[House Hearing, 106 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
67-683
2000
IMPACT OF BANNING SNOWMOBILES INSIDE NATIONAL PARKS ON SMALL BUSINESS
=======================================================================
HEARING
before the
SUBCOMMITTEE ON TAX, FINANCE, AND EXPORTS
of the
COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED SIXTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
__________
WASHINGTON, DC
__________
JULY 13, 2000
__________
Serial No. 106-68
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Small Business
COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
JAMES M. TALENT, Missouri, Chairman
LARRY COMBEST, Texas NYDIA M. VELAZQUEZ, New York
JOEL HEFLEY, Colorado JUANITA MILLENDER-McDONALD,
DONALD A. MANZULLO, Illinois California
ROSCOE G. BARTLETT, Maryland DANNY K. DAVIS, Illinois
FRANK A. LoBIONDO, New Jersey CAROLYN McCARTHY, New York
SUE W. KELLY, New York BILL PASCRELL, New Jersey
STEVEN J. CHABOT, Ohio RUBEN HINOJOSA, Texas
PHIL ENGLISH, Pennsylvania DONNA MC CHRISTENSEN, Virgin
DAVID M. McINTOSH, Indiana Islands
RICK HILL, Montana ROBERT A. BRADY, Pennsylvania
JOSEPH R. PITTS, Pennsylvania TOM UDALL, New Mexico
MICHAEL P. FORBES, New York DENNIS MOORE, Kansas
JOHN E. SWEENEY, New York STEPHANIE TUBBS JONES, Ohio
PATRICK J. TOOMEY, Pennsylvania CHARLES A. GONZALEZ, Texas
JIM DeMINT, South Carolina DAVID D. PHELPS, Illinois
EDWARD PEASE, Indiana GRACE F. NAPOLITANO, California
JOHN THUNE, South Dakota BRIAN BAIRD, Washington
MARY BONO, California MARK UDALL, Colorado
SHELLEY BERKLEY, Nevada
Harry Katrichis, Chief Counsel
Michael Day, Minority Staff Director
------
Subcommittee on Tax, Finance, and Exports
DONALD A. MANZULLO, Illinois, Chairman
STEVEN J. CHABOT, Ohio CAROLYN McCARTHY, New York
PHIL ENGLISH, Pennsylvania RUBEN HINOJOSA, Texas
PATRICK J. TOOMEY, Pennsylvania CHARLES A. GONZALEZ, Texas
GRACE F. NAPOLITANO, California
Philip Eskeland, Senior Professional Staff Member
C O N T E N T S
----------
Page
Hearing held on July 13, 2000.................................... 1
WITNESSES
Stupak, Bart, a Representative in Congress from the State of
Michigan....................................................... 2
Peterson, Collin, a Representative in Congress from the State of
Minnesota...................................................... 4
Thomas, Craig, a Senator in Congress from the State of Wyoming... 10
Collins, Kevin, Legislative Representative, National Parks
Conservation Association....................................... 13
Abbott, James, President, University of South Dakota............. 15
Seely, Clyde, Owner, Three Bear Lodge and West Yellowstone
Conference Hotel............................................... 17
Stein, Bob, Owner, Alger Falls Motel............................. 18
Lyon, John, Owner, J&J Sport..................................... 20
APPENDIX
Opening statements:
Manzullo, Hon. Donald A...................................... 32
McCarthy, Carolyn............................................ 33
Prepared statements:
Stupak, Bart................................................. 34
Thomas, Craig................................................ 36
Collins, Kevin............................................... 38
Abbott, James................................................ 46
Seely, Clyde................................................. 50
Stein, Bob................................................... 68
Lyon, John................................................... 70
Gerou, Stan.................................................. 76
Additional material:
International Snowmobile Manufacturers Association........... 78
Department of Interior Press Release......................... 82
Blue Ribbon Coalition, Inc................................... 102
Letters to Manzullo.......................................... 113
Letters to Thomas............................................ 158
THE IMPACT OF BANNING SNOWMOBILES INSIDE NATIONAL PARKS ON SMALL
BUSINESS
----------
THURSDAY, JULY 13, 2000
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee on Tax, Finance and Exports,
Committee on Small Business,
Washington, DC.
The Subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:03 a.m., in
room 2360, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Donald A.
Manzullo [chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding.
Chairman Manzullo. We are going to start our Subcommittee
hearing.
Congressman Stupak is here. Bart, if you want to go up here
to the witness table, we are going to start with you. And then
as Senator Craig Thomas may be coming in now, or he will
probably come with the second panel, at which time we will
interrupt the testimony of the second panel to accommodate the
time of the Senator.
Why is this Subcommittee, and this member in particular,
who represents a medium Rust Belt city in the flat Midwest,
concerned on this hot July day about snowmobiling in our
national parks? The reason is quite simple: there are more than
4 million snowmobilers in North America, including 58,000 in
Illinois. Plus, snowmobiling contributes over $9.2 billion a
year to the U.S. and Canadian economies and provides 65,000
jobs, mostly in small businesses.
Many of my constituents are avid snowmobilers who travel
great distances to tour our national parks. Ninety-five percent
of snowmobilers consider it family recreation. They spend an
average of $120 per day. The Department of Interior did not
take into account, as required by law, the impact of the
proposed snowmobile ban, upon small businesses, when it made
its grandiose press announcement last April in defiance of
SBREFA, which we worked very hard to pass, and which has been
totally ignored by this Federal agency. This proposal will hurt
a variety of small businesses in the rural towns adjacent to
national parks. In addition, the snowmobile ban inside national
parks has the potential of hurting small businesses like dozens
of snowmobile dealers in northern Illinois, Seward Screw
Products in Seward, Illinois, which makes pistons that go into
snowmobile brake systems, and Bergstrom Skegs of Rockford,
which manufactures after-market traction and control products
for snowmobiles.
The purpose of the hearing is to put real, live faces on
the small businesses that would be negatively impacted by such
a snowmobile ban. Until the Department of Interior recognizes
and deals with these negative impacts, at the very minimum this
ban should be put on an indefinite hold.
I now yield for an opening statement from my good friend
from New York, which has a tremendous number of snowmobiles and
is also the home to my good friend the ranking minority member,
Mrs. McCarthy
Mrs. McCarthy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I used to go to
Vermont almost every single weekend and a lot of times when I
was not skiing, I was snowmobiling also.
Thank you for scheduling this hearing to discuss the
economic impact the national parks ban on snowmobiles will have
on local businesses. I would like to thank Congressman Stupak
as well as our second panel of witnesses for taking time out of
their busy schedule to be here with us this morning. The recent
decision by the National Park Services to ban snowmobiles from
national parks raises some interesting questions.
From an environmental perspective, I believe it is
difficult to contest some of the arguments made concerning the
pollution from snowmobiles. It is my understanding that up to
one-third of the fuel delivered to snowmobile engines goes
straight through and out the tailpipe without being burned.
Furthermore, lubricating oil is mixed directly into the fuel
and is expelled as part of the exhaust. Obviously, this is a
concern.
However, I am also concerned that the interests of small
businesses surrounding national parks were neglected when a
decision was reached to ban snowmobiles from the parks.
Moreover, I am concerned that the decision to completely ban
snowmobiles from national parks is a response of lax
enforcement of current laws dealing with snowmobile use.
Environmental protection is a concern for many of us; however,
I believe the interests of all affected parties need to be
taken into consideration as well.
Therefore, I look forward to the testimony from our
witnesses, and I thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Manzullo. Thank you, Congresswoman McCarthy. Mr.
Stupak, we are going to enforce the 5-minute rule because we
want to get through here as far as we can before the tyranny of
the bells takes place with multiple votes. It is a privilege to
have you here. The Congressman and I were elected together in
1992. He represents the northern part of the great State of
Michigan, including the Upper Peninsula. Congressman Stupak.
STATEMENT OF THE HON. BART STUPAK, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS
FROM THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
Mr. Stupak. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and Congresswoman
McCarthy. Good to see you again.
Let me just summarize my statement. I am actually in a
markup. I am going to have to run down there.
But let me--the U.S. Department of the Interior in a quote
from Assistant Secretary Barry when they made the announcement
said, ``The time has come for the National Park Service to pull
in its welcome mat for recreational snowmobiling. Snowmobiles
are noisy, antiquated machines that are no longer welcome in
our national parks. The snowmobile industry has had many years
to clean up their act and they haven't.'' .
That statement there, the arrogant attitude that they have,
because I don't think they ever have been on a snowmobile--they
obviously know nothing about the industry. They obviously did
not consult anyone in the industry. They obviously have never
been to northern Michigan. They obviously--really, really I
don't know about you, Mr. Chairman, but really got me going on
this issue because they really have not looked at all at what
the industry has done for many years and if they even knew
their own regulations.
At Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore, which is one of four
parks in my district, we have restrictions on where snowmobiles
can go. In my district, this park, or ban if you will, would
ban snowmobiling on 10 miles, 10 miles, 10 of the most critical
miles, because it is probably the most beautiful scenery in our
district. There are other parts of that national park where
snowmobiles do not go, like on the dunes that are on Lake
Superior. We do not go on them because snowmobilers are good,
conscientious people. They do not want to do anything to harm
the environment. They do not want to do anything to degrade a
national park.
So when the ban came out a number of years ago, based on an
executive order in 1972 and 1977, snowmobilers, the local park
people, got together and they said there are certain areas we
should stay off. We do not want to pollute. We do not want to
degrade the environment. We do not want to harm critical,
sensitive environmental areas. So the local parks like Pictured
Rocks got together and put forth where they would move their
snowmobiles back and forth and they developed trails. And it
has been a great recreational enjoyment for people in my
district, people from your district or New York, wherever, who
come to my district and snowmobile, and it has been a great
activity for everyone.
It has been a huge economic impact for my district. I am
pleased that you have invited two of my constituents, Mr. Gerou
and Mr. Stein, who will testify later. Mr. Gerou could not be
here at the last minute, something came up. But he actually,
Stan Gerou actually owns two motels and a snowmobile trail
grooming business in Munising and he has a contract with
Pictured Rocks to groom the 10 miles of trail. To lose that
contract I am sure would be devastating economically to him.
