[House Hearing, 106 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]



 
 DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR AND RELATED AGENCIES APPROPRIATIONS FOR 2000

_______________________________________________________________________

                                HEARINGS

                                BEFORE A

                           SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE

                       COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS

                         HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                       ONE HUNDRED SIXTH CONGRESS
                              FIRST SESSION

                                ________

   SUBCOMMITTEE ON THE DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR AND RELATED AGENCIES

                      RALPH REGULA, Ohio, Chairman
 JIM KOLBE, Arizona                 NORMAN D. DICKS, Washington
 JOE SKEEN, New Mexico              JOHN P. MURTHA, Pennsylvania
 CHARLES H. TAYLOR, North Carolina  JAMES P. MORAN, Virginia
 GEORGE R. NETHERCUTT, Jr.,         ROBERT E. ``BUD'' CRAMER, Jr.,
Washington                            Alabama
 ZACH WAMP, Tennessee               MAURICE D. HINCHEY, New York
 JACK KINGSTON, Georgia
 JOHN E. PETERSON, Pennsylvania     

 NOTE: Under Committee Rules, Mr. Young, as Chairman of the Full 
Committee, and Mr. Obey, as Ranking Minority Member of the Full 
Committee, are authorized to sit as Members of all Subcommittees.
   Deborah Weatherly, Loretta Beaumont, Joel Kaplan, and Christopher 
                                 Topik,
                            Staff Assistants

                                ________

                                 PART 8
                                                                   Page
 U.S. Geological Survey...........................................    1
 Minerals Management Service......................................   93
 Office of Surface Mining Reclamation and Enforcement.............  117
 Bureau of Indian Affairs.........................................  153
 Office of Special Trustee for American Indians...................  231
 National Indian Gaming Commission................................  243
 Office of Insular Affairs........................................  255
 DOI Departmental Management......................................  291
 Office of the Inspector General..................................  305
 Natural Resource Damage Assessment and Restoration...............  313
 Indian Health Service............................................  321

                                ________

                     U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
 57-140                     WASHINGTON : 1999


                        COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS

                   C. W. BILL YOUNG, Florida, Chairman

 RALPH REGULA, Ohio                    DAVID R. OBEY, Wisconsin
 JERRY LEWIS, California               JOHN P. MURTHA, Pennsylvania
 JOHN EDWARD PORTER, Illinois          NORMAN D. DICKS, Washington
 HAROLD ROGERS, Kentucky               MARTIN OLAV SABO, Minnesota
 JOE SKEEN, New Mexico                 JULIAN C. DIXON, California
 FRANK R. WOLF, Virginia               STENY H. HOYER, Maryland
 TOM DeLAY, Texas                      ALAN B. MOLLOHAN, West Virginia
 JIM KOLBE, Arizona                    MARCY KAPTUR, Ohio
 RON PACKARD, California               NANCY PELOSI, California
 SONNY CALLAHAN, Alabama               PETER J. VISCLOSKY, Indiana
 JAMES T. WALSH, New York              NITA M. LOWEY, New York
 CHARLES H. TAYLOR, North Carolina     JOSE E. SERRANO, New York
 DAVID L. HOBSON, Ohio                 ROSA L. DeLAURO, Connecticut
 ERNEST J. ISTOOK, Jr., Oklahoma       JAMES P. MORAN, Virginia
 HENRY BONILLA, Texas                  JOHN W. OLVER, Massachusetts
 JOE KNOLLENBERG, Michigan             ED PASTOR, Arizona
 DAN MILLER, Florida                   CARRIE P. MEEK, Florida
 JAY DICKEY, Arkansas                  DAVID E. PRICE, North Carolina
 JACK KINGSTON, Georgia                CHET EDWARDS, Texas
 RODNEY P. FRELINGHUYSEN, New Jersey   ROBERT E. ``BUD'' CRAMER, Jr.,
 ROGER F. WICKER, Mississippi            Alabama
 MICHAEL P. FORBES, New York           JAMES E. CLYBURN, South Carolina
 GEORGE R. NETHERCUTT, Jr.,            MAURICE D. HINCHEY, New York
Washington                             LUCILLE ROYBAL-ALLARD, California
 RANDY ``DUKE'' CUNNINGHAM,            SAM FARR, California
California                             JESSE L. JACKSON, Jr., Illinois
 TODD TIAHRT, Kansas                   CAROLYN C. KILPATRICK, Michigan
 ZACH WAMP, Tennessee                  ALLEN BOYD, Florida
 TOM LATHAM, Iowa
 ANNE M. NORTHUP, Kentucky
 ROBERT B. ADERHOLT, Alabama
 JO ANN EMERSON, Missouri
 JOHN E. SUNUNU, New Hampshire
 KAY GRANGER, Texas
 JOHN E. PETERSON, Pennsylvania     
                                    

                 James W. Dyer, Clerk and Staff Director

                                  (ii)



DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR AND RELATED AGENCIES APPROPRIATIONS FOR 2000

                              ----------                              

                                           Tuesday, March 16, 1999.

                         U.S. GEOLOGICAL SURVEY

                               WITNESSES

CHARLES G. GROAT, DIRECTOR
THOMAS J. CASADEVALL, DEPUTY DIRECTOR
BONNIE A. McGREGOR, ASSOCIATE DIRECTOR, PROGRAMS
BARBARA J. RYAN, ASSOCIATE DIRECTOR, OPERATIONS
JAMES F. DEVINE, SENIOR ADVISOR FOR SCIENTIFIC APPLICATIONS
MARTIN E. ECKES, CHIEF, PROGRAM OPERATIONS OFFICE
DENNIS B. FENN, CHIEF, BIOLOGICAL RESOURCES DIVISION
ROBERT M. HIRSCH, CHIEF, WATER RESOURCES DIVISION
PHILLIP PATRICK LEAHY, CHIEF, GEOLOGIC DIVISION
JAMES L. LEUPOLD, CHIEF, OFFICE OF PROGRAM SUPPORT
RICHARD E. WITMER, CHIEF, NATIONAL MAPPING DIVISION
JOHN D. TREZISE, DIRECTOR OF BUDGET, DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR

                             Introductions

    Mr. Regula [presiding]. Okay, we'll get this hearing 
started.
    Thank you for coming, and welcome to all of you. I won't 
attempt to run through the list here. I understand, Mr. 
Director, you'll call on people, if needed, for responses. Your 
full testimony will be made a part of the record and you can 
summarize for us if you choose.


                            opening remarks


    Dr. Groat. Thank you, Mr. Regula. Mr. Regula, Mr. Skeen, 
thanks for the opportunity to talk to you about our Fiscal Year 
2000 budget. I certainly will just hit some high points for 
you.
    First of all, I'm a new director with a budget that has a 
new look to you, and I guess I'm in part responsible for that. 
In addition to asking for $40 million above our funding base 
last year----
    Mr. Regula. That's not much different than in the past. 
[Laughter.]
    Dr. Groat. Okay. Well, that's not new then.
    Mr. Regula. No, it's not.
    Mr. Skeen. I like your approach, though. [Laughter.]
    Dr. Groat. Asking for less would be new. But the budget 
does look different, and I think for the committee and for our 
friends and partners to take a quick look at our budget and see 
all the negative lines in programs would be a cause for some 
concern, looking like there had been a blood bath at the U.S. 
Geological Survey when in fact it's actually a product of some 
very willful restructuring that's intended to do two or three 
things. I'll just hit the high points.
    No. 1 is just make how we spend our money more obvious and 
more evident to people who we do business with by pulling 
administrative costs and facilities costs out----
    Mr. Regula. There's more detail.


                           integrated science


    Dr. Groat. Much more detailed, and it's clear when you see 
program dollars, those are indeed program dollars. They're not 
dollars that are going for facilities and operations.
    The other thing we did was to take a growing trend in our 
programs and our partners' programs called Integrated Science, 
where we really try to bring our division people together, and 
pull the money that was being used for joint efforts out so it 
could be jointly assessed because as it's worked through our 
structure now, it makes that difficult. We want to facilitate 
people working together and so we've created an Integrated 
Science line.
    If you look at the net effect on all of our programs in our 
budget with the negative numbers, the fact is that certainly 
there are some program changes within the budget and some of 
those are decreases. But most of the decreases you see are due 
to the restructuring. The same dollars are there. They're going 
to serve the same purposes. We've just chosen to present it a 
little bit different and to manage it a little bit different. 
And I think in the long-run it's going to be good not only for 
us but for our cooperators and it certainly will make your job 
easier in trying to figure out what we're really up to and how 
we're spending our money.


                       investment in information


    The other few points I would make in terms of the budget 
for this year: we're making a significant investment in trying 
to make our information both high-quality, as it has always 
been, and more accessible to people. Not that we're becoming an 
information agency certainly, but good science funded by the 
public needs to be well-used. So we not only have to be sure we 
meet societal needs, and we put a very strong effort of up-
front planning in our programs to make sure all the 
constituents are involved, but it also has to be communicated 
to them in a way that they can use it. And I don't think a 
science organization funded by the Government wants to be 
accused of doing its science and keeping it under a bushel. And 
with all the communication tools we have these days from the 
Internet to fancy videos and graphics, we need to make sure 
that our customers do get the information in a form they can 
use it.
    So through programs like the Disaster Information Network, 
where information saves lives, through the Community Federal 
Information Partnership, we're able to work with customers and 
clients, not only organize their information so it goes out 
well, but to help them be able to use it in an effective way.
    We're also seeking in a modest way to improve the ways we 
gather information, that is through real time hazards 
instrumentation which needs a much more serious boost than 
we're able to give it this year, but at least we're 
incrementally trying to work on that.


             department of the interior science priorities


    We're also trying very hard in our support of the 
Department of the Interior Management bureaus. The Secretary 
feels, and it's always been an important role of the USGS, that 
our science serve land and resource management bureaus within 
the Department of the Interior. We've always spent a lot of 
money on that, but this year we have a request for $15 million 
additional dollars specifically tailored to integrated programs 
where we work with their program managers to define what their 
needs are, not only in biology or hydrology singly, but where 
all the elements come together so that we can help them make 
better decisions. Helping those bureaus is not a new approach 
for us. This approach to doing it is a new approach, and I 
think it's a taste of what's going to be in the future for many 
of our programs.
    Mr. Regula. Well, this is consistent with our having put 
the National Biological Service within your agency, am I 
correct?
    Dr. Groat. Very much so. The National Biological Service 
brought a strong tradition of service to those bureaus with 
them, and we're trying to broadcast that across our whole 
organization and take advantage of their experience and their 
capabilities.
    Mr. Regula. I assume you don't reinvent the wheel as you 
get requests from different agencies, something you've done for 
this agency may be useful to another?
    Dr. Groat. Absolutely. And that's the importance of 
coordinating it with those agencies as we do it, and we're 
working very hard to do that.


                           budget highlights


    Those are really the highlights of our budget. I think the 
structure is something that is an important change. I think our 
emphasis on making our science effective is important, as in 
our emphasis on cooperative science, where the different 
disciplines work together to solve very complex problems. Every 
day, we come across new examples of challenges that are much 
broader than any single discipline. With all the talent we have 
now, especially since we've had the Biological Resources 
Division, we have all the tools. Now we have to, through our 
budget structure and our program planning, make sure the tools 
work together very well and serve real needs. And that's the 
big emphasis in our programs in general and in our budget this 
year.
    I think those are the highlights, Mr. Chairman. I would be 
happy to answer any questions that you have.
    [The statement of Dr. Groat follows:]

[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                          fixed cost increase

    Mr. Regula. Thank you. I have a couple of questions, and 
then I will go to the other members. Your $40 million increase, 
how much of that is fixed costs?
    Dr. Groat. Increased? Well, we have within that our 
uncontrollable costs which allow us about $18 million.

                        net programmatic change

    Mr. Regula. So you're talking basically about $22 million 
for new programs?
    Dr. Groat. Program purposes, right.
    Mr. Regula. For expansion of existing programs?
    Dr. Groat. Right.

                      receipts from product sales

    Mr. Regula. When you sell information, maps, et cetera, do 
you get paid actual costs? Your services to the private sector, 
are they pretty much billed out at what it costs to produce 
them?
    Dr. Groat. Yes, I think by law, we're only allowed to 
recover actual costs of reproduction and distribution. So 
there's no profit built into the cost.
    Mr. Regula. But you're not subsidizing them?
    Dr. Groat. No, no, that's correct.

                   non-federal and state partnerships

    Mr. Regula. I'm interested in your partnerships with States 
and/or the private sector? Wherever possible have you developed 
partnerships to maximize your resources?
    Dr. Groat. I believe we have, Mr. Regula. I think looking 
at how we're planning our programs now and who is at the table 
when we actually design programs, we're making a very conscious 
effort to make sure that the private sector is there because 
there are many things that they should do that are beyond the 
Federal mandate and the Federal role and therefore they should 
be counted on to do it. And I think the fact that we have over 
40 CRADA's, Cooperative Research and Development Agreements, 
with the private sector is an indication that it's working and 
that we are finding those effective kind of partnerships, 
particularly in programs that do involve where information 
meets decisions, where they're very effective in adding value 
to the process.
    Mr. Regula. I know of one in California. I think they had a 
three-way partnership between the university, the county and 
the USGS and maybe the State in the earthquake program.
    Dr. Groat. Oh, yes, yes.
    Mr. Regula. It seemed to be a very efficient way of giving 
an early warning system, if you will.
    Dr. Groat. That's the key, bringing those people who need 
to be warned and who are the response agencies into the 
planning at the very early stages and that includes the private 
sector.

                   contracting of mapping activities

    Mr. Regula. The staff just pointed out that you contract 
out your mapping, at least 50 percent of it, which is probably 
an efficient way to do it.
    Dr. Groat. The National Mapping Division is certainly in 
the lead as far as working with the private sector and using 
them as the implementators of programs, yes.

                            hazards research

    Mr. Regula. We have ever changing hazards. Do you have any 
high-priority hazard research that you think that is going 
unfunded because we're going into non-critical work? Are you 
trying to prioritize in that sense?
    Dr. Groat. I think programs that we have that affect human 
lives and safety have to be our highest priority. And hazards 
are the ones that are on the most front-lines there. A lot of 
other things that we do are more subtle and more long-term.
    Mr. Regula. Well, do you feel you have the resources to do 
the ultra-hazard research that's important to what you're 
saying is your highest priority, human lives?
    Dr. Groat. I think we have the resources to do an adequate 
job. I think we're falling behind in the big picture of making 
sure that those detectors of problems, such as streamgages, 
seismometers, and so forth, are state-of-the-art and are as 
well-disbursed as they need to be. Unfortunately, that's not a 
small thing where $2 million or $3 million a year makes a big 
difference. That's going to take the kind of proportion 
investment that we're making in the Highway Trust Fund, for 
example, to do that right. I think that's our biggest 
challenge. Our science is good. Our technology is good. Our 
tools are getting old.
    Mr. Regula. Mr. Skeen.
    Mr. Skeen. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Dr. Groat, it's good to 
see you again.
    Dr. Groat. It's good to see you.

                    water resources research program

    Mr. Skeen. I guess the most important resource, I imagine, 
particularly from our part of the country and I see that you're 
requesting a little over $5 million for the State's water 
resources research programs. Are you proposing any changes in 
this program?
    Dr. Groat. No, sir, I think probably better than at any 
time in our past, the relationship between those institutes and 
the USGS is on a good note. I met with that group last week and 
had a chance to discuss programs with them. And we're making 
sure that they are in the budget, that they are getting funded. 
We are working more closely than ever before in coming up with 
research agendas that we both speak to that meet real needs. So 
I feel very comfortable with that program and think that it has 
excellent leadership. And the leadership in our program has the 
right attitude. It really embodies what we're trying to do more 
of and that is partnering with universities and other agencies 
in getting our work done.
    Mr. Skeen. I think that has proven to be very important and 
also very productive.
    Dr. Groat. No question.
    Mr. Skeen. Your Section 104(g) Competitive Grants Program, 
what are your plans for that program? Is this part of it?
    Dr. Groat. I think that program is on a firm foundation and 
if we're looking for future increases in effectiveness, that's 
one area that could grow. And I think it has gotten well-
grounded with the universities now. They're comfortable with 
it. But, of course, with any program of that type, it never has 
enough money, but it's a good program.
    Mr. Skeen. We never have enough money, do we?
    Dr. Groat. Never do.
    Mr. Skeen. Never have enough water either?
    Dr. Groat. Water, maybe more importantly, yes.
    Mr. Skeen. We'll take the water over money.
    Dr. Groat. Absolutely, especially in your part of the 
country.
    Mr. Regula. We have several pints we'll send you, Joe.

                     water research accomplishments

    Mr. Skeen. Yes, if you got any to spare, well, send it.
    Can you give me some examples of the accomplishments of 
this program, new techniques in mapping water resources, 
particularly in underground water, things of that nature?
    Dr. Groat. One thing we've done with that program is 
developed a joint priority agenda that they use in deciding 
what grants to fund. And some of the most important in future 
areas I think are in the area of ground water. We've been very 
active--we seem to spend a lot of money and a lot of effort 
looking at surface water resources because they're obvious, but 
particularly in the West and Southwest, well, all over the 
country for that matter, ground water resources are probably 
less well understood than surface water resources. The Water 
Resources Research Institutes have played a strong role in 
developing models and developing our understanding of pollution 
of ground water supplies and understanding how to treat those 
supplies. So I would say probably our greatest successes are 
there.

                            ogalala aquifer

    Mr. Skeen. We would like to find out how to revive the 
Ogalala formation or resupply it.
    Dr. Groat. Absolutely.
    Mr. Skeen. Take all that flood water out of the Midwest and 
just drive it down those holes.
    Dr. Groat. Percolate it into the Ogalala. The High Plains 
people would appreciate that.
    Mr. Skeen. I think they probably would.
    Dr. Groat. They would. Yes, that's true.
    Mr. Skeen. They don't give up very easily.
    Dr. Groat. No, they don't.

                      water institutes evaluation

    Mr. Skeen. And I understand that the Water Resources Act 
requires an evaluation of the Institutes about every five 
years. How is the Survey proposing to meet that requirement?
    Dr. Groat. That group has met and they are finishing up a 
report right now.
    Mr. Skeen. Is this your first five-year?
    Dr. Groat. I couldn't say that for sure. I think it has 
been done in the past. This is the first one I've witnessed. 
And I did meet with the group when they were here.

                          contracting services

    Mr. Skeen. We're hearing complaints regarding the agency's 
failure to contract out services that are available in the 
private sector. What is the USGS's position on this?
    Dr. Groat. Well, we're making a very conscious effort. And 
I can't claim that we satisfy everybody in the process, but 
we're very sensitive to the ability of the private sector to 
add value to the basic products we develop and recognize that 
that's their appropriate role.
    Mr. Skeen. You're open to them?
    Dr. Groat. Oh, no question we're open to them. And, as I 
mentioned earlier, trying to bring them into the planning 
process so we know what they're interested in and capable of 
doing and can become partners early on rather than competitors 
is extremely important to us, and we're very open to that.
    Mr. Skeen. Well, you're talking about our favorite topics 
and you've done an awful lot of work, and we appreciate it very 
much. And I wanted to let you know that it has been good 
working with you.
    Dr. Groat. I've enjoyed it myself. Thank you, sir.
    Mr. Skeen. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Regula. Mr. Wamp.

                          federal coordination

    Mr. Wamp. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Dr. Groat, welcome. I 
just came from a rivers conference down in Tennessee yesterday. 
And the question I have just share with us the coordination of 
fresh water research as it goes through USGS? How do the 
agencies work together? And what role do you play versus U.S. 
Fish and Wildlife? I'm particularly interested in this non-
indigenous species issue, which in our part of the world there 
are maybe 20 non-indigenous species that are now the second 
biggest environmental problem that we have and face in the 
Southeast. Could you address those issues, please?
    Dr. Groat. I think the Southeast is a good indication of 
the problems the rest of the country faces, and it's truly a 
national issue, particularly in connection with those agencies 
within the Department of Interior that have a lot of both 
regulatory and managerial responsibilities there. You mentioned 
the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and the Bureau of 
Reclamation. They depend on us. And it is our role to 
understand those organisms and their life cycles and what it is 
that supports or discourages them so that that information can 
be used in control measures. So we don't implement or develop 
control measures, but we certainly provide the science that 
they can use to develop those control measures.
    In the Southeast, whether it's mussels or whether it's 
salamanders or whatever it happens to be, there are a number of 
species that are threatened by the environment and by 
competition with invasive species. And then there are a number 
of invasive species that once they get a toe-hold in the 
country or in an environment, are very difficult to control. 
And I think we learn, as in most things, that an ounce of 
prevention is worth many pounds of cure, and so we work very 
hard at techniques that will prevent their entry. And then once 
they're there, understanding their life-cycles and their 
environmental tendencies so we can use those to develop control 
mechanisms.

                          fresh water research

    Mr. Wamp. In the big scheme of things, is USGS the lead 
agency on fresh water research in this country or just the 
cataloging of information relative to fresh water?
    Dr. Groat. I think we could claim to be the lead agency in 
terms of information systems related to fresh water resources 
and supplies. There are a number of organizations that do fresh 
water research, including the Environmental Protection Agency, 
including universities, and State agencies. As far as those 
that understand the chemistry, the hydrology, the organisms 
that live in those or depend upon those resources in the 
Government sector, I would say that we are the lead agency.
    Mr. Wamp. Is that research headquartered where? In 
Colorado?
    Dr. Groat. Well, we have a large water quality lab, in fact 
a new one that is about to be commissioned this summer in 
Denver as part of the Federal Center. But actually in our Water 
Resources Division, we have offices in every State, and more 
than one in each State in some cases. And our Biological 
Resources Division, which does most of the threatened, 
endangered and invasive species research, we have a number of 
centers around the country and we have field offices in most 
States. So it is truly spread geographically across the whole 
country.

                            invasive species

    Mr. Wamp. Would you say that while academia and many 
universities, as you say, are now taking the lead on this 
invasive species, non-indigenous species issue, that the 
general public at large is not even plugged in yet, and that we 
need to do a better job of explaining to the country why this 
is such a problem?
    Dr. Groat. It's interesting the ones that the public does 
become aware of, such as fire ants, for example. Fire ants or 
killer bees strike the imaginations of people and show up in 
the newspaper, but there are hundreds of species, maybe even 
thousands of species that may pose a much more direct threat to 
agriculture, to forestry, to water and our farm crops than 
anything else, that the public isn't really aware of. And the 
war on those species is much more serious and should be much 
more intense.
    And, clearly, at the universities, there are a number of 
biologists and ecologists who are working very hard to 
understand what it is that controls the habitats that those 
organisms and plants can live in and how we deal with them once 
they get there and how we prevent them from coming in. So I 
think all across the sector, whether it's public or even the 
research community, the understanding of the importance of this 
issue is not as broad as it should be.

