 1983 when Congress created
    the World War II fund. At that time, ABMC did not prepare
    agency-wide financial statements, and the law required only
    that we audit the revenue and expenditures of the memorial
    fund. In fiscal year 1997, ABMC began preparing agency-wide
    statements and we began auditing them. We strongly supported
    the legislation requiring ABMC to prepare the statements and we
    commend ABMC for both their efforts in preparing the statements
    and their cooperation in responding to our audits.
        Agency-wide financial audits are vitally important in
    ensuring accountability, principally because they determine the
    reliability of financial information reported, provide
    information on the adequacy of systems and controls used to
    ensure accurate financial reports, safeguard assets and report
    on agencies' compliance with laws and regulations.
        As has been discussed this morning, ABMC has successfully
    prepared financial statements for each of the past 3 fiscal
    years and we have given ABMC an unqualified or clean opinion on
    their statements for each of those years.
        Importantly, ABMC statements now provide a separate column
    or counting for the World War II fund, which is critical given
    the importance of the fund and the fact that the fund now
    comprises the majority of ABMC financing sources and assets.
        Specifically, we have reported that ABMC's financial
    statements are reliable in all material respects, internal
    controls over financial reporting are effective, and that we
    found no reportable instances of noncompliance with the
    selected provisions of laws and regulations we tested.
        I want to stress that ABMC has promptly and effectively
    responded to all of our audits and has resolved virtually all
    of the issues and concerns we have raised. For example, in
    response to our audits, ABMC has strengthened its controls over
    cash, developed and implemented effective policies regarding
    the recording of accounts payable as other accruals, and better
    segregated duties among its staff to better strengthen its
    controls over goods purchased.
        ABMC is also in the midst of acquiring a new integrated
    accounting system, which when implemented should substantially
    resolve the few issues that remain outstanding. For example,
    the new system will provide more comprehensive controls over
    passwords and internal access to ABMC's accounting and
    disbursing systems. The ABMC has approached this issue with the
    utmost care and thoroughness and plans to have a new system in
    place by next year.
        Before I close, I think it's important to put ABMC's
    financial accountability in context. Preparing financial
    statements with a clean audit opinion is not a small feat.
    Unlike ABMC, many Federal departments and agencies today still
    cannot produce reliable financial statements, continuing to be
    plagued by significant financial management weaknesses,
    problems with fundamental recordkeeping and financial
    reporting, incomplete documentation and weak internal control,
    including computer controls.
        ABMC, on the other hand, after being in business
    successfully for nearly 75 years without agency-wide
    statements, and with almost no advance notice, had to quickly
    document, develop, and implement new accounting policies,
    procedures and systems, and to develop financial statements
    almost from scratch. They had to do that at the same time, I
    might point out, while subjecting itself to a comprehensive
    audit from us. The agency not only did this and did it well,
    but in a sense has become a model for other Federal agencies
    through a number of accomplishments, not the least of which is
    complying early with difficult new accounting standards
    requiring the computation and reporting of deferred
    maintenance.
        We believe that ABMC should be commended for its efforts,
    its progress and its accomplishments in this regard. That
    concludes my summary statement.
        Mr. Shays. Thank you, Mr. Clark.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Clark follows:]

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        Mr. Shays. Mr. Cullinan.
        Mr. Cullinan. Thank you very much.
        Mr. Shays. How do you say your name properly?
        Mr. Cullinan. Cullinan.
        Mr. Shays. Cullinan.
        Mr. Cullinan. It's just like Culligan but Cullinan.
        Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, members of the
    committee. Before beginning, I must say in this particular
    instance it is indeed a pleasure to be sitting at the same
    table as a representative of the General Accounting Office.
        Mr. Shays. So noted.
        Mr. Cullinan. It's not often that I would say that.
        Mr. Clark. It won't work, but go ahead.
        Mr. Cullinan. I am pleased to be here today representing
    the men and women of Veterans of Foreign Wars and our Ladies
    Auxiliary and, in fact, all of America's veterans, to voice our
    steadfast support on behalf of the National World War II
    Memorial. The VFW recognizes the importance of supporting the
    World War II Memorial both morally and philosophically. As you
    know, more than 400,000 Americans lost their lives during World
    War II. An additional 672,000 were wounded. It was a time of
    great sacrifice for this country but also a time when our
    veterans displayed tremendous valor, commitment and vision, and
    helped firmly establish the United States as a world power.