[Mr. Gerou's statement may be found in appendix.]
But even Grant Peterson, the local superintendent of the
park, when we have talked to him, he said I have never, never
in all the time I have been here ever had any problem with
snowmobilers. They do not go out there and rip up the place.
They have been very good about staying on the 10 miles that we
restrict them to. They are not on the dunes. He has never seen
any economic or environmental damage done in the Pictured Rocks
National Park and he was beside himself when they made this
announcement.
And the announcement just basically said we are going to
pull the welcome mat. They did not explain to the American
people that there are certain parks like Pictured Rocks that
have special regulation. You just cannot make an announcement
and overrule the rules and regulations in these 27 special
parks. Again, it shows the arrogant attitude of the National
Park Service for some Assistant Secretary to just say we are
going to ban this without really knowing and following the rule
of law. If you want snowmobilers to follow the rule of law, I
think we should start with the Park Service and Mr. Barry, and
he should follow the rule of law. So the national parks must
first issue a new rule to overturn the special regulations and
just cannot simply make an announcement and expect it to carry
the weight of law.
There is a process to follow here and they haven't followed
it. They have not even published a proposed rule or regulation
in the Federal Register. They have not taken comments. So
anything this Committee can do to block this ill-conceived
attitude of the Park Service we certainly would appreciate it.
I do not blame the local folks. They have worked well with
us this northern Michigan. But you just give some of these
folks out here who, because of pressure from some environmental
groups who have never been probably to northern Michigan and
have never been on a snowmobile, to start saying that they are
environmentally destroying the area and they are antiquated
machines and they are pollution, they just really do not
understand the situation.
So I appreciate you holding this hearing. I see my time is
up and thank you again.
[Mr. Stupak's statement may be found in appendix.]
Chairman Manzullo. Thank you, Congressman Stupak, for that
very compelling firsthand testimony.
Our second guest on our first panel, Congressman Collin
Peterson, from the State of Minnesota. We have worked together
on a lot of ag issues, especially dairy, where we have learned
that milk is thicker than blood.
Mr. Peterson. Hope we have a better result on this.
Chairman Manzullo. Yes. Congressman Peterson, we are trying
to impose the 5-minute rule, please.
STATEMENT OF THE HON. COLLIN PETERSON, A REPRESENTATIVE IN
CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF MINNESOTA
Mr. Peterson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I really want to
thank you for your leadership and recognizing the aspect of
this that sometimes gets forgotten and holding this hearing on
the National Park Service's ban on snowmobiles and the impact
on small businesses. I appreciate the chance to be here and
associate myself with what I heard of my colleague's remarks
here from Michigan.
I represent the Seventh District of Minnesota, which is the
home of Arctic Cat and Polaris Snowmobiles, but in addition to
that I was one of the few Members of Congress who were a
professional snowmobile race driver back in my younger years
before I came to my senses. It is a great start. And for those
of us that are up in the cold country in the wintertime there
is not a whole lot to do. We can go ice fishing, but that gets
boring after a while, and snowmobile riding is one of the great
pastimes that we have and we take offense when people monkey
with it.
To say that this industry has an important economic impact
on local communities and small businesses in my district would
be a dramatic understatement. In Minnesota alone the snowmobile
industry is estimated to generate over a billion dollars of
economic impact. Much of this activity is through small
businesses in my district that supply manufacturer parts and
service and the nearly 200 small business dealers that sell and
service the machines manufactured in my district.
Small businesses such as Automan Engineering, Product
Research and Design, Detroit Lakes Manufacturing, Straight
River Manufacturing, and dozens more small machine and welding
shops throughout the Seventh District do business with Arctic
Cat and Polaris. In turn, these small businesses are able to
maintain jobs and generate economic activity within the local
communities in my district.
When I first was elected we had a big shortage of jobs in
my district. Now, in a lot of these small communities, the
problem is we can't find enough people to fill out those jobs
and one of the reasons is the tremendous activity within the
snowmobile manufacturing area.
The snowmobile industry also means jobs for rural
communities and small businesses because it directly employs
about 10,000 people throughout the Snow Belt. Over half these
employees are in Minnesota and most of them in my district. And
indirectly job creation is estimated apparently at tens of
thousands nationwide. Snowmobile use generates positive
economic activity, as I said, through machine sales and
service, but also tourism. Nationwide, snowmobilers spend over
$9 billion in direct expenditures for the sport.
In the Seventh District of Minnesota and many other
communities across the Snow Belt this direct support is for
small businesses. Cafes, motels, resorts, fuel stations and
other local businesses receive the benefit of increased
economic activity in the wintertime because of this sport.
Often, this additional revenue comes during a time of the
year when the other businesses have been reduced because of
obviously the weather situation. Whether directly through the
manufacturers or indirectly through tourism, the snowmobile
industry is a critical cog in the economic wheel of the Seventh
District of Minnesota and other areas throughout the Snow Belt.
Although rural communities too often are left behind in the
recent national economic prosperity and small businesses have
struggled to maintain their viability, I am pleased to report
that the snowmobile industry has been a bright spot for the
Seventh District and other areas in the Nation because they
have provided a reliable source of economic activity for
several of those communities that I mentioned, and as I said,
the unemployment rates remain very low throughout my district
partly because of this industry.
In closing, Mr. Chairman, any activity affecting the health
and well-being of snowmobile demand and use affects my rural
communities and small businesses. The proposed snowmobile ban
by the U.S. Park Service is such an action. The Park Service
decision to ban snowmobiles from our national parks in my
opinion was totally arbitrary and without any factual basis. A
complete and scientific review of the environmental impact was
not completed before the proposed action, and I think that this
reckless proposal failed to consider the impact that such a ban
would have on the workers and small businesses throughout the
United States.
You know, whatever they are trying to accomplish here, if
they really think that this congestion and pollution is a
problem, I would suggest that cars are a much bigger problem
than snowmobiles, and if this is what they want to do, what
they ought to really be looking at is banning cars in
Yellowstone Park, because that is doing a lot more damage to
Yellowstone Park and these other areas than snowmobiles are.
So implementing an arbitrary ban on snowmobile use within
our national park would have a devastating impact on small
businesses in north and western Minnesota and the Snow Belt. I
think the other thing that worries us is that this is just the
tip of the iceberg and that the next thing that you are going
to see is that they are going to want to ban snowmobiles in all
of the Federal land, Forest Service land, BLM land, and the
next time is going to be ATVs, all-terrain vehicles. They are
going to want to try to ban those from those areas. This is bad
enough, but I am very, very concerned about the precedent this
would set and the kind of things that would come in the future
which would have even a bigger negative economic impact.
So thanks for your leadership. We look forward to working
with you.
Chairman Manzullo. I appreciate that. I have just a couple
of questions to both Members of Congress. Did anybody from the
Department of Interior contact you in advance of this ruling
coming out?
Mr. Peterson. Not me.
Mr. Stupak. No, Mr. Chairman. In fact, we have an internal
document that we were able to obtain from the National Park
Service and what they did, basically they had their own little
group that got together and decided to put forth this ban and
they talk about the meetings they had and who was there. No one
was from the snowmobile industry, no Members of Congress.
Chairman Manzullo. Could you state who was there? Is it a
lot of people who were there?
Mr. Stupak. Representatives from the parks. They did not
list every one of them. I will be happy to share this memo with
you.
Chairman Manzullo. Any outside groups besides the parks?
Mr. Stupak. The Blue Water Network Petition, which is an
environmental group associated with 60 other environmental
organizations.
Chairman Manzullo. The environmental organizations were
invited to come, but the people actually impacted were not
invited to come to this meeting?
Mr. Stupak. The way I read it, the recommendations and
results of the 2-day service workshop on snowmobile policy for
the National Park Service were held; 55 people from the
Department and National Park Service, including representatives
of 33 of the 42 national parks in which snowmobile use occurs,
and some other groups in here. They mostly talked about
Yellowstone and Grand Teton National Parks. It appears from
this memo that is where the emphasis came from and some
videotapes on wildlife that they had in these two parks, and
from that the conclusion was that we should ban snowmobile use.
Chairman Manzullo. I would like to have that document, plus
your testimony, be made a part of the record. Perhaps we should
have a second hearing before the Subcommittee and bring in the
National Park Service and the people who feel that they can
make regulations without talking to the people which are
impacted by them.
Mrs. McCarthy.
Mrs. McCarthy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you,
again, for the testimony. Bart, you and I talked about this a
little bit last night, and you actually had some what you felt
would be solutions or at least how we could work through this.
I was wondering if you could share that with us.
Mr. Stupak. Sure. The snowmobile organizations, throughout
the United States and especially in northern Michigan, if there
is a problem, like say at Pictured Rocks, with snowmobiling,
let's work with them, work the solution out. Let's allow the
local supervisors and park personnel to work on any regulations
or needs that they have to work out.
As I said, in Pictured Rocks it is a huge park in my
district. There is only 10 miles that snowmobilers, that the
Park Service agreed they could use. To now pull the rug on
those 10 miles, or the welcome mat if you will, just does not
make any sense. So instead of having snowmobilers going where
they are welcome in the national park, so what are you going to
do? Say no snowmobiles are there? How are you going to enforce
it? You will not find the snowmobilers going only on the 10
miles; they will go everywhere, even over the critical and
sensitive areas.
So number one, let the snowmobilers and the people work it
out. Number two, those parks that actually have these rules and
regulations, let's review them. Number three, if there is
environmental damage, put forth the evidence and let's discuss
it with the snowmobile groups. Number four, let's look at the
economic impact to our communities and our areas before you
start making these bans.
That is really part of the purpose and mission of the
national parks. Not only do they have to protect the parks and
the national forests and all of that, but they have to have use
and access. And when you are up in Munising, you get 2 to 300
inches of snow a year; the only way you are going to have
access is basically through snowmobiles. And if it is
restricted to 10 miles, it has worked out well for us. As I
said, Grant Peterson, the local supervisor, had never had
troubles with snowmobilers, no environmental ecological damage
to our park. And for someone in Washington to get together
because there is a concern about Yellowstone and the Grand
Tetons to withdraw the whole system is just ludicrous.