                         climate change effects

    Mr. Wamp. Is there any science that ties climate change or 
global warming to any of these issues with invasive species?
    Dr. Groat. There is. That's a real interest of research. If 
climate, temperature, precipitation, that sort of thing, does 
indeed affect the environment, which we know it does, and the 
environment obviously controls the organisms. So as those 
patterns shift, then the organisms will migrate with them. And 
these vector borne diseases, such as malaria and diseases like 
that that are borne by mosquitoes, for example, that shift with 
climate patterns, are going to move as climate changes. So the 
appreciation that the climate change will bring with it changes 
in species and more problems with invasive species is very 
strong. The understanding of it is in its infancy right now.
    Mr. Wamp. Thank you, Dr. Groat. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Regula. Mr. Dicks.

                      national earthquake network

    Mr. Dicks. I want to welcome you and have a couple of 
questions. In a recent meeting with the Seismological Society 
of America, the committee was advised that one of the highest 
priority hazards research needs is to immediately begin an 
upgrade of the National Earthquake Network. It is also our 
understanding that such a proposal was likely to be included in 
the reauthorization of the National Earthquake Hazards 
Reduction Program at a cost of $35 million per year for five 
years. Further, it was pointed out that the current Network 
does not provide the data necessary to do the research that is 
demanded by the user community. How can the Survey make a 
recommendation to fund a DIN initiative when it does not have 
the resources to address its basic hazards research mission?
    Dr. Groat. Well, let me start where you started and end up 
answering your question. I think the fact that our seismic 
network in particular is aging and the fact that it has only 
seen new birth and new additions when we have a disaster and 
then there's a little surge of money to instrument the area 
that was affected is a limitation. Overall we have no general 
program adequately funded to make sure that that network is 
either as extensive as it needs to be or as modern as it needs 
to be. And it's a clear statement, and I support the 
Seismological Society of America's understanding that we need a 
major infusion of dollars to do that.
    I think getting to your specific question----
    Mr. Dicks. What would it do? I mean what is it that you 
would like to see done?
    Dr. Groat. We would like to see some of our older 
instruments replaced by those that give us real time 
transmission of information. We would like to be able to 
measure ground motion, which we can now do because the 
technology is there and transmit it in real time to response 
agencies within minutes instead of within days or weeks. We 
would like to see that capability extended to all areas that 
have earthquake sensitivities and it's not there now. We would 
like to see our older instruments across the country upgraded 
to contain capabilities for real time transmission.
    Mr. Dicks. Well, I would think this would be one of your 
basic missions. Why is this not funded?
    Dr. Groat. Well, because, as the Seismological Society is 
pointed out, it is a $35 million or $40 million a year, 
multiyear enterprise. And we can chip away at it with $2 
million or $3 million and go at the most intense needs, but 
it's only a token. I think we're going to need an effort 
comparable and in proper proportions to what the Highway Trust 
Fund is trying to do for highways. This is a critical 
infrastructure for the country. If citizens' lives and welfare 
are important, we're going to have to make a major investment 
in it. And I would welcome an opportunity to bring those kinds 
of dollars to it. I'm not arguing that $2 million or $3 million 
doesn't make a difference. It does. But it doesn't make a real 
big dent of the kind that you indicated that the Seismological 
Society feels is important.
    Mr. Dicks. And this just doesn't make it on the priorities 
list or does OMB cut out the money or you just don't have the 
resources to do this? It seems to me that the USGS, this would 
be one of your fundamental missions would be to monitor and 
chart the possibility of earthquakes?
    Dr. Groat. It is. I wouldn't argue with you for a minute. 
In fact, we have $5.6 million in this year's budget for real 
time hazards, which will do some upgrades of part of our stream 
monitoring network although it won't add any significant number 
of new gauges, and will help us with some of our seismic 
monitoring but in very local areas. So we do ask in proportion 
to what most of our budget increase is. In our budget $5 
million or $6 million or $10 million is a big increase and that 
isn't the magnitude of numbers that we need to deal with the 
real situation with seismic hazards.
    Mr. Regula. Will the gentleman yield?
    Mr. Dicks. Yes, I yield.
    Mr. Regula. Does TEA21 have any money in it, since 
earthquakes would be very damaging to highways? Is there money 
that flows to you from the transportation budget to help with 
this research?
    Dr. Groat. That's an excellent comment and observation and 
the answer to that is no. We and our State partners in the 
State Geological Surveys are looking very hard at the TEA21 
funds to see if there is an opportunity for that because 
there's certainly lots of money there.

                    puget sound earthquake research

    Mr. Dicks. Under the geologic landscape and coastal 
assessments activity, the USGS has conducted geologic 
investigations in the Puget Sound area. The data generated 
provided new and dramatic information to FEMA and State 
agencies on the magnitude potential and reoccurrence of 
earthquakes and tsunamis and the impact of these events on 
man's activities in the Seattle-Tacoma urban corridor. Please 
elaborate on the new and dramatic information? Has your 
assessment of the risks changed as a result of the 
investigations?
    Dr. Groat. Well, I think our assessment of the risks in 
terms of its intensity or likelihood hasn't necessarily 
changed. Our ability to understand the mechanisms that cause 
the risk has increased because we've continued to do research 
into the structural elements and the dynamic elements there. 
Our ability to measure and to get that information in the hands 
of people like FEMA and State response organizations has 
increased. So I think in terms of does that understanding serve 
the population better? The Seattle-Tacoma area is one area 
where we've made some dramatic increases in capabilities and 
can be in part a model for how we would like to behave in other 
areas.
    Mr. Dicks. It is my understanding that in the work that 
you've done is that we have a potential for a very significant 
earthquake in the Puget Sound area?
    Dr. Groat. I think the awareness has increased because of 
this work.
    Mr. Dicks. What should we be doing about that?

                      disaster information network

    Dr. Groat. Well, I think this is a case where something 
like our Disaster Information Network proposal comes into play 
because that's the mechanism by which we get our information, 
our understandings, and our pieces of information that are 
useful in assessing the risks and responding to them in the 
hands of those that have to cope with them. And that's where we 
need to become more effective. We need to make sure that FEMA, 
that your State response people, that the urban response people 
are quickly informed and have plans developed around an 
understanding of the risk. And so that's where Disaster 
Information Network, for example, can make some big steps in 
improving that response capability.

                     earthquake response capability

    Mr. Dicks. Well, a few years ago, we had the big earthquake 
in California and how would you rate your capability to do what 
you just suggested between then and now? Has it deteriorated or 
is it about the same? Inadequate? How would you characterize 
it?
    Dr. Groat. I think our ability to respond quicker--let me 
put it another way. The capability to respond quicker is better 
than it was in the past. Our ability to gather the information 
and transmit it in a more timely manner has increased but not 
as dramatically as it could if we were able to increase the 
instrumentation and increase the information system that gets 
the information in their hands. For example, in ground motion, 
which to people who are worried about responding, is the most 
critical piece of information. Where is the ground motion going 
to take place? Where and when is it going to take place? We now 
have the ability with the right instruments to transmit that 
information in real time so it's there in a minute or two. 
That's something we didn't have a few years ago. And we have 
that capability in limited areas, but we don't have it in our 
most earthquake-prone areas, including the Seattle-Tacoma area.

                       long-term data collection

    Mr. Dicks. How do you intend to deal with the declining 
level of effort in long-term data collection?
    Dr. Groat. Well, that's a major concern, Mr. Dicks, because 
the mood of people today is for information and almost instant 
gratification and there's not a lot of recognition that good 
information depends on good science and good monitoring. And to 
try to get significant investments in our ability to collect 
information is much more difficult than it is to get 
investments in putting things on the Internet or making 
information available. That's extremely important. But I'm 
really concerned in the long-term that if we lose our appetite 
for good quality data and the ability to gather that data, the 
information we put forward isn't going to be as useful as it 
can be. And I think that's a major, legitimate long-term 
concern for us and for other agencies of our type.

               investment in future information delivery

    Mr. Dicks. How does the Survey and the Water Resources 
Division intend to deal with the need to invest for the future 
in technology, databases, instruments, methods, and information 
delivery?
    Dr. Groat. Well, part of it goes back to what we were just 
talking about. In our water resources program, our nationwide 
network of stream gauges, water quality gauges, ground water 
monitoring stations needs not only to be maintained but 
expanded so we have the information necessary to deal with 
long-term water resource and quality issues. Our ability to 
analyze and interpret that information depends on a steady flow 
of talented capable people and, frankly, as limited as we are 
in our personnel, our ability to add those people is not as 
great as it needs to be. And, third, in terms of making that 
information available, that's where the technology, the 
information technology is likewise--the capability is there. 
Our need is to invest in enough of it to make the USGS truly 
effective in communicating that information.
    So I guess I'm in a long way saying the science is there, 
the capability is there, the investment isn't there.
    Mr. Dicks. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

                           program priorities

    Mr. Regula. Thank you. Your budget request proposes 
increases of $40 million over Fiscal Year 1999, but at the 
expense of $31 million in program decreases, which seem to be 
congressional priorities. Why have you increased new programs 
at the expense of eliminating the high-priority of old 
programs?
    Dr. Groat. Well, I guess that's part of the process of 
putting a budget together that I came into the middle of. 
Recognizing that we have our recommendations and our requests, 
and the Department has theirs, and the Office of Management of 
Budget has theirs, it becomes a real interesting game, as I've 
learned in my first few months here of determining whose 
priorities fly where. Some of the program decreases that we 
experienced were the results of negotiations and other people's 
will. Some of them were our own. Each year we go through 
shufflings of what we need to continue on and what we need to 
add to, and I think the emphasis you see this year is where 
there are significant increases in our ability to partner with 
the communities and with our customers out there in getting 
information in their hands is an indication that the 
administration and we feel this is extremely important. And so 
I would argue in that case that this is where we are all of the 
same mind. In the case of where we've had to cut some programs 
because dollars that were there in previous years, such as 
Clean Water Action Plan, are no longer there, we don't feel too 
good about that. But it's something we had to live with and had 
to adjust to.
    Mr. Regula. You're saying your budget reflects not only 
your priorities, but OMB and administration priorities?
    Dr. Groat. I think as in every agency's case, yes, sir.
    Mr. Regula. Last year, the administration proposed a major 
new Government-wide clean water initiative, and this year we 
see no mention of that initiative. You're reducing your clean 
water funding request. What happened?

                    clean water action plan funding

    Dr. Groat. Well, in Fiscal Year 1999, we had $12.75 million 
in Clean Water Action Plan funds. In Fiscal Year 2000, we were 
not granted any money in that area at all in passback.
    Mr. Regula. ``We were not granted'' by whom?
    Dr. Groat. By the administration.
    Mr. Regula. OMB?
    Dr. Groat. Yes. Now we appealed that and did get some funds 
back. So I would have to say that they did understand, but in 
fact it is down.
    Mr. Regula. I thought clean water was a big administration 
priority?
    Dr. Groat. Well, I think it is. Our problem is it wasn't 
made a big enough priority with us to get the funding that 
other agencies did.
    Mr. Regula. There's inconsistency between the rhetoric and 
the money.
    Dr. Groat. In our case, our interest isn't met with the 
dollars that we need to do it. I think that's correct.
    Mr. Skeen. The check is in the mail.
    Dr. Groat. We wish it was.
    Mr. Regula. It's not even in the mail?
    Dr. Groat. No, we haven't checked the mail.
    Mr. Regula. Mr. Skeen, do you have additional questions?
    Mr. Skeen. No, sir, not at this time.
    Mr. Dicks. I have a few more, Mr. Chairman?
    Mr. Regula. Mr. Wamp? Mr. Dicks?

                       biological science funding

    Mr. Dicks. After experiencing severe cuts in the last four 
years, in 1999, the biological science activities of the 
Interior Department reached the level provided for before the 
transfer to the Geological Survey. This year's budget for the 
biological research totals $125 million compared with $162 
million in 1999, $37 million the difference is accounted for by 
the program re-directions, mainly for the new Integrated 
Science activity. Integration of the former National Biological 
Service into the Geological Survey has not been accomplished 
without some ups and downs. Can you assure the committee that 
the move to create the Integrated Science activity is not 
intended to diminish the role of biological research in any 
way?
    Dr. Groat. No, I could certainly assure the committee of 
that. I came into this job saying perhaps the greatest thing 
that has happened to the USGS in recent history is the addition 
of the Biological Resources Division, and I firmly believe that 
and think that their leadership in a lot of these Integrated 
Science programs is essential. The fact that their money shows 
up so prominently in that integrated program is an indication 
of that. And their prominence and their involvement will 
certainly not diminish it one bit.
    Mr. Dicks. This year it is still possible to compare the 
total for biological science, including Integrated Science and 
other program re-directions with the last appropriation for the 
Biological Resource Division. Will this visibility be lost in 
future years? Can the Survey prepare a separate exhibit in 
future years that would reflect the amount in Integrated 
Science related to biological research?
    Dr. Groat. Certainly, we could. That's an interesting 
suggestion. We certainly don't want to give the impression that 
our program areas are suffering from being involved in 
Integrated Science, quite the contrary. We want to show that 
all the program areas are involved and any way we can 
demonstrate that would be I think to our advantage as well as 
our customer's advantage.

                        science centers funding

    Mr. Dicks. Many of the USGS Research Centers reflect 
resource reductions in the 2000 budget. Has the level of 
funding proposed for any of the Centers been reduced to such a 
level that the ability of a Center to perform first-rate 
science is called into question?
    Dr. Groat. I don't believe so, Mr. Dicks. I think a lot of 
what appear to be reductions are simply the pulling of 
administrative and facility costs out. It makes it look as if 
their budgets are decreasing when, in fact, they will still 
have control over those dollars, they will still go to support 
their administration and their facilities. It is just that it 
doesn't show up in their budget. So in that sense, our 
restructuring of our budget cuts haven't curtailed their 
ability to do the good science. Now to the extent that program 
cuts have affected them above and beyond that, there are ups 
and there are downs. But I don't think there are any major 
decreases that would hinder their ability to do good work.
    Mr. Dicks. How many Centers does the USGS currently have?
    Dr. Groat. Oh, I would have to ask for some assistance for 
that. Centers of all kinds or within the Biological Resources 
Division?
    Mr. Dicks. Biological.
    Dr. Groat. I'll ask Denny Fenn.
    Mr. Dicks. Sixteen?
    Dr. Groat. Sixteen? Yes.

                      consolidation of facilities

    Mr. Dicks. Has the Survey given serious thought to 
consolidating some of the Centers to stretch budget resources?
    Dr. Groat. Well, one of our primary goals is consolidation 
of facilities where we can bring people from our various 
divisions together under one roof for collegiality and ability 
to work together more effectively. And then, secondly, from a 
cost effectiveness point of view. So the answer to the question 
is yes.

                   western fisheries research center

    Mr. Dicks. According to budget documents, the funding level 
for the Western Fisheries Research Center in Seattle declines 
from $1.7 million in 1999 to $913,000 in 2000. What do you see 
as the impact of this reduction on the Center's ability to 
perform its mission? And tell us what that mission is?
    Dr. Groat. Well, the Fisheries Center, is not the only, but 
a preeminent organization dealing with fisheries habitats, with 
the fisheries health, and understanding their life-cycles and 
their involvement and interaction with the environment. Their 
role will certainly not diminish with all of the interest in 
the fisheries----
    Mr. Dicks. And we're going to have listings out there as 
you know.
    Dr. Groat. I had heard recently that there are several 
species that are going to be considered threatened. Today?
    Mr. Dicks. Today.
    Dr. Groat. So, no, sir, their role is not going to diminish 
one bit.
    Mr. Dicks. Does the Center receive funding from other 
Governmental and/or non-Governmental sources?
    Dr. Groat. Practically all of our programs are supplemented 
by work we do for other agencies through our reimbursable 
program and they're no exception.

               community federal information partnership

    Mr. Dicks. One of the major new initiatives of the Survey's 
2000 budget is $10 million for the Community Federal 
Information Partnership. First of all, did USGS request any of 
this funding or was it added at the Department level or by the 
Office of Management and Budget?
    Dr. Groat. No, sir, we did request that money.
    Mr. Dicks. What are you going to do with that? What's this 
program all about?
    Dr. Groat. That's a means of implementing the National 
Spatial Data Infrastructure, which is a fancy way of saying 
that the Federal Government, and particularly the Department of 
Interior, have been committed to turning the information that 
is related to the land, that's related to the water, that's 
spatially based into the hands of the communities that use it, 
whether it's other agencies, Federal and State, or whether it's 
communities or the public at large. And so how you get that 
information into their hands has been a real challenge. They 
need to build capacity and they need to understand how to do 
it.
    The Community Federal Information Partnership is a program 
that two-thirds of the money goes out the door. It's given as 
grants and contracts to communities and to organizations that 
will actually use that data. And a third of it is used on our 
behalf to be able to give that information to them. A million 
and a half of that, for example, is going to into a geologic 
mapping program. Other parts are spread among the other 
divisions--four divisions to extract and develop those kind of 
partnerships.
    Mr. Dicks. Well, what bothers us is that this may be a good 
idea, but when you're not getting the basic job done on the 
Network or on data, how can we do something like this that 
looks like we're trying to convince the local governments of 
the States that your products are good? This looks like a 
priorities question to me, whether when you're short of money 
in these other areas, whether we should start something new at 
this juncture and not take this money and plow it back into 
earthquake work or data production?
    Dr. Groat. There's no question that this particular 
program, as well as some others, are key elements in the 
administration's program. However, and particularly in this 
case, we feel that getting our information out is important and 
doing it effectively is important. So I don't think this is a 
trade-off in priorities. It's taking advantage of someone who 
has the same interests we do and putting some money into that 
effort. So we see it as an opportunity.

              national spatial data infrastructure funding

    Mr. Dicks. What total resources does the Geological Survey 
devote to the National Spatial Data Infrastructure?
    Dr. Groat. Total resources in terms of dollars? I would 
have to give you some detailed information of that for the 
record. I don't have that on the tip of my tongue. But let me 
say that in our National Mapping Division, a large number of 
its programs contribute to that effort. We support the 
Department of Interior's lead role in that with both people and 
dollars. If you're interested in particular dollars, I can get 
that for you.
    Mr. Dicks. Yes, put it in the record.
    Dr. Groat. I will.
    [The information follows:]

[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]


                    hammer award for national atlas

    Mr. Dicks. USGS received a Hammer Award for its work on the 
National Atlas. Bring us up-to-date on the status of the Atlas, 
including the activities of your partners on the project and 
what the public's response has been to date?
    Dr. Groat. The Atlas, as you know, is our effort literally 
on a national scale to bring databases together, many different 
kinds of databases. And because it is many different kinds, it 
involves many different partners. The information that is in 
that Atlas comes from many agencies, both Federal, State, and 
local. And our role has been to combine that information, to 
use modern tools to integrate it, and then to provide the 
product. There's an exhibit in your book, if you're interested, 
number 32, that gives you a picture of the agencies that are 
cooperating, ranging from Forest Service, NOAA, U.S. Fish and 
Wildlife Service, Corps of Engineers, MMS, any number.
    [The information follows:]

[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

    And the Atlas, while not complete, is very far along. And 
we feel it is a good indication of how data can be synthesized 
and how we can truly get a national scope to the information 
base that we have developed.

                              GAP Analysis

    Mr. Dicks. What happened to GAP analysis?
    Dr. Groat. Gap analysis lives, sir. It still goes on. It's 
an extremely important tool that has a lot of support from 
local and State agencies who need that information. So it's an 
integral part of our program. It's part of many things we do.

                    Initiatives with limited funding

    Mr. Dicks. The 2000 budget contains several small 
initiatives, such as hypoxia in the Gulf of Mexico, $400,000; 
the Hawaii Archipelago, $700,000; and coral reefs, $1 million. 
In each instance, the limited funding appears designed more to 
let the USGS say it's addressing these issues than to 
accomplish something substantial. Are the amounts requested 
sufficient to provide measurable results?
    Dr. Groat. Well, I think by themselves, no. But I think in 
all of those cases, we're only one of the players. And so our 
role in each of those programs is not as the lead agency, it's 
as one of several agencies. So I think it does allow us to 
bring what we have to offer to the table in an effective way, 
but certainly if the whole program was based on what we were 
doing, the answer would have to be no.

                   Amphibian Monitoring and Research

    Mr. Dicks. Another initiative in this year's budget is 
amphibian monitoring and research. The Department of Interior 
in total is asking for $8.1 million, including $5.6 million for 
the USGS. This compares with $1 million devoted to this effort 
by the Survey in 1999. Please explain exactly how the GS would 
use the increased funding? What are the future year 
requirements for this initiative?
    Dr. Groat. Our primary role now, and in the past, but 
expanded under this increased funding, is to survey and 
understand the extent of the problem, geographically and 
environmentally; in what habitats, in what geographic areas is 
this a problem, both a decline in the number of amphibians and 
species of amphibians and also the problem with the deformities 
that have been found in various populations. So our role is to 
gather a broad base of information that lets us know the extent 
of the problem, and then to do some very specific research into 
specific environments and specific types of deformities to 
understand their causes.
    So of that money, the bulk of it, I think $4 million, will 
go to our Biological Resources Division and $1 million will go 
to our Water Resources Division to do that kind of work and a 
smaller part will go to our National Mapping Division. We'll 
use many cooperators in the process to gather information: 
universities, agencies, and so forth.

                    Mapping Cooperation with Defense

    Mr. Dicks. Do you have any cooperation with NIMA, the 
National Imagery and Mapping Agency?
    Dr. Groat. Yes, we do. We have a classified facility that 
works very closely with them on using the military and the 
intelligence community's information gathering techniques, and 
then, as far as defense mapping in general, we work very 
closely with them. They're a strong partner.

                         Washington Coast Study

    Mr. Dicks. Good. One final thing. We have a study, the USGS 
is doing a study on the coast of Washington on I think the 
effects storms and projects, Corps of Engineer projects, can 
you tell me the status of that report?
    Dr. Groat. That program has probably produced some of the 
most dramatic results in terms of coastal erosion and coastal 
change of any of the work we've done. We have produced some 
maps. We've produced a flyer on that. We've communicated the 
information. So while the work--the monitoring process--never 
ends, our basic understanding of the changes that have taken 
place over the last few decades is in place and has been 
documented. So I think we're, while we're not finished----
    Mr. Dicks. If I wanted to receive a briefing on that, who 
would I talk to?
    Dr. Groat. We could arrange that through our Coastal and 
Marine Geology program at your desire.
    Mr. Dicks. Thank you very much.

                  Funding Biological Information Needs

    Mr. Regula. A couple of other questions. As you know, 
originally they wanted to put the Biological Resources as a 
separate agency. We put it in USGS. Now there's always an 
undercurrent of well each agency still wanting to do their own 
thing. Do you feel that your resources are adequate to take 
care of any of the needs that come from the agencies and have 
they historically used the resources you have on a day-to-day 
basis?
    Dr. Groat. The answer to your last question is yes. And 
their ability to use those resources on a day-to-day basis is 
something we want to maintain because that's how we can be 
effective in serving their needs. Are the resources adequate? I 
think I honestly would have to say no. If you look at the 
Biological Resources Division budget now compared to what it 
was when they were set up, they're still down a significant 
amount of money. So our ability, whether the Biological 
Resources Division was somewhere else or with us, to respond to 
those needs, should be increased by additional funding. Their 
will and their desire and our commitment to making them serve 
those needs with the resources we have is not diminished at 
all. In fact, we're working very hard to make sure it's more 
effective.

                          Funding for Science

    Mr. Regula. So we would be better off to increase your 
budget than to proliferate these duplicative services in other 
agencies, is that a fair statement?
    Dr. Groat. I would argue strongly in that regard. I think 
the Biological Resources Division was put here because we 
provide a science-friendly environment which they can serve 
best from. I think we're proving that and we would like to see 
the opportunity to expand that from our base rather than the 
proliferation, yes.
    Mr. Regula. Are you using more botanists? I know I've heard 
from the garden clubs. They think that you need more botany and 
maybe a little less biology. [Laughter.]
    Dr. Groat. Well, I guess every advocate group has their 
favorite type of science.
    Mr. Regula. Tell us about it. [Laughter.]
    Dr. Groat. Mr. Wamp mentioned invasive species. And some of 
the most significant problems are with plants in the West and 
other places. So our botany corps will certainly not shrink and 
probably will increase.