        The VFW, which includes close to 1 million World War II
    veterans among its membership, believes that this well-deserved
    and long-overdue recognition of veterans will not only honor
    the spirit of those who served but also pay homage to the
    legacy of an entire generation of Americans who lived during
    World War II.
        At this juncture, I would express our special thanks,
    especially on behalf of our men and women from the great State
    of Ohio, to Congresswoman Marcy Kaptur for having taken the
    lead in this instance. The VFW is so committed to seeing the
    World War II Memorial become a reality that a grassroots
    membership including Vietnam veterans has already raised over 3
    million for this noble purpose. Within a year we are nearly
    half way to meeting our goal of $7.5 million, making us the
    second largest single contributor and first among all veterans
    service organizations.
        Individual VFW members also played an instrumental role in
    facilitating and contributing to the single largest collection
    effort made by Wal-Mart. A number of those World War II
    veterans, as Senator Dole referenced earlier, who work in Wal-
    Mart are also VFW members.
        To honor those courageous veterans who in their youth saved
    the world, the VFW has given unprecedented support to ensure
    that their sacrifices are always remembered for generations to
    come. The VFW will match donations at a rate of $1 for every $2
    donated by VFW members, post, and the general public. Although
    the memorial is within reach of fulfilling its goal of
    completion, time is still of the essence. It is estimated that
    fewer than half of the 16 million men and women who served
    during the Second World War are still alive. The VFW will
    continue to work to ensure that these funds are used for the
    portions of the memorial dedicated to those who died in the
    service to this Nation during that great conflict.
        We especially commend the American Battle Monuments
    Commission as well as the Memorial Campaign for the yeoman
    service they have offered up in this regard.
        Mr. Chairman, this concludes my testimony. I would be happy
    to answer any questions you may have.
        Mr. Shays. Thank you very much.
        [The prepared statement of Mr. Cullinan follows:]

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        Mr. Shays. I first want to commend the VFW for setting a
    goal of $7.5 million. That's truly extraordinary with all the
    other activities that have--you and the services you provide,
    to take that on as an obligation is quite commendable.
        Mr. Cullinan. Thank you very much.
        Mr. Shays. I want to be clear, Mr. Clark, you audit both
    the Commission as well as the memorial fund.
        Mr. Clark. We began auditing just the memorial fund in
    1993. So for 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, that's all that we
    audited, and we issued a separate report just on that. Now what
    we have is a comprehensive set of financial statements which
    includes all of ABMC's operation. If you look at the financial
    statements, you will see that there's a separate column on the
    financial statements just for the World War II funds. So you
    can see the whole ABMC at one time, and within those statements
    see the separate funds for the World War II fund.
        Mr. Shays. So just address the fund itself. The fund is
    sound; how would you describe the effort on the fund?
        Mr. Clark. I would like to point out first, our purpose is
    to ensure that the financial statements accurately reflect what
    ABMC has in the fund, what it has spent, what its obligations
    may be. And that is fairly presented or it's accurate. If you
    go beyond that, you will see that the fund in fact is healthy.
    As the witnesses were testifying earlier, we were over here, we
    were reconciling those numbers and they sounded accurate to us.
    Our report is as of last September 30th, so we are assuming the
    numbers you have today are much updated.
        Mr. Shays. They've raised significant funds since then. Can
    you address the concept of 26 percent of the cost going into
    the fundraising effort? Is that something you can address? If
    not, I don't want you to. In other words, is that something you
    spoke to?
        Mr. Clark. That is not something we look at specifically.
        Mr. Shays. But you verify basically that they allocated so
    much for fundraising, they raised so much.
        Mr. Clark. Yes.
        Mr. Shays. Mr. Cullinan, do you want to speak about the
    efforts to raise funds in general and your sense of how they're
    doing?
        Mr. Cullinan. Actually I would, Mr. Chairman. I think this
    is a terrific example of a movement that's from the bottom up.