Mr. Peterson. Could I--Arctic Cat has been--is working on
new technology, I think all manufacturers are going to four-
stroke engines. That is happening in the outboard engine area
as well. And they, last year, took a big portion of their four-
strokes and moved them into Yellowstone in their concession
there. So they have been moving as fast--actually faster than
the agreement was to try to get ahead of this pollution
problem.
So I think the industry is trying to work on this, but my
own view of what is going on is that this has nothing to do
with pollution. These people do not want motorized activity in
these parks. That is what this is about. Except their cars to
get there, you know. But they do not want ATVs. They do not
want snowmobiles. They want--this is a whole different
attitude. They want this wilderness experience. We have been
fighting this in the Voyageurs National Park and BWCA in
Minnesota for years where they are trying to ban motor vehicles
and snowmobiles and float planes and everything else.
So that is really at bottom of what is going on with this
Blue Water outfit, whatever their name is. They are a bunch of
environmental groups and they are really--they are concerned
about pollution, but the bottom thing that they are really
after is getting motorized traffic all out of these parks. And
eventually it is going to be BLM land, Forest Service land, and
the whole works because that is what they want.
Mrs. McCarthy. Following up with that, and I want to go
back to the papers that you had, Bart, as far as--and something
that you said, Congressman Peterson, as far as there was no
scientific proof, no--the impact study hadn't been done before
all of these regulations came down?
Mr. Peterson. Well, as I understand what happened in
Yellowstone, one of the interesting things is that Yellowstone
was exempted from this regulation, as I understand it. So this
does not apply to Yellowstone, which is where the----
Chairman Manzullo. But as part of the overall scheme to
include it.
Mr. Peterson. Yes, apparently there is a lawsuit going on
or some kind of a deal, whatever it was. Where a lot of this
started when these snowmobiles start up in the parking lot at
Yellowstone, there are 7 or 800 of them and they are idling
getting ready to go for the day and they went in and monitored
and did the testing right there. They did not do it out on the
trail.
So you could--again, I think they were setting this thing
up to get the conclusion that they wanted, because they had a
different agenda that they were trying to accomplish. So the
way we view this, there has not been any kind of a scientific
look at this that is fair in our opinion. And what they are
doing is they are using this 1972 executive order to use as the
reason, for the basis for doing this. I don't know that anybody
envisioned in 1972 that this was going to be what the outcome
of that executive order was.
Mrs. McCarthy. I would just like to follow up with one
thing. For many years during the summer, my husband and I used
to go fishing. Now, with that obviously we had to go out onto
the beach. We got our permits, we went through all the testing.
And for many years it was just a number of us that fished. We
would be on the shores of the beaches and it was absolutely
wonderful.
And then, of course, as word leaked out that more people
could go on the beach, then we saw these younger people,
unfortunately, start doing damage to the dunes. That is when we
had the Long Island Beach Buggy Association. A number of us
that were concerned about this started regulating just those
that came onto the beach ourselves because we did not want them
to ruin it for us. And I think that is something that
unfortunately happens all the time. And as Bart had said, my
concern would be if we closed down these trails, and you
think--certainly I am concerned about the small businesses that
are in the area, you are going to have your snowmobilers go out
there and they are going to find their ways because, you know,
they go out at night. We certainly did. But we did follow
trails mainly for safety issues.
So hopefully we can work something out to make it conducive
for everybody. Thank you.
Chairman Manzullo. So you had a beach buggy?
Mrs. McCarthy. Yes.
Chairman Manzullo. And you used to race snowmobiles? Okay.
I have just one question. Collin, do you have any national
parks in your congressional district?
Mr. Peterson. No, I do not.
Chairman Manzullo. But in an adjoining congressional
district?
Mr. Peterson. Yes, it is close to me. Voyageurs National
Park.
Chairman Manzullo. Congressman Stupak, you have four?
Mr. Stupak. I have four, Mr. Chairman. I have Sleeping Bear
National Lakeshore down by Traverse City. Snowmobiles are not
allowed there because it is basically dunes areas. We know
that; we respect that. We have Pictured Rocks. We have Isle
Royal. You couldn't get a snowmobile out there, because it is
in the middle of Lake Superior, if you wanted to. And Keweenaw
National Park, which has probably on average 350 inches of snow
every year. That is all owned by private and the village of
Calumet in the area and there is no real Federal landholding
there, so they cannot restrict us there.
Chairman Manzullo. Are there any state parks in your areas
that restrict motorized vehicles?
Mr. Peterson. I have a lot of state parks and you know
while they are restricted to the extent that you have to go on
trails and so forth, which is the way it should be, I do not
have any where they have banned the use of motorized vehicles
of any kind, other than to put them on trails.
Mr. Stupak. I have lots of state parks, and again, in the
critical dunes areas, which are in Pictured Rocks and Sleeping
Bear, and other parts of Michigan on the Lake Michigan side,
Lake Superior side and even on the Lake Huron side, they do ban
the snowmobiles and we respect that. We are happy to do it. We
work with the parks, be it the state, local, and Federal folks
because we do not want to do anything which would harm the
environment. So we do have some restrictions placed on them and
everyone abides by those restrictions.
Mr. Peterson. Plus the trail system, and I assume you have
it in Michigan too. We have a tremendous trail system in
Minnesota that when I was in the legislature I helped establish
and fund the grooming. It not only makes a better situation in
the park, it is a better deal for private landowners because it
puts the people on a trail and they are not out running all
over their fields, and it is a safety issue. They are not
running into fences, running into the ditches. We have had a
lot of people in Minnesota over the years killed because they
have run into a barbed wire fence or something.
So I mean the system we have got works. It makes a lot of
sense. The problem is, as I say, you have people that just do
not like these vehicles and have a different agenda.
Chairman Manzullo. Are there any links between state parks
and the national park systems where the trails come together?
Mr. Stupak. Oh, yeah.
Mr. Peterson. Sure, and between us and Canada I have been
dealing with up in my Lake of the Woods area, where they closed
down the border stations. The biggest issue has been how to get
these snowmobilers back and forth in this remote area. We
finally put in video phones and we have been having trouble
making them work when it is 40 below. But we have got not only
hooked up between private and public and state, we also have
trail systems hooked up between us and Canada.
Mr. Stupak. The trails are all connected and run across the
Upper Peninsula, Lower Peninsula, through towns, private land.
Chairman Manzullo. So to ban the trails in the National
Park System would interrupt the state trails.
Mr. Stupak. Exactly.
Chairman Manzullo. So it would be major links that would be
eliminated in the whole system.
Mr. Stupak. It very well could be. It depends on where the
links are.
Chairman Manzullo. Here is Senator Thomas. You have always
been great at timing.
Mr. Stupak. I will make sure that you get this memo, the
one that I referred to.
Chairman Manzullo. Senator Thomas, we are under the 5-
minute rule and you came just in time.
STATEMENT OF THE HON. CRAIG THOMAS, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE
STATE OF WYOMING
Senator Thomas. Well, our darned voting interrupts the
thing. Thank you very much for the opportunity to be here. I am
glad that your Committee is taking a look at this effort on the
part of the Park Service to ban the use of snowmobiles in a
number of parks, and I am pleased to have a chance to talk
about that. I am chairman of the Park Subcommittee in the
Senate, a native of Cody, Wyoming, right outside of Yellowstone
Park, so parks have been part of my life forever.
I am concerned about it because of the impact it can have,
of course, on the gateway communities. I am concerned about it
also because it is my belief that parks have at least two
purposes. One is to preserve the resource, the other is to
provide for a pleasant visit for the people who own the parks,
and that is the taxpayers of this country.
So what is really interesting to me and concerning me is
the process more than anything. The unilateral decision on the
part of the Park Service to ban snowmobiles is troubling for a
number of reasons, I think. Basically there are two: One is
that the park, by their own admission, has not managed the use
of these machines. It has gone on in some cases as much as 20
years without any management on the part of the Park Service.
And the other, of course, is that some of the information they
use in terms of science involved, this does not seem to be
accurate. There have been no standards set by EPA or any of the
other agencies which the manufacturers of snow machines
indicate they would be willing to do if they knew where they
had to go and before they invested their money.
So, really, that is really the issue here. We have no real
idea of what the impacts may or may not be or how they can be
changed. There has been no attempt, particularly on the part of
the parks--for instance, in Yellowstone there is an opportunity
you could separate the machines from cross country skiers so
that if they were conflicting you could do that. And you can
manage those things, and that is what the park is supposed to
do is manage this resource.
So I think the alternative that they have chosen is simply
to say that we are not going to do that any more. And, of
course, in the instance that you are concerned about it does
have a substantial impact on the economy of the surrounding
gateway communities, plus of course the snow machine is a
fairly large industry and in some States has a good deal of--I
want to say, also, that in addition to the economics of it, I
am very concerned about the access question.
We have seen a lot of that in this administration, whether
it be parks, whether it be roadless areas, whether it be
Antiquities Act or the purchase of more Federal lands, there
seems to be an effort, a movement by this administration to
replace their present legacy with one of Theodore Roosevelt
kind of thing and reduce access to public lands.
I live in a state where half of the state belongs to the
Federal Government, and, obviously, my first priority is to
help maintain those resources but I am also committed to the
notion that they can be used and maintained at the same time,
and that is what they are for.
So I would just hope that we would urge the Park Service to
move forward in finding ways. Take some time. We have an
amendment--I am not sure we will push it on the Interior bill--
which says here is some money, take some time and study this
thing and see what impacts it has, not only on the surrounding
communities, what impacts it really has on the resource--there
is very much a question about that--and certainly take a look
at how it can be managed so that it could continue to exist to
give people access without damaging the resource.