                     Science Outreach to Education

    Mr. Regula. I'm curious about education. We're getting more 
and more of a stress on educational values. The Internet, of 
course, is a very effective tool. Are schools using your 
services? Could they use more? Because you have a wealth of 
information. You mentioned the Atlas. I wonder if the educators 
realize how valuable you could be in their science programs.
    Dr. Groat. My observation is that the ones that do are just 
really excited by what they can find at our website. And we've 
made some very special programs specifically aimed at different 
levels in the schools. One problem scientists have sometimes, 
in that we throw a bunch of science out there and we assume the 
educators will just love this stuff and use it, only to find 
out that it either goes over their heads or misses the target 
or isn't in their curriculums. So we're trying to tailor 
material with educators involved so we understand the education 
level our information should fit.
    Mr. Regula. That's my question, are you orienting some of 
your programs to the educators? Do you have communication with 
educators, to say, ``How can we be more effective?'' Because 
you're right, you could easily get over the student's head, 
particularly at the high school level. But you would be a 
terrific resource to the whole spectrum of education.
    Dr. Groat. Yes, in fact, I wouldn't even say over their 
heads. It's amazing what kids can handle.
    Mr. Regula. That's true.
    Dr. Groat. What we tend to do sometimes as scientists, and 
I don't mean us as a bureau, is we get so excited about 
something, we say, ``Boy, the teachers would love this.'' And, 
yes, they probably would, but the fact is it doesn't fit their 
curriculum anywhere. So the real test is to make sure what you 
put out there is stuff they need and can use.
    Mr. Regula. That's my question.
    Dr. Groat. And we're trying very hard to do that.
    Mr. Regula. Are you thinking in those terms?
    Dr. Groat. Yes, we are.
    Mr. Regula. In this day and age of education, you really do 
have a terrific resource if it's utilized properly.
    Dr. Groat. We do. Before I came to the USGS, I spent a lot 
of years involved in K through 12 science education reform and 
recognize exactly what you said. The resources are there. We've 
just got to get them appropriately aimed. We're trying very 
hard to do that.

                         Gateway to the Future

    Mr. Regula. Last question. Gateway to the Future, is it 
working? And do you propose to expand it to other States?
    Dr. Groat. Yes, we do. The whole issue that we've alluded 
to a couple of times before of rapidly transmitting information 
in big bunches very quickly is a technological challenge and 
it's also a challenge for the user community to meet with. 
We've had some very significant experiences with that in your 
State, in Ohio.
    Mr. Regula. I know.
    Dr. Groat. Which have been very successful. And we, 
therefore, are getting interest from other groups in 
perpetuating that. And I think, again, if we're going to be 
effective in using the information, transmitting it, we're 
going to have to do more of that.
    Mr. Regula. Mr. Skeen, any further?

                     Cooperation With Universities

    Mr. Skeen. I don't have anything further. I would just like 
to comment on the background with the universities, the ones 
that you worked with in our area. Excellent, excellent program. 
Done very well. The information that you have accumulated and 
distributed amongst us, that was one of the finest 
documentaries I've ever looked at.
    Dr. Groat. I appreciate that. We have a good working 
relationship with New Mexico State and others in the State.
    Mr. Skeen. We appreciate that. We've got a dry lander right 
here.
    Dr. Groat. Who appreciates the value of a drink of water, I 
guess, yes, sir.
    Mr. Skeen. Appreciates the fact that we are one of the 
driest parts of the whole country.
    Dr. Groat. Particularly this year, as I understand.
    Mr. Skeen. I don't know who, El Nino or La Nina, to blame, 
but----

                         Forest Fire Detection

    Dr. Groat. Whoever it is, it's not doing the forests any 
favors.
    Mr. Skeen. Whoever it is, they're sure keeping us dry.
    Dr. Groat. I understand we may have the worst fire season 
ever in the Southwest this year.
    Mr. Skeen. Yes, sir, and that poses another problem.
    Dr. Groat. It sure does, yes.
    Mr. Skeen. Because we're getting a lot of wind with it.
    Dr. Groat. And that's another area that we're working with 
through our classified facility, the ability to detect fires 
when they're still small so we can do something about them very 
quickly.
    Mr. Skeen. Well, you provided us with a lot of technology 
that otherwise would never have existed. Your department has 
done an excellent job and the kind of people that you have with 
you too. They're all nodding back there. [Laughter.]
    Dr. Groat. Did they? Well, I said that coming in.
    Mr. Skeen. It wasn't from sleep? [Laughter.]
    Dr. Groat. No, no. You said something they can relate to I 
think. I agree with you. It's an extremely talented outfit.
    Mr. Skeen. It really is.
    Dr. Groat. And a great will to do good things.
    Mr. Skeen. Of course, my field is engineering and so I 
enjoy to see that kind of thing. I don't know how I got into 
ranching. [Laughter.]
    Dr. Groat. It probably was not to get rich.
    Mr. Skeen. No, we're finding that out.
    Dr. Groat. That's what I understand.
    Mr. Skeen. Thank you, sir. Good to see you and to have you 
here.
    Dr. Groat. Thank you. I appreciate it.
    Mr. Regula. Mr. Dicks, any questions?
    Mr. Dicks. No, no further questions.
    Mr. Regula. Well, we want to thank you for coming. I know 
that I will have a number of questions for the record and will 
appreciate a prompt response. We're trying to move our programs 
as quickly as possible. I'm speaking, of course, of the bill, 
the budget----
    Dr. Groat. Yes.

                          support for science

    Mr. Regula [continuing]. For Fiscal Year 2000. And along 
the line of what Mr. Skeen said, I note that many of you are 
wearing the USGS lapel pins, and I think you can wear these 
with pride. I have to say in my many years on this committee, I 
think USGS has been one of the bright spots, and you have a 
good agency. Many of your employees are here, and I certainly 
salute you for doing good work. And I think generally the 
public has a good impression of your work. They are never sure 
their Government is doing for them what they would like, but I 
believe your agency has been one that has enjoyed an excellent 
reputation in the public in the way you provide service to 
them.
    There are a lot of challenges out there. The invasive 
species is one that is tough because the shrinking world has 
resulted in things coming into our country that are very 
undesirable through all kinds of transportation. And I'm sure 
in agriculture, you have that problem of trying to stop it at 
the border, but it's tough, it's very tough. So we are very 
pleased with what you've been able to do, and your stewardship 
as director to this point has been quite good. So thank you all 
for coming.
    Dr. Groat. Thank you for your support, Mr. Chairman. I 
understood coming in that this committee really cared about 
this organization and what we did, and has been a very 
supportive, critical at times, but supportive. And we really 
appreciate that.
    Mr. Regula. Well, we're just trying to work with you to 
give the best possible service to the public with the dollars 
we have. And I think that reflects pretty much the prevailing 
attitude in your organization. So we hope to further support 
the good relationship.
    Dr. Groat. Thank you very much.
    Mr. Regula. Thank you. The hearing is adjourned.
    [Additional committee questions follow:]

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                                            Friday, March 26, 1999.

  BUREAU OF INDIAN AFFAIRS AND OFFICE OF SPECIAL TRUSTEE FOR AMERICAN 
                                INDIANS

                               WITNESSES

THOMAS M. THOMPSON, ACTING SPECIAL TRUSTEE FOR AMERICAN INDIANS, OFFICE 
    OF THE SPECIAL TRUSTEE
KEVIN GOVER, ASSISTANT SECRETARY, INDIAN AFFAIRS
HILDA A. MANUEL, DEPUTY COMMISSIONER OF INDIAN AFFAIRS
JOANN SEBASTIAN MORRIS, DIRECTOR, OFFICE OF INDIAN EDUCATION PROGRAMS
JAMES H. McDIVITT, CHIEF OF STAFF, BUREAU OF INDIAN AFFAIRS
DAVID A. GILBERT, BUDGET OFFICER, OFFICE OF THE SPECIAL TRUSTEE
JOHN D. TREZISE, DIRECTOR OFFICE OF BUDGET, OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY

                       office of special trustee

    Mr. Regula. Good morning. We will get the hearing started. 
We probably won't have a lot of Members since we are not in 
session today, but we are happy to welcome you, and all of your 
statements will be made a part of the record. You may summarize 
for the committee.
    Mr. Thompson. Good morning, Mr. Chairman. Thanks for 
inviting us up to talk about the budget request for the Office 
of Special Trustee and for improvement of the Indian Trust Fund 
and trust management business. Secretary Babbitt has talked of 
his support for this initiative and how he wants to get this 
done on his watch. He recently testified in that fashion to 
you.
    With the help of the committee in the last couple of years, 
we have made progress towards resolving this issue. The plan 
basically called for fixing some of the supporting systems, the 
automated systems, cleaning up the data, and also working on 
some of the support activities.
    I guess the key thing on this is in July of last year, we 
published what is called the High Level Implementation Plan, 
and that is the basic road map for the things that need to be 
fixed with Indian trust management business. It covers five 
bureaus and offices. It covered all of the problems and 
citations of problems that we could discover for the last 20 
years. It is a high level plan, so it lacks some details at 
this point, but we are filling in those details as we go along.
    In the meantime, the Special Trustee's Office moved forward 
with cleanup of data preparatory to bringing on board the 
commercial off-the-shelf trust accounting system which we are 
now rolling out to the BIA area offices. It basically brings 
modern technology to Indian trust accounting, an investment 
that was not there in the past.
    So far we have successfully piloted that system and rolled 
it out to five of the 12 BIA areas. We have also converted the 
tribal trust accounts to that system. Today we have about $2.7 
billion of the $3 billion on this new system. With daily 
reconciliations of the cash, automated reconciliations, it is a 
vast improvement over what we have been dealing with.
    On the heels of that, the BIA has set out to contract for 
and are beginning to work on a replacement for their land 
management and title functions. These are complementary 
systems. The contract was awarded to a company called Artesia 
Data Systems. They are beginning to work on the design and they 
will begin a pilot in the Billings area office of that activity 
in the June time frame.
    We have continued to work on the internal control 
procedures we started a few years ago. I mentioned daily 
reconciliation. We continue with annual audits of the accounts 
and therefore we basically are building forward on the systems. 
The Secretary said he is going to get this cleaned up on his 
watch, and we will be well out of the train station at the end 
of the year 2000.
    In the case of the trust fund accounting systems, we will 
have all of the areas on the new system by the end of this 
year. By the end of next year we will have the BIA areas on the 
new trust asset accounting system. Solid progress.
    But we come to you with a massive budget request this year 
in a tough time. We basically were asked to work in the first 
couple of years with the money we could put our hands on, and 
that has been between $12 and $17 million for the last 2 or 3 
years. We are at the crunch point now to finish this work. The 
request is in the order of an increase of $60 million, which is 
a huge amount of money. The money is required, about half of 
it, for the new systems, the ones we are operating now and the 
ones we want to bring on, and about half of it is required for 
data cleanup, and there are other pieces in there, of course, 
for records management, for internal controls, for training, 
for policy and procedures.
    You have my statement, and we will be happy to respond to 
questions.
    [The statement of Mr. Thompson follows:]

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                           budget allocation

    Mr. Regula. I have to say at the outset that we are going 
to have a budget crunch, because the way it looks now, we are 
going to have less this year than last to allocate. So I don't 
see much in the way of an ability to increase anything. Our 
biggest challenge will be just to stay at last year's levels.

                           lawsuit settlement

    But we will do the best we can with it. I understand that 
the Justice Department has expanded its trust fund litigation 
to include those specifically tasked with working on settlement 
issues. Have you worked with the Department of Justice and have 
they developed some recommendations there in cooperation with 
you to settle these cases?
    Mr. Thompson. I have to confess, I am a relatively new 
player to this business. Most of the effort at this point has 
been aimed at, from my perspective, fixing the system, the 
improvement piece, the project management there. I think on the 
Justice side, there were a lot fewer lawyers involved a couple, 
3 months ago. I am not personally aware of active settlement 
efforts at this point, but I think Mr. Gover may have something 
to add to that.
    Mr. Gover. If I might, Mr. Chairman, Justice has appointed 
a settlement team. We have met with those lawyers. There are 
some impediments to settlement, but I believe that our approach 
to it is as follows: There are two aspects of the trial. The 
first is fixing the system, what do we do prospectively. The 
second and more difficult issue is what do we do about the 
past. As for moving forward, our basic position is this, that 
all of the improvements that are cited in the High Level 
Implementation Plan clearly have to take place. I don't think 
there is any doubt even on the plaintiff's side that this data 
cleanup and the installation of the new system is critical to 
have even the basics of a trust management system. The dispute, 
to the extent there is one, is how far do we go beyond the High 
Level Implementation Plan, and there we don't know yet 
precisely what the plan is.
    Mr. Regula. Is this a class action suit?
    Mr. Gover. Yes.
    Mr. Regula. Once there would be a settlement or recovery, 
whatever is the determination, you would have to allocate the 
monies to thousands of people.
    Mr. Thompson. We have on the system now about 300,000 
accounts and account holders.
    Mr. Regula. Does that include those retroactive as well as 
prospective?
    Mr. Thompson. The plaintiffs are using a number close to 
500,000. Looking at the last 20, 25 years, they can find 
accounts that have been taken off the system because of no 
activity, or one case or another. There are significant numbers 
of people involved, and the numbers involved in this exercise 
are also large.

                            judgment process

    Mr. Regula. Well, if there were to be a judgment in the 
suit, who is going to allocate the resources, the money, back 
to the supposedly legitimate claimants?
    Mr. Thompson. I don't know that a vehicle or a proposal has 
been put on the table about how to deal with this situation at 
this point. The numbers at this point are so far apart. In one 
situation the plaintiffs are looking at something like $12 
billion that has passed through the system, and they believe a 
lot of that has been done erroneously. The government's 
position, after looking at the tribal reconciliation record, is 
that it appears the error rate was a lot lower than that. The 
starting point, as you can imagine, is $1 to $11 billion. It is 
going to take some real head knocking to get this thing started 
in terms of settlements. That will have to happen.
    Mr. Regula. Will that close it out, once a judgment has 
been achieved? Then, of course, the distribution will be 
another matter. Will that at least close out your efforts, 
because you are working retroactive and prospective?
    Mr. Thompson. It is one piece of the things we are to do. 
We have a couple of the other issues that have been put forth, 
one dealing with the fractionate interest problem. We had some 
legislation up here last year. That is a key piece of this 
effort. We also have the matter of the tribal settlement. We 
have some 1,600 tribal accounts, and after the reconciliation 
in the period 1991 to 1995, there are issues yet out there. So 
we need a beginning balance or a confirmed balance to go 
forward to say that----
    Mr. Regula. From here on out, this is it.
    Mr. Thompson. That is right.
    Mr. Regula. Do you feel pretty confident that for the 
future, you have got it under control?
    Mr. Thompson. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Regula. You will have all of this computerized and be 
able to distribute the funds on an equitable basis.
    Mr. Thompson. That is right. Working them together with 
BIA, the Minerals Management Service----

                         fractionated ownership

    Mr. Regula. Don't you have a problem in ownership on some 
of these lands where there is, as you mentioned the 
fractionated interest. Probably there hasn't been a very 
precise probating of ownership, so you can have a whole list of 
heirs having a very minute part of a possible claim.
    Mr. Thompson. Absolutely. It looks something like this. 
Four or five generations, you can go from a couple----
    Mr. Regula. How can you track that all down?
    Mr. Thompson. Parts of this will be resolved, we believe, 
with an effort being piloted by BIA now. There is a pilot to 
deal with fractionated interest. The idea is we will simply 
purchase the interests of these minority owners and basically 
start to combine them. The pilot has begun in the Minneapolis 
area office. They look in terms of collecting and buying 20,000 
to 30,000 of these small interests in this year. We have asked 
for more money to do this job.
    Mr. Regula. Once you buy them, who will have the right to 
royalties? Will the government?
    Mr. Thompson. We will pass them along to the tribe after we 
have recovered the money spent to buy the purchases.
    Mr. Regula. They would be owned by a tribe, so you wouldn't 
have the problem of fractionations in the future. You mentioned 
tribal interests, so I assume there are already some instances 
where tribes own the royalty interest.
    Mr. Thompson. Of course. In the lands that we are dealing 
with, there is about 56 million acres under trust. The tribes 
own about 46 million acres. The individual Indian owners own 
about 10 million acres. Of course, the fractionation in some 
cases for the individual Indians, we have some 1,100-1,200 
owners----
    Mr. Regula. I can understand that. I used to do some title 
work, and I know how that is. So the tribal interests probably 
are not so difficult to deal with because you only have one 
entity.
    Mr. Thompson. It makes it a lot easier, but we have pretty 
small tribal interests in some cases too. Tribes have also 
tried to remedy the situation. An area that comes to mind is 
the Rosebud Tribe in South Dakota. They have been purchasing 
interests across the reservation from other owners. It is an 
interesting pilot they have been running up there too. They 
have been trying to consolidate the lands so they can lease it.
    Mr. Regula. So they hold title in the name of the tribe.
    Mr. Thompson. Sure.
    Mr. Regula. When do you think this will all get resolved? 
Not on the prospective, I think you have that, and it will be 
an ongoing responsibility, but for what is on the back end?
    Mr. Thompson. There are so many things that are unknown at 
this point, I would be doing you a disservice to try to make an 
estimate.
    Mr. Regula. You anticipate you will be here next year?
    Mr. Thompson. Sure hope so.
    Mr. Regula. I would imagine so.

                             special master

    Now, the court has appointed a special master. What impact 
will that have?
    Mr. Thompson. The special master at this point is working 
with the Justice Department and with the Interior solicitor's 
office. We are beginning to get tasked from the special master 
dealing with document production. The impact you will see right 
away is that we have people engaged in trying to fix the 
system, and often they are pulled off to work on finding 
documents to deal with issues in the past.

                           records production

    Mr. Regula. I suppose the records are a little bit skimpy 
in some instances.
    Mr. Thompson. Right now the effort is to try and find 
records for the five named plaintiffs in the Cobell litigation, 
and we have learned through the offices of the judge that we 
also need to find the predecessors in interest to those five. 
We think that will engage another 100 or so people, and we are 
now doing the planning and organizing work to get on with that 
job.

                             indian probate

    Mr. Regula. I used to do probate work. Out of curiosity, 
how is an estate probated in an Indian Tribe? Is that through 
the county courts, or is there a separate system responsible?
    Mr. Thompson. I will let Mr. Gover jump in here.
    Mr. Gover. It actually depends on the tribe. In eastern 
Oklahoma, for example, they are probated through the county 
courts. For most of Indian Country, it is probated by the 
Interior Department, and a BIA person will take the information 
on the deceased, identify the heirs, prepare their record, and 
then give it to an administrative law judge. Then the ALJ, of 
course, has to have a hearing and finally enter judgment.
    Mr. Regula. An ALJ will enter judgment as to the ownership, 
which may be a pyramid eventually.
    Mr. Gover. It almost always is a pyramid.
    [The information follows:]

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                         training of personnel

    Mr. Regula. I have a question here that staff prepared. The 
committee understands that it takes about 1 year to train an 
individual in the intricacies of working in the probate area. 
Do you have a long term plan for maintaining trained personnel 
in the land offices? It seems to me that has to be a tough 
problem.
    Mr. Gover. I think it is fair to say we don't have a plan 
yet. However, we have established a committee, a reinvention 
lab, we call it, to sit and work from the beginning of the 
probate process to the end, and to even identify a completely 
new system, if that is what makes sense. Right now we are 
engaging a phenomenal amount of resources on probates that tend 
to have not a lot of value. So we are trying to find a way to 
get it done at less expense and at the local level rather than 
involve ALJ's and lawyers and all that.
    Mr. Thompson. The probate area for both the BIA and the 
Secretary's office, the ALJ side, they are both included in the 
high level plan as focus areas, so we have these on the radar 
screen but they are somewhat distant right now.

                            trust resources

    Mr. Regula. I can imagine. I have heard all kinds of 
numbers on the amount that is held in trust. Do you have a 
ballpark figure that you think is at issue here?
    Mr. Thompson. The amount held in trust in terms of the 
acres of land?
    Mr. Regula. No, in dollars, in royalty interest.
    Mr. Thompson. What we have, I don't think there is an asset 
value assigned to the 56 million acres I am aware of. The 
Office of Trust Funds Management in Albuquerque has a little 
over $3 billion in the bank, if you will, of tribal and 
individual Indian assets. That is basically cash.

                         trust fund investment

    Mr. Regula. Who manages that money as far as investing it 
to get a return?
    Mr. Thompson. We have an office in the Office of Trust Fund 
Management.
    Mr. Regula. You do that.
    Mr. Thompson. Yes.
    Mr. Regula. You determine whether it goes to T bills or do 
you have a constricted amount of assets that you can invest in?
    Mr. Thompson. By law, Mr. Chairman, we are obliged to stay 
within government secured paper. So we have some money invested 
in T bills, if you will. We invest money daily in Treasury, in 
what is called the sweep, in the overnighter. The bulk of the 
money is carried in accounts with Ginnie Mae, Fannie Mae, where 
we get a little better return. The return recently has been 
about 6 percent.
    Mr. Regula. That is not bad.
    Mr. Thompson. We are happy with that.
    Mr. Regula. Not for secured investments. Then that goes 
into the pool.
    Mr. Thompson. Correct.
    Mr. Regula. Minus the cost of managing it?
    Mr. Thompson. No, you pay for the management.
    Mr. Regula. That is part of the OST budget, part of your 
budget?
    Mr. Thompson. Yes, sir. We spend about $17 million a year 
on operations.

                             trust fund use

    Mr. Regula. How do you draw on that account? I assume that 
money belongs to individuals, to Tribes, and they each have an 
account.
    Mr. Thompson. They provide instructions about how they want 
the account managed.
    Mr. Regula. So it is a trust arrangement essentially.
    Mr. Thompson. Absolutely.
    Mr. Regula. If they want to build a school, they can draw 
on that.
    Mr. Thompson. If it is provided in the way the money was 
furnished to the Tribe, in judgment funds or other 
appropriations, usually there is restrictions on how they can 
use it. Most of the money they get to use is interest off of 
the accounts. You have several million dollars invested that is 
government money and the tribe gets the benefit of the interest 
on that. Lots of different variations on how the money is 
handed out.

                         trustee responsibility

    Mr. Regula. The trustee has the ultimate decision as to 
whether to release it on the basis of the application and the 
application of the law.
    Mr. Thompson. We have to concur with that, along with the 
BIA, that it meets the budget and the provisos that the money 
was provided for. There are several sets of approvals.
    Mr. Regula. Is most of this money generated by royalties?
    Mr. Thompson. It is interest on accounts. There are 
significant amounts of royalties in oil and gas, in timber, in 
grazing. Through these accounts each year, between revenues and 
interest earnings, the tribal accounts push through, in an 
annual basis, about $800 million on the $2.5 billion they have 
in their account.
    Mr. Regula. That is generated income.
    Mr. Thompson. That is the churn, if you will. In the case 
of the individual Indian accounts, it is about $300 million a 
year. This is proceeds of labor, interest, things like that. So 
there is quite a turnover in the money.
    Mr. Regula. So an individual could come in and say I want 
to buy an automobile and draw out of his or her account?
    Mr. Thompson. It is their account. They basically can spend 
it the way they want to, unless there a particular 
administrative hold on the account. We have certain situations 
where in the case of minors, for example, there has to be a 
permission slip, if you will, before we let them go out.

                             outyear budget

    Mr. Regula. I understand that. Is fiscal year 2000 the big 
budget year in terms of funding to fix the system, or can the 
committee expect to see major increases in the outyears?
    Mr. Thompson. This is the bubble year. We will probably 
have more work to do in the outyears, but it won't be an 
increase like you are looking at this year at all.

                      impact of budget reductions

    Mr. Regula. What happens if we don't have the increase?
    Mr. Thompson. I don't like to think about that and listen 
to Judge Lamberth talk to our attorneys and us about the 
consequences. If we don't have the increases, we will have to 
adjust our priorities and adjust how we go about this work. It 
means we will continue to be in a situation where we think we 
are not doing the trustees' job. I would hate to see that 
personally, because I think we have the inertia and have a 
window of opportunity there. A conjunction of the Secretary, I 
think the plaintiffs, the judge, Justice Department, everybody 
wants to see this done, and certainly the money you passed us 
in previous years indicates that is the sense of Congress, too.