    You know, in many things, especially with respect to what does
    and does not get done here on Capitol Hill, the national
    organization takes the lead. But this is an example where the
    individual members, auxiliary members, our VFW posts throughout
    the Nation, took it upon themselves to not only initiate action
    but to follow through.
        There's almost a humorous side bar reference to our efforts
    on behalf of Wal-Mart earlier, and indeed I believe our
    membership played a significant role. But as a veterans service
    organization with a set goal of $7.5 million, we would have
    liked for them to make their financial donations through the
    VFW. Sometimes they were so zealous, so enthused about seeing
    this World War II Memorial become reality, they went through
    Wal-Mart or elsewhere. So I think that says it all. It's in the
    hearts and souls of the VFW membership, the grassroots.
        Mr. Shays. A family affair, isn't it?
        Mr. Cullinan. A family affair.
        Mr. Shays. Would you just want to address the site location
    and how you all resolve it in your organization's mind?
        Mr. Cullinan. We are not professing to being experts in
    matters of architecture or esthetics. The VFW is on record in
    support of the site location. We've testified twice before the
    Congress in this regard as well as the Fine Arts Commission and
    elsewhere, you know. Our objective as a veterans organization
    is to ensure that the best possible memorial be constructed in
    honor of the heroes of the Second World War, and that's our
    perspective.
        Mr. Shays. As I look at the site, I see an archway with
    people. I guess in the model it represents people. And you
    realize that's still quite an impressive site, even though they
    toned it down a bit. But as someone who went, evolved from
    being opposed to the site to someone who supports it based on
    two things--one, the fact that they did make it more in keeping
    size-wise, but also they basically maintain the Reflecting Pool
    as it pretty much is--I mean, it will be slightly different--
    and the site line.
        So I think what they did was a very acceptable and more
    than acceptable job of conforming to the concerns that some
    people expressed, and still being in a place that people will
    see and enjoy. So I think it's--I think they did well. That's
    kind of how I evolved in that process.
        I don't have other questions. Mrs. Biggert, do you have
    questions you would like to ask?
        Mrs. Biggert. Well, since this report is so good, it's
    really hard to ask any questions.
        Mr. Shays. We don't have to make news.
        Mrs. Biggert. That's right. I might just ask, Mr. Cullinan,
    do you think that your sources for fundraising are pretty
    tapped out? I mean, are there more members that you can go to
    or is this----
        Mr. Cullinan. This is a conversation yesterday afternoon
    with our Kansas City headquarters. They're the ones who
    coordinate the matching program and are in touch with our
    various posts and grassroots representatives. From what they
    tell me, enthusiasm is still there. Yes, it is quite a burden
    and there are many things that they're asked to contribute to,
    many worthy things. But this seems to be a very special issue,
    I would emphasize, not just for the World War II veterans but
    veterans of other wars as well.
        Mrs. Biggert. So you think you'll have no problem reaching
    your goal.
        Mr. Cullinan. I think it looks good.
        Mr. Shays. She does that after every question that she
    asks.
        Let me ask you gentlemen if you have any comments. Your
    testimony is on the record and you did hear testimony that
    preceded you. If you want to respond to any comment or question
    that was asked of the previous panel, be happy to have you
    respond to it.
        Mr. Clark. Not from me, sir.
        Mr. Cullinan. We want to thank and congratulate you for
    having today's hearing.
        Mr. Shays. Thank you both. It's very exciting. Truly, Mr.
    Clark, I know if you had felt there were concerns, you would
    have voiced them. So I think your audit is one which we're
    happy to hear about, and congratulate the Commission and look
    forward to this memorial, this monument, this shrine to our
    World War II veterans and the generation in general being
    built, and happy that we have a lot of good things to look
    forward to.
        And we'll just reemphasize, you had suggested that maybe
    more than half--Mr. Dole had used the number 6 million of the
    16 million still living--obviously it's somewhere in that
    number--but 1,000 a day, veterans that we are losing. I want to
    have as many veterans as possible see this facility, and I
    congratulate Ms. Kaptur on the other side of the aisle for
    acting on a constituent concern and Congress following through
    on it and the administration and the agency moving forward.
        And so I thank all who participated in this hearing, and we
    will adjourn. In fact, we will close the hearing. Thank you.
        [Whereupon, at 11:46 a.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]