So, really, that is, Mr. Chairman, that is about the size
of it. And as I say, I think I hear all the time, well, we have
lots of other places you can use machines, and that is true,
the forests and so on. But this is simply a movement into an
area that I think is not the right thing for agencies to do,
and that is just to make unilateral, knee-jerk decisions here
in Washington rather than going through some of the
alternatives that are available so that that could continue.
So thank you very much for the chance to be here.
[Sen. Thomas's statement may be found in appendix.]
Mrs. McCarthy. Thank you, Senator. The testimony that we
heard from our colleagues was interesting. Let me state that I
am an environmentalist, but I will say also that I also know
these groups work very hard because, let's face it, if we are
going to take these trails and damage them, those that do
snowmobiling will take away the beauty that actually is why
they are in there.
So I think it was mentioned earlier before you got here
that we should have a full Committee hearing and delve into
this, but apparently time is of the essence if this was a
proclamation that was put down. Is this taking effect
immediately?
Chairman Manzullo. There will be proposed regulations
coming out in September, but this Subcommittee is doing what
the National Park Service should have been doing all along:
getting input from the people who are impacted.
Mrs. McCarthy. But we will have to take care of this before
this next winter comes so it will not impact our small
businesses. We will work it out one way or the other. I think
there is certainly room for everyone to be accommodated and I
think that is what we should be doing, especially on the
Federal Government level. We have to take the interests of the
local people, certainly people that want to go into the woods,
which is absolutely beautiful, and, yes, working with the
manufacturers because I think if they are willing to come up
with machines that certainly are in better condition and have
less emissions as far as air pollution we will try to work with
them also.
So I am looking forward--hopefully you will get some money
into the Interior Appropriations that we can look into this and
actually have evidence one way or the other on deciding this
issue. I thank you, sir.
Chairman Manzullo. Senator, did anybody from the National
Park Service ever contact you or your office with regard to
banning snowmobiling in the National Park Service?
Senator Thomas. Not really. We have sort of a unique thing
going on in Wyoming in which there has been over the last year
and a half a winter use study going on in Teton and Yellowstone
Parks, brought about partially because of some suits and so on,
and it had to do with the movement of buffalo and, you know,
whatever. And so that was part of it. And during the course of
this, before that was completed and indeed before even all the
statements that had been submitted had had a chance to be
reviewed, and we worked hard to get a cooperative agency thing
in here for local governments, before they even had a chance to
do it, frankly, an Assistant Secretary at Interior announced
that they would ban use of snow machines in parks.
So the answer to your question is no.
Chairman Manzullo. Congressman Thune.
Mr. Thune. Mr. Chairman, I do not have any questions at
this point. Thanks.
Chairman Manzullo. Okay. Senator, we thank you for coming.
Senator Thomas. It has been my pleasure.
Chairman Manzullo. Let us know what we can do on this side.
Do you have a further question?
Mrs. McCarthy. No, no.
Chairman Manzullo. Thank you very much.
Senator Thomas. Thank you. Stay in touch, please.
Chairman Manzullo. Let's have the second panel come up and
we will get started there.
Okay. We have our second panel here. Let me briefly
introduce everybody. From my right to the left is Kevin
Collins, Legislative Representative from the National Parks
Conservation Association; then Dr. James Abbott, President of
the University of South Dakota; Clyde Seely, owner of the Three
Bear Lodge and West Yellowstone Conference Hotel, West
Yellowstone, Montana; Bob Stein, owner of Alger Falls Motel in
Munising, Michigan. Is that right?
Mr. Stein. Munising.
Chairman Manzullo. This is in Mr. Stupak's district. And
John Lyon, owner of J&J Sport in Sycamore, just outside of my
district, but in the Speaker's district.
We will start first with Mr. Collins from the NPCA. Thank
you for coming and we are adhering to the 5-minute rule, so if
the gavel comes down you have 20 seconds to sum up.
STATEMENT OF KEVIN COLLINS, LEGISLATIVE REPRESENTATIVE,
NATIONAL PARKS CONSERVATION ASSOCIATION, WASHINGTON, DC
Mr. Collins. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am Kevin Collins,
with the National Parks Conservation Association, and I request
that in addition to my own written testimony, testimony from
Peter Morton, who is a Ph.D. national resource economist with
the Wilderness Society and also testimony from some folks from
West Yellowstone, Montana, who could not be here today, be
included in the record.
Chairman Manzullo. We will include that.
Mr. Collins. Thank you. As the only witness here today who
represents the other side of the argument, I will try my best
to summarize the main points that many of us believe are
important on this issue.
Today's hearing looks specifically at the impact of
snowmobile restrictions on small businesses. We believe that it
is the primary mission and concern of the National Park Service
to protect and preserve national parks and we believe that that
ought to be the primary concern of Congress as well. We do not
dismiss the impact on small businesses or large businesses for
that matter. But in our opinion, the first concern ought to be
for the protection of the national parks.
Let me say that I believe that the snowmobile manufacturers
have consciously decided to exaggerate the economic impact that
restrictions on snowmobiles in national parks will have. The
International Snowmobile Manufacturers Association has an
extensive Web site that lists their position and various facts.
They say that West Yellowstone, Montana, quote, will close down
if the park transitions to a snowcoach economy. I think that is
a fairly outlandish claim and I think if you look at the
letters from businesspeople in West Yellowstone, you will be
inclined to agree.
But they then go on to claim that, quote, the phenomenon
will repeat itself 27 times across our Nation, creating
wintertime ghost towns across America. I think that is an
extraordinary exaggeration.
Let me try to correct some of the misstatements that I
think have been made today. The National Park Service has not
taken a unilateral action to ban snowmobiles. As the chairman
noted, there is a proposed rule that will be released by the
Park Service. It is my understanding that that rule will look
specifically at each of the 28 some national parks that
currently have authorized use, and will deal with each of them
and their specific circumstances individually.
There are really only three or four national parks at which
snowmobiling plays a significant part in the local economy, and
there is really no place where snowmobiling inside the park is
the only recreational snowmobiling opportunity.
Congressman Stupak spoke eloquently about Pictured Rocks
National Lakeshore and it is currently true that Pictured Rocks
sees a fair amount of snowmobile use, 26,000 snowmobiles a
year, but that pales in comparison to the almost 300,000
snowmobiles that are used and registered in the state. And
those people, according to the Association of Manufacturers,
those people drive about 114 million miles on their snowmobiles
just in the state. It is amazing.
The state has 6,000 miles of snowmobile trails outside of
the national parks and the situation really is the same all
around the country. According to the American Council of
Snowmobile Associations, there are about 130,000 miles of
groomed snowmobile trails specifically for snowmobiles. There
are an additional hundreds of thousands of acres of Forest
Service lands, state lands that are open to snowmobiles and
other uses.
Of that, there are less than 700 miles of roads open to
snowmobiles in national parks. I find it hard to believe that
prohibiting snowmobiling on just 700 miles of road is going to
create winter ghost towns around the country.
I think it is important to note that the town of West
Yellowstone, which has been cited and will be cited later
today, as one that would be greatly impacted by any changes in
regulation at the park, is clearly divided on the snowmobile
issue. Many business owners believe that the removal of
snowmobiles from the park will provide economic diversification
and actual growth in the winter economy, and I have submitted
some letters to the record that state that.
Over 150 West Yellowstone businesspeople, elected officials
and residents, which is actually nearly a third of the town's
voting population, have signed a petition asking for a healthy
park and a healthy economy, and I think that sums it up rather
nicely. The message from the businesses and people of West
Yellowstone is: Protect Yellowstone National Park and you
protect our community and you protect our economy.
I think it is worth looking at the broader picture of
snowmobile use, particularly near West Yellowstone. Again if
you do some searching on the Internet, you come up with some
promotional materials for snowmobiling opportunities near West
Yellowstone. It says, for the hard core snowmobile enthusiast
there are more than 900 snowmobile trails that are available
from the Yellowstone area. That does not include the national
parks.
I have a map which is difficult to see, but I will submit
for the record, that shows in yellow and red all the Federal
areas that are open to snowmobiles outside of the national
park. Right here in the center where you see the lake is the
national park. All of this is other public lands, Federal lands
open to snowmobiles. This is West Yellowstone. There are plenty
of recreational snowmobile opportunities outside the park.
On the other hand, snowmobiling has become a big part of
many people's livelihood, particularly near Yellowstone, and
these people have built their businesses based at least in part
on decisions that the Park Service has made. The Park Service
has clearly for 20 years or so, specifically allowed
snowmobiles and in many cases they have encouraged snowmobile
use.
Chairman Manzullo. Mr. Collins, we are at the end of 5
minutes. I will give you 20 seconds to wrap up.
Mr. Collins. I think it is fair and reasonable for this
Committee, Congress, and the Park Service to work together to
try to smooth the transition to a non-snowmobile winter economy
for West Yellowstone. But I think the primary paramount concern
needs to be the protection of the national parks. Thank you.
[Mr. Collins' statement may be found in appendix.]
Chairman Manzullo. Thank you for coming. Congressman Thune,
could you introduce your constituent?
Mr. Thune. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And let me just say
that I appreciate the opportunity to have this hearing to talk
about this issue. This is an issue which is important to the
people of South Dakota, as well as the people in a lot of areas
across this country, of national parks. And I am pleased and
honored to have with us a distinguished South Dakotan, the
President of the University of South Dakota, someone with an
extraordinary resume of both public and private service having
been very successful in business as an attorney, former state
legislator and currently president, as I said earlier, of the
University of South Dakota. And I think he will probably speak
to the impact that this proposed regulation would have on a
number of jobs. There is a Polaris facility in Vermillion,
which is home to the University of South Dakota. President
Abbott is someone who can understand firsthand the impact that
jobs and economic development have on a college town like that.
So I am delighted to have him here today and to hear from
him and look forward to what he has to say. Good to have you
here, Jim.
STATEMENT OF DR. JAMES ABBOTT, PRESIDENT, THE UNIVERSITY OF
SOUTH DAKOTA, VERMILLION, SD
Dr. Abbott. Thank you, Representative Thune. Mr. Chairman,
thank you, other members of the Committee.