                           bia budget impact

    Mr. Regula. I will have to ask Mr. Gover if he can take a 
reduction to move the money to the trustees.
    Mr. Thompson. Can I get out of the room first, sir?
    Mr. Regula. We will give you a 10-minute start. Well, I am 
just saying, you understand our dilemma.
    Mr. Thompson. I understand.
    Mr. Regula. It is a matter of trying to achieve the right 
priority in the allocation.
    Mr. Thompson. Balance.
    Mr. Regula. You are saying that this bubble is really 
essential for you in this particular year.
    Mr. Thompson. Yes.
    Mr. Regula. I presume Mr. Gover would agree with that.
    Mr. Gover. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Regula. Not to the point of giving up part of yours.
    Mr. Gover. Actually, some of the funds that would be in Mr. 
Thompson's budget would be for the BIA cleanup, so we very much 
support that request. In fact, I am anxious to say that that is 
our top priority. If there can only be one part of the budget 
that we get, that has to be it. If we don't get it done now----
    Mr. Regula. That is an important statement you are making. 
In a macro sense, the top priority is to deal with this trust 
fund problem.
    Mr. Gover. That is correct.
    Mr. Regula. Because it does touch the lives of individuals. 
You have how many accounts?
    Mr. Thompson. 300,000 individual accounts.
    Mr. Regula. That belongs to them, and they are entitled to 
what is rightfully theirs.
    Mr. Thompson. Yes, indeed.
    Mr. Regula. The only way you can determine that is through 
this process.
    Mr. Thompson. In this submission, we consolidated the 
Department's request. The large increase, about $37 million of 
it, is for BIA's work. We are doing this in a cooperative and 
joint fashion.
    Mr. Regula. We will go on. If you can stay, Mr. Obey is 
coming, and he may have some questions. In the meantime, Mr. 
Gover, your statement will be made a part of the record. 
Anything you want to add?

                        bureau of indian affairs

    Mr. Gover. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We realize the 
constraints within which the committee has to operate, and we 
are sympathetic. We wish it weren't so, but we understand that 
it is. Within those constraints, let me emphasize again that 
the trust management improvement program is our top priority. 
Obviously we would very much like to get our uncontrollable 
cost increases this year. We plead with the committee to help 
us accomplish that. Those, by the way, don't go strictly to 
BIA, they also go to our tribal contractors. Their costs have 
increased annually as well, and much of that line item goes to 
those contractors.
    But in the end, the top priority has to be the trust 
management improvement project.
    If we don't get this resolved in the next year, in Fiscal 
Year 2000, then a new administration comes in, and the whole 
set of players changes----
    Mr. Regula. And it starts over again.
    Mr. Gover. That is right. And I don't think any of us wants 
to do that. Mr. Thompson is right, we do have the momentum, we 
have the Secretary's commitment and the entire department is 
pushing forward on this effort.

                          school construction

    I will also add for the record, to the extent that there is 
any additional authority provided, the next priority would have 
to be school construction. Please excuse me. Let me introduce 
Hilda Manuel, Deputy Commissioner of Indian Affairs, and Joann 
Sebastian Morris, Director, Office of Indian Education 
Programs.
    If you will indulge me for just a moment, Ms. Morris will 
be leaving the Bureau of Indian Affairs today to move on to 
hopefully greener pastures. We will miss her a great deal. I 
want to commend her on the record for the work she has done in 
implementing the education reform programs of the Bureau. We 
really have some good work underway in that area. The result of 
it is while our classroom performance is improving, our 
buildings continue to deteriorate, to that extent we know we 
have $1 billion in new construction needs. That is just to 
replace 60 schools that we know must be replaced.
    Our proposal this year, if all the different elements were 
enacted, would give us approximately $100 million in 
construction authority. That would allow us to address about 
one-tenth of the backlog.
    Mr. Regula. That is schools.
    Mr. Gover. That is schools, just schools, although 80 
percent of our building space is schools. That is our greatest 
need.
    Mr. Regula. When you say schools, does that include health 
facilities? It is 80 percent of a total of health and 
education?
    Mr. Gover. Just education, 80 percent of BIA facilities.
    Mr. Regula. Right.
    Mr. Gover. Again, it is just a crying need. There are only 
two school systems that the Federal Government is directly 
responsible for. Those are the DOD schools and the BIA schools. 
We have been doing a little research on the DOD schools. While 
it is hard to develop precise comparisons, it is quite clear 
that those schools are in much better condition than ours.
    Mr. Regula. I am sure they are.
    Mr. Gover. In every conceivable respect. And it sends just 
a terrible message to our young people that they are growing up 
in schools that are inadequate. They are actually dangerous. 
And bit by bit, we are losing ground.
    We still have problems in our schools that other school 
systems had resolved a decade ago in terms of lead, in terms of 
asbestos and other forms of contamination that should not be 
part of any child's life. They are very much a part of these 
childrens' lives. To the extent any additional funds become 
available, that would be the next priority.
    We have a number of other areas where we have made smaller 
requests for increases. Understanding the restraints you are 
under, we think they are all well justified. We are not looking 
for the sorts of general increases we saw earlier in the 
decade. We realize that is out of the question. So we have 
tried to be very careful about where we are asking for money to 
address specific problems.

                               new tribes

    Just two examples, one for our new tribe's funding. We 
expect several Tribes to be recognized over the next couple of 
years. Each will require new funding if we are to avoid 
reducing the funding that is available to other Tribes.

                            contract support

    Second, we are asking for an increase in contract support. 
Contract support is critical because it is what allows for the 
implementation of the primary policy that the government has 
toward the Tribes today. As an example, we have recently put 
together figures showing that since 1981, the Bureau of Indian 
Affairs has shrunk from 17,000 employees to under 10,000. That 
is almost entirely the result of contracting these programs to 
the Tribes. One of the ironies of the Bureau, one of the 
oddities of the Bureau, is the more money you give us, the more 
the Tribes contract and the smaller our agency becomes. So it 
is a measure of our success when our program staff gets 
smaller.
    As much as any agency would like to have as many employees 
as possible, we like to see our agency get smaller, because 
that means the Tribes are taking more of these 
responsibilities.
    Mr. Regula. Has contracting been successful generally?
    Mr. Gover. So far, so good. We seem to have hit sort of a 
plateau in terms of contracting, where the Tribes are holding 
back and, as you know, these programs are so thinly funded at 
this point they are not so sure that they want this 
responsibility. Many of them would prefer to see us struggle 
with the lack of resources than to take it on themselves. 
Nevertheless, we continue to contract more programs, except 
this year during the moratorium, which we very urgently request 
the committee to lift as to the Bureau for next year, because 
we want to continue implementing those self-determination, 
self-governance policies.
    Contract support is a key element of that. The more we can 
support some of the basic costs that Tribes incur when they 
take over our programs, the more likely they are to take them 
on. So that is the essence of our request.

                              small tribes

    Let me mention one last thing, and that is $3 million for 
our small Tribes program. Some years ago, Congress urged us to 
adopt the approach of finding a minimum of $160,000 for every 
Tribe in the continental U.S. and $200,000 for the Tribes in 
Alaska. We have hit the first threshold with all Tribes. We now 
fund each Tribe at something over $160,000. We still have to 
close the rest of the gap as to the Alaska Tribes, because they 
have much higher costs in Alaska, and we continue to try to 
build on the funding for that program so we can get those 
Tribes up to $200,000.

                            law enforcement

    Last and not least, we come to law enforcement. We are 
deeply grateful for the funds that were provided by the 
committee last year and we have made, we believe, good use of 
them. We put about 100 new officers in the field--uniformed 
officers, another 30 or so criminal investigators, what you 
would call detectives. We have added many dispatchers and we 
have added a lot of folks at our various jail facilities. So it 
has already made a difference in Indian Country in terms of the 
resources we can bring to bear.
    Nevertheless, we come to you again and ask for another $20 
million increase to continue the process of building these 
police forces up to a level that is at least comparable to what 
the rest of the country enjoys, the rest of rural America. 
That, too, is a priority.
    So with that, Mr. Chairman, I would be happy to answer any 
questions. I have the Deputy Commissioner and the Education 
Director with me for the hard questions.
    [The statement of Mr. Gover follows:]

[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

    Mr. Regula. Mr. Obey, we have heard from the Office of 
Special Trustee, but he is still here. If you are ready to go, 
you can go forward.
    Mr. Obey. I just want to ask a few questions.
    Mr. Regula. Go ahead.
    Mr. Obey. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, 
I very much appreciate the fact that you changed the date of 
this hearing so that I could meet my responsibilities on the 
floor on the misguided supplemental that we passed.
    Mr. Regula. You mean by a small margin.
    Mr. Obey. And still be here today.
    Mr. Regula. That was an editorial comment about the quality 
of the supplemental.

                          bia-tribal relations

    Mr. Obey. Right. Mr. Gover, I don't know if you have ever 
been in your life at the point where you just want to give up 
on something. That is where I am with respect to the BIA. I 
really hate to say that.
    I have had a long relationship with the Tribes in 
Wisconsin. My very first action in Congress that related to 
them was to try to help the Stockbridge Munsee get their FSA 
lines back. I worked with Dita Beard and Lloyd Means, who was a 
great chairman of the Indian Affairs Subcommittee, and we got 
reversal of termination for the Menominees.
    While I was absolutely blown away by the implications of 
the court decisions on tribal hunting and fishing rights, I, 
nonetheless, was determined not to allow people in Wisconsin to 
play George Wallace and stand, not in the schoolhouse door, but 
at the boat landing, and disrupt what the courts said were 
constitutional rights that needed to be protected.
    I have a great deal of respect for the job that many of the 
Tribes have done in adverse circumstances, both economically 
and socially. But I have been incredibly frustrated by a number 
of actions that have been taken through the years. I won't even 
get into the, what I consider to be the huge misuse of tribal 
sovereignty in order to put gambling institutions in territory 
literally hundreds of miles away from reservations. That is 
another issue and I will get into that some other time.

                       lac courte oreilles school

    But I had an episode that occurred in my district which has 
just driven me up the wall, and it is basically this: In 1997, 
I asked this subcommittee and Senator Kohl asked the Senate 
counterpart to approve a little over $2 million to construct 
what was supposed to be a 17,000 square foot school building on 
the Lac Courte Oreilles Reservation in my district.
    We did that because the Tribe came to us and said look, we 
have a school that is dilapidated, the kids shouldn't be taught 
under these conditions. The school was condemned. So we 
appropriated money to build that 17,000 square foot building.
    I was on the reservation last year, and people said, hey, 
we have got a problem here. Look at the problem. And at that 
point I discovered that that money had been taken to build 
something else. It had been taken and used to build a 50,000 
square foot facility. The problem is, the Tribe didn't have 
enough money to finish that facility, so they ran out of money, 
and now you have an empty shell which is of absolutely no use 
to those kids or anybody else.
    When I discovered that, I also was told that the Tribe was 
now going to come to me and ask that I come to this committee 
again and ask for more money. I did not feel in conscience I 
could do that, because I felt like a bait and switch operation 
had occurred. I was not going to ask the committee to toss more 
money into a project like that, because I think it would not 
have been taken as a good faith action.

                       inspector general's report

    So I asked the Inspector General to do a report to try to 
figure out just how this happened. I am not interested in 
trying to blame any individual. I simply want to know how it 
happened and I want to know that it is never going to happen 
again, not just in my State, but in any other State.
    I am trying to figure out what the responsible thing is to 
do to fix the fact that we now have a white elephant on that 
reservation because of the misuse of funds by the people who 
were running the Tribe at that time, and I emphasize that is a 
different group than is running the tribe today.
    But I also think, frankly, there was a dereliction of duty 
on the part of the BIA. If you look at the report--also, I 
forgot, the report discovered that when that money was 
transferred to the reservation or to the Tribe, instead of 
using it immediately, they lent it out in an uninsured way, 
which put the entire amount of money at risk, and they lent it 
out at 37 percent interest. They made a killing on the money 
short-term. I think that raises some eyebrows, justifiably so.
    In my judgment, what we have here is an improper use of 
funds by the Tribe involved and a neglect of oversight duty by 
the BIA. My understanding in fact is that there were people in 
the BIA who understood this was going on and did not put a stop 
to it and sort of may even have halfway encouraged it. If that 
is not true, I would certainly like to know about it.

                             bia monitoring

    But that audit states that the BIA ``did not monitor the 
school's use of funds primarily because Public Law 102-97 
provided for the least possible Federal interference.'' At 
least that is what your agency gave as their justification for 
not overseeing this.
    Furthermore, in your memo responding to that audit, you 
stated you would like a modification of the IG's report stating 
that the--quoting, the authorizing legislation fails to provide 
authority for Bureau officials to adequately monitor the use of 
grant funds. The legislation further prohibits the Department 
from issuing any regulations regarding the planning, 
development, implementation, evaluation of grants, regulations 
were allowed only to describe the duties of the Bureau. We 
could not issue regulations on the duties and responsibilities 
of the grantees.
    That apparently is your position, is that correct?
    Mr. Gover. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Obey. I am sure you are aware the report is in strong 
disagreement with your position, but the report states that 
this prohibition on the issuing of regulations does not prevent 
you in any way from monitoring the use of funds, and let me 
read from that report. Chapter 10(b)(1), principles of Federal 
appropriations law, states that the right of a grantor agency 
to oversee expenditure of funds by the grantee to ensure the 
money is used only for authorized purposes and the grantee's 
corresponding duty to account to the grantor for its use of 
funds are implicit in the grant relationship and are not 
dependent upon specific language in the authorizing 
legislation.
    The report then continues, the Bureau is also authorized to 
issue regulations regarding its duties under the act, which 
would include monitoring the use of grant funds. The report 
then continues further, construction grants awarded pursuant to 
Public Law 100-297 require grantees to comply with title IV, 3, 
part 12, administrative and audit requirements, cost principles 
for assistance programs of the Code of Federal Regulations. 
Part 12.80(c) of the code provides for construction performance 
reporting and states ``the Federal agency will require 
additional formal performance reports only when considered 
necessary and never more frequently than quarterly.'' Then it 
goes on to say part 1280(e) of the code regarding construction 
performance, also states, Federal agencies may make site 
checks. It concludes by saying, we believe that the prohibition 
on issuing regulations does not prevent the Secretary from 
monitoring use of funds by the grantee.
    I would like to know your response.
    Mr. Gover. I stand both by my memo and I agree with what 
the IG said. I don't think we are prevented from monitoring. I 
think there are very clear limitations on what we are allowed 
to do in dealing with a grantee. You put your finger on several 
major problems and issues.
    Let me see if I can start by hopefully restoring your faith 
in both the Bureau and the tribal government. We did have the 
opportunity to sit down with the new leadership at Lac Courte 
Oreilles yesterday--
    Mr. Obey. So did I.
    Mr. Gover. They have come forward and we believe we are 
going to be able to work out this difficulty so that shell does 
get filled and that the Tribe assumes the responsibility for 
those costs. I just want to commend Chairman Gaiashkibos for 
coming forward in that way. Hopefully we will have, and they 
are talking about, having four to six classrooms completed this 
year so they can begin to fill in that shell. We will be 
working with them, we will provide technical assistance, and 
any other assistance they would like. We don't have money to 
give them because this committee has not given it to us. So if 
the Tribe proceeds along those lines, we are certainly going to 
do everything we can to cooperate.
    I think that that is the appropriate outcome for this 
issue.
    Mr. Obey. Let me say that response begs the question, with 
all due respect. First of all, if we had additional money, I 
would not ask this committee to give it to them at this point 
because I think there has been an improper use of Federal money 
and this committee would be derelict in its duty if it provided 
more money under those circumstances.
    But I would respectfully say, I think your memo is a 
copout. When the Congress appropriates money to an agency, it 
expects that that agency is going to see to it that money is 
spent for the purpose for which it was appropriated. When I see 
a situation in which it is fairly clear that the agency, at 
least someone in it, encouraged the tribe to believe they could 
properly use this money in the way they were using it, without 
getting into trouble, I think something is wrong with your 
agency.
    What I think--I mean, past conversations with the Tribe 
made it very clear to me, after this was discovered, they said 
well, the Congress is going to have to come in and fix this now 
and provide more money. I think somebody was betting on the 
committee on this one, and that is no way to deal with money 
that is appropriated by this committee. It discredits not just 
the Tribe, not just your agency, but it discredits any Member 
of Congress who continues to ask for funding for someone when 
they have misused money in that fashion.
    The primary victims in this case, thank God that the money 
wasn't lost in that risky loan that was provided, but the 
primary victims are the kids on the reservation who still don't 
have decent facilities. Also, I would say the primary victim is 
the confidence that ought to exist between this committee and 
your agency.

                              use of funds

    There is nothing, there is nothing in the law that 
prohibits the BIA from telling a Tribe that it is going to get 
into trouble if it does something that was not authorized by 
this Congress. My experience with the BIA, to be very blunt 
about it, over the past, if I look at the agency over the last 
60 years, I think that for about 20 or 30 years of the agency's 
life, in the fifties, for instance, I think the BIA was one of 
the biggest enemies of Tribes and Native Americans in this 
country. I think they did more to screw up the ability of 
Tribes to preserve their traditions and preserve their rights 
and gain a piece of the American economic dream at the same 
time. I think they did more to screw that up than almost 
anybody else in government you could name.
    My concern is that in the last 10 years or so, you have had 
an agency that has had an inability to say no to any Tribe on 
any subject whatsoever. So they have been going now in totally 
the opposite direction. When you don't keep your friends from 
doing dumb things, you cause serious problems for them and for 
the entire system. This is a case where I think there was an 
absolute failure on the part of your agency to oversee that 
Tribe.
    I am angry at the people in the Tribe who are responsible 
for this decision, but I am even more angry at the BIA for 
allowing this to go on knowingly, without at least informing 
the Congress or telling somebody in that Tribe that this was 
not the purpose that that money was provided for and that they 
shouldn't be betting that Congress will simply give them more 
money.
    I have almost reached the conclusion that the only way to 
deal with this is to eliminate the BIA and start from scratch 
and build a new agency, one which recognizes that sometimes the 
best way to keep your friends out of trouble is by saying no.
    Mr. Gover. Well, Mr. Obey, we don't disagree. You are 
absolutely right. It is very difficult for those folks in the 
field to say no. They are the ones on the frontline. Let me say 
that I don't know whether somebody told this tribe that it was 
okay to go ahead and take this gamble that Congress was going 
to be willing to come in on. They tell me that they did not. 
Whether that is true, I don't think we can ever know.
    But I will say that whatever attitude they took, whatever 
failures they may have committed, don't represent the opinions 
of management. I will also say that that Tribe has been 
petitioning us since I came into office. One of the first 
things I heard about was this case and they were asking us to 
make good on the rest of it. I said no, we are not going to do 
that. We are not going to make up for what has happened here.
    So, you know, we don't disagree by much.

                      investment of federal funds

    Let me talk about the disabilities that the Bureau is under 
in trying to monitor this. This notion of investing Federal 
funds in other than federally guaranteed investments----
    Mr. Regula. Which we prohibited as of last year. You were 
instrumental in that.
    Mr. Gover. But it was legal until enjoined in essence by 
the Congress. The only way we find out about that, after they 
have made the investment, is in the single audits that are 
done.
    Mr. Obey. That I understand, and I am not trying to pin the 
tail on the donkey on you for that one.

                            site monitoring

    Mr. Gover. Let me talk about the building monitoring, 
because that really is a problem. When we contract out for one 
of these things, first of all, we want to contract. The 
Congress wants us to contract, that is the idea, is to contract 
out as much of this as possible. The reality is we don't have a 
lot of folks at the facilities management and construction 
center to go out and monitor each of the dozens, if not 
hundreds of projects, that are carried out each year.
    So we didn't know until, frankly, it was too late in the 
game, that they were going beyond what we had agreed on.
    Again, I don't know exactly what happened here.

                             bia complicity

    Mr. Obey. I have been told, I should say more accurately, 
my staff has been told, that there were people in the BIA who 
gave the Tribe the impression that it was going to be all right 
to slip and slide in this way. I think that the report of the 
Inspector General at least implies that may have been the case. 
It says school officials told us that the reengineering 
laboratory team, which included officials from the Bureau's 
Facilities Management and Construction Center and the Office of 
Indian Education Programs promised to help them with any 
project funding shortfalls.
    Now, that, to me, indicates that they knew what was going 
on, they knew there were going to be shortfalls, and I think 
Congress was jerked around on this one. I don't know what to do 
about it yet, but I think we have got to have more 
conversations. I think the chairman and I have to have more 
conversations about this, because I have just lost all faith in 
your agency's ability to track this stuff. I have to tell you, 
I don't know what your hearing provided on the other subject 
before you came in, but I have tried for 10 years off and on to 
try to get an accounting of Federal money that has been used on 
various reservations, but I have been told for as much as 15 
years, going back to first time we tried it, that record 
keeping was so bad on reservations as well as in the BIA that 
you couldn't track what money had been spent on various 
reservations in the past. I find that frustrating too.

                           bia accountability

    I just do not know what to do about your agency. I don't 
want to blame you personally. I have no reason to blame you for 
what happened. This was not on your watch, as I understand it. 
But the taxpayer has got a right to know what the hell happened 
here, and he has also got a right to know it is never going to 
happen again.
    In my view, it is going to happen again, unless there is a 
different mind-set at BIA so that when Tribes try to bend the 
rules, somebody says hell, no, you can't do that, not and 
maintain our credibility.
    What do we do about this?

                             bia authority

    Mr. Gover. Again, you have covered a lot of ground. First 
of all, we look forward to talking with you more about this and 
any suggestions you might have. I am unafraid to implement 
exactly the kinds of reforms you are talking about. However, 
the lack of authority that the Bureau has in many of these 
circumstances are because of rules that Congress has made.
    Now, I know----
    Mr. Obey. You have general authority to make certain that 
the taxpayers' money is being used in a way consistent with 
actions taken by this committee, and you cannot make me believe 
and I don't think you can make the committee believe otherwise.
    Mr. Gover. We do have general authority. The question is, 
do we have the capacity to do the kind of monitoring you are 
talking about. As the Bureau has been downsized, including some 
devastating cuts 3 years ago, our ability to monitor what is 
going on out there has diminished accordingly.
    Mr. Obey. And I am not happy about that downsizing. I 
haven't voted for a lot of budgets around here the last 4 
years. But that does not deal with what happened in this 
situation, because it is obvious that the BIA was at some 
levels aware of what was going on and they did nothing.
    Mr. Gover. Well, Congressman, I will just say again, I 
agree that we have got to be able to account for the money. I 
hold no truck for anyone who wants to use appropriated funds 
for anything other than appropriated purposes. It has been a 
purpose of mine and the subject of a number of administrative 
efforts that we have made to deal with precisely that 
situation.

                         administrative review

    Let me also say we are looking at--we have called in the 
National Academy of Public Administrators to help us review our 
administrative organization with that, among other questions, 
in mind. How do we organize ourselves in order to adequately 
oversee funds that are provided to us?
    There are many reasons for how things got this way. I mean, 
I understand that Congress took the Bureau out of the tribes' 
lives in a lot of ways because the Bureau was doing such a bad 
job of it. We approve of that. Now we have swung way over to 
the other side where there is virtually no oversight in 
monitoring, and somehow we have to get ourselves back in a 
proper course, where there is a proper respect both for the 
prerogatives of the Tribe, which I believe in very deeply, but 
also for the fact we are accountable for public money.
    Mr. Obey. Well, I would just simply say that the report 
states your agency does have the right to oversee grant funds, 
that you are authorized to issue regulations regarding your 
duties, that you can require quarterly construction performance 
reports, that you can make site visits. I just think we need a 
different mind-set on the part of your agency.

                      national performance review

    I have a number of other questions about the designation 
under the National Performance Review and the role of the 
reengineering team which occurred in this instance, because the 
audit states on November 19th the school was officially 
designated as a lead project under the Department of the 
Interior's National Performance Review New School Construction 
Process Laboratory. The goal of the laboratory was to eliminate 
operational impediments to allow the construction of schools in 
3 or fewer years. I want to know how many projects were 
designated under the National Performance Review, what is the 
budget for the NPR New School Construction Process Lab. The LCO 
project was earmarked in the Interior Appropriations Act of 
1997. I want to know how many other projects designated under 
NPR were also so earmarked. I want to know how the LCO project 
came to get this designation. And I have got a number of other 
questions here.
    Mr. Gover. Okay.

                           bia plan of action

    Mr. Obey. I just want to say, you know you are not dealing 
with an antagonistic subcommittee here. Mr. Regula, the 
chairman, has been most helpful through the years, both when he 
was in the majority and in the minority, and despite the fact 
that I certainly don't agree with everything that has been 
occurring on reservations in my State, I regard myself as a 
friend of the Tribes and want to be helpful. I am not looking 
for any punitive action. But, by God, I want to know who was 
responsible and I want to know who was advising the Tribe at 
the time that gave them this lousy advice, and I want to see 
within a month a plan from your agency to guarantee that this 
is never going to happen again. Because until that happens, I 
am not willing to appropriate one cent to your agency.
    Mr. Gover. Then I will submit a plan within a month, sir.
    Mr. Obey. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate 
the time.

                           self determination

    Mr. Regula. I think you have hit on a really tough issue. 
It goes to the question of self-determination to some extent 
and how far do we go in just handing money out to Tribes 
without adequate supervision.
    Mr. Obey. Mr. Chairman, I know that you understand the need 
for self-determination, and I do too. I respect Tribal 
sovereignty. But nobody can convince me that you cannot both 
respect tribal sovereignty and respect the obligation of the 
agency to protect the use of taxpayer money.
    Mr. Regula. I think what you are saying is that 
responsibility of the agency follows the money. We are 
accountable to the taxpayer, and they therefore have to be 
accountable too. I think that is where you are heading on this 
issue. Ultimately I assume that the students in this area are 
getting shortchanged because they have got a shell of a 
building and no place or no way to use it.
    Mr. Obey. Right. This is something that should have been 
good, it should have left people with good feelings all the way 
around the horn. Instead, it has become just another failure. I 
am told that the Tribe is in a position where they will 
probably be able to pledge casino assets in order to get this 
thing fixed, so eventually these kids will get, while maybe not 
these kids, they may be out of school by the time it is done, 
but at least some kids will get a decent education. But 
meanwhile, we have created another discrediting mess.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Regula. Well, you are going to give us a report within 
a month?
    Mr. Gover. I will.
    Mr. Regula. It is very important. Do you have any further 
questions?
    Mr. Obey. No. I may have a few additional questions for the 
record. Thank you.

                       school bonding initiative

    Mr. Regula. You are welcome. Speaking of schools, you are 
proposing a 2-year $400 million school bond initiative designed 
to address the backlog. This is a new proposal, it provides tax 
rebates. Are you going to have a legislative proposal to be 
introduced to implement this concept?
    Mr. Gover. Mr. Chairman, if I am not mistaken, legislation 
has been proposed, not by the Department but by the White House 
or the Department of Education, that would authorize the 
program----
    Mr. Regula. I think that is in the education initiative of 
the President, am I correct?
    Mr. Gover. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Regula. Has there actually been a bill introduced, or 
is this just a proposal coming out of the White House?
    Mr. Gover. I believe a bill has been introduced in the 
Senate. I do not believe one has yet been introduced in the 
House. We will get a copy of the Senate bill.
    Mr. Regula. It seems to me that it has some interesting 
elements in it as to the repayment of the interest on these 
bonds. Who makes the judgment as to how they are allocated? Who 
allocates the authority to issue the bonds? I assume the $200 
million is to cover the whole landscape, and you may say school 
A, you can issue 10 million, you can issue 20. Who decides 
that?
    Mr. Gover. I believe we would decide at least as to the BIA 
schools. A Tribe is certainly free to build its own school.
    Mr. Regula. So the $200 million bonds would be just BIA 
schools?
    Mr. Gover. Yes.
    Mr. Regula. The bonding authority would rest with BIA, or 
with the Tribe?
    Mr. Gover. With the Tribe. The Tribe would be the actual 
issuer of the bond.
    Mr. Regula. What guarantees the repayment of the bonds?
    Mr. Gover. Well, our plan is that we would take the $30 
million that we have asked for under the initiative and we 
would allocate that to Tribes depending on the amount of bonds 
they wanted to issue. That would then be invested. So that 
money would be the guarantee for the ultimate repayment of the 
principal of the bond.
    Mr. Regula. You are saying in a period of 15 years, $30 
million would grow to $200 million?
    Mr. Gover. No, it would be less than $200 million. It would 
be more in the neighborhood of $70 to $75 million.
    Mr. Regula. Where does the balance come from?
    Mr. Gover. The balance would have to be Tribes willing to 
do that, just for the advantage of having the tax credits pay 
the interest. Whether they would do that, we don't know.
    Mr. Regula. Well, that would depend on the bondholders too. 
They would get the tax credits as an inducement to buy a bond 
at a low rate of interest.
    Mr. Gover. That is right, yes, sir. So we don't count on 
this frankly. I personally don't anticipate we would actually 
use $400 million in authority.
    Mr. Regula. I think there are a lot of unanswered questions 
on that whole thing.
    Mr. Gover. We would prefer obviously to ask you for $200 
million a year just to build schools. Realistically, that is 
not something we can ask and not something you can grant.

                               napa study

    Mr. Regula. Well, probably it is a little early to get into 
too many of the details until such time as the authorizing 
committee deals with this issue, because it will be a Ways and 
Means question by virtue of the tax waiver and the bonding 
authority. You are having a NAPA study done that is under way 
now, is that right?
    Mr. Gover. Yes.
    Mr. Regula. What do you hope to achieve as a result of the 
NAPA study? What benefit?
    Mr. Gover. We need some advice on how to set up our 
organization. The Bureau is vastly decentralized at this point. 
The vast majority of our personnel are out in the communities 
as opposed to here in Washington or even at our western 
headquarters.
    Mr. Regula. It has been a goal of this committee to go that 
route.
    Mr. Gover. An appropriate one. The problem is as you become 
more decentralized, you actually increase the need for central 
monitoring, and we have fallen far short in developing the 
systems we need to deal with these situations.
    Mr. Regula. This is the instance Mr. Obey is talking about.
    Mr. Gover. Precisely. Because we have dispersed our 
personnel and left Central Office very bare, we are not meeting 
some of our basic obligations as an agency in the areas of 
property management, records management, even our personnel 
systems, EEO. You name it, we are not doing very well.
    Mr. Regula. But you know that already. And I suppose the 
NAPA study will tell you that again?
    Mr. Gover. Well, we do not want them to just tell us. We 
told them, we have these problems, what we have asked them for 
is some recommendations on how to resolve them.
    Mr. Regula. Beyond just money, are you hoping they can 
recommend management techniques?
    Mr. Gover. Yes.
    Mr. Regula. No question there are probably some gaps on the 
way you managed with the funds available.
    Mr. Gover. One of the problems, Mr. Chairman, just to give 
you an idea, when the '96 RIF was conducted, what ended up 
happening with a lot of these functions, like property 
management and records management, where the duties of the 
property or records person at the area was RIFed, they no 
longer had a job, but the duty continued to exist, and so it 
was assigned to somebody else who already had a full-time job.
    And so those functions are suffering badly, and we have got 
to rethink how we organize our field offices to carry out those 
functions.

                           trust fund program

    Mr. Regula. Are you comfortable with what is happening in 
terms of the trust fund reforms discussed earlier?
    Mr. Gover. Comfortable is probably not the right word. We 
are----
    Mr. Regula. If you aren't, I have to ask you.
    Mr. Gover. We think it is a sound plan. We believe if you 
are able to meet our requests we will be able to carry out the 
functions that we described. And we really think that by the 
time we leave our office at the end of 2000, that at least the 
basics will have been completed and the next administration 
will inherit something that we can move forward with.
    Mr. Regula. Do you put the requests that they have as the 
number one priority since part of it comes to the BIA?
    Mr. Gover. Yes.
    Mr. Regula. I guess I really should say, you and the 
trustee have this plan as the number one priority of the 
Bureau?
    Mr. Gover. We could make no greater contributions to the 
future of this agency or Indian Country than resolving those 
trust systems.
    Mr. Regula. Probably you would have a fair piece in 
restoring confidence on the part of the Indian population in 
the Bureau. Am I making a fair statement there?
    Mr. Gover. I would hope so. I think that will take some 
time, but we would love to rewin the confidence of the tribes 
and the Indian people.

                          Secretarial Priority

    Mr. Regula. I gather it is the number one priority of the 
Secretary of Interior, too?
    Mr. Gover. It absolutely is. He told me to tell you that 
personally. The Secretary has been very supportive. He has made 
it clear to us all that that is the one thing that we must get 
done before we leave office.
    Mr. Regula. Well, I agree with that. And we may have to 
adjust some priorities within your two agencies to make sure 
you have the adequate funding, given our constraints. But it 
has been around long enough that it ought to be settled and so 
we can get on to doing it right in the future.
    Mr. Gover. If we commit those funds to that effort and we 
are able to get it done, then we won't need them year after 
year, as Mr. Thompson was describing. Many of these functions 
are one-time things that just have to be done. So that is not a 
terrible approach to take.

                            Fee for Services

    Mr. Regula. Do you as the trustee require or receive the 
money from rents and royalties, et cetera? Do you charge any 
fee against that money, or do you give 100 percent collection 
to the individual member or to the tribe that is the legal 
recipient?
    Mr. Gover. I believe that----
    Mr. Regula. Is the government carrying the overhead of all 
of this administration?
    Mr. Gover. We are. We never charge the beneficiary of the 
trust for our services in that regard.
    Mr. Thompson. And there is a very simple reason, nobody 
would pay for the services they are getting now.
    Mr. Regula. Well, you could say that again.
    Mr. Thompson. Nobody would pay for the services they are 
getting now.
    Mr. Regula. They would if you took the money out before you 
disbursed it.
    Mr. Thompson. Only if we knew that was the right money.
    Mr. Regula. No, I understand. I am talking prospectively.
    Mr. Thompson. Prospectively, the Department has the 
authority to charge for these services.
    Mr. Regula. A user fee, if you will.
    Mr. Thompson. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Regula. But you have not done so yet?
    Mr. Thompson. We have not.
    Mr. Regula. Do you contemplate you will?
    Mr. Thompson. I think that will have to be looked at once 
we get the fixes in place and we can offer--meeting a service 
you can get comfortably in the commercial side. I pay for my 
bank services. I pay for my investment services. It is not 
unreasonable. With the condition the systems are now, the 
records are in now, it is inconceivable.
    Mr. Regula. Basically we are spending money for two 
purposes. One is to do the prospective distribution, and the 
other is to correct the ills of the past, retroactively?
    Mr. Thompson. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Regula. And that one we can't do anything about except 
to try to solve it.
    Mr. Thompson. Correct.
    Mr. Regula. And the court is going to be involved in that 
overall dissolution. But, prospectively, it does not seem 
unreasonable that there ought to be some user fee or, as you 
describe it, banking charge, trustee charge, whatever you want 
to call it, to handle the funds on behalf of the tribe and/or 
the individual.
    Mr. Thompson. I think that is totally appropriate to look 
at that downstream.
    Mr. Gover. I do think though with a lot of these folks we 
are not talking about wealthy people----
    Mr. Regula. No, I understand that.
    Mr. Gover [continuing]. In most cases. And sometimes it is 
not their fault that the revenue generated by what they have 
inherited is so small that we could--I mean even--for example, 
I think we know that 61 percent of the accounts have less than 
$25,000.
    Mr. Thompson. $25.
    Mr. Gover. I am sorry, $25. And, obviously, if we charge 
them a user fee, in 3 months it is going to be gone.
    Mr. Regula. It might be a de minimis amount, but we need 
somehow to insure that you have the resources to do this job 
adequately.

                           Lease Negotiation

    Another question, who negotiates the contracts? If I am 
company A, and I want to lease a piece of land for timber and/
or oil or gas. Does the Bureau negotiate the contract between 
the lessee, the tribe and/or the individual Indian?
    Mr. Gover. If the landowner wants us to. The landowners can 
also conduct their own negotiations. If they come to us and say 
we have struck a deal, we want you to approve it, we will 
approve it if it meets our requirement of fair market value.
    Mr. Regula. Well, that is the question. But you have a fair 
market value test?
    Mr. Gover. Yes.

                             Direct Payment

    Mr. Regula. Now, can the landowner negotiate with the 
lessee to have the royalty payments sent directly to the 
landowner, or does it have to funnel through your trust 
account?
    Mr. Thompson. They may set up a direct payment arrangement, 
it occurs in some situations.
    Mr. Regula. I would think they would like to do that.
    Mr. Gover. Many of them do.
    Mr. Thompson. Many of them do. In the past that has been 
proposed in other instances, particularly in the Minerals 
Management Service for oil and gas payments, yet many of the 
Indian leaseholders prefer to have somebody helping them, 
looking over their shoulder, somebody to make sure they aren't 
being taken advantage of.

                            Lease Agreements

    Mr. Regula. Probably even in structuring a lease itself 
they want to have the assistance of the Bureau?
    Mr. Thompson. In some cases, yes.
    Mr. Regula. Do you have knowledgeable people that will 
advise this perspective lessor to get them the best possible 
deal?
    Mr. Gover. Yes. And we have to approve the lease in any 
event, so we are going to be involved at one end or the other 
of the lease agreement.
    Mr. Regula. Is this true of all leases involving individual 
Indian lands, as well as tribal lands?
    Mr. Gover. Yes. Trust lands.
    Mr. Thompson. Trust lands, yes.
    Mr. Regula. When you say "trust lands," these are not lands 
that an individual would go out and buy from his neighbor, for 
example?
    Mr. Gover. Right. Right. Like my home is not Indian trust 
property. But on the reservations, most of the land owned by 
individual Indians are in trust.
    Mr. Regula. So, actually, they get a deed from the United 
States. Is the original deed to these individual holdings that 
are in a part of the trust granted originally by the United 
States to a tribe or to an individual?

                    Individual Indian Land Holdings

    Mr. Gover. Both. The way the individual grants came about 
is that at the turn of the century, the policy was to break up 
tribal landholdings and allot them to Indian individuals. So, 
yes, the deed, the trust deed came from the United States to 
the individual. The United States, however, continues to hold 
the legal title to the lands. The individuals hold the trust 
title. They are the beneficiary of the trust.
    Mr. Regula. But not your house?
    Mr. Gover. Not my house, that is right.
    Mr. Regula. Well, good.
    Mr. Thompson. We can check on that.
    Mr. Regula. Well, it is kind of a unique arrangement, I 
guess, having done a lot of work with titles and land sales, et 
cetera. In my office I have an original patent that was on 
sheepskin, where the President in 1816 made a land grant to an 
individual. He probably paid him off for fighting in the War of 
1812 with the land in Ohio, and it came down through the chain 
of the family. But the Indian lands are different.
    Mr. Gover. We have those--we actually have those patents 
going back to even earlier than 1890, depending on the 
particular reservation, so we have ancient documents.
    Mr. Regula. I presume there were patents granted to tribes, 
as well as to individuals from the government originally.
    Mr. Gover. I think actually, the way it worked was the 
tribes were, of course, the original owners and when they 
signed----
    Mr. Regula. That is true.
    Mr. Gover [continuing]. When they signed the treaty, they 
were actually giving the United States a deed. But there have 
to be documents somewhere recording, you know, what was left to 
the tribes.

                           reservation lands

    Mr. Regula. I assume part of the strictures in conveying is 
to maintain the integrity of the tribal reservation lands so 
you don't have them broken up.
    Mr. Gover. And, in fact, to enhance it. That is really the 
essence of the policy and has been since the early '80s, when 
Congress said we have got to--well, since the '30s to 
reconsolidate the tribal land base, and this allotment policy, 
that is why we need that fractionation interest legislation. If 
we are able to acquire the small interests, give them back to 
the Tribe, we can rebuild these land bases and solve an 
enormous problem.
    Mr. Regula. You need legislation to do that?
    Mr. Gover. In order to carry out the whole of the program 
we probably--it is easier if we do. We spent 5 million.

                       Fractionation Legislation

    Mr. Regula. Is there a bill?
    Mr. Gover. We submitted a bill. It is not yet introduced. 
We are still working with the authorizing committee on some 
details. We would prefer the legislation. We will continue to 
take money, and we have asked for $10 million this year to 
acquire those interests. And we will work on a year-by-year 
basis, if that is all we can get. We just think it would be 
better to have an overall authorizing statute.
    Mr. Regula. So you can consolidate this interest which 
might be----
    Mr. Gover. Close some of the tiny accounts that Mr. 
Thompson's organization is administering and just reduce the 
management and recordkeeping load dramatically.
    Mr. Thompson. It will also make the lands much more 
valuable for leasing.
    Mr. Regula. I can understand for a potential lessee who 
runs a title on a piece of land and finds 100 interests, he 
will throw up his hands----
    Mr. Thompson. Exactly right.
    Mr. Regula [continuing]. Because you would never have a 
degree of certainty that he was paying the right person or 
persons.
    Mr. Gover. That is right. And our regulations require that 
the owners of at least one-half of the interest agree before 
there can be a lease.
    Mr. Regula. I can understand that.
    Mr. Gover. And sometimes it is impossible. And so we don't 
really know how many acres out there are basically unleasable 
because of this fractionated interest problem.
    Mr. Regula. It seems to me that there ought to be some 
urgency about the legislation to give you authority to try to 
resolve that problem.
    Mr. Gover. We have expressed our views about that as 
aggressively as possible. We will continue to do so and hope 
the authorizing committees----
    Mr. Regula. Aggressively to Mr. Young, for example, at the 
authorizing committee?
    Mr. Gover. Yes, sir. The Secretary himself met with Mr. 
Young to let him know how badly we need this.
    Mr. Regula. And I would think in his State there would be a 
substantial problem with that.
    Mr. Gover. Actually not in Alaska as it happens. They hold 
their land in a different way. So there is not near the problem 
there, but certainly in the Lower 48 it is a problem in 
virtually every State.

                            oklahoma tribes

    Mr. Regula. I am just curious, in Oklahoma, as I understand 
it, there are no reservations but they have tribes based on a 
common bond, and not on land ownership, is that accurate?
    Mr. Gover. There remains some Indian lands in Oklahoma, in 
fact, a lot of Indian lands, and almost all of it held by 
individual allotees. So the problem of fractionated interest 
and all of these small accounts is--I have a tiny piece of land 
in Oklahoma that generated 7 cents last year that Tom has in 
his custody and is taking good care of it and reporting to me 
quarterly that my 7 cents is still there. And that is an 
example of the problem. So even in Oklahoma, there are many, 
many examples of that.

                           tribal membership

    Mr. Regula. Does each Tribe make its own judgment 
determination as to what fraction you need to establish for 
membership?
    Mr. Gover. Yes, in terms of blood quantum, the Tribes--
    Mr. Regula. I am not talking about land, I am talking about 
individual.
    Mr. Gover. Yes, the Tribes define the rules of membership 
in their Tribe.
    Mr. Regula. It could be very important when you have a 
casino.
    Mr. Gover. It can be very important, and in fact it has led 
to some real controversies among some of the Tribes over who 
should and should not be a member. It is a real challenge for 
them to make those decisions with some integrity.
    Mr. Regula. Well, we will submit a list of questions for 
the record, and I am sure Mr. Obey will have some. We will 
appreciate a prompt response as we get further down the road in 
allocating the resources. We may want to informally discuss 
that with you as to your priorities in light of what is 
available. We want to make the best possible use of the dollars 
that we have, and we value your judgment in working with us on 
doing that.
    Mr. Thompson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

                          school construction

    Mr. Regula. And I appreciate your coming this morning. We 
had to change the time, but I wanted to accommodate Mr. Obey, 
who was very involved on the House floor in the last 2 days.
    I would be curious, was this school building built on 
expectations of large enrollments, or why was it built so large 
that there was nothing left to do to the interior?
    Mr. Gover. I think they just--I mean, it is not as though 
they couldn't make use of the additional space. I mean our 
schools are not luxurious by any stretch. We give them the bare 
minimum of what would make for an adequate building. The tribe 
chose to go beyond that, and I will find out who in the Bureau 
was involved and what they said.
    I do know, though, for the record, that the IG report 
doesn't say--it made no finding that BIA employees said that 
this was okay. It said that the tribal school board----
    Mr. Regula. It had a right to it and didn't exercise it?
    Mr. Gover. It said the tribal school board said that the 
BIA said it was okay, and our people have denied that. I don't 
know, you know, whether you or I are capable of discovering the 
truth.
    Mr. Regula. Is the building not usable as it is?
    Mr. Gover. It needs to be--we need to install an interior, 
and the tribe has agreed to do that. I mean there is just 
nothing inside. It is a shell. It is a cinder block shell.
    Mr. Regula. When you are saying nothing, are you talking 
about blackboards and desks or walls, lavatories?
    Mr. Gover. Walls, lavatories, plumbing, et cetera, it is a 
shell.
    Mr. Regula. Why wouldn't they let a contract that did the 
whole building?
    Mr. Gover. I don't know the answer to that.
    Mr. Regula. Do you think this was just done on anticipation 
that either the Bureau or somebody would provide the money?
    Mr. Gover. Yes, I do.
    Mr. Regula. Well, the sad part is those students are 
getting short-changed.
    Mr. Gover. Well, I believe that the new leadership in the 
Tribe is committed to making things right, and we intend to 
work with them to do everything we can.
    Mr. Regula. How large is this Tribe in numbers?
    Mr. Gover. I don't know. I don't know how many members it 
has.
    Ms. Manuel. 2700.
    Mr. Regula. They do have a casino, I gather, from what was 
said earlier. Well, we want to avoid those mistakes in the 
future.
    Thank you for coming.
    Mr. Gover. You are welcome, Mr. Chairman, any time.
    Mr. Regula. We will keep in touch. The committee is 
adjourned.
    [Additional questions for the record follow:]

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                                           Tuesday, March 23, 1999.