I am pleased to be here today and honored to be here today
to speak to you on behalf of the impact--of the economic impact
of the proposed ban on snowmobiles in Federal parks. I do not
consider myself an expert by any means on snowmobiling nor do I
snowmobile. But I do think the impact is significant and could
certainly be significant to South Dakota and to my hometown of
Vermillion. ``Current hometown'' is a better description.
I am president of the University of South Dakota, a small
public university with an enrollment of approximately 6400
students in Vermillion, South Dakota, a town of 12,000,
including students.
I will make my presentation as quickly and simply as
possible. I specifically, in addition to my written comments,
would simply like to emphasize two points. First of all, I
think it would be difficult to overestimate the impact of
snowmobiling in South Dakota and to tourism, which is, in fact,
our second largest industry. Winter travelers in South Dakota
spend an average of $281 a day as opposed to summer travelers,
who spend approximately $144 a day. And among those surveyed by
the Department of Tourism of the State of South Dakota,
snowmobiling was overwhelming the number one activity
respondents said that they participated in in South Dakota, or
passed through South Dakota to participate in. 47.2 percent of
those responding participated in snowmobiling as opposed to 9.4
percent who visited, for instance, Mount Rushmore, which would
be our major tourist attraction.
I think it is also important to point out that in states
like South Dakota with a very small population and a diverse
geography it is important to maintain an economic base all
through the year, and not just the summer.
Our economy is heavily dependent upon agriculture and
tourism, and certainly it needs to be a year round industry,
not just a summer activity.
I would also like to comment on the effect of snowmobiling
in the Vermillion area and on the University of South Dakota
because of the Polaris plant that is located in Vermillion,
South Dakota. It is, if I am correct, the largest single plant
in the State of South Dakota in one site. Vermillion simply is
a one-economy town in most respects in that the university
accounts for a huge number of the percentage of jobs. I think
it is important to note that the effect of Polaris Sales, Inc.,
in Vermillion was the creation of 153 jobs and $32 million in
annual earnings. That translates to an indirect economic effect
of about 146 more jobs and another $20 million and
approximately 3300 added jobs and $52 million in annual
earnings in the state. So there really is a multiplier effect.
On the University of South Dakota alone it makes a
tremendous difference because we have at least 55 students who
each year are able to find a paying job, much better paying
than normal at the university.
The other thing I think that is a very important thing to
note about Polaris is that in our small town of Vermillion,
Polaris itself is 10 percent of the commercial tax base of the
city. An enormous number, not in terms of dollars but in terms
of impact that it would have. And I am under no illusions that
generally speaking when an activity is affected, it is the
plant in the smaller areas and the less populated areas and
those areas further from a major metropolitan areas which tend
to be phased out.
So it is important to our economy, it is important to the
University of South Dakota and it is important to the State of
South Dakota that snowmobiling be protected in some fashion. I
thank you for the opportunity to be here today and appreciate
the opportunity to speak with you.
[Dr. Abbott's statement may be found in appendix.]
Chairman Manzullo. Thank you, Dr. Abbott.
Clyde Seely.
STATEMENT OF CLYDE SEELY, OWNER, THREE BEAR LODGE AND WEST
YELLOWSTONE CONFERENCE HOTEL, WEST YELLOWSTONE, MT
Mr. Seely. Mr. Chairman, my name is Clyde Seely. I am
honored and pleased to come before you today. I bring to you
over 30 years of firsthand experience regarding snowmobile
rentals and related businesses in Yellowstone National Park and
West Yellowstone, Montana, gateway community of about 1000
people. I first came to Yellowstone in 1958 as a laundry boy
and have since acquired and have listed my other affiliated
businesses on the cover page.
I would like to share with you my observations and my best
assessment of what a snowmobile ban would do to us and our
community. I would also like to share with you why I believe
the all-snowcoach alternative will have negative impacts on the
economy as well.
I currently employ over 220 people, many with families. Our
payroll is in excess of $2.5 million. We provide retirement
plans as well as insurance plans for our employees. A ban on
snowmobiles in Yellowstone will cause great economic harm, not
only to ourselves but to our employees. Cuts will have to be
made. The first cut would be employee insurance, then
employees, then retirement plans, then more employees. Of
course, the last dime would have to go to the bank to satisfy
our loan requirements. I don't believe they would just forget
about that.
At Three Bear Lodge, 52 percent of our total annual revenue
comes from the winter months. We believe that a ban on
snowmobiles would cut our winter revenue by 60 to 70 percent.
We currently operate 260 rental snowmobiles with the vast
majority of people going into Yellowstone at least once during
their stay. Yellowstone was the catalyst for bringing over
60,000 people to West Yellowstone who entered the west gate in
1998.
Let me preface the next part by bringing to your attention
that the ban on snowmobiles that we are talking about in
Yellowstone today, is the extension of the National Park
Service EIS. Their preferred Alternative G would replace
snowmobiles with a snowcoach-only alternative. This plan is
fraught with many problems, ill-thought out assumptions and in
the end simply does not work.
Chairman Manzullo. Clyde, let me interrupt you. Could you
define a snowcoach?
Mr. Seely. They have evolved over the past 20 or 30 years.
They used to be a more antiquated machine than they are now. We
currently use new vans, 15-passenger vans. We convert them by
taking off the wheels, putting on a large track system on the
back and ski on the front and they carry 10 people.
Does that answer it? Okay. Thank you.
If this alternative, along with a ban on snowmobiles, is
implemented, the result will be financially catastrophic. We
also operate a fleet of snowmobiles. We advertise with equal
emphasis snowmobiles and snowcoach and find only about 5
percent of the people choose to go on snowcoach, whereas 95
percent prefer the snowmobile. I proved as the boy the old
adage you can lead the horse to water, but you can't make him
drink. We can offer Yellowstone snowcoach trips and hype it up
as much as possible, but when it comes right down to it, the
snowcoach will only satisfy a niche market and will fail
dismally in satisfying the public's rights and wishes to access
Yellowstone. If that fails, so will our economy.
There are real economic concerns with the snowcoach plan.
One, there is no feasibility study nor business plan that
states that the all-snowcoach plan will work. Two, snowcoaches,
as we know them, will cost between 65 and $80,000 per coach and
will only carry about 10 people. Instead of becoming a cheaper
mode of transportation, it becomes a more expensive way to see
the park than by snowmobile.
Number three, rental snowmobiles are bought new and sold
after each season, thereby freeing up capital. The snowcoach
will have to be a long-term investment with a low rate of
return and sit idle during the summer months.
Number four, indoor storage facilities are a must. Land for
such facilities is extremely expensive if not impossible to
obtain in our little town. The cost of building such facilities
would be horrendous.
I have read the testimony and listened to the testimony of
Kevin Collins, and I strongly disagree with some of the slanted
misinformation and misrepresentations. I and the State of
Wyoming will be happy to follow up with a rebuttal of these
misrepresentations and misleading comments. Please enter into
the record the copy of the West Yellowstone Chamber of Commerce
letter, a letter from our mayor, a fact sheet from our school,
and a Montana snowmobile study. All bear out the huge financial
impact a ban on snowmobiles would have.
In closing, may I summarize by saying about 95 percent of
the economy in West Yellowstone is tourism-related. The ban on
snowmobiles in Yellowstone will bankrupt many in West
Yellowstone that are based financially on a year-round economy.
It will lower the quality of life for the employees, if not
place some on the unemployment rolls. It will severely strain
the school, town and services in West Yellowstone.
I implore you to take the necessary action to keep
snowmobiles a part of the economy of the West Yellowstone and
Yellowstone area. I thank you for caring enough about us to
invite us here today. I think we should rise above political
agendas and do the things that are right, and it is not right
to financially devastate a community.
I would be happy to answer questions regarding whatever
whenever.
[Mr. Seely's statement may be found in appendix.]
Chairman Manzullo. We appreciate you coming here from
Montana. We will make, of course, your written testimony and
the attachments thereto, including the statement from the Board
of Trustees for Wolverine School District No. 69 in West
Yellowstone, Montana.
The next witness is Bob Stein.
STATEMENT OF BOB STEIN, OWNER, ALGER FALLS MOTEL, MUNISING, MI
Mr. Stein. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the
Committee. I am here today because of the Department of the
Interior's ruling on the banning of snowmobilers in most units
of the National Park System, specifically Miners Castle Road
that is located in the Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore.
Back in 1972, I came to the Upper Peninsula of Michigan
from Chicago, Illinois. My wife and I came to go snowmobiling
and see the Miners Castle, a sandstone rock formation that is
in my opinion the most beautiful part of Pictured Rocks
National Lakeshore. I was extremely impressed with the area and
in 1975 decided to buy the Alger Falls Motel, a 17-unit motel
located 9 miles south of Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore.
At the time the motel only employed two persons, my wife
and myself, and accounted for less than 10 percent of my total
business.
Since then, by aggressively promoting the area for
snowmobiling, the Miners Castle area has become the flagship
for all advertising in Alger County. The closing of the parks
to snowmobiling is the worst threat to my business that I can
imagine. The mere mention of these trail closures has prompted
numerous concerned calls and letters from customers and
residents alike.
Snowmobiling has always been permitted in the area that is
now known as the Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore. Slowly, one
by one, the places that were once open to snowmobiles have been
closed down. Snowmobiles are now only allowed in the Miners
Castle area on roads that are open to all vehicles. Roads are
not plowed in the winter and no damage is done, for there needs
to be at least 8 inches of snow on the road before grooming can
take place.
Two years ago, we started grooming the Miners Castle Road,
pleasing the tourists and the locals alike who can now
experience the beauty of the castle during snow covered months,
which in a climate such as ours can account for as much as 6
months of the year. Few people could make the seven-mile walk
up the road to see the beauty of this piece of scenery. The
road is presently open to all users in the winter, motorized
and nonmotorized. The closure would affect only snowmobiles.