                         INDIAN HEALTH SERVICE

                               WITNESSES

MICHAEL H. TRUJILLO, MD, MPH, MS, ASSISTANT SURGEON GENERAL, DIRECTOR, 
    INDIAN HEALTH SERVICE
MICHAEL E. LINCOLN, DEPUTY DIRECTOR, INDIAN HEALTH SERVICE
KERMIT SMITH, CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER, INDIAN HEALTH SERVICE
GARY J. HARTZ, ASSISTANT SURGEON GENERAL, ACTING DIRECTOR, OFFICE OF 
    PUBLIC HEALTH
    Mr. Regula [presiding]. Okay, we will get started on our 
hearing this morning. Today we have the Indian Health Service. 
Health is a very important part of our life for each person. If 
you have good health, you are very blessed; and if you do not, 
why you do the best you can to cope. So, doctor, we will put 
your full statement in the record and let you summarize for us.
    Dr. Trujillo. Yes. Good morning, Mr. Chairman, and thank 
you very much. And, good morning, Mr. Skeen. Nice to see you 
again.
    Mr. Skeen. Good to see you all.
    Dr. Trujillo. For the record, I would like to present a 
statement from Secretary Shalala. She was not able to be 
present today, but she is submitting a formal statement to the 
committee for the record.
    Mr. Regula. Without objection. This will be a part of the 
record.
    [The statement of Secretary Shalala follows:]

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                              introduction

    Dr. Trujillo. Thank you. With me today, I have Mr. Michael 
Lincoln, who is the Deputy Director; Mr. Gary Hartz, who is our 
Chief of Environmental Sanitation Programs and also is 
directing our Office of Health Programs at the present time; 
and Dr. Kermit Smith, who is our Chief Medical Officer for the 
Agency.
    And, of course, our written statement has been submitted 
for the record.
    [The statement of Dr. Trujillo follows:]

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    I would like to very much thank you and the committee 
members and staff for last year's appropriations and our 
working relationship and, again, for all your assistamce and 
conversations with the Indian Health Service, tribes, and the 
urban programs.
    Mr. Regula. We do the very best we can, but we have limited 
resources, as you know.

                             oral statement

    Dr. Trujillo. Yes. We well know that. I am very pleased to 
present the President's proposed Fiscal Year 2000 budget for 
the Indian Health Service. I believe it is a very good first 
step in the right direction that the Administration has taken.
    The budget develops and reflects priorities of the tribes, 
urban programs, and the Indian Health Service, through 
extensive consultation and involvement, and in a collaborative 
partnership that continues, I believe, to strengthen. It also 
begins to restore and maintain some of the access to basic care 
and prevent further erosion of the health status of American 
Indians and Alaska Natives. It also begins to address some of 
the disparities in health status and attempts to begin 
decreasing the widening gap that exists between that of 
American Indians and Alaska Natives as compared to the rest of 
the population of the U.S.
    I believe it continues to build upon the public health 
programs of the Indian health care system that really has been 
the mainstay of our health care delivery system.
    It also attempts to continue building tribal capacity for 
those tribes who wish to choose, through self-determination, to 
administer and manage their own health care systems.
    Secretary Shalala has been extremely supportive, and, as 
you read in her statement, has been very much behind the Indian 
Health Service budget proposals throughout the entire process; 
She continues to strongly advocate for additional resources. 
She did submit this written testimony for the record.

                       president's budget request

    The President's proposed budget is $2.4 billion, an 
increase of $170 million, eight percent over the 1999 
appropriations. We also include an estimated amount of $375 
million in collections and, through new rate changes with 
Medicaid reimbursements, an additional $82 million will be 
collected in 1999 and 2000.
    We also propose $118 million for clinical, preventive, and 
environmental health; $135 million for sanitation and facility 
construction; $253 million for contract support costs for 
tribes, which is an increase of $35 million over the 1999 
budget; $29 million for urban health care programs, which is an 
increase of $3 million over the 1999 budget; and, $8 million 
over the 1999 budget for maintenance and improvement and 
equipment.
    The American Indian/Alaska Native people, we both serve, 
continue to increase in numbers, and the cost of medical care 
continues to increase yearly. We must take this into account as 
we assess the needs of Indian health care.
    My sisters and brothers, my aunts and uncles, my 
grandfathers and grandmothers across this nation continue to 
face major, growing, and sometimes devastating health problems 
and the lack of access to quality, effective, and efficient 
health care in many locations.
    Unfortunately, in my travels, I continue to see the 
devastating effects of alcoholism, accidents, chronic 
degenerative diseases, suicides, disruptive and violent 
behavior, child and family abuse, just to name a few. 
Unfortunately, many of these problems are directly related to 
poverty, lack of education, lack of economic and employment 
opportunities, poor and insufficient housing, and lack of roads 
and transportation. And, many of us face outright 
discrimination and racism.

                      disparities in health status

    While I am grateful for this budget, and it is a first step 
and it reflects an eight percent increase over last year's 
appropriation, you and I, the Congress, the Administration, and 
tribal leadership still have a long way to go. We must work 
together to address the great disparities of health of American 
Indians and Alaska Natives as compared to the non-Indian U.S. 
population. The needs are great and the task is enormous, but 
it can be done together.
    This past year, tribal leadership and urban health care 
program directors presented an $8 billion needs-based budget to 
the Department. That represented the needed resources for the 
Indian Health Care program to close some of the gaps with the 
rest of the nation. But it only reflected the major and urgent 
priorities of the tribes and Indian health care.

                         fixed costs increases

    This year's budget proposal does not include the full need 
to replace ongoing inflationary cost and pay costs. It does not 
include resources for population growth. These are ongoing, 
mandatory needs that must be addressed somehow. There are 
decreases to the Community Health Representative program and 
for Physician Comparability Pay. We also need to address 
essential funding increases for a number of priority 
initiatives such as elderly care, child and adolescent 
initiatives, Indian Health professions, traditional health, 
immunizations, tobacco prevention, cancer and heart disease 
prevention, and epidemiology programs.
    There is a continuing and growing need for increased 
funding for contract health services, contract support costs 
which are resources for tribes, and additional funds for urban 
health care programs to help close the gap that we all know 
about.

                        budget resolution impact

    Unfortunately, the impact of the Senate Budget Committee's 
proposed Budget Resolution of 12 percent decrease across the 
board will wipe away any gain that this budget proposes. 
Hopefully together, we might be able to work with the Senate so 
that this Budget Resolution does not come to pass.
    I hope that we will be able to work together openly to 
assess how the great needs in these areas and others might 
begin to be more fully addressed in this year of a large 
Federal budget surplus. Surely, something can be done on an 
incremental basis for the first people of this nation.

                           statement summary

    As Director of the Indian Health Service, I will continue 
to travel to the field as much as possible and assess how we 
all are doing and what more can be done. I will continue to 
advocate for the needs of American Indians and Alaska Natives 
across the country. And, I will continue to fully support 
tribal self-determination in its fullest extent and the need to 
consult with and involve tribal leadership.
    We all can do better this year and in the next millennium. 
We have an opportunity before all of us to make things right.
    In closing, I would like to quote an 1879 speech given by 
Chief Joseph of the Nez Perce Tribe. This quote was given to me 
by the present Chairman of the Nez Perce Tribe. It states:

    I have heard talk and talk, but nothing is done. Good words 
do not last long until they amount to something. Good words 
will not give my people good health and stop them from dying. 
Good words will not get my people a home where they can live in 
peace and take care of themselves. I am tired of talk that 
comes to nothing. It makes my heart sick when I remember all 
the good words and all the broken promises.

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman. May the good Spirit take care of 
you on your path. I hope that what we do now and in the future 
are not just good words.

                     fixed costs/program increases

    Mr. Regula. Thank you. I just have a couple of questions, 
initially. One is I notice the Administration's increase is 
mostly in programs and not in fixed costs. I think priority-
wise if you do not handle the fixed costs, you end up reducing 
services in each site to pay the uncontrollables. Given a 
choice, would you rather have expanded programs or would you 
rather we address the fixed costs?
    Dr. Trujillo. That is a very good question, Mr. Chairman. 
One of the things that I would like to say is we would, of 
course, like to have both. [Laughter.]
    Mr. Regula. I am surprised. I am shocked. [Laughter.]
    Dr. Trujillo. However, over the past years, in regards to 
our mandatory costs--pay costs, inflation, population growth--
we have had to absorb over a quarter of a billion dollars; that 
comes out of our operation programs. We have been able to 
collect some reimbursements from our collections in Medicare, 
Medicaid, and insurance. However, that does not cover the full 
operating cost of our day-to-day programs in Indian Health 
Service and especially in our tribal programs.
    It does come out of direct services to keep the doors open, 
and we have felt the impact. We have economized. We have 
downsized. We have done many things to increase efficiency. The 
effect of not attaining full mandatory program costs is, 
indeed, a major impact in the field.
    Mr. Lincoln, would you like to add anything on that?
    Mr. Lincoln. Just a couple of thoughts, Mr. Chairman. Our 
budget was formulated on restoring access to health services, 
which really addresses those fixed costs that you mentioned. It 
was also formulated upon reducing the gap in health disparities 
between American Indian, and Alaska Native people and other 
peoples in this country. It is the combination of this two-
pronged approach that allows us to improve health status.
    As the Director said, we have absorbed a great deal of 
mandatory current service costs. The Agency is at a point 
though where its increased collections through Medicare and 
Medicaid, especially given the new rates that have been 
approved, are reaching their limit, in our opinion.
    I would add a final point in that when you look at the 
disease burden on Indian people, one must focus some resources 
on those emerging health problems of women and the elderly and 
children and problems associated with injuries.
    Mr. Regula. So I guess you are saying a little bit of both. 
You know we are going to be in a tight budget because of the 
budget caps?
    Dr. Trujillo. Yes.
    Mr. Regula. And I do not know what we will be able to do 
for you. Would it be possible to say what is your highest 
priority given the limited resources?
    Dr. Trujillo. Well, several. Certainly, our ongoing 
services are essential. One of the problems that we have seen 
because of the absorption of mandatory costs is having to deal 
more and more with acute care problems such that some of our 
preventive programs in public health services have suffered; as 
the patient population grows and inflation increases, the cost 
of doing business grows. Much of our diversion of some of our 
needed resources are now going into more and more acute care 
versus some of the public health and preventive services that 
really will be effective over the period of time.
    Mr. Regula. Mr. Dicks.

                     impact of 12 percent reduction

    Mr. Dicks. Mr. Chairman, I want to thank your witnesses. 
Your point made is if we get--if we have to accept a 12 percent 
decrease, I mean, that would be pretty devastating, would it 
not?
    Dr. Trujillo. Yes, the impact would be severe. We would see 
a decrease in services in all of our categories; a decrease in 
our public health and community services and outreach programs, 
including a decrease in our staffing. Not only will it affect 
the Indian Health Service, but it also will affect urban 
programs and the tribal programs. It will essentially wipe out 
any advances that we have made over the past several years.
    Mr. Dicks. So your--the budget calls for an eight percent 
increase?
    Dr. Trujillo. That is correct.
    Mr. Dicks. So you had to take a 12 percent decrease. Is 
that from the budget or is that 12 percent from last year's 
level?
    Dr. Trujillo. It is 12 percent from the budget.

                      update on shoalwater indians

    Mr. Dicks. From the budget. Are you aware of the problem we 
have had out in the State of Washington with the Shoalwater 
Indians?
    Dr. Trujillo. Yes, I am.
    Mr. Dicks. Can you give us an update on that?
    Dr. Trujillo. Well, in fact, just this past week, we have 
been able to work with the Shoalwater Tribe, the Centers for 
Disease Control, and the State of Washington. We have one of 
our epidemiologists and chronic disease experts assigned to 
that particular program. There has been a committee to address 
the ongoing problems with members of the Shoalwater Bay Tribe. 
And most recently, some increased amount of miscarriages. The 
team has assessed those. CDC now has an individual evaluating 
those particular miscarriages. It appears not to be the same 
type of miscarriages that they had about three years ago.
    We have now established a clinic there. The tribe, CDC, and 
the Indian Health Service have been working very closely 
together. Some of the miscarriages also seem to be outside of 
the tribal population. So they are looking at other 
possibilities that are not specific to the Shoalwater Tribe per 
se.
    Mr. Dicks. Staff reminded me that a couple of years ago, we 
had around $100,000 for the Shoalwaters. Did that become of 
their base?
    Dr. Trujillo. It has gone into their health care program, 
their operations, and their clinic program. They are now 
operating and managing their own health care program with 
assistance and collaboration with our regional office in 
Portland, Oregon.
    Mr. Dicks. Mr. Director, in sharp contrast to last year's 
budget request, as we just talked about, for the Indian Health 
Service, this year's reflects $170 million, a seven point five 
percent increase. That is the good news.
    The bad news is the budget resolution that we have 
mentioned. Your budget summary indicates that even with a seven 
point five increase, you would only begin to slow down some 
recent declines in certain health status indicators. In an 
ideal world, what level of funding would you believe--would you 
provide for the IHS?
    Dr. Trujillo. I mentioned earlier, a number of tribal 
leaders, the National Indian Health Board, and some urban 
program directors presented to the Department this past year a 
needs-based budget of approximately $8 billion. That would 
cover some of the major priorities that the Indian leadership 
and health care programs developed.
    While this budget of $2.4 billion proposed by the President 
is certainly not attaining the $8 billion, it certainly is a 
good step in the right direction. Hopefully over a period of 
time, we may be able to approach a more reasonable funding 
level for the entire health care delivery program.

                            aging facilities

    Mr. Dicks. Your summary also indicates that the average age 
of Indian Health Service facilities is 32 years--this, in 
contrast to the private sector where facilities average nine 
years. This is despite the investment of nearly $800 million 
since 1980 for facilities construction. Can you quantify the 
effect on the IHS of the aged facilities, either in terms of 
additional costs for maintenance or diminished patient service?
    Dr. Trujillo. The average age is in the 30's. However, you 
also would have to look at some of the extremes--and that is 
just the average. There are more recent facilities--but, we 
also have some facilities that are much older than the 30 
years.
    It becomes very expensive to remodel and maintain the older 
facilities as we go on. The effectiveness and efficiency of 
care within those facilities are a major problem. And, many of 
these are also in remote sites. Mr. Hartz, would you like to 
add anything more to this area?
    Mr. Hartz. Yes, Congressman Dicks, in responding to what 
that need is we have taken a look at the entire universe of 
these facilities, and, as Dr. Trujillo indicated, many of them 
exceed 60 years of age. We are looking at about $3.2 billion to 
deal with the whole problem of facilities. But when you talk 
about those aged facilities, you also start looking at what the 
need is to address the maintenance and repair of them; we are 
in the ballpark of $390 million, some of which--just to give 
you a specific, is to deal with seismic considerations that 
have to be addressed in Federal facilities. They are pretty 
substantial when you look at buildings that are of masonry 
construction and were built 50 or 60 years ago. So, yes, it 
does have an effect on the access to health care when people 
are looking at the demographics of what needs to be in place to 
deal with ambulatory care, when, we might be sending them to 
what used to be a TB sanatorium.
    Mr. Dicks. As of this January, as you just mentioned, your 
backlog of essential maintenance, alteration, and repair, 
BEMAR, stands at $389 million. What do you estimate will be the 
average age of facilities and the size of BEMAR in five years?
    Dr. Trujillo. We continue to update that particular list, 
and Mr. Hartz can give you some more specifics on that.
    Mr. Hartz. I could actually go ahead and calculate that and 
provide it for the record.
    Mr. Dicks. Why do not you do that?
    [The information follows:]

[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

    Mr. Hartz. One of the things that does come to mind very 
quickly is that according to the National Academy of Sciences 
one should be putting in around two to four percent of the 
value of your facilities for M&I. That is if you have nine-
year-old facilities. We are talking 32-year-old facilities in 
IHS, and we are putting in about 1.4 percent. That figure we 
will provide for the record.

                                diabetes

    Mr. Dicks. One of the special concerns that Congress and 
the Indian Health Service have tried to address in recent years 
is diabetes in Indian country. What impact has the targeted 
five-year $150 million effort had on this debilitating disease?
    Dr. Trujillo. We have developed a coalition of tribes, 
urban programs, and the Indian Health Service to not only look 
at grants for tribes and programs in the field, but also extend 
our reach into other Federal programs and agencies, 
universities, and academic medical centers. We have established 
preventive and public health programs, strengthened some of the 
direct health care delivery systems that the tribes and the 
Indian Health Service have, and also added on to the model 
diabetes programs. Dr. Smith, would you like to add anything?
    Dr. Smith. Yes, thank you very much. We are also using this 
money as seed money while we are developing partnerships with 
CDC, tribes, and other outside organizations that are 
interested in diabetes. We are looking at the possibility of 
working with the Joslin Diabetes Center and other organizations 
that deal with diabetes.
    Mr. Dicks. Is it true that diabetes in Indians is 350 
percent higher than the U.S. population as a whole?
    Dr. Trujillo. It is an epidemic among Indian people. In 
fact, it is very similar to the TB scourge that happened years 
ago. When you look at the population that is being diagnosed 
with diabetes, we are now seeing patients with Type II diabetes 
who are now age 14, 12, and 10. We are going to see the 
ramifications of that disease in their early 20's; with 
increase in cardiovascular disease, problems with eyesight, and 
kidney failure. The devastation among Indian people as a 
consequence of diabetes is a major epidemic.
    Mr. Dicks. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Regula. Mr. Skeen?
    Mr. Skeen. In connection with that, Dr. Trujillo, is that 
the most serious problem now in all the reservations and is it 
diabetes?
    Dr. Trujillo. I believe it is.
    Mr. Skeen. I was really shocked.
    Dr. Trujillo. I think the long-term effect of diabetes is 
going to be astronomical. We are just seeing the tip of the 
iceberg now. We continue, of course, to have major problems in 
mental health, problems with alcoholism and accidents. The 
long-term effect of diabetes on the populations where half of 
those members may be diabetic or tending towards diabetes is 
going to be astronomical, not only for the social and the 
family problems that will occur, but also for the costs of 
health care that we will have five, ten, and twenty years from 
now.
    Mr. Skeen. Is the correction for that--is it diet or is it 
something else what remedy do you have?
    Dr. Trujillo. It is a combination of awareness, education, 
diet, exercise, and a----
    Mr. Skeen. The whole spectrum on that?
    Dr. Trujillo. Whole spectrum of preventive and public 
health services, as well as for those individuals who have been 
diagnosed as diabetic or have a family history of it. We must 
make sure that they are aware of the treatment and are very 
well controlled if they do have diabetes.
    Mr. Skeen. Is it one of or probably the number one health 
problem?
    Dr. Trujillo. I would say, cardiovascular disease, 
accidents, and diabetes remain very, very high.
    Mr. Skeen. That gives you the whole picture.
    Dr. Trujillo. Yes.
    Mr. Skeen. I heard you say accidents?
    Dr. Trujillo. Accidents also are a major problem in 
morbidity and mortality, especially among the youth, 
adolescents and young adults.
    Mr. Skeen. Well, having served a little time with the Zuni 
and Ramah Navajos and so forth, why I can understand it.
    Dr. Trujillo. Yes, yes.
    Mr. Skeen. In other words, we were losing people week by 
week.
    Dr. Trujillo. Zuni, for example, has had a major problem 
with diabetes, but they also established some excellent 
community programs. They strengthened their exercise, diet, and 
involvement of the young. They established a model program that 
has been duplicated in other areas, among Indian programs. But 
there still is a major problem in Zuni. We see a continuing 
dialysis rate increase among patients in that population.
    Mr. Skeen. Well, I know about a hospital.
    Dr. Trujillo. Oh, yes.
    Mr. Skeen. The one of the bluff?
    Dr. Trujillo. Yes.
    Mr. Skeen. When the moon got big, boy, we sure had a lot of 
babies.
    Dr. Trujillo. When I was a resident on the floor that does 
occur.
    Mr. Skeen. It certainly does. You can almost bet on it.
    Dr. Trujillo. Yes.
    Mr. Skeen. Well, that astounds me that diabetes has a 
common denominator, one of the worst health problems that you 
have got. And I do not know whether these monies--where you can 
throw money or put the money, because you have got to have an 
overall program. And you cannot just zero in on a specific 
area, but is not diabetes a problem too with diet?
    Dr. Trujillo. Yes, it is. Diet, exercise. I would say it is 
probably the killing field among the Indian people at the 
present time.
    Mr. Skeen. Then the structure is too. We have always had 
structure on Indian service.
    Dr. Trujillo. Yes.
    Mr. Skeen. That I know. We have got that structure at 
Acoma, the hospital there.
    Dr. Trujillo. Yes, the new hospital.

                       recruitment of physicians

    Mr. Skeen. But you cannot get doctors to stay there?
    Dr. Trujillo. We have had a better ability to have 
physicians recruitment and retention at the ACL hospital the 
past two years, and, in fact, the physicians are----
    Mr. Skeen. Getting better?
    Dr. Trujillo. All positions are filled at the present time.
    Mr. Skeen. Very good. Well, I appreciate the work that you 
have to do, and the tremendous workload that you have to cover. 
And we cannot--I do not think that we could stand, to be honest 
with you, to keep cutting your budgets and then ask you to have 
a better health plan. We have got other things that are drawing 
their attention, like defense and several others. We are having 
to fight the battle of where the money is going to go to. You 
folks have certainly have done a good job, I think, with less 
than top notch accommodations to get it done.

                            native language

    Dr. Trujillo. Well, thank you, Mr. Skeen. I also really 
appreciate your help, and I will be going home, in fact, this 
weekend, Friday, to see my family in Laguna----
    Mr. Skeen. Laguna?
    Dr. Trujillo. And Acoma, yes.
    Mr. Skeen. A beautiful place.
    Dr. Trujillo. Yes.
    Mr. Skeen. Guatsi [speaking native language].
    Dr. Trujillo. Guatsi. Diye [speaking native language].
    Mr. Skeen. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Regula. Guatsi [speaking native language].
    Mr. Skeen. The only words I ever learned in Zuni and all of 
them like Guatsi--is they all have different dialects. So I 
learned at least one word. If we ask them to learn to speak 
English, how would you like to have this hearing in Laguna? 
[Laughter.]
    Again, the native language.
    Mr. Regula. That raises a question in my mind. There are 
something like, what, 500 tribes that each have their own--is 
there a common bond language?
    Dr. Trujillo. English. [Laughter.]
    Mr. Regula. To communicate freely. [Laughter.]
    Other than that. [Laughter.]
    Dr. Trujillo. Well, there is some universal sign language 
also.
    Mr. Regula. Right.
    Dr. Trujillo. However, that goes back to an old problem in 
history. Many of our people, and certainly I heard stories from 
my father, my grandfathers and other relatives and many of the 
people sitting in this room who are of Indian heritage and 
their grandfathers and probably even their mothers and fathers 
were shipped to boarding schools. I know in my father's case, 
they were not allowed to speak any Indian whatsoever. If they 
talked any Indian, they were punished and put in confinement. 
They were whipped, and that is unfortunately some of the 
stories of our people.

                        improved budget request

    Mr. Regula. Mr. Nethercutt.
    Mr. Nethercutt. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Welcome, 
gentlemen.
    Dr. Trujillo. Good morning.
    Mr. Nethercutt. Dr. Trujillo, nice to have you all here. I 
am pleased in looking at the President's budget this year, 
doctor, that Indian Health Service amount budgeted has improved 
the Administration's budget last year. I felt that they were 
underfunding dramatically of the needs of the Indian Health 
Service and the populations that you support. So I am glad that 
there is a more realistic budget request this year, and I 
assume you are also?