The only other way that this landmark can be seen is from
Lake Superior, and due to the treacherous conditions of the ice
this method is very hazardous. Although it would be impossible
to predict because the area has always been open, I would
expect a decline of at least 30 percent in my winter business
from this. My motel now employs four persons. That would have
to be dropped to two and a half persons. There would be a
significant decrease in my season's occupancy and I am sure
other businesses, be it hotels, restaurants, gift shops, would
see the same effect. This would be devastating to the local
economy that is dependent on the tourism this trail helps to
attract.
Again, I cannot emphasize too greatly that this threat is
the biggest problem that I can imagine for my business. My
daughter and her husband are now contemplating buying my motel
after I have been in business for 25 years. If this trail is
closed, it would not be possible for them to purchase the
motel. They would have to leave the area. My family would break
up.
My business has experienced years where there was lack of
snow and bad economy. These are factors we cannot control. As a
community we suffered together and held on until the next year
with hopes that the weather and the economy would be on our
side. The closing of these parks is something we cannot control
and are trying to keep open the parks to snowmobiles.
In closing, I would hope that the Miners Castle trail and
the Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore remains open to
snowmobiling so those of us who live here in that area may
continue to make a living and people may experience the beauty
of the Pictured Rocks no matter what the season. Thank you for
the opportunity to be here.
[Mr. Stein's statement may be found in appendix.]
Chairman Manzullo. Thank you, Bob. I appreciate it. Our
next witness is John Lyon. Mr. Lyon.
STATEMENT OF JOHN LYON, OWNER, J&J SPORT, SYCAMORE, IL
Mr. Lyon. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Committee members,
for the opportunity to address you today. I am John Lyon. I am
a small business owner from Sycamore, Illinois, a rural
community in northern Illinois. We own and operate the oldest
Yamaha dealership in the State of Illinois and we are one of
the original Yamaha motorized dealers in the Nation.
We are, similar to many other small businesses involved in
the snowmobile industry. What we are really proudest of
ourselves is that our dealership is rated number one in the
State of Illinois in customer satisfaction and we have
maintained that rating for a number of years. We have a pretty
good feel for what our customers want and what the snowmobilers
desire.
I am also involved to a greater degree in snowmobiling, in
that I am a volunteer for the Illinois Association of
Snowmobile Clubs. I have been on that association's board for 8
years and for the past 3 years I have been its president. I am
very concerned about what happens to our friends who enjoy the
winter sports and enjoy being out there on their snowmobiles.
In Illinois, we have 58,000 registered snowmobiles. We are
not the largest in those numbers, but we are the fifth largest
snow state in the country.
Snowmobilers very much enjoy the mobility of being out in
the wilderness, and we are truly environmentalists. We are very
concerned about where we use our snowmobiles and we are out
there to see the winter beauty.
Because of the need to find a place to operate a
snowmobile, we are a very mobile group. It is not a problem for
us to travel many hours to find an enjoyable place to ride. So
even though we do not have a national park in Illinois where we
can snowmobile, it is not a problem for us to travel 6, 8 hours
or 25 hours to the Yellowstone area to enjoy the winter
splendor.
Of concern to us is a statement that was made by Mr. Barry.
He said that the snowmobile industry had many years to clean up
their act and that they hadn't. This really is not the case. We
are very concerned about what goes on and the industry
actually, since 1994, has reduced emissions of snowmobiles by
50 percent.
It is probably one of the few industries that actually went
to EPA and said ``regulate us'' and EPA said we do not have any
way to do that. And the industry went out on their own and
helped have testing developed so the EPA could regulate the
industry and give us some standards so that we know where we
are going.
Mr. Barry's statements will most assuredly have a negative
effect on the small snowmobile business. The small snowmobile
business in the United States accounts for about 2,000
dealerships. These dealerships employ roughly 20,000 people.
And on the tourism and outside part of it, there are 65,000
additional jobs. In our personal business, one-third of our
revenue is derived from snowmobile sales, service, and related
accessories, which would include things like trailers to make
our snowmobile experience mobile.
In our four-state area, snowmobiling is a $3 billion
business. It is roughly half of the U.S. effect of snowmobile
tourism and a third of the international business.
This is a family sport. This is something for everyone in a
family group to enjoy. The average age of the snowmobile owner
is 41 years, so they are fairly stable people. The annual
family income of that group is $60,000. Snowmobiles are known
as money spenders in the tourism business. Unlike other groups,
snowmobilers are not afraid to spend some money when they go to
use their snowmobile.
In the United States last year, there were 137,000
snowmobiles sold, new snowmobiles. That is 65 percent of the
world market. This country is the snowmobile capital of the
world. In the United States, there are roughly 2.3 million
snowmobiles registered at this time.
Chairman Manzullo. John, you have got 20 seconds to wind
up.
Mr. Lyon. 80 percent of snowmobile operations is on groomed
trails or roads. And we as a group believe in good valid
science, we want to be respected users of the land, and we are
here to do anything we can to help you make a decision on the
proper use. Thank you.
[Mr. Lyon's statement may be found in appendix.]
Chairman Manzullo. Thank you very much. Congresswoman
McCarthy has another hearing. Why don't you go first.
Mrs. McCarthy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Collins, I just
want to follow up on some of the things that you had said.
Obviously, after hearing all the testimony, your job certainly
is to protect our land, and I agree with you on that. But being
that, you know, this regulation has come down without really
any warning to anybody, and did I misunderstand when you said
that this was only going to affect Yellowstone, or is this
going to affect all of our national parks?
Mr. Collins. There are two processes occurring roughly
simultaneously. Yellowstone and Grand Teton are going through a
winter use plan development, which Senator Thomas referred to.
Separate from that, the Park Service is in the process of
putting together a proposed rule that would deal with the other
25 some national parks that authorize snowmobile use.
Mrs. McCarthy. May I follow up on that? Being that the
national parks are for everyone, and they are, when you were
coming up with deciding to come through with these regulations
did you not think that it might be a good idea to have the
input of those that would be affected by it mostly, especially
those that are snowmobilers and those that are in the business?
And I know it is not up to the national parks to be concerned
about the businesses in the area, but one thing I have found
out about being down here in Washington, lack of communication
and education of people is sorely lacking.
Could this not have been avoided by meeting with everyone,
whether here on the Congressional side or on the Senate side,
to work it out before it came down to this, where everybody is
so contentious about it because you are going to affect
livelihoods?
Mr. Collins. I need to make clear that I do not represent
the National Park Service. We are a private nonprofit advocacy
group.
Mrs. McCarthy. I apologize.
Mr. Collins. That is okay. I will say that the Park Service
at Yellowstone went through an exhaustive public comment--
public hearing comment process. They got about 46,000 comments
on the Yellowstone plan. For the other issue here for the other
national parks, that the Park Service surrender a legal
responsibility to follow the directives that are in a couple of
executive orders, the Code of Federal Regulation, the organic
act that controls the national parks, and that is what they are
trying to do is respond to those legal requirements, and as I
said, they have not made a final decision they are coming out
with a proposed rule.
Essentially what they have said is we have looked at
regulations that govern snowmobiles. We are not in compliance.
We need to figure out a way to get into this compliance.
Mrs. McCarthy. Going back to Yellowstone and the area that
you are definitely going to be closing off, do you have any
estimate on how many snowmobiles go into that area?
Mr. Collins. On an average winter roughly 65 to 70,000
something like that. Just in the park.
Mrs. McCarthy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Manzullo. Thank you, Mrs. McCarthy. Mr. Thune, do
you have any questions you wanted to ask?
Mr. Thune. Mr. Chairman, I would just again comment on--I
think this sort of ties into another issue that is impacting my
State right now and another issue which Dr. Abbott is
acquainted with because his original home town is Yankton, and
that is the personal watercraft ban. And I think what Senator
Thomas was alluding to earlier is this precedent that
establishes in terms of the process by which these decisions
are being made and these regulations are being proposed. And I
guess that to me is one issue. The policy is another issue.
But frankly, I have been very concerned about the process
that has been employed. And I would suggest just to the panel,
and perhaps ask a question about how might we better
incorporate the suggestions and input of you all in doing this
so that the people who are impacted by the decisions that are
being made actually have an opportunity to talk about what
impact that will have?
There is going to be a comment period, obviously, if and
when they propose this regulation. But would you be in favor of
some public hearings? I mean, how can the stakeholders, the
people who are impacted, the small businesses that are out
there that we are concerned about, actually have a voice in
what is being done here? Anybody care to answer that?
Mr. Lyon. I would believe that what we are doing here today
is a beginning of that and that most of us small business
owners have never been involved in this sort of thing. My
involvement today comes from the fact that we came to
Washington in the fall and learned a lot about what goes on and
now that something is really impacting us, it is time for us as
small businesses to make a decision to get involved in our
government if we really knew how it worked.
And so I would say that from our side, we need to better
educate our fellow businesspeople as to what is going on and
try to get input to you and let them realize that you want our
input. And I don't know how to get that really initiated so
maybe if we had some in put from you, if we had public
hearings, we could get more people involved. They have stayed
away from it because it has not directly affected them. And now
there is a direct effect coming that we are very concerned will
be a trickle down into the other industries. In our business we
do not just sell snowmobiles, we sell ATVs and motorcycles and
all the related products, and the concern is if this action can
happen at this time it can happen to everybody else, including
people on snowshoes.
So I really do not have an answer to your question, other
than we want to be involved, we need to be educated on how to
be very involved.
Mr. Thune. Has there been any, that you are aware of,
interest on behalf of the Small Business Administration in
terms of examining this? Has it sort of been--has the SBA--and
I don't know the answer to that, maybe the chairman does, but
are any of you aware--because that is the job that they are
responsible for as an agency of the government, is to determine
what impact some of these things will have on small businesses?
Mr. Lyon. I am not aware.
Mr. Collins. Congressman, may I address your first
question? I would just like to say that we are fully supportive
of the public comment process because it offers us an
opportunity as well to get our views in, and I think that
process will be extraordinarily extensive. If the demand merits
it, I suspect there will be public hearings. It is an
opportunity really for everybody to weigh in, snowshoers,
environmentalists, manufacturers, snowmobilers. It is an even
playing field for everyone and we are all going to take
advantage of it.