                            diabetes funding

    Dr. Trujillo. Yes.
    Mr. Nethercutt. I also appreciate, Dr. Trujillo, your 
involvement with the diabetes, and I came in on the end of Mr. 
Skeen's comments.
    Mr. Skeen. We have been astounded together.
    Mr. Nethercutt. Yes.
    Mr. Skeen. Unbelievable.
    Mr. Nethercutt. It really is a serious problem, and I am 
delighted you are going to be addressing the diabetes caucus in 
the Congress.
    Dr. Trujillo. Yes, I am.
    Mr. Nethercutt. I think we have over 318 members now, and 
it is a bipartisan, nonpartisan approach to a very serious 
disease that affects Native Americans disproportionately; other 
minorities disproportionately to others--to non-minority 
populations, and so it is a very serious issue.
    As you know, the money that was provided for in the 
Balanced Budget Amendment--Balance Budget Act, I should say--
was directed to specific diabetes problems of Native Americans, 
and my sense is that the money is being well spent at this 
point. But I think we are going to need a lot of support and 
some good hard data that verifies the problem among Native 
Americans, the problem of diabetes in order to continue the 
authorization beyond the five years and $30 million a year. So 
I hope that you and your agency will see fit to provide good 
information, good hard data that allows those of us on this 
side of the table to make judgments throughout the Congress as 
to deciding how that money can be best spent and better spent. 
So I hope that that is in your thinking as well that filing 
data and quantifying just what the problem is so we know how to 
address it, and deal with long-term.
    Dr. Trujillo. Yes. We have several prongs in this area. One 
is we have provided some of the diabetes money to each of our 
regions to enhance their data and collection systems 
specifically for diabetes. Other diabetes funds have also gone 
to tribes and their epidemiology centers to collect that 
particular data. We are also working with universities and 
medical centers to also assist in that data collection, and 
also the treatment aspects of diabetes--the treatment outcomes. 
We have also been working with CDC in the diabetes and chronic 
disease programs, too.
    Another is, I think what you pointed out, and I would like 
to stress, is the $30 million that we get is only for a short 
period of time. What happens after that we need to prepare for. 
One way we can approach that is seeing what the expenditures 
are doing, what is the effectiveness of the dollars that go 
into the program and what is the effectiveness of the 
treatment.

            diabetes--coordination with other organizations

    We recently presented to a coalition of national Federal 
programs that were addressing diabetes among their patients. 
There was the Department of Defense, Department of Veterans 
Affairs, other Federal agencies, and the Indian Health Service. 
They heard our presentations and what we are doing. We went 
through our protocols and our present outcomes. They were all 
impressed. In fact, now the Indian Health Service is now being 
looked at as the model program. These other Federal agencies 
will now be looking at their treatment plans, their data 
systems, and their outcomes. Hopefully, other Federal agencies 
will be able to catch up with us.
    Mr. Nethercutt. Well, that is great.
    Mr. Regula. Will the gentleman yield?
    Mr. Nethercutt. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Regula. Does the Indian Health Service coordinate with 
NIH so you are not reinventing the wheel?
    Dr. Trujillo. Yes, we coordinate with the centers at NIH.
    Mr. Regula. You share information and have a common goal?
    Dr. Trujillo. Yes, we have a common goal. There are some 
areas that I think we could certainly strengthen, and through 
the IHS diabetes committee and through Dr. Smith's efforts, and 
others, we are strengthening those areas of communication.
    Mr. Regula. With NIH?
    Dr. Trujillo. Yes. Dr. Smith, would you like add anything 
on NIH and CDC?
    Dr. Smith. Yes, again, the vehicle that we are hoping to 
use is the Joslin Diabetes Center and the proposal that had 
come on retinal diagnoses and using the medicine.
    We are hoping to go to NIH with this particular proposal 
and see if they would not be involved in it, because there is a 
certain research component to it. We are working very well with 
CDC and have for many years with our diabetes. I think this 
will be an avenue for us to get more involved with NIH.
    Mr. Nethercutt. Mr. Skeen, as chairman of the--one of the 
other subcommittees on which I serve, Agriculture 
Appropriations, has emphasized also with the Department of 
Agriculture the need to look at the food distributions 
programs----
    Dr. Trujillo. Yes.
    Mr. Nethercutt. They undertake so that we are not 
exacerbating and increasing the problem of diet and government-
sponsored programs that will enhance diabetes instead of 
curtail it. So I think--I appreciate--it does cross 
subcommittee lines. It crosses----
    Dr. Trujillo. Yes, it sure does.
    Mr. Nethercutt. I assume you all are in support of the 
Indian Health Care Improvement Act reauthorization?
    Dr. Trujillo. Yes.
    Mr. Nethercutt. That is a good vehicle for emphasizing 
diabetes.
    Dr. Trujillo. Yes, we looking at how we can cross into 
other departments and other agencies within the Department to 
have them become more involved and include Indian tribes in 
their particular operating programs and their budget process as 
they develop their resources for the populations that they 
serve.
    In fact, this year in May, the Department invited tribal 
leadership to now begin looking at the Department's budget as a 
whole. That will give Indian tribes the opportunity to look at 
the budgetary process for NIH, CDC, and other agencies within 
the Department and to see how much of those resources will be 
going to Indian programs, such as in diabetes, cardiovascular 
disease or other types of programs.
    Mr. Nethercutt. Your involvement in this diabetes research 
working group report that has just come out that puts a number 
on how we can get a handle on diabetes and try to cure it is 
important as well.

                             JOINT VENTURE

    Let me ask a question if I may about the Joint Venture 
Construction program. Included in the report accompanying last 
year's appropriations bill was a request to address the 
advisability of reinstating a joint venture facilities 
construction program as part of your Fiscal Year 2000 budget 
request. I am wondering if your agency or the Administration 
has complied with this request and whether you could give the 
subcommittee some insight as to the position of the 
Administration relative to this program?
    Dr. Trujillo. I have been very supportive of this 
particular program. The agency has been as well. Unfortunately, 
the resources coming to that particular program have not been 
there. We have a working relationship with a number of tribes 
and have formed a group to look at options they, especially the 
smaller tribes, might use for constructing facilities where 
they can deliver health care. The existing priority list for 
facility construction at the Indian Health Service is extremely 
long. When you add a facility to the bottom of the list it 
takes many years to even construct. The problem comes as to how 
we fund these facilities.

                  STAFFING AND OPERATING OF FACILITIES

    The difficulty for the agency and, I believe, the 
Department and, perhaps, this Committee, is even though we may 
provide funding for a joint venture project, we have to put our 
heads together with tribal leadership as to how to provide 
funding for the continuing operations of that program--
equipment, staffing, the increasing amount of contract health 
services dollars, all the operational dollars--to make that 
program a functional unit. I think there are some options that 
are available. We could look at various levels of staffing, 
equipment, collaborative efforts or outside resources in this 
effort, but I think that that issue needs to be fully discussed 
among all of us and brought to the forefront because joint 
ventures are another avenue for Indian tribes to deliver their 
own health care.
    Mr. Hartz, would you like to add anything on that?
    Mr. Hartz. Thank you. Good morning. With regards to the 
viability of this, not only have we taken another look at, but 
also the tribes that were involved in the earlier stages--a 
year or two ago--have requested IHS to provide technical 
assistance in seeing what could be done to address those things 
that the Federal Government would be responsible for--staffing, 
equipping, and operating costs. We had initially included $15 
million in our request for this joint venture program.
    Picking up on Congressman Dicks' comments about the overall 
need in health facilities, I see this as one of the 
alternatives, without compromising that vast list of 
prioritized projects presenting a way to deal with the needs of 
smaller groups. If there was $15 million available for joint 
venture as an example, that would support approximately $75 
million of actual tribal construction. Because of how the 
authorities of Section 818 are set up, we would have the 
responsibility for equipping, operating and staffing. As Dr. 
Trujillo pointed out, that is the commitment for many years, 
but the capital cost would be solely provided by the tribes.
    Mr. Nethercutt. As long as it, we do not increase lots of, 
you know, staff and bureaucracy and so on. I think that is the 
challenge you probably have.
    Mr. Hartz. And I think that is the piece we need to look 
at. What staffing level would be reasonable. Maybe it is an 
equitable level of staffing at par with that of all the rest of 
the tribes. You know, there are ways. We are willing to look at 
those alternatives.
    Mr. Nethercutt. Thanks for your work, especially on 
diabetes, and the other work that you do to try to help Native 
Americans. Thank you.
    Dr. Trujillo. Well, thank you for your interest and all 
your support in the diabetes and other programs, and also I 
thank you for visiting the urban program in Washington.
    Mr. Nethercutt. I enjoyed that very much.
    Mr. Regula. Mr. Wamp?
    Mr. Wamp. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good morning, men.
    Dr. Trujillo. Good morning.

                       INPATIENT/OUTPATIENT CARE

    Mr. Wamp. I live in the foothills of Appalachia region 
where a whole lot of Cherokees used to live. Some still do, but 
not near as many as should live there, but the bad guys ran 
them off. I am surprised in my rural counties how many little 
counties used to have in-patient hospital facilities and now 
they are having to go to just outpatient clinics, and then they 
are complicated cases are flown or transported to a more major 
urban area where they can go into a full-blown hospital. It 
seems to be a trend in kind of traditional fee-for-service 
health care. And I just wonder what the trend is with your 
service, and what kind of transportation challenges you face 
getting your patients to you or you getting to your patients?
    Dr. Trujillo. In fact, the Indian Health Service when it 
first developed was based upon a regionalized type of health 
care system in which many of the local facilities were more 
ambulatory in nature and referred to smaller hospitals and some 
medical regional centers. We have followed and continue to 
follow that tradition over time and have strengthened that. The 
difficulty comes in several areas. Number one, at the local 
level in having a small hospital, the cost for that particular 
type of care, the recruitment, retention of staff, and all the 
support systems are very expensive. We still have smaller 
hospitals in some locations such as the Dakotas and in the 
southwest, and also some medical referral centers.
    The transportation in the remote areas of the Dakotas, the 
southwest, and on the Navajo reservation, and when you get to 
the Alaska area, it is tremendous. The cost of transporting a 
patient from a small village in Alaska to a larger medical 
program, such as Kotzebue in the far north becomes very 
expensive, and you have to take into account the weather. So as 
our system has developed, we have tried to integrate the 
aspects of local ambulatory care into larger medical referral 
centers. We also have a program called Contract Health Services 
in which we can purchase care outside our system from local 
facilities and clinical providers. We have also seen a shift of 
patients, with an increasing amount of ambulatory care and 
outpatient surgery versus inpatient care. That is also 
occurring within our whole system, too.
    Dr. Smith, you want to add anything on that?
    Dr. Smith. I think we do reflect what is happening in the 
overall medical system as well. And, again, the costs of 
transportation are overwhelming in our system, and the toll 
that it takes on our patients to transport them is very bad, 
because the complexity and severity of their diseases is 
actually greater than the outside population, so transporting 
them worsens their medical conditions and often becomes deadly.

                             EMERGENCY CARE

    Mr. Wamp. What about emergencies--when you have to get to 
them. How is that going and what are your needs there?
    Dr. Trujillo. We have not had a line item in our budget, 
for emergency medical services for some time. We helped fund 
some of the emergency care services that tribes run at the 
present. There is also association--in many localities--with 
the emergency services and transport systems.
    When we have to transport patients by air, medical air 
evac, we also purchase that and, that of course, is quite 
expensive. One of the things that we also try to consider is 
the patient and their family. When an individual gets sick in a 
remote area you are not only looking at the patient, but also 
at how you might accommodate the family accompanying the 
patient.
    In fact, in Alaska, where the regional medical center is in 
Anchorage, Alaska, they have a facility adjacent to the 
hospital where patients who have to be transported to the 
Alaska Native Medical Center can stay, and some of their family 
members can also be there with them.
    So we look at the family as a whole, not just the patient, 
but also those who come to help care for our patients.
    Mr. Hartz. Also within our request, we identified, as Dr. 
Trujillo indicated, our support for the tribal emergency 
services programs. We also identified a half million dollars to 
assist them in ambulance replacements.
    Mr. Wamp. Very good. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

                  REDUCING REGIONAL OFFICES AND COSTS

    Mr. Regula. You have 12 Area Offices in addition to 
headquarters. With the new devices of communication, could you 
not reduce that number?
    Dr. Trujillo. Over the past four or five years, we have 
reduced the number of staff by half in headquarters programs. 
We have reduced, almost by half, the staff in all our regional 
programs. We have maintained each of the Areas Offices as a 
door for tribes to work with us. So when we work with tribes 
and are extensively involved in consultation with tribal 
leadership, the necessity of having available staff and our 
regional directors there to work directly with tribal 
leadership is essential.
    When I talk with tribal leaders in many localities in the 
regions, their emphasis is on making sure that the 
communication and those doors remain open. Therefore we have 
maintained that each of our Area Offices will continue, 
however, with decreased staffing in many localities, and with 
increased efficiency.
    Mr. Regula. So you are recognizing the problem of trying to 
hold down costs?
    Dr. Trujillo. Yes.

                   DENTAL CARE SERVICES AND STAFFING

    Mr. Regula. We have only so many dollars and the health 
needs are enormous. I note that your percent of your population 
getting dental services is 20 percent. Last year, the ADA, the 
American Dental Association, said it was 25 percent only. Why 
would the number of people having access to dental care be 
decreasing?
    Dr. Trujillo. Several areas come into play. Number one is 
the level of funding, and, as we said earlier, the mandatory 
costs that we have not been able to attain for our programs. So 
we have to shift from preventive care to acute services.
    The patient population is growing and there are more 
individuals coming in for care.
    The other problem that we have seen and it has been 
happening over the past several years and is especially acute 
this year is the problem of recruitment and retention of 
dentists in our program. The dental program has the highest 
vacancies ever in the Indian Health Service. We are facing 
major problems in recruitment.
    Mr. Regula. What in the world do people who do not have 
dental care do? How do they deal with a toothache?
    Dr. Trujillo. They have to either wait or go to another 
provider, and they may or may not be able to pay for that 
service. It is a major problem. Dental services is a major 
growing problem, not only within the Indian Health Service, but 
at tribal locations. However, some tribes who have taken over 
their dental program have been able to enhance their program 
because of the flexibility of funds and the availability of 
resources----
    Mr. Regula. Are you using paraprofessionals?
    Dr. Trujillo. Yes, we are. We have paraprofessionals within 
our dental program. We are hopeful that if the budget passes 
and we get funds for our dental program, they would enhance the 
training programs, not only for our dental officers and 
professionals, but also for the paraprofessionals who are in 
that program.

                            PHYSICIANS' PAY

    Mr. Regula. I note that you have a decrease of $4.9 million 
in your request for physician compensation. Does that mean you 
have fewer physicians? That seems kind of contrary to what you 
are telling me.
    Dr. Trujillo. The Physician Comparability Pay was an 
overall decrease to the Department because of the increasing 
amount of pay that was going to physicians in some pay 
categories. Unfortunately, the $4.9 million will have a 
negative impact upon our program. Our physicians pay has not 
increased at the higher rate as other programs in the 
Department have.
    Our physicians are in localities that are essential and 
remote, so decreasing or capping their level pay is going to 
have a tremendous effect. Doctor Smith, do you want to add 
anything on that?
    Dr. Smith. The problem of access we have is so great, and 
this will just compound that along with the inability for us to 
be able to recruit physicians.
    Mr. Regula. So you would like to have us increase that?
    Dr. Smith. Yes.
    Mr. Regula. Even if we have to downsize some of your other 
requests?
    Dr. Trujillo. Well, not necessarily. [Laughter.]
    Mr. Skeen. Deep well.
    Mr. Regula. We are in a tough time this year, believe me, 
because I am trying to meet all the needs, and we understand 
you have them as we evidenced last year by the committee's 
strong support for your program compared to the President's 
request.
    Dr. Trujillo. Yes, you did.
    Mr. Regula. But it may be an even more difficult crisis 
here because of the caps. Mr. Dicks, do you have some 
additional questions?

                      disparities in health status

    Mr. Dicks. Yes, Mr. Chairman, in your statement you said, 
according to a recent study by the Harvard School of Public 
Health and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 
Alaska Indians and Alaska Natives--I mean American Indians and 
Alaska Natives have the lowest life expectancies in this 
country, comparable to sub-Saharan Africa, and the lowest of 
any nation in this hemisphere except Haiti. American Indians, 
Alaska Natives die from alcoholism 9.5 times more often than 
people from all other races; from tuberculosis 6.3 times as 
often; from diabetes 3.5 times; and from injuries 2.7 times as 
often. American Indians, Alaska Natives are dying more often 
and experience disease more widely than other American 
citizens. And then you point out for every 100,000 American 
Indians, Alaska Natives in the IHS service area, there are 74 
physicians. For the U.S. general population, this figure is 
242. That is a very stark picture.
    Dr. Trujillo. Yes, that is.
    Mr. Dicks. And you say that your budget, when you did this 
needs assessment would have to go up to $8 billion from $2.4 
billion in order to be able to adequately meet the 
requirements?
    Dr. Trujillo. It would meet the major priorities of the 
Indian health care program. It would not bring the program up 
to full parity, however.
    Mr. Dicks. A very stark picture.
    Dr. Trujillo. Unfortunately, we have that picture to deal 
with. However, I think Indian tribes, the urban Indian 
programs, and the Indian Health Service staff and leadership 
have done a tremendous job over the past years in alleviating 
much of the problems that have occurred in the past. Much of 
this has been due to public health and preventive services, and 
construction of sewage and sanitation systems and, I think, the 
extreme dedication of individuals.
    When I travel across the country, I am continually amazed 
by the people who are in those field programs. They are not 
there because of the money, but because this is what they want 
to do, and for the patients they see. Because they feel in 
their heart that what they do is essential.
    I traveled to Kotzebue about a year and a half ago, in the 
end of February, beginning of March. I traveled to a small 
village about 150 miles away. Just before I left I was talking 
with the two health aides from that small village who had been 
trained, and who did not have very much equipment. They had a 
small building where they saw patients in two rooms in that 
very remote area. They communicated with the hospital by radio. 
When and if they could. A physician would come in by plane once 
in a while.
    I asked them what they needed, and if we could do anything 
for them. All they said was, ``Just remember us.''

                                chap/chr

    Mr. Dicks. Well, tell me about the community health aides. 
That got cut. I assume that was by OMB. But they have put in a 
$5 million reduction in this program? Could you tell me about 
the program and what the people do?
    Dr. Trujillo. The community health aides in Alaska are 
individuals who are trained and are essentially physician 
extenders from the community. Their allocation of salary and 
other funding comes out of a different category of direct 
services. It is the Community Health Representatives program 
which has been decreased. These are individuals who come from 
the communities and work with their own local tribal 
membership. They assist in the delivery of outreach programs. 
They go into the homes, especially those of the elderly and the 
young. If there is a decrease in funding in this particular 
category, we will have to decrease the number of those 
Community Health Representatives, as well as see a decrease and 
decline of home visits, community outreach programs such as for 
early pregnancy, diabetes programs, elderly care, and other 
services that depend upon the Community Health Representatives. 
Doctor Smith, do you want to add anything on this?
    Dr. Smith. Yes, I would like to. I provided care in both 
rural and urban settings. The CHR is one of the most important 
members of the care team that we have on site. They are members 
of the community. They know what is going on in that community. 
They know who is having problems and who is not long before 
they come into the clinic. I think that a reduction in this 
group of workers would be tragic because of the role they play. 
It is an extremely important role. I know in the past they have 
been touted as being just transporters of patients. Actually in 
1991, 16 percent of their time was involved with 
transportation, and last year only about seven percent of their 
time was involved with transporting patients. And, their 
involvement in transportation is critical often because of the 
condition of the patients. CHRs are qualified to transport some 
of these patients.
    Mr. Dicks. Is this only in Alaska?
    Dr. Smith. No, this is in all of the Indian Health Service.
    Mr. Dicks. This program is found across the whole country?
    Dr. Trujillo. There are two programs. One is the Community 
Health Aides who are in Alaska. They are actually extenders who 
provide direct, hands-on care much like a physician assistant 
in some respects. We also have the nationwide Community Health 
Representative program----
    Mr. Dicks. I see.
    Dr. Trujillo. That Doctor Smith and I were talking about. 
They are the eyes and ears of the health providers in the 
facilities. When I was home and practicing at Acoma Canyoncito-
Laguna Hospital, even though I was from there and knew the 
families individuals, the Community Health Representatives were 
essential in my continuing care of the individuals who I saw.
    Mr. Dicks. Just one final question, Mr. Chairman. How many 
of your doctors or physicians are from the National Health 
Service Corps?
    Dr. Trujillo. We have very few National Health Service 
Corps assignees anymore. The majority are going to urban 
programs outside the Indian Health Service.
    Mr. Dicks. Why is that? Is there some reason for that?
    Dr. Trujillo. There had been a reduction in the National 
Health Service Corps. They are now increasing the numbers, but 
the majority of individuals, even though we have high priority 
sites, are usually assigned to different programs. Doctor 
Smith, do you have anything to add on that area?
    Dr. Smith. I can only reiterate the fact that their program 
had stopped--decreased for a while, so the pipeline dried up 
for us to get physicians from that group. As they increase, we 
may get some in the future but we are not getting them right 
now.
    Mr. Dicks. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

                             chr reduction

    Mr. Regula. I assume the $5 million cut is not your idea?
    Mr. Skeen. Whose idea was it?
    Dr. Trujillo. We had hoped that we would be able to keep 
that $5 million in the CHR program. Both the Public Health 
Nursing and the Community Health Representatives work hand in 
hand.
    Mr. Regula. You are saying this should have a high 
priority?
    Dr. Trujillo. I think both the Public Health Nursing and 
the Community Health Representatives are essential. One is a 
more trained professional, and the other is the eyes and ears 
of that facility and the patients and the nurses. If you do not 
have both, you do not have a strong outreach community public 
health program.
    Mr. Regula. Mr. Keen? Skeen? Oh?
    Mr. Skeen. Skeen is pretty keen today. [Laughter.]
    I think that we have gone into what the problem, and, of 
course, this all hinges on how much funding is coming out of 
this thing.
    Dr. Trujillo. Yes.
    Mr. Skeen. And I hope that we can prevail on rescuing some 
of those programs that you have that are in the process of 
losing their capitalization.
    Dr. Trujillo. Yes. Well, thank you.
    Mr. Skeen. I think it is a tough call. I appreciate it. Let 
me tell you one story today. Non-Indians are always amazed at 
the dialects and so forth. I will get into it with your 
permission. When I was a young engineer in Zuni, I worked with 
the Ramah Navajos as well, and one of the Ramah Navajos wanted 
a dam built for water retention. But I had to talk it over with 
him. So somebody gave me a vague location where it was. And I 
went to this little village or hogan, and I kept looking for 
this Juan Pino, and I could not find him. And the women and 
children would disappear. You know, and I do not blame them. 
But I went on for weeks and weeks trying to get Juan Pino 
pegged down so I could get the specifics on what he wanted and 
where he wanted it and so forth. And so on one of my trips back 
over to the side of the reservation, I stopped a red Ford pick-
up and asked him if he knew where Juan Pino lived. This person 
said, yes. And I said, well, where is his home. And you know 
the Navajos do not point with their fingers, they point with 
their chin. He says, it is two roads back. Well, I said, well, 
that is where I have been going. Well, thank you. And so about 
another week later, I went over there and pulled up there at 
the hogan and here is this red pick-up sitting there. And this 
fellow walked out of the hogan--the same guy. And I said, by 
chance, are you Juan Pino, and he said, yes, I am. And I said, 
well, I have been trying to reach you to sit down and work out 
this dam detail, and why did not you tell me when I talked to 
you the other day. He says, you did not ask me if I was Juan 
Pino. You just asked me where I lived. [Laughter.]
    And I said, I had learned. I have had more fun with that 
story, because I was working my fanny off trying to find this 
guy. Thank you.
    Mr. Regula. Mr. Nethercutt.

                          outreach work of chr

    Mr. Nethercutt. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My staff handed me 
a news report dated Monday, March 22, 1999, Associated Press 
out of Tacoma stating that the number of infant deaths in 
Indian and Alaskan tribes in Washington, Oregon, and Idaho has 
dropped so much they are now on par with the rest of the 
region's population, a study has found. Apparently, a Doctor D. 
Robertson, director of the Northwest Tribal Epidemiology Center 
located at Northwest Portland Indian Health Board said this is 
very good news for Indian country.
    And I assume that part of the reason that deaths of Indian 
babies have declined may have to do with this community health 
representative program such that there is involvement in 
families and discussion about proper care for children and 
greater care given to prevent these kinds of infant deaths. Has 
that got anything to do with it, would you say Doctor Trujillo?
    Dr. Trujillo. I think that is one aspect of it. The other 
is the Community Health Representatives. We have an increasing 
number of teen pregnancies, and the Community Health 
Representatives work with the families and the individual to 
assure that there is continuous care for that high-risk 
pregnancy. The outreach happens. Also, in more remote 
locations, they convey the medications. They also go out to the 
families to see how things are in a home where they may not 
have full sewage, sanitation, and other types of environmental 
services.
    Another factor, I think is just the awareness of the 
necessity of better infant care and early care in pregnancy and 
that the accessibility of clinics is now growing in the 
northwest area. A number of the tribes in that area now have 
their own facilities. We are now working at Wellpinit, 
Washington, on the Spokane reservation in their renovation of 
the clinic to increase access. That is all helpful. Early 
detection and early care of pregnancy problems and early 
referral to other facilities is also important. But the health 
representative is the motor between the blocks that help 
solidify that continuous care throughout the whole region and 
throughout the United States and Alaska.
    Mr. Nethercutt. Well, that is good to know, and I assume 
and believe that the Office of Management and Budget was the 
driving force behind the $5 million reduction; that they 
basically said that you are going to have to make that cut?
    Dr. Trujillo. We were in discussions with the Department 
and with various other individuals as to where to place the 
emphasis in our outreach programs.
    Mr. Nethercutt. For the record, sir, would you kindly 
provide us some evidence about what the consequences would be 
to a $5 million decrease for the community health 
representatives program so that we can--you know, how much 
impact will it have, tribe by tribe, or region by region--
whatever way you are comfortable with so that at least we in 
the subcommittee can have a sense of what that really means to 
the program and the long-term or the short-term consequences of 
that decrease.
    Dr. Trujillo. Yes, we will provide that for the record, 
Area by Area, and also the impact on the programs and the 
services that they provide.
    Mr. Nethercutt. And the overall health of the Native 
American, Indian, population that might be affected somehow by 
that reduction.
    Dr. Trujillo. Yes, we sure will. Thank you, Mr. Nethercutt.
    [The information follows:]

[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

    Mr. Nethercutt. Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Regula. Mr. Moran.

                          dental mobile units

    Mr. Moran. I am sure we are making some progress, but I 
think we still have to see the health care status of Native 
Americans as a scandal and a stain on our nation's soul. Last 
year we funded a--a mobile dentistry program. How is that 
going? Is that improving the dental health care through the 
better outreach?
    Dr. Trujillo. Yes, we have been able to provide an 
increasing amount of services. In addition, we have an ability 
in this year's budget to hopefully get some more dental 
trailers and dental facilities for our program and dental 
staff.
    We still have a long ways to go. Earlier, we spoke of the 
long waits for care for individuals for both acute and 
preventive dental services. We have a major recruitment and 
retention problem among the dental professionals, in fact, we 
have the highest vacancy rate that we have ever known. So we 
see the effect on individuals who cannot attain this care very 
effectively at the present time. Doctor Smith, do you want to 
add anything on dental?
    Dr. Smith. Yes. If you were to come to any of our 
facilities on either the last day of the month or the first day 
of the month, depending on what they have chosen to do, you 
would see people lined up to try to get a dental appointment. 
The way we have to do it is we open up two or three months down 
the way. One month in set aside for dental care limited to 
children and to elders. And even those people have to stand in 
line to get an appointment, and then they wait for that period 
of time. Our mobile units will be very effective in the 
outreach that we can do. If we get the money for them this 
year, we will be able to provide dental care to some of the 
communities that are more than 100 miles from any kind of 
facility that has dental care. So we will be able to place some 
of these in those locations.

                   behavioral related health problems

    Mr. Moran. It seems that most of the health care problems 
of the Native American population are behaviorally induced. In 
some ways it is due to alcoholism, other forms of substance 
abuse, mental health problems--the suicide rate is much too 
high--smoking, very poor diet, and even inadequate physical 
exercise in many cases. One of the problems we have with our 
health care establishment, of course, is that invariably the 
health care is delivered after the fact. Can you tell me what 
efforts we are making to sort of change the culture at least at 
the Indian Health Service in terms of addressing the behavioral 
source of the health problems, a prevention strategy given the 
very high mortality statistics. I saw a presentation last year 
citing mortality statistics in places like the Pine Ridge 
Indian Reservation that were in the 40's. Men were not living 
to 50 years of age on average. The diabetes incidence among 
children is alarming; one out of eight had diabetes. Tell me 
what you are doing to change the health care delivery culture 
so that we address the behavioral problems?
    Dr. Trujillo. You cite some very true problems that we see 
in Indian country. And I certainly see that when I travel--the 
devastating effects of alcoholism, the problems of suicide 
especially among teenagers or young adults, the violence that 
is now occurring. We are seeing a rise in gangs across Indian 
reservations and the subsequent violence. We have seen rising 
rates of family abuse and child abuse. And, all these certainly 
have behavioral roots.
    How we address it is complex. Poor health care is 
associated with poor social and economic status. Education, 
economic opportunities, employment--all that is thrown into the 
milieu of health care problems. We have been trying to work 
with foundations, other agencies within the Department, and 
other Departments across the Federal Government, to see how we 
can address not only the health care issues that the Indian 
Health Service and tribes see, but also, how do we strengthen 
the other factors that feed into this: better schools, economic 
opportunities, and other things.
    When you see young adolescents having no hope, no place to 
go, poor education, poor opportunities, racism and being 
discriminated against, what other choice do they have? That is 
the problem I think many of us see when we go home. Many of our 
families have been devastated by alcoholism or other problems. 
Fortunately, tribal leadership and many of the individuals 
within the tribal programs and the Indian Health Service are 
beginning to address how do we make this change in behavior. I 
see tribal leaders saying, ``we are not going to elect any 
officials who uses alcohol or who does not take an oath of 
sobriety.'' They are no longer smoking. They are beginning to 
get interested in health. They are setting the examples, 
besides the resources that come into the program.
    It is a long road. It will take a long time. But we do have 
to change the behavior, the eating habits, the personal health 
care. Families and individuals have to realize that they 
themselves have control over their own bodies and their health. 
They can set the example for their children and grandchildren. 
We have to do it. Doctor Smith, do you want to add anything to 
that.
    Dr. Smith. A few years ago we were saying prevention did 
not cost anything, but actually we are finding out that 
prevention is very costly. It takes money to prevent things. We 
do have some successes in our communities, those communities 
where tribal leaders have gotten involved and where they start 
looking at the overall infrastructure--the legal structure, the 
economic structure, and the health structure. So it is not all 
bad, but only when the communities get involved and realize the 
situation that has developed, when they start taking charge, 
then we will start to see some things. But prevention, again, 
is the key in all aspects of this, and it is a costly endeavor.

                  lack of socio-economic opportunities

    Mr. Moran. Well, I am glad that you mentioned this. Just a 
final comment, Mr. Chairman, if I could. I am glad you 
mentioned the economic and the social problems are the root 
cause of the behavioral problems. There is a clear correlation 
from the statistics that I have seen. Those tribes that have 
gotten into Indian gaming, that have developed, have economic 
development opportunities and jobs, have educational 
opportunities, et cetera, have seen their health statistics 
improve. There is a direct correlation between the improvement 
of health and the employment opportunities. So most of the 
health problems are not genetically induced. The problem is 
basically the environment in which they have been forced into. 
And those that have broken out and have experienced some higher 
level of affluence, their health problems have improved 
dramatically. I am glad that the health service recognizes that 
and share the same mission objectives as the Bureau of Indian 
Affairs. We to have to raise the economic and social status of 
Native Americans, and then the health care situation will 
improve. I appreciate the effort that you make. Thank you for 
testifying today.
    Dr. Trujillo. Well, thank you.
    Mr. Moran. Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
    Dr. Trujillo. One comment I would like to add. In some of 
the remote locations, the Indian Health Service or the tribal 
facilities that deliver health care are sometimes the major 
facilities for economic involvement and opportunities. Not only 
do we deliver health care, but the jobs for individuals working 
in those facilities, or being associated with them, also have 
ramifications. When you see a decrease or a flux in the 
resources that go to that facility, you are not only talking 
about health care, you are also talking about the economic 
opportunities of individuals and families who work at that 
facility.
    Mr. Moran. Very good. Good point. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. 
Chairman.

              injury prevention--building tribal capacity

    Mr. Regula. I see you have had some success with the injury 
prevention program.
    Dr. Trujillo. Yes, we have.
    Mr. Regula. Is it just a matter of educating and then 
enforcement?
    Dr. Trujillo. Well, we have had a longstanding relationship 
with a number of tribes and some seed money to associate not 
only with Federal programs, but with tribes, States and local 
organizations. This year, we have also included some increases 
for injury prevention, especially in the areas of accidents. 
Mr. Hartz, would you like to add anything in that area?
    Mr. Hartz. I think this is an excellent example of what can 
be done from a public health standpoint in dealing with the 
preventive issue by building capacity at the local level. In 
the years that we have been receiving money for the injury 
prevention program, it has been targeted toward training of 
local people at that level to go back into their communities 
and to also target intervention projects in areas where we see 
the most significant problems associated with injuries. And in 
that effort we have almost a booklet of success stories of what 
local communities have done to deal with problems, whether it 
be pedestrian fatalities or motor vehicle crashes, or dealing 
with roadway and roadside hazards--numerous examples.
    Mr. Regula. Mr. Skeen, any further questions?
    Mr. Skeen. I have nothing, Mr. Chairman.

                               conclusion

    Mr. Regula. Well, thank you very much, gentlemen. We are 
going to have a very difficult time this year, as I have said 
earlier. We will try to be sensitive to your priorities, and 
allocate the resources in the way we can best possibly meet the 
needs. I know that we cannot even come close to overall needs, 
but we will do the best we can with what we have. And if you 
have any additional suggestions, we have a number of questions 
for the record, and if you have additional suggestions on 
priorities, we would be pleased to entertain them.
    Dr. Trujillo. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you 
for all your assistance and your staff's assistance and the 
willingness to work openly with us. It has been a very good 
relationship that we have had with you and your committee.
    Mr. Regula. We recognize that health is primary. As Mr. 
Moran is pointing out, you cannot have a job if you do not have 
health. That is fundamental.
    Mr. Skeen. You cannot do much of anything if you do not 
have health.
    Mr. Regula. That is exactly right. Thank you.
    Dr. Trujillo. Thank you.
    Mr. Regula. The hearing is adjourned.
    Dr. Trujillo. Thank you.
    [Additional committee questions follow:]

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                           W I T N E S S E S

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page
Berry, John......................................................   292
Bowron, Eljay....................................................   306
Casadevall, T.J..................................................     1
Devine, J.F......................................................     1
Eckes, M.E.......................................................     1
Fenn, D.B........................................................     1
Gilbert, D.A.....................................................   153
Gover, Kevin.....................................................   153
Groat, C.G.......................................................     1
Hartz, G.J.......................................................   321
Hirsch, R.M......................................................     1
Karpan, Kathy....................................................   118
Kitsos, T.R......................................................    94
Leahy, P.P.......................................................     1
Leupold, J.L.....................................................     1
Lincoln, M.E.....................................................   321
Manuel, H.A......................................................   153
McDivitt, J.H....................................................   153
McGregor, B.A....................................................     1
Morris, J.S......................................................   153
Ryan, B.J........................................................     1
Smith, Kermit....................................................   321
Thompson, T.M....................................................   153
Trezise, J.D.....................................................1, 153
Trujillo, M.H....................................................   321
Witmer, R.E......................................................     1


                               I N D E X

                              ----------                              

                         U.S. Geological Survey

                                                                   Page
Amphibian Monitoring and Research................................    36
Biographies......................................................  8-19
    Casadevall, Thomas J.........................................     9
    Devine, James F..............................................    12
    Eckes, Martin E..............................................    13
    Fenn, Dennis B...............................................    14
    Groat, Charles G.............................................     8
    Hirsch, Robert M.............................................    15
    Leahy, P. Patrick............................................    16
    Leupold, James L.............................................    17
    McGregor, Bonnie A...........................................    10
    Ryan, Barbara J..............................................    11
    Trezise, John D..............................................    19
    Witmer, Richard E............................................    18
Biological Research/Integrated Science....................70-73, 75, 76
Biological Science Funding.......................................29, 30
Budget Activity..................................................    77
Clean Water Action Plan Funding..................................    29
Climate Change Effects...........................................    25
Community Federal Information Partnership........................31, 32
Consolidation of Facilities......................................    30
Contracting Services.............................................    23
Contracting of Mapping Activities................................    21
Cooperation with Universities....................................    39
Coral Reefs...................................................... 73-75
Disaster Information Network.....................................    27
Dual Use Technology..............................................    80
Earthquake Response Capability...................................    27
Federal Coordination.............................................23, 24
Fixed Cost Increase..............................................    20
Forest Fire Detection............................................39, 40
Fresh Water Research.............................................    24
Funding Biological Information Needs.............................    37
Funding for Science..............................................    38
GAP Analysis.....................................................    36
Gateway to the Future............................................    39
General Budget Issues............................................ 59-62
Geology..........................................................62, 63
Government Performance and Results Act........................... 57-59
Hammer Award for National Atlas..................................    34
Hazards Research.................................................    21
Initiatives with Limited Funding.................................    36
Introductions....................................................     1
Invasive Species.................................................24, 25
Investment in Future Information Delivery........................    28
Livability: Community/Federal Information Partnership............    79
Long-term Data Collection........................................    28
Mapping.......................................................... 68-70
Mapping Cooperation with Defense.................................    37
National Earthquake Network......................................25, 26
National Spatial Data Infrastructure Funding.....................32, 33
National Atlas of the United States of America...................    35
National Cooperative Geologic Mapping............................90, 91
Net Programmatic Change..........................................    20
New Initiatives.................................................. 42-57
Non-Federal and State Partnerships...............................    20
Ogalala Aquifer..................................................    22
Opening Remarks..................................................   1-3
    Opening Remarks..............................................     1
    Budget Highlights............................................     3
    Integrated Science...........................................     2
    Investment in Information....................................     2
    Science Priorities, Department of the Interior...............     3
Outreach.........................................................88, 89
Program Priorities...............................................28, 29
Puget Sound Earthquake Research..................................26, 27
Questions Submitted for the Record............................... 42-92
    From Congressman Kingston.................................... 81-84
    From Congressman Moran....................................... 77-80
    From Congressman Nethercutt.................................. 85-87
    From Congressman Regula......................................88, 89
    From Congressman Taylor...................................... 90-92
    From the Subcommittee........................................ 42-76
Receipts From Product Sales......................................    20
Research on Amphibian Decline....................................81, 82
Research on Striped Bass.........................................83, 84
Science Centers Funding..........................................    30
Science Outreach to Education....................................38, 39
Small Communities................................................85, 86
State Water Resources Research Institutes........................    78
Subcommittee Questions........................................... 42-76
Support for Science..............................................    40
Testimony........................................................   4-7
    Budget Highlights............................................     5
    Budget Restructure...........................................     7
    Highest-Priority Research....................................     4
    Y2K Effort...................................................     7
Tundra to Tropics................................................    75
Vandalism........................................................86, 87
Washington Coast Study...........................................    37
Water Resources Investigations................................... 64-68
Water Resources Research Program.................................21, 22
Water Research Accomplishments...................................    22
Water Resources Research Institutes Program......................91, 92
Water Institutes Evaluation......................................    23
Western Fisheries Research Center................................    31

                      Minerals Management Service

Background.......................................................    94
Committee Questions..............................................   108
Future OMM Challenges and Opportunities..........................   102
Future RMP Challenges and Opportunities..........................    98
Offshore Minerals Management Achievements........................   100
Overview of FY 2000 MMS Budget Request...........................   105
Recent Innovations...............................................    97
Royalty Management Program Achievements..........................    95
Statement of Acting Director Kitsos..............................    94

          Office of Surface Mining Reclamation and Enforcement

Abandoned Mine Lands Trust Fund..................................   125
Appalachian Clean Streams........................................   141
Better Environmental Protection..................................   119
Better Environmental Restoration.................................   118
Better Operations................................................   121
Better Service...................................................   120
Committee Questions..............................................   125
Emergency Program................................................   139
Federal Reclamation Program......................................   141
FY 2000 Budget Request...........................................   122
Government Performance and Results Act...........................   123
Proposed Appropriation Language..................................   124
Small Operators Assistance Program...............................   134
Statement of Director Karpan.....................................   118
State Minimum....................................................   134
United Mine Workers Health Fund..................................   137
Working Capital Fund.............................................   147

                        Bureau of Indian Affairs

BIA-Tribal Relations.............................................   179
Biography:
    Gover, Kevin.................................................   178
Budget Priorities:
    Contract Support.............................................   170
    Law Enforcement..............................................   171
    New Tribes...................................................   170
    School Construction..........................................   169
    Small Tribes.................................................   171
    Trust Management Improvement Project.........................   169
Lac Courte Oreilles School.......................................   179
    Administrative Review........................................   185
    BIA Complicity, Accountability, and Authority...............183-185
    BIA Monitoring...............................................   180
    BIA Plan of Action...........................................   185
    Inspector General's Report...................................   180
    Investment of Federal Funds..................................   183
    National Performance Review..................................   185
    Site Monitoring..............................................   183
    Tribal Contribution..........................................   186
    Use of Funds.................................................   182
NAPA Study.......................................................   187
Opening Statement of Assistant Secretary Kevin Gover............172-177
Questions Submitted for the Record:
    Committee Questions.........................................195-224
    From Congressman Moran.......................................   225
    From Congressman Skeen.......................................   228
School Bonding Initiative........................................   186
School Construction..............................................   194
Self Determination...............................................   186
Tribal Membership................................................   193
Trust Fund Program...............................................   188
    Direct Payment...............................................   190
    Fee for Services.............................................   189
    Fractionation Legislation....................................   192
    Individual Indian Land Holdings..............................   191
    Lease Agreements.............................................   191
    Lease Negotiation............................................   190
    Oklahoma Tribes..............................................   193
    Reservation Lands............................................   192
    Secretarial Priority.........................................   189

           Office of the Special Trustee for American Indians

Biography:
    Thomas M. Thompson...........................................   160
Budget:
    Allocation...................................................   161
    Budget Reductions............................................   168
    Out Year Budget..............................................   168
Direct Payment...................................................   190
Fee for Services.................................................   189
Fractionated:
    Legislation..................................................   192
    Ownership....................................................   162
    Reservation Lands............................................   192
Indian Probate...................................................   164
Individual Indian Land Holding...................................   191
Judgment Process.................................................   162
Lawsuit Settlement...............................................   161
Lease:
    Agreements...................................................   191
    Negotiation..................................................   190
List of Witnesses................................................   153
Office of the Special Trustee....................................   153
Oklahoma Tribes..................................................   193
Opening Statement:
    Thomas M. Thompson...........................................   155
Questions Submitted for the Record...............................   231
    Contempt Ruling..............................................   232
    FTE Requirements.............................................   236
    High Level Implementation Plan...............................   235
    Locating Account Holders.....................................   234
    Land Consolidation...........................................   238
    Project Milestones...........................................   242
    Probate Backlogs.............................................   240
    Records Backlogs.............................................   240
    Special Master...............................................   233
    Status of Lawsuit............................................   232
    System Oversight.............................................   237
    TAAMS........................................................   240
    TFAS Implementation Schedule.................................   237
    Tribal Funds Reconciliation..................................   234
    Users Fees...................................................   234
Records Production...............................................   163
Secretarial Priority.............................................   189
Special Master...................................................   163
Training of Personnel............................................   166
Trust Resources..................................................   166
Trust Fund:
    Investment...................................................   166
    Program......................................................   188
    Use..........................................................   167
Trustee Responsibility...........................................   167

                   National Indian Gaming Commission

Committee Questions..............................................   244

                       Office of Insular Affairs

American Samoa Issues............................................   277
Brown Tree Snake Program.........................................   273
Committee Questions..............................................   256
CNMI Covenant Grants.............................................   262
General..........................................................   256
Prior Service Trust Fund Administration..........................   284
Working Capital Fund.............................................   280

                      DOI Departmental Management

Departmental Salaries and Expenses...............................   296
Hearings and Appeals.............................................   298
Management of Federal Lands for Subsistence Uses.................   299
Statement of Assistant Secretary Berry...........................   292
Working Capital Fund.............................................   300

                      Office of Inspector General

Audit Activities.................................................   308
Conclusion.......................................................   310
Departmental Revenues............................................   310
Fraud Awareness Outreach.........................................   308
Proactive Investigative Initiatives..............................   307
Statement of Inspector General Bowron............................   306

       Natural Resource Damage Assessment and Restoration Program

Committee Questions..............................................   314

                         Indian Health Service

Biography, Trujillo, Michael.....................................   332
Budget:
    Fixed Costs/Program Increases........................334-36, 363-64
    Impacts of 12% Reduction.....................................   336
    Improved Request.............................................   343
    President's Request..................................326-27, 333-34
    Resolution Questions.........................................   334
Committee Questions:
    Program Increases............................................361-63
    Fixed Costs..................................................363-64
    Hospitals and Clinics........................................364-65
    Other Service Programs.......................................355-66
    New Tribes Funding/Equity Issues.............................366-67
    Contract Support Costs.......................................367-88
    Per Capita Spending..........................................   369
    Equity.......................................................369-70
    Staffing of New Facilities...................................370-71
    Dental Health................................................371-72
    Mental Health................................................   372
    Contract Health Services.....................................373-74
    Urban Indians................................................374-76
    Public Health Nursing vs. CHR................................   377
    Area Offices/Administrative Overhead.........................378-79
    Indian Health Facilities Maintenance.........................379-80
    Sanitation/Water and Sewer Facilities........................380-82
    Modular Dental Units.........................................382-83
    Hospital and Clinic Construction.............................383-84
    Joint Venture................................................384-85
    Regional Youth Treatment Centers for Drug/Alcohol Dependency.385-87
    Winnebago Hospital and Pinon Clinic..........................   387
    Talihina Hospital............................................387-89
    Injury Prevention............................................   389
    Equipment and Y2K............................................389-90
    Indian Health Care Improvement Fund..........................   390
    Post-hearing Questions by Congressman Kolbe:
        Pasqua Yaqui HMO.........................................391-92
    Sanitation Deficiency Priority List.........................393-442
Community Health Representatives:
    CHAP/CHR.....................................................350-51
    CHR Reduction...........................................351-52, 377
    Impact of Reduction..........................................354-56
    Outreach Work of CHR.........................................352-53
Contract Support Costs...........................................   328
Dental Care Services and Staffing...........................348, 371-72
Dental Mobile Units.........................................357, 382-83
Diabetes:
    Coordination with Other Organizations........................344-45
    Disease.................................................340-41, 343
    Funding......................................................343-44
Health Care:
    Behavorial Related Health Problems...........................357-58
    Disparities in Health Status....................328-29, 334, 349-50
    Emergency Care...............................................   347
    Facilities, Aging.......................................337-38, 340
    Facilities, BEMAR............................................   339
    Facilities, Staffing and Operating of................345-46, 370-74
    Federal Responsibility for Indian Health Care................   325
    Inpatient/Outpatient Care....................................346-47
    Lack of Socio-Economic Opportunities.........................358-59
    Restoring Access to Health Care..............................327-28
    Update on Shoalwater Indians.................................336-37
Injury Prevention--Building Tribal Capacity............329-30, 359, 389
Introduction.....................................................   324
Joint Venture...............................................345, 384-85
Native Language..................................................   342
Partnership, I/T/U...............................................   325
Physicians:
    Pay..........................................................   349
    Recruitment..................................................   342
Public Health Infrastructure.....................................330-31
Regional Offices and Costs, Reducing of.....................348, 378-79
Statement:
    Prepared.....................................................325-31
    Oral.........................................................333-35
    Secretary Shalala............................................322-23
Witnesses........................................................   321

                                
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