Mr. Seely. May I respond to that as well? We have offered
on numerous occasions to meet with the local Park Service and
sit down and get things out on the table and work out a
solution to the problem. We have been ignored. It seems to me
that part of the problem is they make a decision, this is where
we are going, but they haven't figured out how to get there.
They are using Alternative G now, but it does not work. They
haven't asked anybody yet why or how the snowcoach alternative
is going to work.
And there needs to be that process of on the ground people
working with them, with firsthand knowledge, to help them
arrive at a solution that works instead of picking one and then
hoping that it will work. We have had no response, but I might
add within the last couple of weeks, we have had a listening
ear and we hope that will continue.
Mr. Thune. I would, Mr. Chairman--I think that is a great
suggestion, probably too intuitively obvious but we ought to
have the stakeholders sit down with the agencies that are
supposedly--and see, obviously, there is a set of objectives
here that they are trying to reach but there are also a lot of
consequences that I don't think they have anticipated, and I
think the people who are impacted by those consequences need to
be at the table. And as far as the public process is concerned,
I think that is why the hearing that you are having today is
important because it does give us another forum in which to
have some of these issues raised and questions asked, and I
would hope that that would continue.
And I think as the representatives of the people, and the
Congress, that we ought to have a role in trying to resolve
this issue in a way that minimizes the disruption and negative
economic impact that could be felt by a lot of the people at
the table this morning. And I would say, too, as someone who
comes from South Dakota, that tourism is critical in our state
and at this time of the year, summer tourism, and as President
Abbott noted in his testimony, that is very important. But we
also have significant winter month tourism into the Black Hills
of South Dakota and beyond, heading out into some of your
states and we all benefit from the economic activity that that
generates.
So this is a serious economic issue in terms of the way
that it impacts. It is also, I think, an issue of public access
to public grounds, properties, and for recreational use. And
that is the broader issue which we are getting into on a lot of
other levels right now with personal watercraft, but I
appreciate your testimony. It is certainly enlightening in
bringing us up to speed what some of those impacts are. And I
would also suggest that if you have data--some of you indicated
in your testimony that the facts that are being put out there
are not representative of the actual reality--I think we need
to get what that data is. We want to obviously ensure that the
right information and the decisions are made based upon good
information, so to the degree that you could furnish that I
would welcome that, and I yield back.
Chairman Manzullo. Congressman Thune, I appreciate that. I
would stress that the reason that we are having this hearing is
that the people impacted have been denied any opportunity to
get their voice involved in the governmental process. When Mr.
Lyon was in our office, last October, we chatted generally
about different things. Then when this notice came down in
April, our office contacted you and said there is something
significant going on that could destroy the industry and your
industry had been blind-sided by it.
So that is why we are having you here. It is a shame. It is
a tragedy that we have to have a congressional hearing in order
to hold fairness going into a decision that tremendously
impacts your livelihood.
Congressman Hinojosa.
Mr. Hinojosa. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I agree that the
presenters have given good input, certainly very informative to
me. I come from an area of the country that does not have snow
and, therefore, I did not know many of the things that I heard
this morning. I have a lot of respect for entrepreneurs and
those risk takers that set up businesses and make their
livelihood the way you do.
I have a couple of questions, I will address them to Clyde
Seely. I know that from listening to and reading some of the
material that was given to us for this hearing that there are
people who claim that wildlife is heavily impacted. In the area
that I come from, tourism is very important. Hunting is very
important. And so I took interest in some of the material that
was given to us to read. Many small businesses in the West and
Northwest, especially in Montana, gain huge revenues from
hunting. And during that season, if there are constant groups
of recreational snowmobilers, it will create difficulties for
those hunters.
My question to you is are there any public lands in which
the local or State governments restrict snowmobiling use on
public lands during hunting season because of the adverse
impact on hunting game?
Mr. Seely. That does not happen very often there. Of
course, we are talking about Yellowstone mainly here, and of
course there is no hunting in Yellowstone. In Forest
Servicesurrounding Yellowstone, it is not a very sportsman like thing
to do, to go hunting on snowmobiles. I am not aware that that happens a
lot. I am not sure what kind of an impact it would have--if it does one
way or another.
Mr. Hinojosa. Another question also for you, Clyde. Do you
believe that an economic impact analysis should also include
the economic costs of continuing the snowmobiling in national
parks, including the cost of pollution, the cost to wildlife,
and the cost of the degradation of the national park itself and
how that will impact future attraction?
Mr. Seely. Yes, I always believe in good studies and good
science. But the problem is in the past some of it has not been
good science and most, underline ``most,'' of the information
that is out there today is antiquated. It is not current. It is
not accurate.
But I believe there is a real need to get accurate, current
information. That is the answer to the first part.
Mr. Hinojosa. Well, I understand. We both agree then that
we do need that economic impact analysis to be able to make
good decisions. Mr. Chairman, I cannot help but agree with you
that we need to have public hearings for stakeholders and that
we hear both sides, that we try to find consensus where this
industry can survive but that we also respect those visitors to
the public lands. I think that we also have a responsibility to
listen to their concerns and to make sure that they are also
heard and that their wishes are also respected.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Manzullo. That is a very interesting set of
questions. Do you have ATVs that go across the lands there in
your congressional district, Congressman? All-terrain vehicles
or motor bikes in your part of the country?
Mr. Hinojosa. Well, hunting in south Texas is done slightly
differently. We do a lot of walking for the bird hunting, and
we have to do a totally different type when we are hunting for
deer. So, you know, the vehicles that we get to, our pickups,
jeeps, that is the answer to your question.
Chairman Manzullo. You have a congressional district that
still has a tremendous amount of unemployment. Is that correct?
Mr. Hinojosa. Yes, we are celebrating the lowest
unemployment rate in 30 years. This last month it was 12.5.
Chairman Manzullo. We really appreciate your insights.
Congressman Chabot.
Mr. Chabot. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will be brief. I
apologize for not being here to hear the testimony but I will
review the testimony. We unfortunately around here have three
hearings going on at the same time and you obviously can't be
in more than one place, so you get parts of each one of them.
My principal comment would be--and I do not necessarily
have any questions, but this is not particularly unusual--what
has happened over time is Congress has turned over its power to
a bunch of Federal agencies and they have run amuck in all
kinds of areas. And oftentimes even though there is a public
comment period because by law they are supposed to hear from
the public, they pretty much have in mind what they want to do,
and to comply with the law they will hold a hearing here and
there and listen to people but they really know what they want
to do.
And I think that is not the way that our Founding Fathers
ever intended this country to be run. I think they intended for
the public to elect people to make the decisions on their
behalf. And if the people did not like the decisions that their
elected officials were making they would get rid of them. But
in essence what we have done over time is we have given up that
right to a bureaucracy which is extremely powerful and over
time perhaps we can make some changes in that area, but it has
been very slow.
I certainly do sympathize with many particularly small
business owners that have been very adversely impacted over
time with a whole range of government agencies, not just the
Park Service. You have the EPA and OSHA and many others who
make decisions and really oftentimes just do not look at the
impacts that it will have on people's jobs and people's lives.
Not to say that those agencies do not do an awful lot of good.
I have kids. I want them to breathe clean air and drink clean
water as well. So there are environmental things that we need
to take into consideration. But I sympathize to a considerable
degree with the testimony that I understand that you all made
today.
I want to thank the chairman for holding this hearing, and
I would like to see more of these. I think it is very
important. Thank you.
Chairman Manzullo. We should have a hearing out in
Yellowstone in the height of the snowmobile season.
I have several questions here, but I would like to do
something a little bit unusual. Mr. Collins, I do not want to
put you on the spot. Unfortunately, in our country there is
this tremendous divide between the people that use the word
``environmentalists'' and people that are involved in
businesses. I have a 14-year-old with asthma. My wife is a
microbiologist. We raise cattle, and we have obviously a
tremendous interest in keeping the air clean, keeping the creek
clean, and making sure that there is a healthy environmental
balance.
And unfortunately, people cross swords and everybody gets
hurt on both sides. What I would like to do is really open up
the panel here to see if anybody has any questions that they
want to ask anybody else on the panel. Any comment on what Mr.
Collins said or, Mr. Collins, if you have any comment on some
of the other testimony that was given.
Mr. Collins. I guess I do. I have been waiting for someone
to explain to me the clear link between the health of a $9
billion industry and the closing of really a few national parks
to snowmobiles. I guess I should mention that when you look at
the number of use of snowmobiles in national parks, after
Yellowstone, Grand Tetons, Voyageurs, Pictured Rocks, it drops
off to an almost insignificant level.
So--and I understand, I am not saying that there are not
individual businesses that could be severely impacted but I
have heard a lot of statements about the size, importance,
significance of this industry as a whole.
Chairman Manzullo. Mr. Stein, all 10 miles would be closed?
Mr. Stein. That is correct, 10 miles would be closed in
Pictured Rocks.
Chairman Manzullo. Is that 100 percent of the trails in
Pictured Rocks?
Mr. Stein. It is 100 percent of the trails in the park.
Mr. Collins. I would respectfully disagree. It is my
understanding that there are a number of roads in the park over
which the Park Service does not have jurisdiction and so that
even if they wanted to, they would not be able to close that to
snowmobiling.
Mr. Stein. It is a county road that would remain open to
snowmobiling, but it is on a park boundary, I believe. It is
not within the park. Roads within the park would be closed.
Chairman Manzullo. What is the significance of that? This
is a good exchange. It is too bad that it did not take place
before the press release was issued. But go ahead.
Mr. Stein. It is a link in our trail, as you mentioned
before. It is to Miners Castle trail. The entire trail length
is 18 miles long.
Chairman Manzullo. Did you have a picture of his park or
was that just Yellowstone?
Mr. Collins. No, that was just Yellowstone. Sorry.
Chairman Manzullo. Okay. Go ahead, please.
Mr. Stein. And this would close that trail, an 18-mile
trail link, which also 8 miles down that trail links up to
another trail. But it is called the Miners Castle trail because
that is the most important feature on this trail. That is why
people take this. After they do that, then they go ahead and do
other things. But to close that is just cutting off your main
attraction in the area, your flagship. Just the publicity
alone----
Chairman Manzullo. So the Miners Castle Road and the
snowmobile trail that goes by that would be closed.
Mr. Stein. The trail actually runs right up to it. It does
not go by it. It goes up to the Miners Castle, it turns around
in the parking lot that is used to park vehicles all summer,
buses and whatever, and then it returns from that point. The
trail we use, again, it is used by motor vehicles, buses,
trucks, diesel vehicles all summer long, and that is the trail
we use for the few snow covered months of the year.
Chairman Manzullo. Clyde, you have a comment?
Mr. Seely. I would like to take this opportunity to respond
again, to reopen the issue that I brought up about Mr. Collins'
statement. He refers in his testimony to a $5 million impact on
West Yellowstone from Mr. Duffield's study, and it is my
understanding from the State of Wyoming that they receive--they
read that study. They report a $13 million impact on the five
counties, 70 percent of that impact comes through or is
apparent in West Yellowstone, which equates to about $10
million a year and not 5, and that is a significant impact on a
little town of 1,000 people.
The State of Wyoming, using Duffield's own numbers came up
with a $50 million impact. And using their own data, Wyoming's
own data, they come up with the real impact in the five-county
area to be more like $130 to $150 million. And so it is a
significant difference from what has been whitewashed before.
I would like to also call attention to the survey or this
so-called petition that went around. I have read this thing. I
am a supporter of a healthy economy and healthy park, and I
have hardly any problem signing this. There is one little
statement there. This petition does not say anything about
banning snowmobiles. These people are not in favor of banning
snowmobiles. Some of my employees that have signed this. I
wouldn't mind signing it too, with the exception of one little
statement.
He also says that 150 businesses and residents have signed
this petition. 150 businesses? I counted quickly seven
businesses. I count some that have signed twice. It is
ludicrous.
Chairman Manzullo. The chairman is from Chicago. You can
sign as many times as you want. [Laughter.]
Mr. Seely. And then there are some that I can't read. This
is a poor representation of the community. I was involved with
a survey conducted by the Chamber of Commerce and 90 percent of
the respondents of these surveys on two different occasions are
in favor of keeping the snowmobiles in the park, and to
misconstrue this I think is an insult of our intelligence.
Chairman Manzullo. Let me throw something in here. Senator
Thomas said this morning that there has really been a lack of
enforcement of the regulations within the park with regard to
the snowmobiles? Did he say that?
Mr. Seely. The Park Service has admitted that. Don Barry
has admitted that. Mike Finley has admitted that. They have
ignored any regulations that they say they have been mandated
to all these years.
Chairman Manzullo. So this must be the bane of the problem.
And yet there are some parks such as in Mr. Stein's area--is it
Pictured Rocks?
Mr. Stein. Pictured Rocks.
Chairman Manzullo. Was that 10 miles agreed upon by the
people there or was that an order or edict? Do you know how
that came up?
Mr. Stein. As far as I know, that just came up on this
closure order last November or last October. I do the grooming
also for the Park Service. Mr. Gerou grooms through a contract
from the Munising Visitors Bureau and I am president of the
Munising Visitors Bureau. Last October when I got my permit to
groom the trail into the national park they had said it had
been going so good with so few problems that I would not have
to renew it yearly anymore. It was the first time that they
gave me a 2-year permit to groom the trails within the national
park. And then this April we find out that the trails were
closed.
Last October I thought things were going fine. We had no
problem. Nobody ever asked me about it. I have no idea how it
came about other than what I read in the paper. I have still
not been told anything as far as my grooming, except what I see
as far as the closure goes. I have never been notified not to
groom the trail or that we did anything wrong.
Chairman Manzullo. Mr. Collins, do you have a copy of
Duffield's study? Is that readily available? Clyde, have you
read it?
Mr. Seely. I do not have it. I just referred to it through
his statement.
Mr. Collins. I do not have a copy on me. Those numbers are
included in the draft EIS and it is supposed to go to final
fairly soon; is that correct?
Mr. Seely. Yes.
Mr. Collins. Yeah, they are putting the final touches on
the final EIS as we speak.
Chairman Manzullo. Was he hired by the National Park
Service?
Mr. Collins. He was a consultant hired by the National Park
Service.
Chairman Manzullo. For this particular study.
Mr. Collins. Yes.
Chairman Manzullo. Do you know if there were any other
people hired?
Mr. Collins. I don't know.
Chairman Manzullo. Dr. Abbott, you would have been a good
person, with your background, that could have contributed a lot
to this study of impact on economic impact of a snowmobile ban.
Where is John Duffield from?
Mr. Seely. Missoula, Montana.
Chairman Manzullo. It is Missoula, not Manzullo. Does
anybody else have any questions of each other on the panel? Dr.
Abbott?
Dr. Abbott. I guess I would just like to make a couple of
comments. First of all, as someone who does not have a direct
pecuniary interest, I am never sure why a proposed ban has to
be all or nothing. It does not make any sense to me. In our
little area, 30 miles from where I live there is a state park
and a national park that bound each other. And they simply
agreed to have--actually it is watercraft, but all the
watercraft you want above the lake and quarterhorse only below
the lake on the river. Those kinds of compromises make a great
deal of sense to me.
The other thing I would like to comment on is the economic
impact. It seems to be the impression that the only economic
impact that ought to be considered by conservationists is the
entire degradation of the industry. But in effect really small
towns in thinly populated states, often a 15 or 20 percent drop
in business makes a huge difference to the cafes, hotels,
plants, et cetera. We are not talking about whether Mr. X goes
out of business necessarily. We are talking about his ability
to stay open or to close is often 15 or 20 percent margin, not
50 or 75 percent. I think that is an important thing to
consider.
And I also think it is important to consider that not
everybody involved in this issue is a direct stakeholder. There
are also other kinds of people who are involved on the
periphery who do not snowmobile at all, as I do not, nor do
they hunt or anything else, but still consider that they have
an interest in what people are allowed to do in those parks and
I think that has been ignored.
Mr. Collins. May I respond to that?
Chairman Manzullo. Of course.
Mr. Collins. I guess I would respond to the last piece
about how people without a direct interest also have an
interest. And I would argue that one of those categories of
people are visitors, for example, to Yellowstone National Park
who go to Old Faithful, which is one of the most popular
destinations, and in the winter are disturbed by the sound of
snowmobile noise. Now, some people are not and some people are.
But clearly there are a lot of visitors who find the noise of
snowmobiles at Yellowstone in the winter to be an objectionable
part of their experience at the park.
I am not saying that those people have precedence, but
their opinions certainly need to be weighed. So there are a lot
of people out there who are stakeholders.
Chairman Manzullo. I haven't been to the geyser, but it is
my understanding that particular area is loaded with gas
stations, roads, motels and hotels. It is an area that, like it
or not, has become commercialized because it was the first
thing to see out there. But would you do away with the cars,
the motels, the noise, and anything that interferes with the
sound of the geyser?
Mr. Collins. No, I agree that it is currently a built up
area. I would argue, however, that the Park Service is right to
take whatever steps it reasonably can to reduce the impact,
reduce the noise, reduce the disruption.
Chairman Manzullo. It was my understanding that the
complaint about the noise, and I may be wrong, was just that
point in the morning when the snowmobilers got together and
then left and dispersed to go on the various trials. Is that a
correct statement that I just made?
Mr. Collins. It may be correct for some people. For other
people there really is constant noise at Old Faithful all day
from a variety of sources.
Chairman Manzullo. You have been out there.
Mr. Collins. I have been to Old Faithful. Not in the
winter, but there is noise from a variety of sources. And it is
reasonable for the Park Service to look at these noise sources
and say which can we control and how are we going to address
this.
Chairman Manzullo. We have about 5 minutes. Very quickly
now, please discuss the issue about pollution, noise,
antiquated engines of the snowmobiles. I think you had
mentioned that in your written statement.
Mr. Seely. May I respond to that?
Chairman Manzullo. Yes, quickly.
Mr. Seely. The community of West Yellowstone has been very
proactive in handling this problem. We began using ethanol in
all of our rental snowmobiles 2 years ago, which cuts the
pollution down by 35 percent. We began as a community, it was
our direction, our initiative, to begin preselling park passes
so that the machine would not have to stop and wait in front of
the ranger's station. So now they use express lanes and go
right on through.
Arctic Cat, who supplies our snowmobiles has come out with
a four-stroke snowmobile. They will provide 50 of those to us
next winter, and the following winter as many as we want, as
many as the town wants that no longer burns oil. It is a four-
stroke snowmobile. It burns only gasoline. Their economy is
increased three times. The noise--Don Barry and I had our own
little experiment. The noise decreases by three times with the
four-stroke versus the two-stroke. In a year or two you will
see technology of the snowmobile manufacturers changed
drastically and they will come in compliance with the
constraints of the Park Service.
Chairman Manzullo. John, do you have a statement?
Mr. Lyon. I just had one quick statement. In Illinois there
are 2,500 miles of trails and 2,250 miles are on private lands.
We are responsible users or those landowners wouldn't let us be
there if we did not take care of their property.
Chairman Manzullo. We have to wind this up. I want to thank
all of you. This has been a super hearing. Mr. Collins, I
really appreciate your minority status here, but this did not
turn out to be anything other than a real meeting of people
with genuine interests. I think we have all learned a lot of
things here. We have learned about links of the National Park
System with the state parks and the emphasis on them. We have
learned about tremendous new technologies that cut down on the
noise, and dramatically decreases the pollution levels.
I would hope that organizations such as yours, Mr. Collins,
perhaps might be open to further restrictions, which the
industry has been asking for itself, rather than an outright
ban on snowmobiles. I would suggest that all of us keep an open
mind and perhaps somewhere down the line this thing could be
worked out to the benefit of the environment and to the people
who live near the parks.
Again, thank you very much for coming. I can't tell you how
much I appreciate it. The subcommittee is adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 11:45 a.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]
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